Hatsan Flashpup QE.
This report covers:
- The looks
- It’s a bargain
- Walnut stock
- Description
- Silencer
- Flashpup-silencer
- Fill
- Trigger
- Summary
Today we begin looking at the Hatsan Flashpup QE with walnut stock. It comes in .177. .22 and .25. It is powerful so of course most buyers went with .25 caliber, followed by a few .22s that would have been my choice. Perhaps one in a hundred bought the .177. Being an avowed contrarian, BB decided to look at the .177.
The looks
The Flashpup is a love/hate airgun as far as appearance goes. BB doesn’t like bullpups of any style so he was prepared to be a hater until he picked it up the first time. It’s lighter than it looks and it feels — oh, how it pains me to say this — JUST RIGHT! Yep, this Flashpup feels exactly how it should feel for an air rifle. Now I just hope that feeling transforms into performance!
It’s a bargain
Hatsan has always tried to hold down the prices of their airguns but frankly I don’t know how they manage to sell this rifle for under $400. Had it existed back in 2006 the Benjamin Discovery would never have been necessary. But maybe that’s like saying if the 1964-1/2 Mustang had been available in 1929 nobody would have bought the Model A.
Walnut stock
In a final burst of contrarian stubbornness, BB asked for the Flashpup in a walnut stock! It also comes in a synthetic stock that I usually go for, but the walnut stock was only $20 more and I wanted to try it. The last time I made such a bold move was with the Air Arms S510XS with Laminate Stock and that little puppy took up permanent residence at Casa BB. Perhaps I do this as a defense mechanism?
Now, Turkish walnut is often gorgeous — so beautiful that it’s almost edible. And Hatsan knows how to buy wood. But the walnut on this Flashpup is more of the fence post variety. The grain is dead straight and stained on the darker side of neutral. The only checkering is a reverse pattern on both sides of the pistol grip. The pistol grip is somewhat flat on both sides with a flared bottom. It feels great.
I keep picking this thing up! Hatsan is gonna have a restraining order filed against me. Every time I pick it up it feels light and perfect. Oh, please don’t also be hyper-accurate! BB’s becoming a hoarder of airguns.
Description
The Flashpup with walnut stock weighs 6.1 pounds (7 pounds in synthetic). See, I told you it felt light! In the .177 I’m testing it is a 14-shot repeater. In .22 the mag holds 12 and in .25 it holds 10.
The non-wood parts of the rifle are metal. Yes, even the trigger blade. The finish is an even matte with the steel and aluminum matching very well.
There is a softer rubber buttpad that grips your clothes when the rifle is mounted. And did I mention that it’s lightweight and feels just right?
The barrel is 19.4 inches long, which seems long for a rifle that’s only 32 inches overall, but that is the beauty of a bullpup, whose action is back at the shooter’s shoulder. In centerfire firearms this places the face too close to where 50,000+ psi pressures are developed in the opinion of many shooters, but with an air rifle that runs at 2900 psi, who cares?
The Flashpup is bolt action. It comes to you with a cool soft rubber knob over the end of the bolt and BB thought for a few moments that it might be part of the bolt. But no, it’s just a protector.
Two circular magazines and a single-shot adaptor come with the rifle, and I will test it both ways. Oh, and I just picked up the rifle again. Did I mention how light it is and that it fits me just right?
Sights
There are no open sights on the Flashpup. The receiver has a raised Picatinny scope rail with 11mm dovetails on top. The cheekpiece also adjusts up and down to align your sighting eye with the scope.
This rifle is so lightweight that it screams for a smaller scope. Come on, Leapers! Please bring out your Integrix line!
Silencer
The barrel ends with a silencer that’s permanently built in. The muzzle cap is threaded for an adaptor that will accept a DonnyFL silencer, but at present there is confusion regarding the legality of external silencers that attach to airguns. Not that airguns can’t have silencers; they can and do. But if a silencer can also be attached to a firearm and reduce the muzzle report by even one decibel, it’s considered a firearm silencer and must be serial numbered as a firearm and registered with the federal government as a silencer.
The Flashpup doesn’t exactly have baffles, but those holes in the side of the can do the same thing.
People call them moderators, lead dust collectors and decibel reduction devices in hopes the ATF won’t notice, but those guys are more aware of what’s going on than most shooters. I will test the Flashpup’s muzzle report for you exactly as the rifle comes from the factory.
Fill
The Flashpup has a 2900 psi fill pressure. YES! Hatsan gets it. You don’t need to fill to 3,600 psi and higher to get velocity. Design the valve properly and you get great power at this pressure level.
How-so-very-ever — a fill PROBE??? Shades of the 1980s! And, if it has to be a probe, why not a Foster connection on the other end? At least there is a synthetic plug in the fill port to keep it clean between fills.
Really? No Foster connector AND I have to install the o-rings?
It’s easy enough to do.
The manual tells you there need to be o-rings on the probe (Section VII — Quick Fill Nozzle O-Rings Replacement), but nowhere does it mention you putting them on to begin with. Guys, I used to work at AirForce Airguns as the techie and I know the calls that must be coming in from this. You’ll have a 5-minute conversation before you realize the owner hasn’t installed the o-rings on the probe. Hatsan devotes an entire page of the manual to loading and installing the circular magazine. How about two sentences on this?
Pyramyd AIR says to expect 35 shots per fill for the .177, with the .22 and .25 getting more. Hatsan says to expect more like 48. Guys, BB doesn’t need any more than 35 shots on a fill! Of course this will be tested for you.
Trigger
There are two things that I need to focus on with regards to the trigger. First, this is a bullpup, which means the trigger blade is separated several inches from the sear. That can introduce some slop in the trigger pull, so it’s item number one. Second, this is a Quattro trigger. I have yet to see a Quattro trigger that I felt was light, smooth and crisp. That’s item number two.
The two-stage trigger is adjustable for pull weight, length of travel of stage one and for the weight of stage one. I plan to spend some time adjusting this trigger so I can make a full report.
However — I just couldn’t wait. I cocked the rifle and squeezed the trigger. This may well be the first Quattro trigger I have felt that actually felt good! And did I mention that the rifle is light and feels great? Enable, enable…
Summary
Let’s see; what have I forgotten? Oh yeah, the Flashpup in the walnut stock is lightweight and feels great. We gonna have some fun with this one and BB needs to start storing his airguns on the ceiling!
Tom,
I can practically see it rusting overnight from the drool coming out! Still this needs to come off the shoulder for you too chick it for every shot doesn’t it? It sort of defeats the purpose of having a magazine because you to reposition for every shot. Can you also measure the cocking effort in Part 2?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
I will try.
BB
Tom,
I have had great accuracy out of my .177 flashpup with 10gr JSB Hades and 13gr Monsters. Many have great results with CHPs. Mine isn’t picky up to 25yds with most of the usual suspects. Nielsen 10gr slugs also perform well in the flashpup. I haven’t tried any other slugs, however.
ProfSteelToe,
Thanks, I will keep that in mind.
BB
Interesting airgun, Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier).
Bullpups looks are a bit like Marmite, ie love or hate, I agree, but at least this one is wood – brown wood even – and metal too! 🙂
My Rulers have ruled that it is their pleasure to only let obedient grovellers have a powerful airgun. So for me, the Hatsan Flashpup QE is out. 🙂
Still, it would have been nice to mention it’s weight. Maybe in the next part, eh?
I look forward to reading how you continue to get on with it. 🙂
hi3,
“The Flashpup with walnut stock weighs 6.1 pounds (7 pounds in synthetic).”
BB
” Touché !”Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier). 🙂
And thank you for your answer.
3hi,
Our Rulers will one day take away our powerful airguns. First they must take away our Constitutional Rights, then they can do as they desire.
On the bright side, this will not likely happen in my lifetime. The future generations will have to worry about that.
*** Bullpups looks are a bit like Marmite, ie love or hate ***
hihihi,
I too prefer traditional airguns, I took my quite a while to get used to my Impact.
Truth being said, you don’t “see” the gun while looking through the scope so as long as the ergonomics are good I would say they are ok… still don’t care for them though.
I don’t understand the ultra-compact “pistol disguised as a rifle” designs are supposed to be more maneuverable for hunting either. I’ve never had any big problems maneuvering a normal rifle in any bush that I could walk/hunt in and I’d much prefer the efficiency of a longer barrel. They just look odd to me.
Hank
Persactly! I have no problem with long guns. I would really like to have a Virginia long rifle. It is very similar to the Pennsylvania/Kentucky long rifle. I also do not like real high fill pressures. 2000-3000 PSI is more than enough.
RidgeRunner, I too like those fully stocked rifles. For me they have a ‘je ne sais quoi’, a mysterious something that goes beyond their good looks. 🙂
I wonder in what way the Virginia long rifle differs from the very similar Kentucky?
https://www.flintlocks.com/RK-08.htm
https://www.flintlocks.com/rifles04.htm
It is true that my experience with the Quatro trigger is very limited, but it has been very positive. The very few that I have pulled have been most pleasant. I have heard that the early ones were not so hot, but Hatsan seems to have not only listened, but did something about it.
I do not see me buying one of these, though. This is what I call a first-generation bullpup. The cocking mechanism is located at the shoulder. All that was done to the Flash was a new stock was put under it. They were forced to do something with the trigger, and it sounds as though they once again gave it some serious attention, but unless you are a contortionist, you will have to remove this from your shoulder to cock it for every shot. It seems I am not the only one who has issue with that.
Yes, moving the cocking mechanism forward involves additional cost, but present market demands for success require this. There are too many very nice ‘pups out there for anything less to truly be competitive except in cost.
LOL! BB likes it though!
R. R.
I myself find those first gen bullpups outdated. After buying/using some of them I have come to the conclusion that the ideal compact gun is with the tank under a shrouded barrel and a folding stock with the loading lever, if not semi auto, on the left side, me being right handed.
By the way did you ever get the Kral mini bullpup?
You mean the Empire XS? I have been looking at it for a long time, but the money just does not seem to appear in my wallet. I guess someone else will get mine.
B.B.
35 shots in .177 on a fill and even more with ,22 and ,25? Huh? How did they do that, Magic?
With the Quatto trigger on springers, if you have a slight upward pull to the trigger it feels much lighter that a straight pull back.
-Y
Yogi,
Larger calibers have typically gotten more shots on a given fill than smaller ones. Only in the past 15 years have I seen .177s get as many or more shots than a .22.
BB
Makes no sense!
Maybe you could do a blog article on why?
When I look at the specifications on PA’s web site, most pcp’s get 20% fewer shots with .22 than .177 and usually less than half in .25 vs .177.
How many shots do big bore airguns get? Not many…
-Y
Yogi,
I’m with you on this one for sure!
I checked each of the Specifications on the PA site and it comes up .177caliber at 35 Shots, .22caliber at 30, and .25caliber at 25!
Seems like a bit of confusion unless SPECIFICATIONS aren’t what the used to be….
From my long time experience unregulated PCPs with a reasonably balanced valve delivering the same MZ velocities (subsonic) and at the maximum energy for caliber, the larger caliber will typically use more air charge per shot. If the PCP is poorly tuned for maximum efficiency or maximum power then who knows what the numbers for any parameter might be!
Most new to PCP owners have their adjustable PCPs settings screwed up shortly after they get them out of the box. That becomes virtually all of them that don’t own a Chronograph or have no clue how to use the information it can provide.
Thank you for the RANT opportunity Yogi!
Once you add a regulator all that can be changed dramatically for the better or worse.
shootski
Hello all! My first post here and i thought i would give some advice/recomendation/ideas what i have found out with the 2 Hatsan Flash i have, they are buildt to leave high power and less shots from factory, and that’s ok if you only gonna hunt and need a handfull of shots for a trip, but if you want to use more shots the power/speed will drop with each shot you take, so they aren’t fun if you want to shoot targets or plink, witch i do, the good thing is it’s easy to double or trippel the shotcount, with a bit lower power ofcourse, but with these you don’t hunt for moose or bears so you still have all the power you need to hunt birds or squirrels or any other small pests, you do need a chronograph, pellets and some tools and time but that’s part of the fun i think, atleast when the result show better performance… as said these deliver almost max their power from factory, and when you shoot a string trough the chrony you see the speed drops like a cliff for each shot, what i did i bought a box of springs from the local hardware store, then took out the hammerspring and when I did that 2 washers fell out, so I removed them and tried again and much better! They made the gun waste to much air cause you get hammerbounce when the hammer return after the pellet is send of, it slams into the spring/washer again and bounce back into the valve and open it again but now the pellet is on it’s way already so you waste that air, this can happen many times for each shot so you can hear the gun make a “burp” sound, not effective! You can try with only the hammerspring and see how the gun perform, or you can look in the box with springs to find one with the same dimensions and cut it a bit shorter, or try some “softer” at the same lenght or shorter to find one that works for your need, with this method i manage to get my 177 to shoot 60 jsb 10.34gr between 190-100 bar, all between 244-254 m/s or around 800-834 fps, then 11 more that dropped to 232 m/s at 80 bar, this will give a flat shooting well over 50m, and you most likely can make these numbers better with more time and brain than I have…oh, and in .22 i have not found out the best performance yet, i get 50 jsb 13.43gr between 150-80 bar at around 784-806 fps, 120 jsb hades between 190-60 bar but with a wide spread of 120 fps, i think I can improve that… /ag72
New guy,
Welcome to the blog. You have made an interesting discovery!
Thanks for sharing,
BB
Thank you! It can be quite rewarding to experiment with these “simpler buildt” airguns without any bells and whistles that don’t cost more than your car,
Why the change in the Blog layout? It was nice seeing previous Blog entries and paging through them. Change is not always good!
Jonah,
I don’t know. No one told me this was coming or why.
BB
Pyramyd Air
Doing away with previous blog entries takes away helpful reminders of blogs from the past. Many were timeless and offered valuable tips and education for the hobby we love. I looked for them everyday. I’m hoping this is a temporary problem. If other readers liked them maybe they will let you know. In my opinion they helped grow the hobby and increased sales for airguns and accessories.
Deck
Deck,
The previous blog entries are still there. They just took away the pictures. The titles are in the right-hand column.
BB
BB
Yes and I do use the column on the right when I know the subject I’m looking for. The now missing feature often led me down paths I hadn’t thought about in a long time. Oh well, new and improved.
Thanks,
Deck
Because the Tech Gods decided it so. We are at their mercy….
-Y
BB,
They timed me out while composing a comment!
I wonder why the bolt lever is able to rotate downward after cocking. Why have this design if the sear holds the bolt back, like every other PCP that I’ve seen?
Regards,
Will
Will,
Sealing the breech more positively?
BB
BB,
Sorry, I was unclear with my question. What I meant to ask is, after the bolt has been pulled back, why is there a place to rotate the handle down while the bolt is in the rearward position? This is where the sear would have a hold of the hammer. It’s a feature that other bolt action repeaters don’t have.
Thanks,
Will
Will S.
I will venture an idea.
If the repeater can be shot with a single shot tray it keeps the bolt from sliding around as you try to load the pellet/bullet.
My Quackenbush Outlaw pistols and rifles are all single shot. Dennis uses another handle for cocking the Striker/Hammer on his PCPs which is captured by a slot to avoid inadvertent discharges with a sear slip or the more likely “accidental” operator trigger press; that is how it was done on most of the “early” Modern Era PCP. DAQ still uses that system and also uses the forward cocking handle turndown to keep the gun breech safely closed during the shot cycle.
It may also be the simple fact that many bolt action firearm require a bolt rotation to lock up the bolt to the breech and is the traditional way to do it?
Hope this makes a bit of sense.
shootski
Will,
That notch in the rear is to hold the bolt back whole loading the magazine. If the bolt is in the way that can’t be done. It is a common feature on PCPs with circular magazines.
BB
Will-
The open bolt notch keeps the bolt open and out of the way while loading the magazine. There is a little spring tension still on the bolt when cocked and if you don’t lock it into the notch you have to hold the bolt open against that spring while sliding the mag in. It isn’t 100% necessary, but it is helpful.
*** It comes in .177. .22 and .25. It is powerful so of course most buyers went with .25 caliber, followed by a few .22s that would have been my choice. Perhaps one in a hundred bought the .177. Being an avowed contrarian, BB decided to look at the .177. ***
BB,
I’m surprised at your caliber choice, an anti-enabling thing? Figured that you would test the more popular .25.
Except for purpose-designed PCPs like 10 meter or Field Target airguns (or the UK restricted power airguns) I equate .177 to springers and think of the .22 as the smallest (practical) PCP caliber.
I have HW100S FAC PCPs in .177 and .22 and feel that the .22 is much better suited for that kinda power.
With the factory tune, the .177 was shooting regular pellets at very close to trans-sonic velocities. I didn’t want to have to use extra heavy .177 pellets so I had to down-tune to shoot the 10 grains I keep in stock.
Just saying as that might be the same situation with the .177 Flashpup. Curious what the velocities will be.
Happy Monday all!
Hank
Edit…
Being a rear-bolt design, can the bolt be switched to the left side? My HW44 has the cocking lever on the left and I find it to be very convenient not to have to switch hands back and forth.
Vana2,
For shooting pellets i would agree with you Hank…almost all the time for in the past.
I think .177 bullets (slugs) are going to change all that as well as perhaps the redesigned pellets that are hitting the shelves.
Time will tell but folks told me NOT to shoot bullets (slugs) in my SIG ASP20s in .22 and .177 caliber. Funny thing that, since i’m now able to get 1 MOA or smaller groups out to 50 at least half the time and i’m NOT a Spring Piston expert! And! That is with the very limited (but growing) current bullets (slugs) to choose from!
That’s how we always do it is getting old!
Things are in flux in the Airgun World as you well are aware now we need to get more folks to NOT be so hidebound.
Shootski
*** I think .177 bullets (slugs) are going to change all that ***
You’re right shootski!
That same old thinking says that .177 airguns (typically) don’t have “slug capability” either in power or barrel. That’s changed now.
The .177 PCPs have the power and some companies are making slug barrels for them.
Thanks for the kick in the perspective 😉
Hank
Hank,
Your welcome!
I may be 74 now but this “Old Dog” is learning NEW tricks!
Shootski
Shootski
I recently became a proud owner of an HW 90, .22cal with the Theoben barrel, at least it says so on the block. Trying to get to know each other I found some H&N slugs and thought “let’s see”, since it’s in the area of 30 joules. Well, without effort or high power scope, I managed half an inch in 10 meters… You can bet that when I get to know this rifle slugs are going to be tested thoroughly.
Bill,
Best shooting with that new HW 90!
Have lots of FUN.
You probably have seen this information or something similar:
https://www.bestfittings.co.uk/shop/airgun-charging-equipment/charging-pumps/theoben-weihrauch-hw90-gas-ram-charging-pump-kit/
I wish SIG AIR had provided this type of capability with the ASP20!
shootski
Shootski
To be honest along with the gun the seller included the adapter, and the price was really good… I might use it with the pump but It seems to be in a very good balance between power and effort required. Oh it’s loud so I fitted an adapter with a silencer and a Hawk 3×9/50. Maybe some day I can brag about long range shooting.
Read in an airgun forum the “sweet spot” for shooting accurately and with acceptable cocking effort is about 19-20 bar pressure for the gas spring. FM has the .22 HW90 on his Enablement Radar.
FM
The seller told me that It must have been set at that pressure level. Although I wonder what power level it can reach filled to 23-25 bars it’s very well regulated for my strength with the output of 30j/23fpe.
Bill, I was surprised how well behaved my HW90 was at a mere 10 bar (145 psi) new out of the box air ram pressure. 🙂
By contrast, at the maximum 26 bar (377 psi), I thought both cocking and shooting an awful experience!
So, I have yet to discover the minimum air ram pressure for plinking over 50 metres, eg reliably knocking down my resettable metal silhouettes. 🙂
Hi3 good morning
Do you happen to know the power output at 10 bars? My guess would be 12 to 15 joules.
The thing is that the K 98 I also got recently is set up to this level so I wanted the HW 90 to be the powerhouse, since it’s very well mannered for this kind of power.
Sorry Bill, I do not know. I guess, more shooting and measuring required, eh? 🙂
Although, what I’m after, is a feeling and an effect! 🙂
So, for me, much more shooting required… hurrah! 🙂
Is your Diana/ Mauser K98 the precharged pneumatic version?
Hihihi
The K 98 is the springer version. I found a last exhibition item but unfortunately it must have been mistreated because the trigger broke while loaded after 30 shots!!! Anyway since it was not under warranty and the broken part was unavailable in Europe I found a T06 trigger and piston in Schneider so I bought it along with a 12 fpe spring. With some lube it’s now in the 14j territory and works fine. Off course with taking care of the loading lever to stay closed…
Ah, nice Bill. But what frustrating start to your Mauser! Fingers crossed, this is the beginning of a beautiful ownership. 🙂
I too have some new internals for mine (tinbumtuning spring and guide), but they have yet to be installed. Sadly, the little blue breech seal didn’t survive a dropped cocking lever shot, so, that too, needs to be replaced.
Finally, I intend to rub my chin while looking at the currently inadequate lever retainer. 🙂
FawltyManual,
Those Iggy will be laying low! Or hiding in the trees even more….
Enable, enable, enable ;^)
shootski
Last one seen was January 1st; quoth the Maximus “Nevermore.” Seems the “cold” snap we had down here afterwards did a number on them – that and all the iggy hunters in the ‘hood. There’s unfortunately also been a loss of habitat due to residential development nearby. No matter, that HW90 needs no justification – paper targets and feral cans are good enough. FM should turn off the Enablement Radar. 😉
FM
You could be very easily hooked on the HW 90 if you can get one with the filling adapter and a pump. Think of the possibility of adjusting it from 10 to 25 fpe and the easiness of service since you can empty the air and have no preload to deal with.
PA description says it’s ambidextrious. Is it?
Markin,
That depends on what you mean by that term. The stock and safety are ambidextrous. The bolt remains on the right side of the gun.
BB
Tom,
Take it from a southpaw, that bolt means the only left-hander who could shoot it would have to be missing all of his teeth on his left side and sporting a 1/2 inch hole in his left cheek. In the last 14 years I have seen only one ambidextrous long airgun. (Nope, I don’t remember what it was.)
Michael
Michael,
The bolt is on the R-side. But as a lefty I find it usable if not ideal. I mean, come on- it’s a right handed world. Lefties adapt and persevere.
Hell, I can’t use left handed scissors. I bought a left handed tape measure a couple of years ago. I’ve been a left handed carpenter using right handed tape measures upside down and backwards my whole life. I mis-marked and then mis-cut $300 worth of finish plywood the day I proudly brought out my new lefty tape measure.
I was awfully proud of how far I managed to throw it across the job site when I realized my trouble.
ProfSteelToe, am I glad that I read your comment dry, especially the last sentence, ie had I been enjoying a cuppa, the immediate vicinity in front of me would have too! 🙂
They say – I dunno who, or if it’s right – that lefties are the other half of identical twins, which is interesting. 🙂
Late last year I decided to replace my old, rusty, scratched and floppy tape measure, for a stiffer and wider one for greater reach.
For a bit of fun, I opted for a tape measure with print on both sides. This novelty – to me – has turned out to be a really useful feature! 🙂
Hihihi,
A double-sided tape is great thing. It is such a helpful and simple feature I wish it was standard on all tapes.
In the US the Stanley Fat Max 25′ tape measure is the gold standard- the TX200 of tapes. $20 a tape, 2 for $20 at christmas time.
I probably buy 12 of them a year. I lose 2 of them, 5 end up in somebody else’s tool belt, and the rest I end up giving to guys on the job when their $30 tape measure breaks.
*** The bolt remains on the right side of the gun. ***
So it’s NOT ambidextrous ’cause they forgot an important part that would make it so 🙂
Vana2,
Take a look at the pictures of the Left side of the stock. It looks to me like it would be possible for there to be a Lefty version of the receiver/action. Perhaps a buyer (at PA or elsewhere) read/was told ambidextrous stock and forgot to order Lefty actions…. There is enough confusion about this airguns SPECIFICATIONS that it turns me off since buying something on line has lately become even more of a crapshoot than it was three or more years ago. This COVID 19 pandemic has caused COVIDmentia and COVIDdiscompetance to run rampant!
shoots
Shootski
Or, as my wife would say,,”Ya can’t get good help, these days”
But I tell her to think back. That has been said for the last fifty years that I can remember.
Ed
That sounds sinister to FM.
B.B. and USA Readership,
This is really IMPORTANT to understand:
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND
EXPLOSIVES
OFFICIAL NOTIFICATION
JANUARY 29, 2023
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
23-ATF-002629: UNKNOWN SILENCER: NONE, 6 1/4 IN X 1 5/8 IN BLACK METAL SILENCER MARKED SUMO BY
DONNYFL FOR AIRGUN USE ONLY,CAL:Unknown SN:None, valued at $20.00, seized by the ATF on November
28, 2022 from Chance Walsh in Pensacola, FL for forfeiture pursuant to 26 U.S.C. Section 5872.
IF you have questions will try to answer them as best I can. I am not a lawyer so it is my opinion and not legal advise in any way shape or form!
If you have a REMOVABLE muffler, moderator, LDC, “oil Filter, silencer, suppressor or anything of like kind and NO Tax Stamp gotten by ATF Form 1 or Form 4; then, in my opinion, you need to be very careful about what you do and where you go with said device.
I personally am going to hope that Donny prevails in the legal battle but until then I’m looking at how to make these airgun devices legal to possess.
I’ll share what FACTS i find out from competent legal counsel and proper government authority.
shootski
shootski,
I’ve always wondered about the other names for silencers. Like really, calling one a LDC (Lead Dust Collector or something else) is not fooling anybody – least of all the authorities who would likely take offense at such an obvious misrepresentation.
From my understanding of the US law pertaining to silencers, if to shoot through a loaf of bread and it reduces the report one decibel (and it likely would) you could be charged with using an illegal device.
In Canada (being an unenlightened country) such things are simply not permitted – at least for law abiding citizens.
Personally, I wish that moderators were allowed for airguns. Not because they make the airgun backyard friendly but because it would vastly increase the models of airguns available in Canada. It would be much better if airguns did not have to be “de-moderated” to be approved for sale here.
H
Hank,
I wish i understood US Law better, i have a handle on the Federal Code, BUT… the 50 States, District, Territories, and Possessions with their manifold Statutes and Regulations that typically have no shared rhyme nor reason… TERRIBLENESS!
It isn’t the ATF that would have anything to do with that loaf of bread UNLESS you made representation that it was formed, baked, and offered for sale as a Suppressor.
It would be state and local ordinances and prosecutorial choice that would cover the usage or carrying of the bread loaf for use as a Suppressor.
shootski
shootski,
I also am not a lawyer, but less than three years ago I purchased a used airgun, and it happened to arrive with a silencer/moderator/LDC made by a mainstream, frequently advertised maker who has many of these for sale at many well-known air gun dealers. I had no inkling it was included in the sale, so I e-mailed the seller to make sure he hadn’t included it by accident. He replied he thought I might want it because it fit the air rifle.
This was before I retired, so I took it to work and privately showed it to a colleague of mine who taught criminal justice and pre-law courses. He is a criminal defense lawyer who has worked in Federal Court and is semi-retired.
He told me that the federal law is simple and clear on such devices. First, how they are named, advertised or sold is of no legal importance. Nor does it matter if it is sold as “for air guns only.” It is illegal if it can be used (not necessarily attached) to reduce the report of a firearm, even if only for one shot. If it is on an air gun and cannot be removed without destroying it (a la epoxy), it is legal.
His last bit of advice, said very seriously and preceded with, “I’m going to give you some excellent and free legal advice: As soon as you get home, take this out back, flatten it with a sledgehammer, and put it deep into your trash just before it gets picked up by the garbage truck.” I did exactly that. (Well, I didn’t wait for the garbage truck.)
Incidentally, I believe many (not most) states now have laws defining air guns over a certain caliber to be firearms. This bugs me no end. I expect this to become ever more the case and eventually part of the BATF’s definitions, especially now as Evanix and likely other companies are marketing certain models of air guns that are metal-ammo-shooting weapons advertised to be shot at human beings in self-defense. A PCP handgun that produces a mere 20 fpe is, in a practical sense, less-than-lethal. Nevertheless, we are taking about a metal pellet handgun designed and advertised to be shot at human beings.
To some folks in this country, the difference between an Evanix Viper (not an innocuous name, which matters to lawmakers and judges) and a pesting powered springer in .22 is nonexistent. 2nd Amendment advocates fear slippery slopes, right? This springer air gun enthusiast fears this will be a slippery slope leading to blanket air gun restrictions.
I hope major air gun retailers use their power of the purse to warn air gun makers away from these types of products for the sake of keeping air guns lightly (if at all) regulated.
Michael
Michael,
Interesting story….
I have no difficulty getting Tax Stamps and will even pay for them if that is what benighted US government policy requires.
As far as you trying to protect your low power springers the only option you have is to VOTE for the right candidates that will not Take Away your God Given RIGHTS.
IT isn’t those of US that shoot machine guns, .50 caliber firearms as well as powerful airguns that are putting your access to your springers at risk; it is those that revel in controlling yours and other folks lives.
Cast blame where blame is due and I will support your position to the End of Days! But blame innocent gun owners of any kind and I will bury you and others with like positions in the facts of Liberty, Freedom, and Equality.
Let go of irrational fears and embrace the three legs of our Last Hope for our Republic.
The Tyrannical EVIL is abroad in this land of ours.
shootski
Michael
20 fpe PCP airgun non lethal? It’s my understanding that even the softest lead ammo will easily penetrate a human skull at this power level. And I would like to point out the fact that in many places around the world, where manufacturers are, this is the only type of guns that can be legally owned. So this makes them the last solution of defense with a gun before using a bat or hands.
I believe freedom is to have choices and it’s best to try to have the administrations that preserve these choices instead of lessening them.
Hank,
“I’ve always wondered about the other names for silencers. Like really, calling one a LDC (Lead Dust Collector or something else) is not fooling anybody.”
To allude to the Bard, a silencer by any other name would smell just as criminal.
Michael
Michael,
Suppressor are not silent and they are not of themselves CRIMINAL! Government policy is what makes them illegal (without paying a tax) other countries with no 2nd Amendment encourage the use of suppression in airguns as well as firearms.
shootski
Another example of closet authoritarian overreach, in FM’s opinion only, of course. You are correct, even if you think you’re on the right side of the law on this issue, best to be careful what you do, where you go and how you talk about it and in front of whom you do so. Don’t brag or “advertise.” Sad it is this way but it will not change until we figure out an effective way to regulate the regulators. The human ones.
B.B.,
“(Section VII — Quick Fill Nozzle O-Rings Replacement),”
I hope they get the right size O-Ring size when they reorder. O-Rings used like this usually need to fill the width of the groove and be only slightly taller than the groove walls to seal effectively and have half a chance to not be shredded or pressure extruded in use.
shootski
I am surprised, and pleased at the same time, to see that BB has picked the .177 caliber version. For that power level, I, personally, would pick the .25 caliber, and I would be making that decision mostly in the light of what I’ve learned reading this blog – I must have missed a few classes. 😉 There are dozens of tests on Youtube on .22 and .25 calibers of this air gun – in bullpup and carbine. They all appear to be accurate platforms. I am excited to read the rest of this report as I haven’t seen any tests on this one in .177. Still, with .177 caliber, I have doubts, considering the power this one produces. I bet BB knows something that I don’t, and I cannot wait to find out what that is.
Tom,
Off-topic, but if you plan to do yet another blog entry on the Diana Oktoberfest gallery gun, I found a source (albeit in Germany) of MANY different 4.4 mm (and 4.5 mm) round balls, including one branded Diana. And for Healthways Plainsman MA22 and MC22 owners (if there are any) they also carry a plated roundball in .22!
Anyway, I thought I’d let you and any Oktoberfest owners out there know.
Michael
Michael,
I do have plans for more reports on the Oktoberfest, but not until the weather warms a little.
As for Diana 4.4mm balls, I think we discovered they are undersized. Still a new source is always welcome.
BB
Here you go: https://www.shoot-club.de/Stahl-Blei-Kupferkugeln
It’s a bewildering, dizzying array of ammo, made even more mysterious by its being in German!
Michael,
Vielen dank!
BB
Bitte schön!
It may be that I’m getting older but lighter and easier to handle bullpups really feel good to me as well. Almost? regrated getting the FX Independance after I picked up the FX Indy. Like the name implies an abbreviated version.
However, I would really have a hard time deciding which is better for all round ease of handling and reduced weight when compared to something like my Evanix AR6 Carbine.
Given the opportunity, I prefer extended barrel bullpups and more or less a semi-bullpup.
Not too long or short and usually have a stock that’s a bit longer than a compact pup.
What I really dislike are pistol grips connected to the stock at the bottom. It may not affect shooting but is a constant obstacle when handling the thing. I cut it off my Hatsan Invader. Drove me crazy.
New models from Gamo and Hatsan always excite me. Do you folks also think that their breakbarrel springers should be sold without scopes, but with better triggers, barrels, and opensights instead – also with a bit lower FPS numbers on .177 cals?