by Tom Gaylord, The Godfather of Airguns™
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Dan Wesson pellet revolver.
This report covers:
• Updates on the Ft. Worth airgun show
• On to the report
• Seating pellets — the unwritten lesson
• After seating, there was improvement
• JSB Exact RS pellets
• Single-action versus double-action
• How fast does it shoot?
• H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets
• How many shots?
• Trigger-pull
• Evaluation so far
Updates on the Ft. Worth airgun show
I have several announcements about the upcoming Ft. Worth airgun show on Saturday, September 6. First, most of the tables in the main hall are reserved. We will now move the overflow into the second hall, which is 15 feet from the main hall. Both buildings are air conditioned.
Airgun collector Larry Hannusch will be displaying his ball reservoir airguns, so bring your camera. Unlike gun shows, this show allows cameras inside the show. There will be filming for TV and photography for print publications, plus filming for the internet all over the show. If that is a problem for anyone, they need to see me when they arrive. There will be a sign at the entry stating that filming and photography will be taking place on the ranges and in the hall.
Larry is also going to bring several Hakim air rifles to sell, for those who are interested in the type. He says these guns are more distressed, which will help with the price, so you may be able to afford this classic after all.
Scott Pilkington, a 10-meter airgun dealer, will be bringing some retired club target rifles. Many are FWB 300s in need of a rebuild and some TLC. RidgeRunner bought 2 of these from Scott and can tell you what to expect.
Umarex said they’ll have a drawing for an airgun at their table. That’s in addition to the three raffle guns and two door prizes I’ve already announced (AirForce Airguns Condor SS, Walther LGV Competition Ultra and Hatsan AT44-10 Long QE in the raffle — and Air Venturi Bronco and Benjamin Trail NP2 as door prizes).
A new big bore bullet maker, Tin Star Bullets, will be selling at the show, along with Seth Rowland (organizer of the Malvern airgun show), who also makes big bore bullets. If you have a big bore and want to bring it to the show, there will be lots of bullets to buy.
Crosman will be demonstrating their new .357-caliber Bulldog big bore air rifle at the show. They’ll be on the 50-yard range most of the day if you want to try it out.
There will be an informal reception at the show hotel on Friday, the evening before the show. I’ll be there to greet all who attend. It’s from 7:00 p.m. until 8:30 p.m.
I’ll also lead a caravan of cars from the hotel out to the show grounds on Friday at 4:00 p.m. If you want to scope out things the day before, this is your chance. There will be no setting up until Saturday morning at 6:30 a.m.
On to the report
I learned a lot about the Dan Wesson pellet revolver in today’s test. I’ll pass along all that I learned because it looks like the manual hasn’t got a clue!
Seating pellets — the unwritten lesson
The manual that says nothing about seating pellets, other than to put them into the steel cartridge noses and attach them to the front of the cartridges. But then I shot the first 6 RWS Hobby pellets and noted that the velocity ranged from a low of 198 f.p.s. to a high of 354 f.p.s. in just 6 shots. That’s a spread of 156 f.p.s. I paused a minimum of 10 seconds between shots, so the spread wasn’t from any cooling. I even had three shots where no pellet came out of the gun! The average velocity for the cartridges loaded this way, and shooting single-action, was 271 f.p.s.
Seating pellets
This huge velocity spread, plus the times when no pellets came out, alerted me to the fact that maybe Hobbys are a bit too large for this gun and maybe they’re sticking in the cartridge noses. So, I inserted them deep into each steel nose with a ballpoint pen. This time the Air Venturi Pellet Seater did not work because it’s too large to enter these steel noses, but a common ballpoint pen worked well. I just laid the cartridge nose-down on my desk, dropped a pellet in the rear and then pushed it as far in as it would go. The desk stopped it perfectly at the end of the steel cartridge nose.
It takes time to load each cartridge this way. If you’re impatient, you’re not going to like this airgun. This process was part of what killed the sales of the Brocock Tandem Air Cartridges — many shooters just didn’t want to spend their time loading cartridges before they then loaded them into the airgun to shoot.
After seating, there was improvement
After deep seating the Hobby pellets, the velocity picked up. The next 6-shot string went from a low of 210 f.p.s, to a high of 321 f.p.s. — not good but better than the first time. The spread was now 111 f.p.s.
While this is an improvement, I felt that RWS Hobby pellets were probably just too fat for these cartridges, and subsequent testing proved me right. So, the Dan Wesson cartridges are sensitive to the size of the pellets, regardless of seating.
JSB Exact RS pellets
While RWS Hobby pellets are very light, they are also too large for these cartridges. JSB Exact RS pellets are slightly heavier, but they were much more consistent in velocity. A 6-shot string fired single-action ranged from a low of 271 f.p.s. to a high of 298 f.p.s. — a spread of only 27 f.p.s. They averaged 286 f.p.s., which is close to the Hobby average without the wild swing in velocity.
Single-action versus double-action
Up to this point in the test, all shots were fired single-action. That means the hammer was cocked and then the trigger was deliberately squeezed. This is the way most revolver shooters shoot their guns, because it’s the most controllable and also the most accurate. But I sensed the Dan Wesson might work better in the double-action mode, when the trigger is pulled through for each shot — no hammer cocking. So, I switched to that mode and got the following results with the JSB Exact RS pellets.
Six shots now averaged 317 f.p.s. — an increase of 31 f.p.s. over single-action. The low was 310 f.p.s. and the high was 325 f.p.s., so the spread was 15 f.p.s. — a decrease of 12 f.p.s. over shooting in the single-action mode. Clearly, the Dan Wesson revolver works best in double-action. And, just as clearly, deep-seating the pellets is essential to consistency. And you want to use pellets that aren’t too wide.
One final observation — at least one reader mentioned that these pellet revolvers were known to produce velocities well below the advertised 425 f.p.s. We’re seeing that in this test. While the velocity is not bad, it is absolutely 100 f.p.s. below the advertised numbers.
How fast does it shoot?
Some people just want to know how absolutely fast the gun will shoot, so I tried it with both RWS HyperMAX pellets and with Crosman SSP Hollowpoints. Both pellets fit the steel cartridge noses very loosely and fell out of the cartridges as I was loading the gun.
The RWS HyperMAX pellets averaged 356 f.p.s. with a low of 304 and a high of 404 f.p.s. That’s a 100 f.p.s. spread.
Crosman SSP Hollowppoints averaged 486 f.p.s. with a low of 474 and a high of 498 f.p.s. I shot both of these lead-free pellets in single-action because, as I mentioned, they were falling out of their cartridge noses. I didn’t want to tie up the gun’s action.
So, no arguments about the gun making the advertised velocity. However with the types of pellets you’re likely to shoot, plan on 100 f.p.s. less.
H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets
The final pellet I tested was the H&N Finale Match Pistol pellet. These fit the steel cartridge noses the best of all. They averaged 311 f.p.s., in single-action, with a low of 296 and a high of 317 f.p.s. In double-action, this pellet averaged 339 f.p.s. with a low of 323 and a high of 344 f.p.s. That made this the fastest lead pellet of the test.
How many shots?
Given those results, I then tested the gun to see how many shots there are per fill. On shot 55, this same pellet was going 300 f.p.s. in SA (it averaged 339 in DA on shot 36). Shot 60 in SA went 293 f.p.s. with this pellet. Shot 70 in SA went 259 f.p.s., and that’s where I stopped. Any slower, and pellets will start to stick in the barrel. A safe bet would be 11 cylinders per CO2 cartridge.
Trigger-pull
The trigger broke at 5 lbs., 14 oz in the single-action mode. That is a single-stage trigger-pull, as well — don’t get confused. The double-action pull is 8 lbs., 6 oz, which is extremely light for a double-action revolver. People pay hundreds of dollars to get a trigger-pull like that on a firearm.
Evaluation so far
I feel that this revolver is not going to appeal to as many shooters as we first thought. It was made by an airsoft manufacturer whose corporate focus is perhaps different than that of Umarex and Crosman — both airgun makers. I didn’t tell you this yet, but the entire barrel moves forward and back under spring pressure to lock the cylinder in position when firing. That may be okay for plastic balls and Hop-Up; but when Anics tried it in a pellet pistol, the accuracy went out the window.
Naturally, I will test the gun for accuracy. But you now see that I’m going to have to shoot it double-action, which isn’t the easiest way to shoot a revolver. I’ll also try it single-action, so we’ll see the best it can do. I still have hopes for the gun, but today’s test was revealing.
B.B.,
The velocity numbers are very, very disappointing. As is the fact you have to shoot it in double action. There are many CO2 pellet pistols that don’t have these problems. I guess I just don’t understand. Maybe you’re right and Dan Wesson just isn’t certain about how to build one of these guns. I was definitely going to buy one of these so I am really disappointed. Oh well, onward and upward. Somewhere else of course. Even of the accuracy is great it’s probably going to be at BB range. Very frustrating. I think I was one of the readers who pointed out the 100fps differential. I was truly hoping this was wrong.
G&G
G&G,
I am also disappointed, but I have to tell folks what I see. There are so many things where the makers missed the mark with this gun. If it is accurate I will still like it, but with that moving barrel I don’t hold a lot of hope.
B.B.
Tom and G&G,
To quote Hank Hill, “Do ya want it done fast, or do ya want it done RIGHT?” I’m joking of course. The proof will be in the pudding, er, accuracy.
My gun also has a very light trigger, and no, I haven’t chronied it, and I haven’t tested it for accuracy yet, although every shot from 25 feet hit the Coke can, and each went through both sides. So mine, at least, shoots hard enough and is accurate enough for my purposes.
It will bevery interesting to read the next installment and see how it does in the hands of a very good revolver shooter at an actual target.
Michael
G & G,
I believe that Dan Wesson would be certain about how to build one of these guns before coming to market.
But neither Dan Wesson nor Dan Wesson II built this gun. I think they’re both rolling over in their graves after seeing their name(s) on a pellet gun.
kevin
kevin,
Not just a pellet gun. THIS pellet gun. Almost anyone will feel some sense of pride if their name is attached to a truly quality product.
G&G
G&G,
When I hold, load, and shoot mine, everything feels solid and of very high build quality and materials. The grip even is much more positive than the one on my BB Dan Wesson.
My neighbor told me that it feels as much like a real gun as his Ruger revolver (don’t know what model that is) but that the trigger is lighter on the Wesson in both SA and DA.
Michael
Michael,
I don’t have this gun but I will certainly take your word for it that it feels like quality. However, when a pistol(revolver) shoots 100fps less than it’s supposed to it is not a quality build. Something is definitely wrong. I do have the BB model and I must admit it feels great but it also deliver’s where it’s supposed to. So I believe the BB gun is high quality. Again, they somehow appear to have screwed up on the build of this pellet model.
See B.B.’s first response to my post at the top…. “there are so many things where the makers missed the mark with this gun.”
G&G
G&G,
The shortcomings Tom has described in the two installments would be problems for many shooters, but not one of the issues is a problem for me. (But of course he is not done yet, so we’ll see if it fails the important test, accuracy.)
1. The rail under the (very good) rear sight is too fragile to mount any sort of red dot or scope. I do not use red dots or scopes on pistols. Not an issue for me.
2. The pistol loads slowly. The process is not difficult or complicated, just slow. I am patient, so that is not a problem for me.
3. Some pellets have skirts so narrow that they fall right through. I do not use pellets that are too small with mine, so again, no problem.
4. Except for the JSBs and the H&Ns, the velocity spread was unacceptable. I have used H&N 4.51 size head pellets, and I have not noticed any vertical stringing at the 25 to 30 feet I’ve been shooting it (at pop cans, mind you) in my backyard, so no problem for me.
5. It shoots below the advertised velocity. How many airguns do NOT? Besides, with the trick pellets that manufacturers use for velocity claims, the gun comes as close to claims as most airguns tested on this blog. Besides, I am not one of those who cares about velocity. Do people expect to hunt with this gun? Do they plan to shoot 20 or more yards? The Diana 27 is a slow-shooter, too; does that make it not good? Velocity is no issue for me. I have a Slavia APP 661 and Ampell Acro that probably shoot under 225 fps and 275 fps, respectively, but they’re fun to shoot, and the Ampell is accurate, too. The Avanti 499 shoots at about 200 fps and is slow to load. It is fun to shoot.
So, to me everything I have experienced and everything Tom has reported are positive or neutral, not negative.
Of course, if neither the JSBs nor H&Ns prove to be accurate, well, that would be the kiss of death for this gun, even for me. Well, PERHAPS the kiss of death — this is a blast to shoot in the backyard with the light DA and quiet report.
I have but have not yet tried the Exact RSes, but I lack the H&Ns in 4.5 or any of the sizes other than 4.51. I would like to try them with the 4.49 and 4.48 head H&N Finale Pistol pellets from a rest at 10 meters in my basement. I’m a lousy shot with handguns, but off-hand I’m popping tin cans with nearly every shot at 25 feet.
I hope it is accurate in Tom’s test, but test results are test results, so we’ll see.
Michael
Hmmm, sounds also like the derivative Colt “Pithon” may suffer from the same malady. (Spelling intentional to describe the “Pithon” that doesn’t look look much like a “Python.”) 😉
Well, I guess if you have to shoot cartridge airguns, maybe this is the way you need to go.
http://www.inovairtech.com
RR,.
Well, that rifle and cartridge was made by the folks who brought us the Tandem Air Cartridge. So we’ll see. But I have seen it shoot and it does seem to be accurate, if low-powered for a big bore.
B.B.
BB
I got the IMC Pioneer 3 training rifle yesterday and it does not shoot that bad, I have not chronyed it yet but it hits my target with a pretty good smack. you are right it is a small gun and I was wondering if you remember about how long/high the front post sight is normally when new as mine is about 1/8 high above bottom of the globe of the sight. I remember you stating that a lot of them got cut down or off completely and I cannot tell if mine has been cut or not, but it seems like it may have been because you have to have the rear sight all the way down in elevation to hit the target and it is difficult to place my head low enough to see the sights correctly.
Also would you have a review of this gun or now where to find a schematic for it. Any help would be appreciated.
It is a good smoker right now at the least.
Buldawg
Is it still burnin’ off oil?
Reb
Yep I don’t know how much it was shot before I got it but the manufacture date on the compression tube is 1986 and it is smoking every shot. I am going to tear it down and clean and lube it, but it shoot pretty good for being a very small gun.
I see one issue that I am going to have do some studying to fix unless BB has a cure and that is instead of barrel droop it has barrel raise. When I took the action out of the stock you can see that the barrel sits at an upwards angle in the receiver assy. That’s why BB has stated in the one review that I found he did on this gun that most front sights have been cut down or off. Not quite sure how to fix that issue yet other than trying to shim the barrel or receiver joint to push the barrel back down.
You got your 953 chronyed yet and did you get the email I sent you with the detailed instructions on how to modify the trigger and remove the hammer bounce portion of the pump handle latch piece.
Getting ready to tear the IMC down and see what can be done about the barrel rise and try to get a stronger spring for it to make it shoot a little faster.
Buldawg
Buldawg,
Thanks for the e-mail! I’ve stumbled across it before but really didn’t wanna get that caught up in it but it’s the incentive I needed to go ahead and get started on it, it’ll take me more than one afternoon to get it all done,I don’t even have a vise to hold the little parts and I’m sure my left ain’t gonna be much help(you shoulda seen me trying to get the pump tube off the receiver!) but I got my batteries on the charger, a couple bits, a couple c-clamps and my dremel. That oughtta keep me busy til the weekend!
Did you see my chrony results? I was disappointed and will be checking everything while I’m in it. Everything is suspect until proven innocent! One thing I noticed was that it didn’t say(or I couldn’t find it ) what is a good length on the sear engagement screw?
Reb
Buldawg,
Well, I had just gotten the bolt block lopped and the Marshall was knockin’ on my door.I almost went to jail today! My little brother came through with $150 to keep me out and I’m even with the city again.SMH
I’ll finish it today but I’m tellin’ ya! They just keep comin’ at me faster than I can catch my breath!
Reb
I have not done this mod on my 853 yet, but I did do it on the 853 I built for my friends buddy when I had to replace the barrel and valve assy.
I believe I used a 3/4 inch long 8/32 thread allen screw so I could adjust it easy with a long allen wrench and started it at about two turns in, but that was awhile back. You just turn the screw until the trigger releases to your likening, you can make it either long or short it just what you like, but it is worth doing over the stock trigger.
It is not as difficult as it appears in the directions once you get into it, but with only one good hand it will be more difficult.
I saw the chrony numbers and those are way low for an 953 or 853 even. It definitely needs some attention so you might as well do it all at once.
I am glad you did not end up in jail today that would not be good.
I was out getting some parts for building the pioneer 3 as mine has a rubber seal instead of leather and the rubber was torn around the lip of the seal. So I went to the auto parts store and got a 7/8″ wheel cylinder kit to use the brake cylinder rubber cup to replace the piston seal with and then clean everything up and shim and top hat the spring to see if I can get 500 fps out of the little plinker.
Will let you know how it turns out,
buldawg
When you sight down the barrel bore from the breech, can you see a bend in the barrel? Or is it straight? That’s usually an easy way to tell.
Vince
I have not gotten to the barrel yet as I am getting the piston seal replaced and shimming the spring and putting a top hat at the front end. The piston seal is rubber so I got a 7/8″ brake wheel cylinder kit to use the rubber cup seal for the piston.
When you say to sight down the barrel do you mean looking thru the bore or along the outside ? I have a granite flat plate to check it with as well as a 2 foot metal straight edge for checking engine blocks for flatness so between the two I should be able to tell if it is the barrel or the joint between the barrel and receiver.
I will know in a little bit.
Buldawg
Down the bore itself. If the barrel is bent to any significant degree, it will become immediately obvious.
I replaced a barrel on a 880 that the bore looked like the shape of a football when looking through it, but only after turning and reseating for 360 degrees, just to see what shooting through a bent barrel was like. No real surprises other than it was still a very accurate barrel.I really did like when it was pointing up,when I seated it there I was dead on at 60 yards!
Reb
Thank You for digging this out Edith!
Vince
I did look down the barrel and it does not look bent to me at all as the bore and rifling look good and straight . I am going to drift the front sight off the barrel so I can lay the flat top side of the base block on my granite table and see if it is visibly bent up and can also measure at different places along the barrel to see if it is bent.
From what I saw with it out of the stock it looks more like the base block of the barrel is to far back in the fork of the receiver which is causing the barrel to point upward from the receiver. I am not quite sure how I will address that issue if that is what it is, I may have to try and shift the ball or chisel point in the correct direction to correct it. I think the easiest if it is the base block to fork fitment is to take to my master welding buddy and have him spot weld a little place on the top edge of the receivers chisel point so that I can file it to get the barrel to sit level in the fork.
I will know more in the AM.
Buldawg
buldawg
I have my personnel piece of granite flat stone at work that nobody else touches like we talked about on the phone the other day.
If that doesn’t show if a barrel is flat I don’t know what will. Well I shouldn’t say that. I use a mirror at home also.
Gunfun
I have used a mirror before myself as glass is pretty flat also, but not as accurate as our ground granite flat stones are by any means.
Buldawg
buldawg
This is true.
GF1,
The hole through the barrel is not necessarily parallel with the outside. I have seen Crosman barrels that were bored almost 1/4-inch off-center. Unless the exterior of a barrel has been lathe-turned to align with the bore, it is not in alignment.
B.B.
BB
That would make things a bit more difficult that’s for sure. If the barrel bore is that far out from being concentric to the outside diameter I would have to say that barrel is trash.
Apparently this link is hard to come by so I’m posting it here for reference( found it on GTA)/blog/2009/5/romanian-spring-rifle-part-1/
Reb
Buldawg,
I have no idea why it didn’t post as a link .I’ll try again
/blog/2009/5/romanian-spring-rifle-part-1/
Reb
Reb,
Hit the return key to put a link on a separate line. I edited your second post and did exactly that. Now, it’s a hotlink.
Edith
Thank you Edith! It just seemed to be happening randomly but maybe I’ll never have to worry about it again. Thanks for the tutorial!
I like hotlinks! Now I’m hungry.
Sorry for the mess here Edith. Could you please fix one of these so it’s usable and delete or whatever the other? I’d like to help Buldawg get into this gun to clean some of the oil outta it.
Reb
Reb
I found that link just a little bit ago, but thanks for sending it to me also. I know it ain’t much of a gun but it is actually fun to shoot and I will try to make it a little better.
Buldawg
I love little cheap guns that can be improved! I pulled this 953 out of a rut in an alley in Abilene.It had fresh tire tracks on it! The pump tube got a little mangled and the top of the piston was chewed up but I got it straightened out enough to stop that. If it had been wood I wouldn’t have even recognized it(probably woulda looked more like a pile of toothpicks!)I do remember respecting it’s Chrony test velocity before I took my vacation at the hospital this April. I gotta get me some Daisy wadcutters.It loves ’em and they’re cheap and light. It also likes the Crosman wc’s so whichever I can get ahold of. Most of what I have now are heavy pellets for my Airmaster and the 36.
I got my 760 and about $100 in trade for helping an older gentleman clean up his property and build a privacy fence, it wouldn’t pump up so he handed it to me and thanked me for taking care of it for him.
Another older neighbor saw me plinkin’ in the back yard one day and brought me a 880 to see if I could fix it and then told me to keep it.It’s got about 2 oz worth of pounded out lead shims to tighten up the butt to receiver connection.My brother heard it one day and fell in love with it so it gotta new home for $30, just pluggin’ along:) !
Rebn
I just think this is a cute little break barrel and it is easy enough for my wife to cock as well as my 8 year old grand son, although he likes his 760 I hopped up for him so it shoots around 750 fps and put an older rifled barrel in it so it is much more accurate then the new ones with a smoothbore barrel.
I have the chamber and piston issues worked out with wheel cylinder piston cup that is the same diameter as the old one only much more robust and should seal much better and with a little spring shimming and stretching it should get close to 500 fps I hope. Then I just have to fix the raised barrel issue and repair the clipped of front sight post.
Buldawg
Buldawg,
If it’s small, light easy to cock and has some decent power then I’d really like it!I picked up a wheel cylinder cup outta my friend Terry’s parking lot the other day thinking that it would come in handy, probably the one that blew on him and we fixed. Are you gonna have to bore that pivot oversize & re- pin or bolt it? Could that be what renders the front sight unusable on them?
Reb
I have not checked into the barrel issue yet so I am not sure if the barrel is bent or the base block and fork are not mating correctly causing the barrel to be angled up in the fork. I am going to get into it more tomorrow
It time for bed right now so talk top you in the AM.
Buldawg
Reb,
Can you see how the link you supplied is all one word along with words and an ending parenthesis? There’s no way the system could infer a link from that combination. I fixed your second attempt. See my reply there.
Edith
buldawg,
I don’t have one of these and don’t know how to get one. Why don’t YOU do us a guest blog? 😉
B.B.
BB
I appreciate the confidence in me by asking me to do a guest blog but I don’t think I would be able to a very good review. I cannot take pictures that look good and don’t have a clue how to due all the editing and posting of the pics and such. plus with my health I cannot always guaranty that I can be able to complete it on any kind of schedule as I have good days and bad days that are not always predictable.
I will respectfully decline at this time, but will keep it on the burner for maybe at another time and gun.
Thanks Buldawg
BB
I have thought about you asking me to do a guest blog on the IMC pioneer 3. if you can tell me more about what is all involved in doing a guest blog I may try to take some pics and put what I have found and the step to fix it together. I guess I am just unsure about the insertion of the pics and how to prepare the whole step by step process in doing a blog. Do I write the text and send you the pics for you to post in the appropriate areas or just how does it all get organized and submitted. And is there a time frame it would have to be done in or can I just write it and take pics for you and Edith to assemble into a orderly blog or is it all on my plate.
Give me some more info on the process and I may consider it ,no promises but I may be willing depending on the actual outcome of the rebuilds success.
private emails or phone let me know, I have already posted my email here for Reb and Gunfun and I am sure Edith can locate it or just let me know and I will give it to you.
Buldawg
buldawg,
Contact us at blogger@pyramydair.com
We will talk you through the process. It doesn’t have to be hard.
B.B.
BB
You got any fixes for barrel rise in that little IMC I bought because the barrel is at an upward angle compared to the receiver. Is there any simple way to fix that issue.
Buldawg
B.B. actually did a blog on barrel bending. When it’s necessary and how to do it.
/blog//?s=barrel+bending&search=Search
Reb
Reb
I have to do some more checking but looking at the receiver and barrel it looks like the barrel is straight in the base block, but the joint between the base block and fork of the receiver is worn or has had the metal of the receiver in the fork area deformed to allow the barrel to point at an upward angle.
I am going to take it apart so I can lay the barrel on my granite flat stone and check it for being bent as well as get a better look at the receiver fork area. It may be the barrel bent but it looks more like wear ion the base block to fork area.
I will no more when I get tit apart and let you know.
Did you get my email with the instructions on modifying your trigger on the 953,
Buldawg
Buldawg,
Since all my notes were shredded by puppies while I was in the hospitalI’ll have to start from scratch so;Powerline 953
7.4gr Daisy pointed -432fps
Crosman7.4 WC-430fps
8.18 match wadcutter-399
9.8 Win Roundnose-330fps
It looks like I need to check my old work while I’m in there too!
Reb
Some day I’ll get around to rechecking… My notes when I first got the chronograph shows my US Shooting Team Daisy 953 (this was a fundraiser model sold in the early 80s — a 953 receiver/barrel with the BB magazine blocked shut [953s back then were dual-ammo, single-shot pellet/repeater BB], with the stock and sights from an 853) shows
450fps using 8.3gr RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle pellets. My 717 pistol with the same pellet did 376fps, and the IZH/Baikal MP46m put out 438fps.
Oh… if it matters: 220 feet above mean sea level; I was in the higher end of Sunnyvale CA back then. I’m now around 750 feet in Michigan
Wulfraed,
Speaking of reissues of previous models I read recently in Air Hobbyist magazine that Daisy is planning to do a very limited reissue of the Daisy Model 25. That would be a fun one to have.
G&G
Do not know if this is the limited production or not, but it is on PA over here /product/daisy-model-25-pump-action-bb-gun?m=2057 under 50 bucks.
I recall as a youngster, about 10 years old, having one in the early 60’s that I shot till the trigger would no longer hold, as you moved the slide back out to the muzzle it would fire, sometimes 2 BB’s at a time, guess I should order it for old times sake.
Wish I still had mine — even if it was a late 60s model.
{I was the wimp in the family — my father showed me the “Spittin’ Image” BB gun my brother was getting for Christmas; and then when I proved I could cock it, scrambled to find a BB gun for me… Same thing happened a few years earlier when my brother [I’m over a year older] received a bicycle while I was still on a push scooter}
Reb,
I was out at the range. Thanks for posting this link.
B.B.
You’re very welcome Sir!
With a 4500 PSI fill it should have a good bit of power. I would think it could also stand to have a longer barrel myself. Something in the 32″ to 36″ range with the higher fill pressure just might be the ticket for it.
The important thing is accuracy. “What good is 500+FPE if you can’t hit what you are shooting at?”
RR,
You know better than that! the air pressure has very little to do with the power. It is the volume that crates power. How much air can be fit into one of those cartridges? That is the max output — I don’t care if it’s 6000 psi.
B.B.
At the higher pressure you have more air in the same volume. You will have more force acting on the projectile when that volume is released. That is also why I would want a longer barrel to give that force more time to act on the projectile.
I would like to play with one for a little bit, but I would never own one. One day I may end up with a big bore, but hopefully it will be something like a Leige. Something that would look good hanging on a log house wall, be fun to pull down once in a while and play with and still be quite capable of filling the pot.
Two thumbs down for the product,two thumbs up for your honesty.Goes to show all when you review a product even if its sold here you won’t be pressured to butter it up just because PA carries it.So people can trust what they read by you on these reviews.You just saved some from allot of disappoint.What a shame from the photo its a fine looking pistol.
Steve,
This gun sold out quickly at Pyramyd AIR. It already has 5 customer reviews that give it an overall rating of 5 out of 5 stars. I read the reports, and even the one with the lowest number of stars raves about how fabulous this gun is. I wonder if our test gun may be defective in some way.
Edith
Edith,That was kinda my thoughts to because its been heavily advertised on PA for some time now along with as you say good reviews.So that many can’t be that wrong or there standards are not up to par and I’m sure it’s not the later.I can’t see people putting up with all the quirks this gun has and it still get five stars so something must be wrong with this one piece.I’m sure it well get a second chance,other guns have gotten that here when these type of red flags have rose.
Isn’t just possible that those people simply had different expectations?
Honestly, I did not expect high velocities or even that great of accuracy and as such am still considering one of these. Just for something fun to pop off a few rounds in the basement after work.
Edith and Steve,
One of those reviews is by me, and I have shot five CO2 carts’ worth of pellets through it (300 shots or so), and it has become one of my current favorites. If a four incher comes out, I’ll jump on it.
Michael
Edith,
As I have written here before, I have read several articles on other sites about this gun that said they were all experiencing the low velocities B.B. got. Therefore, I don’t think it’s your gun. Unfortunately.
G&G
I’d been regretting buying the bb version once I found out about this gun, but now, not so much.
Any idea why there’s a difference between DA and SA? It’s the same spring pushing that hammer forward regardless of which method is used.
DD,
This happens with all SA/DA guns. But usually it’s SA that is the most powerful. It has to do with how far the hammer travels on the shot.
B.B.
But, guys, come on… are we comparing the pellet-firing version to the previously tested BB version expecting the very same velocity levels? Really? And what about the difference in projectile weight? Wouldn’t it be expected that the rifling also demand its share of the energy as opposed to the smooth barrel version?
I am not disappointed at all with the velocities achieved in these tests. And in spite of the moving barrel, I still hope to see better accuracy results in the pellet version than the BB version. Maybe the cartridges are sensitive to pellet seating, but still…
I think we will see another case of accuracy redemption.
Fred_BR,
I hope you are right!
B.B.
Fred_BR,
In my opinion, when the velocity is down around 300fps the gun isn’t going to be much fun to shoot for any reason. Besides, there are many CO2 pellet pistols that get much higher velocity with much shorter barrels. That being the case, I just don’t understand why this one should get such low velocities with the same type power plant and a 6″ barrel. It just doesn’t add up.
G&G
The power plant in this thing was probably designed for air soft and the manufacturer thought to expand the customer base without a total redesign. By just changing the cartridge and barrel it now shoots pellets instead of plastic BBs.
Power is not that big a thing with me. Accuracy however is paramount. I seriously doubt it will have near the precision of my Izzy.
It has two other strikes against it with me. One is it uses CO2. The temperatures when this thing will likely give the best performance, I find uncomfortable. Also, although in more recent years it is less of a hassle, a CO2 supply can be a bit of a hindrance.
A third strike for me is one of the primary reasons many will buy this in the first place. It looks like a firearm. Besides the obvious issues raised by such mimicry, my experience indicates that the more an airgun looks like a firearm, the more it’s performance suffers.
I have the airsoft version of the Dan Wesson and really enjoy shooting it. I got the airsoft version because I was not so much interested in power or extreme accuracy but in the experience of handling the DW through the replica.
Wish someone made a SAA airsoft replica!
Or a Remington New Army with quick change cylinders! They could make the cylinders outta die cast and they would feel awesome!
Hey reb, got the reply about the pellets. How are the accuracy in guns that like em? And do they fit tighter then cros.pointed, do you know?
I really don’t know much about them, a friend of mine found them in his new truck and gave them to me. They appear to be graphite coated, when I looked them up PA said weight was 7.4 grain I ran a few across the chrony in my 953 but the battery on my dot sight was dead, then I put a few through the QB-36 but didn’t really test ’em. About 200 left outta 250. I didn’t really know if you were serious or not. But if you want ’em let me know. Buldawg just sent me a spring to get my QB-36 goin’ again,I’ll see when I could get ’em to ya.
Reb
RifleDNA,
Lookie here what I found for you! http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=436707308
I don’t expect it to be hard to get.And you’d have tinkerin’ parts to start a Frankenstien with.
Reb
Looks like it might shoot a trifle low. I wonder if the BB might not just roll out… Would the Chrony read that? Or just classify yhe shot as a “drool?”
Looks like I’d enjoy the bb version better since that’s all I can get anyway. But I’m curious about something. If I swap out the bb shells for pellet shells will that work in the bb version?
B.B,
I don’t know who to ask except, you. I saw an air rifle from TELL model 220 on the website, and did a little more investigation. I found from the Blue Book of Gun Values that TELL was an airgun manufacturer in Germany founded by Oskar Will in 1844 and ceased operations in the late 1950s.
If this is the case, why are there still so many brand new TELL air rifles for sale?
Thanks
Joe,
For the same reason that there are about a thousand fake Strad violins for each genuine one. People reuse names.
B.B.
BB, so far this one is a big let down for me. If accuracy goes the way I think it will, why would one want the extra time it takes to load this revolver. It looks like the Dan Wesson BB revolver may end up being more accurate. Wouldn’t that be odd. I’ve lost hope already in this one, but I’ll still sit in stands and watch it till the end of the review. Even though it’s not what you wanted to report and not what we wanted to hear, the info. you provide is priceless. If everything was just the truth and not just fluff, choices would be so much easier. Thanks, Bradly
Bradly,
I have played with the Brocock cartridges, so I know how labor-intensive they are. I was hoping for better results in performance from this gun, but if it turns out to be accurate, that will correct a lot.
B.B.
I don’t like the idea of the barrel moving. Can’t be good.
And if anybody could shoot a pistol with a 5 to 8 lbs. trigger it would be BB. So I’m interested still to see the accuracy of the gun.
Gunfun
I just got my 2240 together with the end cap drilled the complete length and threaded in 3/8×24 so that the adjuster can be backed way off, and actually with it that way you can put the end cap on without the spring in or be able to change springs without removing the end cap. Then installed the ebay spring and turned the spring guide in until it was flush with the back of the end cap and I am able to cock it ok now.
But when pumping to 3k it blew the seal between the valve and hi-pac, so it is coming back apart to replace the rubber seal with a fiber type seal that will not deform or be forced out by the high pressure at the joint between the hi-pac and the valve.
I am not a happy camper right now as I really do not feel that the hi-pac people did any real world testing and development of this product before releasing it to the public. I am committed to making it work and be durable and reliable, I just fell for the 210 bucks I paid for two kits that I should not have to go back behind them and reengineer it to work as they claimed it to should work. Great quality parts just very poor testing and development practices.
See reply to BB at bottom of page.
buldawg
I’ve never been clear on the distinction between Dan Wesson and Smith & Wesson. I take it that the same name is a coincidence since the Smith &Wesson company is much older than Dan Wesson.
Thanks for the support on my move. This is really the pits. Duskwight you have set a high standard to match. At least, I have been extremely careful with the guns, ammo, and reloading powder. I’m also taking care to have a suitcase of vital things to keep me going. As for the rest of it… I cannot believe the amount of stuff that I have stored away. It positively seems to be multiplying. BUT, thanks to Pyramidair and my extensive online purchases, I also have a never-ending supply of cardboard boxes. It will go down to the wire when the truck comes tomorrow. I’ll just tell them to pack the new and smaller place solid with the cardboard boxes to fit them in. We will make use of the vertical. I expect that for weeks I will be living in a cardboard wilderness until I get everything sorted out. I will also be occupied in cleaning out the old place so that my nasty manager gets as little of my security deposit as possible. There wasn’t active abuse of the apartment although my cardboard insulation shows more signs of ricochets than I had realized. But none of them damaged my apartment. In any case, there was no abuse, but there was kind of a benign neglect. So, I’m going to sail in with my vacuum cleaner, powerful chemicals, and Spetsnatz shovel and throwing knife for the accumulations in tight corners. Amazing what uses you can find for these things. (By the way, Duskwight, I haven’t forgotten your triggers and will work on them as soon as I can.)
In spite of all, I still have plans for the future. It was only recently that I realized that my two bedrooms in my new place have no ceiling lights. The light switches are roads to nowhere. But here is my chance to set up my new 5 yard range to my satisfaction. The ceiling light in told place was always unsatisfactory. B.B. noted that you want good illumination on your target and that was always lacking. I will digress here to note a critical role played by the old lighting in my shooting career. So, there I was having newly ordered my very first firearm, a Savage police sniper rifle (now discontinued) that remains one of my favorite guns. I go to the gun store to pick up the rifle only to find the place shuttered with a note that it has gone out of business with no contact info. When I got back home, I severely depressed myself by investigating my legal options over the internet. Then, to make myself feel better I went up to my airgun range. But after a few shots, there was an avalanche of plaster and the ceiling light fell down and was hanging by its wiring–or guts as they appeared to me. When I reported this to the blog, B.B. acknowledged that it was indeed a bad day. Sometimes validation like this makes all the difference. 🙂
Anyway, having survived all that, I’m now poised to really get some decent lighting. The obvious course is to get floor lamps, but here I could use some advice from our technical expertise. The first question is how powerful a floor lamp can I expect to get? The local Ace Hardware has some that take 150W bulbs. Is that about the limit? I’m also told that you can use lower bulbs but not higher because that could cause a short and even a fire. That in turn would impact my arsenal… Also, what is the deal with new bulbs that look like coils instead of the traditional bulbs? Can I interchange the old bulbs with the new style or is that another fire hazard?
By initial plan was to beam the floor lamps directly at the target, but then I realized that will expose the bulbs to damage from ricochets. Does anyone else have this problem? I suppose, borrowing from photography, that I could turn the lamp at an angle, bouncing the light of an adjacent wall. Does anyone know the absorption effect of an off-white wall? 🙂 Maybe I can use two floor lamps.
Matt
Matt,
Dan Wesson was a descendant of the S&W clan.
B.B.
I believe the new bulbs with coils you mentioned are compact fluorescent. I’ve done a good amount of shooting in my shop with florescent lighting and I don’t care for it. Fluorescent light has a thick wave length it affects my sight picture with open sights. And I agree with B.B. about lighting the target bright and shooting from dimmer light 100%.
Check your wall sockets… The place I’m eventually supposed to move into had the sockets on the switch side of the wall wired so that the top half was controlled by the wall switch, the bottom half was always powered. The concept being that one could plug in something like a torchiere or table lamp and control it from the wall. {While the apartment I had in CA had the entire wall outlet controlled by the wall switch}
Most common lamp fixtures have a bakelite type plastic for the bulb socket; these can’t withstand the heat of large incandescent bulbs. A well-stocked photography store (or maybe even a home supply store) may carry ceramic stand-offs — you screw them into the plastic socket, and then screw a photo-flood bulb into the ceramic. Photo-floods run between 200 and 500 Watt. A cheap route is to find some clamp-on reflector shop-lights, fit a ceramic stand-off, and a photo-flood bulb. The size of the bulb will probably make the reflector of minimal use. To protect against back-splatter you may need to fit some sort of shield to the reflectors — long skinny bolts through holes drilled in the reflector brim and attached to a circle of plexiglass positioned a few inches away from the bulb front.
Beyond that you’ll be looking at formal photo lamps with diffusers [aim the lamp at the target, the diffuser snapped to the front should act as the shield] or silver lined umbrellas [aim the light at the shooter, umbrella bounces it to target]. Note that you’ll likely need fairly good lighting a shooting position too or the glare from the photo-lamp will be a problem (light will pass through — in my case — a white reflective umbrella with a BLACK cover; see the glow at http://home.earthlink.net/~baron.wulfraed/mugshots.htm#pointers and that is with a camera flash illuminating the scene!); that is a 600W Quartz-halogen photo-lamp (QH “projection” bulbs are much smaller than cheaper photo-floods; the diffuser I didn’t use that day snaps to the reflector leaving an air gap for cooling).
Compact fluorescents, in common household form, are not full spectrum; they have a distinct peak in the green, with just enough peaks in red&blue to give the impression of white (more blue gives a “daylight” CFL). The advantage is that they commonly consume 1/3 the power for the same light output… So one /could/ fit a large one into a socket rated for 150W incandescent… But they also get rather large once you exceed the “60-75W equivalent” — A 75W equivalent is the size of a 100-150W incandescent. My Torchiere is maxed out with a 150W halogen incandescent — and bounced off a white ceiling is too dim for comfortable reading (which is why the Torchiere has a reading lamp rated for a 13W CFL [no rating for incandescent, equivalent is around a 60W])
I do have ONE photo lamp CFL bulb (supposedly fuller spectrum, but I’ve not tested it) . It’s an 85W (not equivalent) CFL — the equivalent would be around a 250W photo-flood. From tip to base it is 11″ long, the CFL coil is 4″ in diameter and 6″ long; the base with the ballast is 4″ and has air vents and a 1″ standoff gap between the part with the bulb and the part that has the screw-in base. Not cheap — I think I paid around $40 for the bulb.
Matt,
Waiting 🙂
And good luck with all that moving and repairing stuff.
duskwight
Tom,
Youtube is chock full of instructions for a couple mods to get the Airsoft and BB versions of this revolver well over 500 fps.
Michael
BB, Several years ago I bought the spring powered airsoft version of the Mauser 98K. It used the cartridge system like the Dan Wesson. It did not work well (many failures to feed from the mag. and to extract and eject them when it did ) It seemed like I was either loading the cartridges, searching for them when they did eject, or clearing jams. I returned this rifle . I have several military .22 cal trainers (including 2 dsm 34,s and a Paatz) and I would love to have an airsoft replica that I could shoot in my tv room during commercials. In my opinion, the cartridge system is too labor intensive and expensive for pellet guns. Ed
Tom,
The H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets come with head sizes in 4.48, 4.49, 4.5, and 4.51. Which ones did you use?
Thanks,
Michael
Michael,
They are 4.50mm.
B.B.
B.B.
I just checked my Dan Wesson 6 inch BB revolver and discovered that its barrel is also spring-loaded and moves forward and back to allow the cylinder to rotate and still maintain contact with the shells. Like some others I was disappointed to read about the extra effort required to seat the pellets. I’m not going to buy one no matter how good the accuracy may be. If the manufacturer and ASG want to sell me on a Dan Wesson pellet revolver, it needs to be redesigned so the pellets are inserted into the back end of the shells rather than into the nose-cap. I also have a question about how to determine if the pellet diameter is too large or too small to fit the cartridge, apart from trial and error? Except for H&N, most pellet packages do not report the exact pellet diameter on the packaging.
Charles,
Trial and error is the only way to do it, because some pellet skirts are very wide but also quite thin and will fit a chamber well, while others are not as wide, but are thick and do not deform easily. The only want to know is the try them.
B.B.
Edith,
Somehow I just lost a reply to Kevin about his bent barrel examination comment to Buldawg that I felt was important enough to type but can’t find it. Could you please check the spam folder for it ? About an 880 barrel.
Thanks
Reb
buldawg,
Regardless of why your gun shoots high, bending the barrel will fix it.
B.B.
BB
I am not sure that the barrel is bent yet at this point and once I drift the rear sight off the base block where I can lay it on my flat plate to be sure I will know if it is bent of the base block to fork area is the issue, just a visual inspection of the barrel by looking down the bore or looking at it from the side it does not appear to be bent. it looks more like the base block is closing past the horizontal plane of the action tube like the ball and chisel are worn.
Like I said I will know more when I get the rear sight off.
Right now I am still working out the issues with my 2240 hi-pac conversion to be able to go to 3k psi and be able to cock it against the hammer spring. I thought I had it all done with modifying the adjustable hammer spring cap for more travel of the spring guide so I can get it to cock now but when I was pumping it up to 3k it blew the seal between the valve and hi-pac cylinder. I may not have had the cylinder tight enough for the 3K pressure as it held fine with 2k in it , so I loosened the set screws on the barrel bands to remove the cylinder and inspect the seal. It looked ok and appeared to still be in place although I could not see real good with it down inside the tube, I put the cylinder back in with oil on the hi-pac tip and tightened it up till it did not turn any more by hand which was about 3/4 of a turn farther than it was originally, but it still leaks. It is going to come back apart to replace the black rubber seal from hi-pac with a fiber washer type gasket so that it can be tightened against a hard seal material that will not be deformed or forced out by the high pressure.
I don’t feel that hi-pac did all their homework and proper research and development on this product before releasing it to the public. For the high price that they are getting for it I should not have to go back and replace components or redesign the item to work as they stated it did. You could not even cock the hammer with the black spring in the gun with the stock end cap. I will get it to work as I want/expect it to, but I may be to much of a perfectionist also, but they stated it would work with 2k or 3k psi and it did good on 2k but was unusable at 3k which leads me to believe that it was not even tested at 3k pressure.
I am happy with the idea and air cylinder components and quality, but the overall kit as being sold as a plug and play item is grossly overstated. For someone with little to no mechanical or technical experience this kit would not perform as stated and would likely cause much frustration and dissatisfaction from a non tech savvy individual.
Just my thoughts
Buldaswg
buldawg
I totally like the idea that you can take the spring out without taking the end cap out with the mod you just did. That just eliminated having to take the scope off to try a different spring.
So you did put the black seal that goes in the valve that came with the kit then. You know I was wondering if that black seal was to hard. I wonder if the factory seal just may work to 3000 psi. Maybe because its softer it will conform to the end of the hi-pac better. You don’t think that when you drilled out the end of the hi-pac had anything to do with it maybe.
I still have the factory seal in mine I guess I could try to go to 3000 with it and see what happens. I do still have both black seals that came with my hi-pac kits that I can put in the gun if it blows. The gun I got know will only be filled to 2000 psi. anyway. A different story though when I build that .25 cal. version of the 2240 though. That one is going to be filled to 3000 psi.
Kind of sounds like the 60c to me. That sure is a pain in the butt trying to get that gun’s valve working right. I guess thats just part of what happen’s when something is used a different way than its designed.
And the Hatsan is doing one holer’s with the barrel band clamp not supporting the barrel like we talked about yesterday on the phone. The barrel is floating now. Now the gun is finally performing like my synthetic stock Marauder’s. I’m happy now.
Gunfun
Yes it is a nice feature that you can change the springs without removing anything else. my power adjuster on the 2289 is the same way and that’s what made me drill the cap on the 2240s the same way. I can still degass with a t-handle allen wrench.
The black seal is in the valve and I only drilled the end of the hi-pac out by 1/32″ in dia so there is still
3/32 in surface area to seal with so it is not that being the issue. I may not have had the cylinder tight enough for 3K because I had just screwed it in pretty snug but not gorilla tight, so when it blew it may have cut the seal. I took the cylinder out and looked at the seal and it looked ok but it is down in the 2240 tube far enough that I cannot get a real good look ( need borescope ) so it has to come back apart to replace it any way.
While I am in there doing that I am going to find a composite fiber washer that will fit there instead of rubber so the cylinder can be screwed tight against it without any chance of it blowing out or being cut by over tightening the cylinder.
Yea it has rained on and off here today and was just about the same kind of day here as you had there with it getting to 99 degrees and a heat index of over 100, but never did rain yesterday.
I checked my hatsan barrel and you were right there are 2 set screws on the left side that hold the barrel in ( I had my 60C on my mind and got confused ) and it does move a little in the band, I have not measured with dial indicator yet but I will and most likely secure it with either a set screw at the top or possibly three ( one at top and one on either side) so it cannot move at all I just wish it was a metal band instead of plastic.
Glad you have got your hatsan shooting good and are happy with it. I thought I had my 2240 all done and was going to tune for fps this morning because I was up at 6 am finishing up the end caps and the forearm rear brackets and had it all together at 8 and was filling to 3k when the seal blew and it just made my so mad I had to just put it down for awhile and regroup.
I am going to take it apart now and get it fixed right now, it just makes me mad when a company does not do their research properly before they sell it to the public. I am going to call tomorrow and talk to them about the issues I have had and see what they have to say.
Buldawg
buldawg
From shooting today the barrel band was the whole problem with my Hatsan.
Like we were talking yesterday. When I put the indicator on my Hatsan barrel it was moving a total of .015″. That’s .0075″ side to side.
I was able to use a higher fill pressure and I tried the clips again and I’m getting 30 good shots now. So more improvement with the gun.
Don’t you just love working through this stuff.
I should say the whole barrel and band would move when I would grab the stock of the gun like I was telling you yesterday. Definitely was making problems.
Gunfun
Yep the tinkering is half the fun of doing the projects and I am going to check my barrel and see just how much it moves with a dial indicator. My problem is whether to secure the barrel in the band or cut the band like you did, the dilemma with me is your gun is the QE model and has the shroud and mine is not a QE and has no shroud so which route would be better for my gun.
Yours improved by removing the band around the barrel and mine may as well, but if it does not then as we talked yesterday can a new band be easily acquired from hatsan or would I have to send the gun back just to have a band put back on it.
I think I will be making two calls tomorrow, one to hi-pac and one to hatsan and see what I end up with for info on the two separate issues.
So what do you make of buying a new buddy bottle with a gauge that you cannot trust and was it the 90 ci bottle for 400 bucks. I don’t know about you, but for me to put out that kind of money and get something with an inaccurate gauge on it I would not be happy as is the case with the hi-pac system.
I guess that is why I am stuck in the past to some extent with material items that I choose to buy and own, because the quality and passion put into items made 30 years ago and what is made today is at the opposite ends of the spectrum that I have lost faith in most new products being built with any real concern for what the end consumer actually receives for their hard earned dollar. Give me a 1970 or earlier product versus and brand new one and I will pick the 70 model every time because I know it was at least built and made by some one that gave a darn about what they made and how they made it with pride and integrity in every thing they did.
Now its just go to work to get that check and no real concern for the quality or importance of what they actually do that has an impact on the end consumer or user.
That’s why my toys are all mostly pre 80s vintage items and work as good as brand new items and most better than new items.
Buldawg
That’s what shoulda been done instead of cutting the sight down.
Buldawg, is your pivot pin hole round? If not and it’s egg shaped you know it needs to be matched to an oversize pin or bolt & nut(I prefer a threaded 2 piece pin design to limit drift) and adjust the barrel to match the sights.That’s about as simple as I can come up with.
Nothing’s perfect but it’ll work well and be pretty easy. Good luck! We’ll be here for moral support and maybe an idea or 2.
Reb
Reb
The barrel pivot hole does not appear to be egg shaped either that is why I am leaning toward the ball and chisel stop being worn or just never actually right to start with because BB said in his review that most of those guns had their front sight pins clipped off and that would indicate a issue with the ball and chisel fitment for keeping the barrel level with the receiver.
After I get my 2240 working I will get back on the pioneer 3 and start my repairs/review for it. I will not say any more as I am going to be like BB and make you wait for the good stuff.
Buldawg
BB and all.
Had a interesting thing happen yesterday when I was shooting my .177 and .25 cal. synthetic stock Marauders and my Hatsan QE.
I shot all three guns and it was time to fill them up. I just got another Benjamin buddy bottle like the other one that I have had for a few years now.
I filled up my .25 Mrod first by the gauge on the bottle like I always do. Then I did the .177 Mrod the same. But this time when I was setting the gun down. I looked at the gauge on the gun. It was buried in the red.
To make a long story short. I hooked my original bottle up to the .25 then the .177 Mrod. Listen to this. The gauge on my original bottle was showing 400 psi. higher.
So basically my new bottles gauge is 400 psi. different than the old bottles gauge. I shot the guns down to low fill again and filled them with the new bottle and stopped the fill 400 psi. less and looked at the gauge on the guns and they were setting in there normal place. I double checked with the old bottle and it was dead on to what I was filling the guns to.
So from now on I can say that you better double check your tank gauges also if you get a new one. I don’t know what bottle’s gauge is correct. But I do know that I have all my fill pressures on my gun established off of the old tank. And that’s whats producing the best shots with the guns. So all other fill devices will be based off of the original tanks gauge from now on with me.
GF1,
I have told people for years that small gauges can be off by a lot. Now you have to help me spread the word.
B.B.
B.B.,
Is there anyone that you know of who will calibrate gauges on fill devices?
Reb
Reb,
These gauges are cheap throwaways. You don’t calibrate them — you throw them away if they cause problems.
A good digital gauge that will tell you close to the actual pressure will cost $300-500. That’s what is needed if a person wants to know the real pressure. That’s why people learn their gauges’ quirks and live with them.
B.B.
Of course I would never spend money on something so frivolous.I was asking for persons here who are self proclaimed anals.The gauge we used to measure air pressure on the locomotives were required to be calibrated every 365 days and cost over $100 and that was only 150psi max. Don’t throw any away, send ’em to me!
Reb
Reb,
These gauges cost about a dollar each (wholesale) and are sealed units. Fixing one would cost 50-100 times as much as a new gauge.
B.B.
OK
BB
So are you saying the liquid filled gauges that come on the hand pumps are not accurate to say plus or minus 100 psi either way. If so then why even included a gauge if it can be off by 4 or 500 psi, that’s like handing someone a grenade with the pin pulled and saying it will explode in five minutes give or take ten minutes.
We are talking about HPA that at 4 to 500 psi off can be a grenade and cause the same damage as one.
If the buddy bottle that Gunfun bought that was probably 400 bucks has a guage on it that is off by 400 psi then he just paid 400 bucks for a grenade that does not have a set time for when it will explode.
Buldawg
buldawg
That’s exactly what I was worried about when I topped off my new bottle at the end of the day shooting yesterday.
You would think the ones on the bottle would be accurate.
Gunfun
Yea I don’t know about you but I would be sending it back and asking them to inspect and verify that the replacement bottles gauge was accurate to with in at least 100 psi plus or minus and if not then they would refund my money.
It just makes me wonder if the bottle itself is actually safe at the 4500 psi also, I mean I like living on the edge and taking risks, but those risks are with things that I have verified are capable of standing up to the risks I am taking with them and are by my choice.
Yes for the money that the bottle cost the gauge should be accurate, there is just no real quality control anymore. Its all about the bottom line in profits and production quotas.
buldawg
buldawg
I will reply below.
buldawg I missed this.
My hand pumps that I had in the past did not have liquid filled gauges. What brand hand pump do you have?
Gunfun
My hand pump is the one that came with my 60C from Flying dragon so it is a Chinese brand but it does have a liquid filled gauge on it not that it makes it any better than a non liquid filled gauge.
So I don’t know which ones to trust until they can be checked against a calibrated gauge. if I still worked at Harley I could send mine to Milwaukee to be checked because the torque wrenches and any other type of measuring equipment we used had to be calibrated every year and we sent all of them to Milwaukee to be checked and calibrated.
Buldawg
buldawg,
Liquid-filled pressure gauges are not as cheap as the gauges I have been talking about. Yeas they are more accurate, but can still be off by 100 psi.
There is so much over-engineering built into these tanks that they can deal with excess pressure. But you should follow the gauge that you trust. Certainly don’t exceed it!
B.B.
BB
I can understand that the gauges the small gauges on the guns and paintball size tanks to be off by a good bit as you are correct in that they are a dollar wholesale so you can’t expect excellent accuracy.
It is also good to know that the liquid filled gauges are accurate within 100 psi plus or minus I just figured that the gauge on a high dollar HPA tank would be of a quality that is equivalent to the liquid filled one that come on the HPA pumps. I do understand that the tanks are built to exceed the stated working pressure by 2 or 3 times the rating, it would seem that when dealing with something that can create a dangerous situation so easily that the manufacture would at least put a gauge that is closer than 400 to 500 psi off of the actual pressure.
Then Gunfun and I discussed the point that which one of the gauges on his two, bottles was actually correct or closer to being correct, the new one or the old one.
The only sure way to know would be to find a location that has calibrated gauges that could be used to check and verify the actual pressure’s in the bottles.
Buldawg
BB
I was just relating it to the ones that came on the guns. I thought the gauges on the tanks would of been more accurate. It didn’t cross my mind it would be on the bottles also.
I’m sure glad I saw that on my guns though. And whats funny is the gauge on the guns is pretty close to what my gauge is on the original bottle I have.
And last night I was filling my new bottle back up with the shoe box and I was trying to decide if I should go to the full 4500 psi fill or if I should stop 400 psi early. I did stop 400 psi early. I just figured it would be safer that way from here on out.
buldawg
About the new bottle I got. Here’s the trick question.
Which bottle has the correct reading the new one or the old one.
I would of never thought about my old bottle reading different than the exact same new bottle. I knew the gauges on the guns would have variation in their readings but I thought the bottles would have better gauges than the guns.
This is another thing that makes me wonder about the new bottle verses the old. I have made replies several times in the past that I was glad my guns were accepting low fills with the tune that was on them. I was happy that I didn’t have to use to much air.
Maybe now my new bottle really has the correct reading on the gauge. Maybe my old bottles was filling the guns to a higher pressure than I thought and giving a lower reading on the gauge.
You see what I mean. If I bought both bottles at the same time. Which one should be the one I send back?
Gunfun
I did not even look at it like that but you are right which one is correct.
Do you have anything at work that uses HPA with a calibrated gauge on it that you could use to check your gauges on your tank.
Does your shoebox have a gauge on it that is of a higher quality than on the bottles or do you have a hand pump you can compare the readings on your bottles to that gauge. Do you know any volunteer firefighters or fire extinguisher business owner or welding supply house, those places all would have high priced and calibrated gauge’s on their fill equipment that you could use to compare the bottles against.
I got my 2240 apart and the black seal was blown out on the side of the valve and cylinder interface and cut. That is why removing the cylinder and then reinstalling and tightening it more did no good and I could not see it well enough to see it blown out. I have found some hard fiber washers that are the right ID but to big on the OPD, I will go, to the hardware store tomorrow to see if I can find a faucet or sink fiber washer closer to the right size on the OD. If not I will make an arbor for the washers I have and cut them to the right OD and use them because the rubber no matter how hard unless it has cord or woven fiber in it will blow out under that much pressure. If you tighten the cylinder to much you will cut the rubber and not enough and it blows out, so it needs to be fiber or delrin like crosman uses for its valve seats. That is what I am going to try and find, I also have some RC car shock delrin valves that fit over the shock shaft that I may try to turn to the right size and use them because then it could be tightened until it does bot turn and the delrin will not cut or blow out.
I would try to find somewhere with a calibrated gauge that you can use to compare your bottles gauges to so you will know which one is correct or if either one is as they both could be off some. That makes me wonder if my hand pump gauge is off enough that when I was topping off my 68ci bottle to 4500 psi and the 5K burst disc kept blowing if I was actually going up close to the 5K of the burst disc. I can take my bottle to my fire extinguisher buddy and have it checked with his equipment’s gauge to see if the gauge on the bottle is correct. I have it filled to 4k on my hand pumps gauge and it shows about 41 or 4200 psi on the cheap gauge on the bottle.
So that is the million dollar question which if either gauge is correct or if they are not which one is closest to the correct pressure.
Crosman is much easier to work on than Daisy.
Buldawg
buldawg
All our high pressure hydraulic gauges at work are liquid filled. And alot of the better gauges for race cars now use liquid filled gauges. But yes we have calibration stickers on every plug gauge, indicator, calipers, mikes, comparators, cmm’s and so on. Have you heard of QS9000? Thats the standard we use at work. Basically anything that measures a part or something that is made in my case. But no absolutely nothing that is a standard for a high pressure gauge.
I know when I was getting my nitrous bottles filled that one of my buddies worked at a shop that worked on fire extinguisher bottles and such and filled them. They had a pit that I believe if I remember right was filled with water that the tested the bottles in for their service dates. Nitrous, oxygen, HPA and other types of bottles were tested there. I’m guessing that the bottle was filled to a certain pressure while it is in the pit. I think its called hydrostatic testing. I may be calling it the wrong thing. But I would say that would be the most accurate test of the bottle. But as far as the gauge goes I don’t know.
And let me know how that new seal works out your talking about for the hi-pac. I will be going 3000 psi. pretty soon on a .25 cal. version so I will be interested to see what you come up with.
Gunfun
Yes Harley also went by the ISO 9000 standards and I believe that in 2005 or 06 that it was upgraded to ISO 9001 standards which in the manufacturing environment such as Harley not only includes anything that measures or regulates must be calibrated every 365 days but also states that every procedure or process is documented and standardized through out the whole company so that every thing is done exactly the same at every facility whether it is in house or a outside supplier.
It is also so that the same process or procedure can be reproduced by any other entity that the International Standards Organization choses to instruct do duplicate the process or procedure for the purpose of verifying and determining the compliance of said standards.
Hydrostatic testing is exactly what you stated in that the bottle is filled to a specified pressure and then submerged for a length of timer to check for leaks. There is also a VIP inspection that is merely removing the valve from bottle and doing a visual inspection (VIP). Then in the case of my old scuba tank that was made in 1976 because it was made before I believe 1989 also had to have a Visual Eddy test done on it as well as the hydrostatic and VIP test, the visual Eddy is basically a x-ray test of the tank to check for microscopic crack in the metal of the tank and mine passed and is good till 2019.
I had a rough day today and did not get up till 2 PM, but went out to the hardware store and found some delrin washer that are 1/16 inch thick by 3/8′ in OD and .140″ ID that look like the same as the valve seat on a crosman valve. the way the Seal pocket on the 2240s valve is rolled over does not allow the delrin washer to be worked into place like you can with the rubber ones. So I am trying to decide if I want to try and straighten the rolled in portion of the valve pocket or cut the washer down to fit in the pocket as it is. I am also thinking of drilling two holes thru the tube 180 degrees apart on either side of the tube and into the rear half of the valve to secure it tin the tube like you were doing on your 60C, because I just don’t really trust the one little screw on the bottom of the valve to hold it in place when I tighten the hi-pac tube in place to seal on the delrin seal. I an also thinking of cutting two flats on the part of the hi-pac tube that is threaded into the 2240s tube to be able to put a wrench on the lip of the hi-pac tube right above the threads that go into the 2240s tube so I can tighten more than hand tight. So it is going to be a day or so of researching and designing what I want to do in the final refinements of the project.
I did not get a chance to call hi-pac or hatsan today either, but will try tomorrow.
Buldawg
buldawg
Yes that is what we use as our standards at work. The ole brain wasn’t fully engaged.
And we have used water ultra sound at work on various things to check for internal cracks that cant be seen on the outside.
One thing to remember about the 2240 valve it does not have the side holes in it like the Discovery valve. So if you do make the 2 side holes in the main tube you will have to do some work with the valve also.
Here is a trick we use at work on air and hydraulic cylinders when we rebuild them. We have a over head hoist that moves up and down the length of the shop that’s used for lifting material and equipment for the machines. When we have the woven cloth lifting straps get out dated we take and save the smaller ones that are about the width of a belt that you would use for your pants. We cut a piece of it off. The length of the piece depends how big the diameter of the tube is. Then wrap it around the tube and have a inch or so over hang to put vise grips on. Then just tighten or loosen the tube. It kind of works like those old strap oil filter wrenches.
The reason I say do it that way with the strap is if you mill some wrench flats on the hi-pac you just may weaken something in the wrong place.
I will be waiting to hear what you think.
Gunfun
The ISO 9001 is just that so that you and me would have to do things exactly the same to meet the standard.
On the 2240 I was going to drill hole thru tube and into the valve and thread the valve to install allen screws in from the outside to hold valve in place more securely.
I had thought of using a strap wrench to tighten the tube but did not know if it would tighten it enough to make a good seal. I was only going to make just enough of a flat to be able to get wrench to get decent grip but I will try strap wrench first.
I am going to take the valve apart and straighten the rolled edge of the front of the valve where the seals sit on a piece of drill rod clamped in a vice and tapping the brass on the drill rod to straighten it out to just enough to fit the delrin washer in it then just stake it in 2 places 180 apart to hold washer in place for assembly, then drill the tube and valve to secure it in the tube and see how tight I can get it with strap wrench.
I just want to have to put it back together once and be done with it if you know what I mean.
Tell me what you think.
Buldawg
buldawg
Sounds all good to me. The only thing that I would worry about is making the wrench flats on the hi-pac. Remember safety first. 🙂
Gunfun
I am thinking about safety first always, so I just need to see if I can get it tight enough with a strap wrench first before making the flats. Also I would only be removing at most .050″ from either side of the raised lip right ay the portion that threads into the gun tube just enough to get a crescent wrench on.
I emailed hatsan today as they do not have a phone number posted and got back a response that all parts are available for their guns and gave me a link for their ordering and schematics info. I inquired about a second barrel band and they stated that I must have a newer model as their engineers found that the two bands were not necessary and therefore removed one of them. They are 9.95 + shipping.
When you cut the top half of yours off did it have an o-ring in the middle of it that kept the barrel centered in the band. The schematic shows the band and an o-ring around the barrel and the air cylinder inside if the band and also a hex nut at the bottom where it fits in stock. they give separate item numbers for each of those in the schematic but do not state if the band comes with them as an assembly or if you need to order all the items seperately. the links are below.
http://www.hatsanusa.com/parts/
http://www.hatsanusa.com/warranty-repair/customer-service-form/
Buldawg
buldawg
Thanks for the link and I have already been to their website.
No o-ring in my barrel band. And I can’t remember right now if mine is hex were it goes into the stock. I thought mine was square. I will check some more stuff out on the Hatsan site when I get home tonight.
Buisy tonight. Fuzes blowing every where tonight I guess because of the heat or something.
The hydrostatic testing that I’m familiar with is NOT a test for leaks. Not only is the bottle submerged, but is is also filled with fluid rather than air. What is measured is, when the inner contents are pressurized, the tank expands some — measured by the rise of the water the tank was submerged in. Then when the pressure is released, the bottle should shrink back to near original size — if it doesn’t (ie, the rise in water level doesn’t fall enough) the elasticity of the tank is gone and it is close to rupturing.
Gunfun
I did not know they also filled the tank with liquid to check for expansion as that make sense for testing the tanks expansion, but would it not expand the same with air as it would with liquid in the tank. I would think that the tank would be tested for expansion with whatever is was designed to be filled with in use as in Air/CO2/Nitrogen/Oxygen etc.
I can confirm with my fire extinguisher buddy as he did all the test on my scuba tank.
I will let you go, you guys ain’t got breakers by now.
Buldawg
buldawg
That was Wufraed that was talking about the hydrostatic testing. Then Vince corrected us all.
And we do have breakers but in the machines cabinet we have 110 and 440 volt fuses and also the small buss fuzes that look like the ones they use to use in cars. Most of the production machines out on the floor have PC’s in them. And some of the board’s have fuses that blow.
Gunfun
Thanks for correcting me as I let my mind get ahead of my eyes. I just assumed it was from you and therefore replied to you.
I see where Vince did set us all straight on what and how it is done so ouir tanks don’t go boom when filled. I am just glad my 76 scuba tank passed all three tests so, it is good till 2019.
I have got my seal issue on the 2240 fixed,. I found some 1/16 ” gasket paper and made a press that is used with a vise that cut the ID and OD at the same time and makes the gasket the exact same size as the original orange seal. the gasket paper is a heavy stiff composite material the I have had for years when I had to make a gasket for something. It is a little stiff to work into the pocket on the valve but it fit very tight and can be tightened as tight as you can get it and will not blow out. I have not installed the valve yet and actually checked it for leaks but I am highly confident that it is the best route to take and will seal very well if tightened enough which should be possible with a strap wrench.
I have made four, two as backup and was going to make you six for your guns so you will have one for each and a backup as well.
I will get them made tomorrow and sent out to you so you will have them when you start your 25 cal build. I used a threaded wood anchor like you would use to hold two pieces together with a machine screw and the same thing I used as a top hat for the valve spring in my 60C, then a piece of 3/8 brass tubing cut the same height as the threaded part of the anchor and used one of the 1/16 ” thick by 3/8″ OD and .170″ ID plastic washer to act as a center guide for the inner anchor ID and the 3/8″ brass tube OD, then place the gasket paper in the vice with the homemade gasket cutting die and tighten vise until it cuts the gaskets OD and ID at the same time making a perfect round gasket that is the same as the orange rubber gasket only much more durable and able to withstand much greater compression loads with out squeezing out from under the hi-pac end of the cylinder.
I will text you a pic of the homemade gasket press and the gasket I made.
later
Buldawg
buldawg
We have gasket makers at work is I guess what you call them but works basically the same as you made. So thats cool you gotb your own custom one now.
And I got your text and looked at the pictures you sent and replied to you. But thanks I sure will try one of the seals you made. And remember I only have one 2240 conversion right now that has the 23 inch Disco barrel on it. I sold the other one that had the 60c barrel a while back remember. And I’m going to start with a brand new 2240 to make the .25 cal. one out of. So no hurry for you to send me the seals. And 2 would probably be enough I think. One for the .25 and a backup for it. The 2240 I have with the Disco barrel is going to stay 2000 psi.
And didn’t know if you seen but PA has the 10% off + free shipping deal going on right now. Perfect timing this time for me after selling the Monsoon. 🙂
Gunfun
I knew you sold your monsoon, but did not know you sold the 60C barreled one awhile back.
So ok if all you want is two seals consider it done. the little gasket press does work pretty good , I just kept thinking and trying to come up with something that I would not have to do ant real modifying to the valve. I think I am still going to screw the valve to the tube with two screw externally on either side of the tube just for extra insurance.
I still will send you the seals tomorrow and yes I saw the PA sale. just down on fund as I just went to Gander Mountain in Gadsden today to get the powder and 45 cal bullets for my black powder gun so I can shoot it soon.
Also, watching another break barrel on gun broker, I have been bitten by the ease of just cocking and shooting and nobody can have just one.LOL.
Buldawg
buldawg ok thanks. I will be waiting for the seals.
And the 60c barreled 2240 went with a couple other guns and that’s how I got the Hatsan QE.
Gunfun
The seals are in the mail, just let me know when you get them and what you think.
Buldawg
buldawg
Good deal. Thanks. And I will let you know when I get them.
Hydrostatic testing is none of the above. The vessel is pressure tested with water, NOT air or any other gas.
Why? Because water is virtually incompressible, therefore a tank full of water at 10,000psig has very little potential energy. If the vessel fails, there is a quick (and tiny) spurt of water and the pressure drops very rapidly to nothing.
A vessel full of high-pressure compressed gas, on the other hand, turns into a bomb or a rocket if it fails.
A good analogy: you can compress an airgun spring to 200lbs, and you can also compress a solid steel bar to 200 lbs. But which one is more dangerous when it is suddenly released?
Vince
Thanks for correcting all of us as I was not real sure how it was done. Although I would still think that the water would hold quite a bit of energy at 10,000 psi because that’s how a water jet metal cutting machine works by using high pressure water through a small orifice such as a crack or pin hole in a tank, although I do not know what the pressure that the water jet uses other than it is very high.
I do understand the anology of a spring compressed the same as a steel bar in that the spring does have much more stored energy than the bar as I have dealt with coil spring suspension on car for year and seen a few springs go flying thru the air and walls. Myself I always have a chain wrapped around the spring and a control arm or some other part of the suspension so the spring can only go, so far if it comes loose unexpectedly.
Still have not got to check that barrel yet for being straight.
Buldaswg
Wulfraed
Sorry that I replied to Gunfun response to your post another instance of my mind getting ahead of my eyes and not reading the bottom to see who the reply was from. But I see that Vince corrected all of us on exactly what and how hydrostatic testing is done.
learn something everyday. I just knew it was done to make sure the tank doe not go BOOM
Buldawg