Hy Score 807
This report covers:
- Thank Yogi and BB
- Oiled the piston seal
- Yogi said…
- And BB answered…
- Warm up
- RWS Hobbys
- Standard Deviation
- Air Arms Falcons
- RWS Meisterkugeln
- Discussion
- Summary
Today we do something I don’t think I have ever done before. This is a second velocity test of my new/old Hy Score 807 pellet rifle that is a Diana 27 under another name.
Thank Yogi and BB
You can thank reader Yogi and B.B. Pelletier for today’s topic. In the previous report I mentioned that I shot a final RWS Hobby pellet through the chronograph that registered 507 f.p.s. The average for that pellet was 493 f.p.s., and the highest previous velocity I had seen with that pellet was 496 f.p.s. When the last shot is 7 f.p.s. faster than the previous fastest velocity and when that fastest previous velocity is 17 f.p.s. faster than the previous fastest velocity (479 f.p.s. observed on the first string of 10 shots), then something is happening. Inquiring minds want to know!
Oiled the piston seal
I also mentioned in Part 2 that the last thing I did was drop 5 drops of Crosman Pellgunoil down the barrel with the rifle standing on its butt.
Yogi said…
Here is what Yogi said.
“B.B. With a freshly oiled piston seal, do you anticipate any further velocity gains?
Guess I will find out later…….
Good Weekend everybody!”
-Y
And BB answered…
Yogi,
I almost retested the rifle for Monday’s blog. With your question and the fact that I also want to know, I think I will.
BB
So I retested it for today. When you see the results I think you will agree that it was a good thing to do.
Warm up
I hadn’t shot the rifle since oiling the piston seal six days earlier, so I shot about 5 shots to warm things up. I’m glad I did because the first four were detonations from the oil. The fifth shot was quieter and I knew the rifle was now only dieseling, as it is supposed to.
RWS Hobbys
First to be tested were RWS Hobbys. As a refresher in Part 2 the first string of Hobbys averaged 472 f.p.s. with a 13 f.p.s. spread from 466 to 479 f.p.s. The second string averaged 493 f.p.s. with an 8 f.p.s. spread from 488 to 496 f.ps.
Today, the Hobby averaged 558 f.p.s. with a 14 f.p.s spread from 551 to 565 f.p.s. That is a 65 f.p.s. increase in velocity from the fastest average seen in Part 2! To quote the 18th century British seaman, “I am impressed!” Today’s muzzle energy is 8.23 foot-pounds, which is up from the previous high of 6.42 foot pounds.
Standard Deviation
And, just for reader Shootski, the standard deviation for this string was 4.89 f.p.s. Standard deviation tells you how concentrated around the average the data set is. Ninety-five percent of all the data points will be within two standard deviations of the mean (average). If the standard deviation is small, the spread is also small. I have always thought that, with just ten data points in the set, the extreme spread tells us what we need to know.
The bottom line? This rifle is smokin’!
Air Arms Falcons
I shot Air Arms Falcons next. They averaged 439 f.p.s. in the previous report, with a spread of 31 f.p.s. This time they averaged 481 f.p.s. — a gain of 42 f.p.s. The spread this time went from a low of 466 to a high of 501 f.p.s. — a difference of 35 f.p.s. The standard deviation is 10.19 f.p.s. At the new average velocity this pellet generates 6.9 foot pounds. That’s up from 5.75 foot pounds from the time before.
RWS Meisterkugeln
The last pellet I tested was the 14-grain RWS Meisterkugeln wadcutter. In Part 2 this pellet averaged 467 f.p.s. with an 18 f.p.s. spread between 458 to 476 f.p.s. I said that I thought that was as good as it could get, and boy, was that ever wrong! Today, after oiling the piston seal this pellet averaged 550 f.p.s. for a muzzle energy of 9.41 foot pounds. Last time the energy was 6.78 foot pounds. This is almost a 3 foot-pound increase, which is a 28 percent gain.
The extreme spread this time was 18 f.p.s. which is the same as before. The low was 542 and the high was 560 f.p.s. The standard deviation was 5.47 f.p.s. Please note that the smallest standard deviation (4.89) in today’s testing was with the pellet that also had the smallest extreme spread (14). That should hold true most of the time, if not always.
Discussion
Today’s test should have taught us a valuable lesson — that leather piston seals need to be oiled. I picked up on that in Part 2 and oiled the seal after the test, which made a retest today necessary, as far as I was concerned. I didn’t expect to see such dramatic results, though.
Summary
This little .22-caliber Hy Score 807 is turning out to be one fine air rifle! I do want to take it apart and put a little Tune in a Tube on the mainspring, and then I want to shoot it for accuracy.
Glad things worked out!
That velocity increase probably adds 15 yards to the “effective range” of this gun.
Well done,
-Yogi
B.B.,
I’m glad you included the Standard Deviation just for me!
I think there are a few other folks who like SD better than Extreme Spread since it counts the value of each shot of the ten in the group instead of just the high and the low data. ES will invariably grow with almost each additional data point but SD will stabilize around a more realistic value. In this test you can also compare the stability of the different pellet muzzle velocities: 4.89, 10.19, 5.47 and come back on a different day and the SD will be a better way to compare the performance with different conditions…my PCP powerplant experience without regulator(s) might be a factor in my preference for SD. I will look into why I have this strong bias against ES!
shootski
Not sure that I would weight ES and SD differently. Of course, I’m coming from an ammo manufacturing background, so there is that difference. To me, just more tools in the analytical toolbox.
Shootski,
I favor SD as well. Use it the most when tuning or monitoring the power plant but also keep an eye on ES and Average – especially when starting a new tin of pellets.
I really like the FX Radar as I can collect stats for the whole session while target shooting or plinking and scan the results for abnormalities afterwards.
Hank
shootski,
My springers shoot what they shoot, +/- 5 fps. Standard deviation is worthless for me.
Should update what I said yesterday, lol.
Complicated, Confusing and Chrony dependent!.
Enjoy the weekend!
-Y
Yogi,
Not going to argue with your position on FPS!
I will say that SD is usable for most sets, groups, populations and that SD is much better at predicting a future outcome. So as a hunter it helps as well as knowing right quick when something is changing.
I agree that standard optical Chronograph are a pain. With a Doppler like the FX and Labradar i can set it up on a bench, shooting mat, tripod and have it do its thing. Even shooting dawgs or other stuff you just need to point the Doppler RADAR beam where you are shooting…or not if you don’t have time.
I will “Enjoy the weekend!” and I hope you and everyone else do too!
shootski
I agree as a statistical tool Standard Deviation is very helpful. Particularly, when the results are pretty variable. When the result are less variable they are less helpful.
-Y
BB,
Whatever the reason, who cares. The more information, the better.
That is not true, actually. There is such a thing as saturation point. Beyond that is information overload. The funny thing is, each of us have our own tolerance levels.
Also, our tolerance levels will vary depending on the situation. With the information you are providing in your reviews here, I and likely others do not need the SD stated. Many of us will subconsciously do a “rough calculation” of such. More often the subjective information is important, such as “what was the firing cycle like?”
Now, when we get to accuracy, that is when most of us feel the rubber meets the road. More often than not, when you have a small SD under ideal conditions the grouping tends to be tighter. When shooting my own personal airguns, I do pay pretty close attention to ES and SD, but not so much average velocity. I do not care how long it takes to get to the target. I am going to be more concerned with consistency.
Yeah, I know I am rambling. Hey, what do you expect this early in the morning?
BB,
Just to stir the pot up a bit, when I look at the pictures of this “Diana”, it looks pretty “slab sided” to me.
RR,
It does look that way, but the stock is fully shaped.
BB
So, will a little more oil increase the velocity further? Where is the point of diminishing return? I’ve overhauled some guns with leather piston seals that were so dry, five or six drops of oil didn’t even begin to make a difference. Those needed a liberal amount of silicone oil to become pliable again.
Derrick,
Diminishing returns? Well, I would say when the gun starts detonating and will not stop you have gone too far. I have had that, though a leather seal doesn’t do it as much as a synthetic seal. But that could also be due to the lower power levels generally found in guns with leather seals.
BB
BB
Something I never tried was replacing a leather piston seal to a synthetic seal on a spring gun. Main reason is I haven’t owned a spring gun with a leather seal.
But a question on that. Will a synthetic seal increase the guns velocity compared to the same gun with a leather seal?
GF1,
I don’t think it will, but I’m not sure.
BB
BB
I should of read down the comments farther before I commented to you.
RobertA below said that the synthetic seals actually slowed the gun down verses the leather seals when converted.
Not sure what to think about that unless you or I where to try it. Who knows. Maybe one day I’ll own a leather sealed gun to try it out on.
B.B.,
You revived the piston seal by dropping “5 drops of Crosman Pellgunoil down the barrel with the rifle standing on its butt.” Makes sense. My question is instead of that, could one firmly hold the barrel open with one hand and drip some Pellgunoil directly into the transfer port?
Michael
Michael,
Certainly. That is the approved method of doing it. What I did was the lazy man’s way. 😉
BB
BB-
I’ve had the opportunity to work with leather seals, packings, glands, etc., in a variety of applications over the years. If maintained with a proper lubricant, the longevity of leather is astounding. But the key is maintenance. And in general, society abhors maintenance. Much rather buy a new shiny, than clean and maintain (and lubricate) the existing inventory. Besides, the maintainers are an unnecessary drag on the bottom line. I know, I rant.
Anyway, my point is, that leather is not antiquated or outdated. It is just old. I rejuvenated the leather foot valve seal of a wooden well pump that was at least 150 years old. Didn’t need the latest, greatest petroleum or synthetic. No, just melted lard. It worked. Still works.
So, the Hy-Score/ Diana will continue to operate into the future. A quick checklist for other leather seals-
Is the seal lubricated? If the answer is no or unknown- lubricate it.
How much is too much? You’ll find out, but the entire seal has to saturated.
How often? Ah, the schedule. Maintenance lives by the schedule. Too often and the gun will be messy. Back off. But personally, I’m usually an adherent of Moore’s Law. Too much is just right. I can clean excess lube. Hint: on new wood stocked guns, I disassemble and seal all wood surfaces to prevent oil soaking.
Final thought- you have documented how the early synthetic seals weren’t quite right and how much better the new ones serve their purpose. Any takers on how the plastic fantastics fare in 150 years?
Pacoinohio,
“Maintenance lives by the schedule.”
Yup, agree completely!
I can be anal about such things (have a schedule list on the computer for house and vehicle stuff) but for airguns I just go by “tins of pellets” …lubricate every “n” tins; clean barrel every “n” tins. Each rifle has its tin assigned, I just stick a label on the lid to keep track of things (the lid gets moved to the next tin as required). Works for me.
It’s amazing how well things work and how long they last if they are cleaned and lubricated regularly eh?
Hank
Pacoinohio, what do you use to seal a new wood stock? I would like to seal up some older firearms and my recently acquired R7.
Roamin Greco,
What do you mean by “seal up” your wood gun stocks?
Your R7 has a spray lacquer finish from the factory. It’s “sealed”.
Need to know the existing finish on your firearm gun stocks and what you mean by seal to give you advice.
Pacoinohio wrote, “Hint: on new wood stocked guns, I disassemble and seal all wood surfaces to prevent oil soaking.” I’m assuming that at least on some gun stocks, the hidden parts adjacent to the barreled action may not get the same finish as the outside surface, and that Pacoinohio seals the wood to prevent oil from soaking into and weakening the wood. My question is what do you seal it with?
Most stocks have a spray applied finish. Priority is given to the exposed parts. I use a thinned polyurethane to seal the inlet areas. This seals the wood against oil absorption and strengthens the wood fibers. Once dry the entire stock gets a coat of paste wax to protect the finish.
BB
As usual I am in need of more education. Four detonation shots in a row could cook the internals. According to Cardews’ book “The Airgun from Trigger to Target”, detonation is to be avoided. After detonation number one I would have expected you to clean the barrel. While dieseling is normal combustion for lots of airguns, detonation is another story. Or maybe not.
Deck
Deck,
I’m not quite as fussy as the Cardews. I will allow several detonations in a row. I just won’t make them the norm.
BB
BB
Thanks for your response which sounds quite reasonable to me.
Nice velocity surprise in your test today. Expect good accuracy too if the sights are good.
Deck
Paco and Hank,
The original manual for the 1906 BSA said to lubricate after every 50 shots. Seems a bit much to me, but many of the old gals around here have leather seals and it is kind of nice to go around at least twice a year and feed them a little silicone oil.
Wow! That’s hot for a .22 caliber in a diana 27 platform. Healthy gal.
BB, Now you get to shoot all the oil out for the accuracy part. The baby squirrels have invaded the walnut in the yard, but I will let them chew the immature nuts so I dont need to rake up all the sharp empty shells later on. The hawks will thin out the heard.
I think the HW30s was on sale for a reason.
Rob
BB,
Off topic, but have you or anyone on the blog heard any updates on the Crosman 362? When might we actually get to see one? If they shoot, one just might find a permanent home down at my cabin!
BobF
Bob,
I don’t have any word.
BB
BB,
Thanks!
BobF
bfrey
I remember when someone (Gunfun1) took a 1377 and Discovery and turned the 1377 into a wood stock steel breeched pumper rifle.
Talked to people at Crosman about making the gun.
Nothing has happened for a long time now. Maybe someone at Crosman got the ball rolling again.
The thing is the interchangeability of a series of Crosman and Benjamin guns needs to be factored into the design. Otherwise it will just be another 392 or 397.
And that was the whole point of my idea. Get away from the 392 and 77 and use the other 1300 2240 2200 and Discovery/Maximus platform. There is so much of a modular interchangeable design in those guns it ain’t funny.
If they build the 362 so those guns I mentioned interchange with it then I will say hat’s off to Crosman.
But they better do one very important thing. They better make the barrel longer than the end of the pump tube. Why? So the people that want to add the TKO and such moderators to the gun.
That’s why I have been a fan of the Co2 pump and pcps that Crosman makes that I mentioned. The interchangeability. If the 362 has been designed on that aspect I’ll be happy. Don know about the rest off the world. But somebody beside me has to like the idea.
Gunfun1,
Every once in awhile you discover that there are other people out there that think pretty much along the same lines that you do. It can be downright scary at times!
Yes, Yes, Yes, on your comments above. A rifle based on the 1300 series would be about as close to the” perfect” all around–multipurpose–gets used every day weapon that some folks are looking for. Simple operation, easy to work on, great parts availability and reliable. And as you pointed out, just add the steel breech and adding a scope would be a breeze. What’s not to like about that?
The sad thing to me is that Crosman made that rifle for many years! That’s right, the venerable ” 101 “. Other than the non scopeability aspect, and yes I know it can be done, it was as close to the best all around pellet rifle I’ve ever used! Now mind you, that’s in my own humble opinion.
But, I,m beginning to believe a 362 style rifle would be even better. Except for the trigger group it’s just as simple as a 101. Parts availability would be much better. I like walnut but for dragging through the bushes I’ll take the composite stock every time. Oh it’s going to rain——so what. Need camo, that’s what a little spray paint is for. As far as total simplicity, what else can you keep running with a seal kit–jug of pellgun oil–a 1/8th in. punch–screwdriver. Don’t even need a hammer for the punch, a good sized flat rock will work just fine. Add that steel breech and this becomes a very serviceable everyday go to work rifle. Got squirrels–no problem, got blackbirds–no problem, Got groundhogs at close range–no problem, just want to spend the afternoon plinking–no problem!
I read somewhere they claim a MV around 800FPS. I’ll believe that when I see it. My 101’s work just fine somewhere around 550-600FPS and that’s with AA16GR’s. Bumps off most hairy critters just fine. Heck, most of the time I only use 02 or 03 pumps for plinking. No need to stress an 80 YR old power plant more than necessary!
That’s enough of my ramblings for now. Hope everyone is having a good weekend!
BobF
BobF
Wouldn’t call it a weapon but for sure the all around plinker pester target modding gun of all time. The 1377/22.
The gun I made weighed at the most unscoped no more than 5 pounds. It was very durable gun and very easy to handle and accurate with a wood stock.. What more could you want.
Oh maybe the walnut stock. I found that walnut stocks are very nice on a hunting gun. They can be touched up with some sand paper and steel wool very easily.
Even synthetic stocks. Beech stocks are the worst especially if they are painted.
Gunfun1,
Sorry, but in my book if it is capable of reaching out and ending somethings or someones existence it’s a weapon. That’s why the good judgement and training of the person pulling that trigger is so important!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BobF
BobF
BobF
Sounds like a blog subject me.
“Is a gun a weapon”
Maybe BB has already done a report on this. But probably really not to much to make a report on. But I bet there could be alot of comments. Bet it would be pretty controversial though. Sounds to me like it would end up having responses like when a “political” subject arises.
But thanks for your opinion.
Gunfun1,
Please don’t get me going today! It’s way too hot outside right now which usually leads to way too much computer time in a nice air conditioned basement.
Would really like to see pic or two of your 1377 pumper rifle! What did the pump tube that you used come off of? Per chance a 140? Was it a Crosman barrel or did you go whole hog on one of those LW’s you like so much? Did you end up
doing any trigger mods? So many questions, so little time.
I’ll leave you with this question: ” is a tooth pic a weapon ” ? Given the right circumstances, YOU BETCHA!
BobF
BobF
I wasn’t going to go there. And almost said this on my last comment. A car or even radio control airplane could be a weapon. It all depends on how its used. Not what it is. And agree it’s all about who is controlling it. Just because its a gun it shouldn’t be labeled what its used for. And yes it’s hot and humid here today. And setting in my air conditiond breezeway as we speek. 🙂
And don’t have a picture of it. It was real hard to post a picture in the old days on the blog. So I would do a short video on YouTube and post the link. Well that link is no good anymore.
So what I did is I took a Discovery barrel. The steel breech and put it on a 1377.
Then I took the Discovery trigger assembly and put it on the 1377. (And special note: the gen1 Marauder rifle trigger assembly will bolt on to the 1377 also)
Next I cut the fore stock off the Discovery stock to make the new 1377 pump handle. (Had to rout out that part of the stock to get it to fit the 1377 pump arm assembly.
Then bolted the back half of the Discovery stock to the 1377.
So made it was all made from existing modern parts from those 2 guns. The Maximus can also be used in place of the Discovery. So you could have the same pumper wearing synthetic clothing.
And if you must say something about the weapon thing go ahead. But I would rather drop the subject.
Gunfun1,
Ah, the light finally came on after your description above. It’s a disco upper on a 1377 lower with the trigger tweak. If they bolted right up that really is great interchangeability. I was going on the premise that you had somehow mated a longer stroke pump assembly to the 1377 for easier and less pumping. Do you remember what the FPS was with the longer barrel and existing 1377 valve setup?
Sorry for all the questions but sometimes I find fiddling and fixing to be just as much fun as shooting airguns!
BobF
BobF
I have a 1377 right now with the shoulder stock Crosman sales on it and a Maximus barrel and steel breech. The Maximus barrel is about a inch or so longer than a Discovery barrel so the gun I have right now might be a hair faster than the old gun I made from the Discovery. But its getting around 700 fps with 10.34 JSB pellets. And my chrony always seems to be a little faster than other peoples chronys. So probably around 650 fps might be the real number.
BobF,
Not much so far, but it looks to be quite promising.
https://hardairmagazine.com/news/new-crosman-362-and-drifter-multi-pump-pneumatics/
B.B. and the Readership into LEATHER,
I think i have posted this resource before: http://cwmarsh.com/about-us/
Leather is SO Twenty First Century!
No not for THAT! Or riding or shooting leathers either…just for your airgun sealing needs!
shootski
Shootski
Stop it.
😉
Gunfun1,
LOl!
shootski
Shootski
🙂
I have a MKll BSA Airsporter (1959-65) with the original leather piston seal and spring which is still going strong shooting at 10 ft lbs
A C,
I have at least three ladies around here with leather seals. I do not have problems with them at all.
BB and friends,
Leather seals are super easy to make. I made a new one for my FEG Telly Relum in minutes. I had scrap leather and circle cutter. Cut out the outside circ, then the inside one. Fit to the piston ( a screw and fat plastic washer ) and then work into a cup shape. Engine oil to soften. After n tins of pellets you cannot tell the difference between the original seal and my one. Leather was from a craft scrap bin, cost a few hundred cents. Have enough to last for a thousand years easy. The parachute/bellows seal is great as it works using the internal air pressure to seal it, so if there is an issue with the seal you can rework it, even if damaged you can recover. Try that with a synthetic seal! If my Gamo Cf-s ever gives up the ghost with the synthetic seal I will retro fit a leather one. Leather! : – ) Robert.
RobertA,
Excellent points.
Once upon a time there was a rush to convert piston seals from leather to synthetic. Aftermarket fabricators sold adapters to accommodate new synthetic seals and some even offered new pistons that accepted synthetic seals to ease the conversion in your old springer.
Do you know what many owners of these old springers learned?
Their old leather piston seal shot better, i.e., more FPS. Why? Because leather conformed better/sealed the compression tube better than a synthetic seal. Out of round ID’s in tubes are common even in newer guns. Have little doubt that many newer springers would benefit from swapping their synthetic seal to a leather seal.
Kevin,
Very interesting!
When you think about it the leather seal is sort of a sliding flap valve in the round. Once pressure has built up it really seals and it has quite a lot of contact surface are with the ID. What is there not to like? New is not always better!
When I ever come across a spare Gamo piston I will go leather with it and compare the two.
Ah ha!
So we have a sub class of sproingers! : Sproinger: Leather sealed ! ( SLS )
And how about Sproinger: Not Scoped ? ( SNS )
The mind boggles! – Robert.
RobertA,
I have several SLS here. Most of my sproingers are SNS. In fact, I only have one SS.
RobertA
Maybe the leather seal has less drag compared to a synthetic seal and its picking the fps up because of a faster piston speed.
I just got through asking BB about would a synthetic seal make leather seal guns shoot faster.
I never have done that before but now I would like to try for myself to see if that is true. Guess I got to get a gun with a leather seal first though. Probably unlikely to happen though. Already got to many guns again. Time to start thinning the heard aagain actually. Problem is the ones I have now are all accurate shooters. And I done learned my lesson about getting rid of accurate guns. Don’t is the lesson.
RR, GF1, SS, Kev,
Do I buy the BSA Model D ??? It is S. LS. NS. UL. TB. NP. PWWI etc )
( Sproinger, leather seal, no scope, tap breech, no plastic, pre world war one …)
I would not be surprised if a leather seal rides over a thin film of lubricant while sealing, whereas the synth seal may tend to barge through … this is all conjecture as I have not the faintest idea. One thing is for darned sure: I can make a new leather seal!
and yes I was thinking about the manufacturing side of seals. The hardest part is choosing the right piece of leather, so that is material sorting, if you cast your seals and you have a very few imperfect ones then a quick QC is all you need. Paying a real person to sort out hides is not the cheapest way! But then is it always about money? ( Yes it is! ) That website that does the leather seals is right. They need to made into an national treasure. Do you really want an phone for controlling your car? NO ! We want Bakelite rocker switches! Wooden crank handles and polished Dural!
I wonder if there is a market for hand made leather air seals…… would be marginal. Or would it? One cup of coffee and the rambling starts! : – ) Robert.
BSA Model D? I have a Lincoln Jeffries Model BSA (1906). It is my absolute favorite air rifle. It will be the very last one to go. It hangs over the fireplace.
AirgunSpares out of the UK sells leather seals, cup shaped with special washer and screw. There is a market, but not very big.
RR,
Yes, it’s the same one. serial : 20285
I am a few hours out. will be coming in hot, brace for impact, clear the decks, actions stations etc. I am going to cut it fine. Very fine. Super very hecking darn fine. I would be quite happy if I got it but the auction process can be “dramatic”. Hopefully all the other interested people are out to lunch. Literally : – ) Robert.
Kevin and RobertA,
To start with, I really like the leather sealed sproingers. Many of the gals here at RRHFWA use them. I think the main issues arise when you go to the higher velocities. Dependent on what type of oil is used on the leather seal, with the increase of velocities you have an increased issue with detonation. If you strictly use a silicone oil for your leather seal, you may greatly reduce this possibility. I would indeed like to see some experimentation along these lines. Perhaps it can be shown that leather works better.
Now as to why the synthetic seals? Simple. Cost. Making synthetic seals by the thousands is much cheaper than making them from leather.
Huh. Business must be real good at Pyramyd AIR. They are no longer open on Saturdays. Ah well. I will just have to wait until Monday to find out what they want to do about this package.
RR
So the 2240 ended up getting there after you canceled the order.
I mentioned to you that would happen. I bet they tell you to keep it.
GF1,
We shall see. I have already been refunded. If they do make noises, I think I can work out a better deal.
RR
Let me know what happens. If you don’t want to here on the blog shoot me a email.
RR,
I am not keeping up with the action… what is happening??? Robert.
RobertA
And now days you can print your own synthectic seals too with one of those fancy 3D printers among a thousand more other things with one. If a person knew what they was doing you could make some money with those 3D printers.
GF1,
Oh we are all now cross threading our posts. Would take a combo lathe milling machine over a 3D printer any day. with the resurgence in leather seals and brass hardware…. real wood .. amazing steel alloy…. who wants plastic ??? Robert.
RobertA
Been a machinist for 37 years now. Worked with more steel and made things than could be imagined.
The next future machine shops will include 3D printing. And not only in plastic. I could see a nice pole barn with about 20 3D printers all running at the same time. A person could start thier own shop with a modest amount of money.
We shall see. Time will tell.
Robert,
Buy it. 🙂
BB
BB,
I am watching the auction!
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/marketplace/sports/hunting-shooting/air-guns-parts/air-rifles/listing/3144111707?bof=pDO8PSQJ
It looks like such a great example AND the carved retailers name is just awesome. But I am pretty sure I will get pipped at the post, this is the way here. The ambush sniping starts milliseconds before the finish line… you think your are safe and then all heck breaks out.
I really do like the lines of this rifle, would fit on my bicycle for a jaunt down to the rabbit patch. A tweed jacket and flat cap next…. Rabbit stew with dumplings! and spuds. : – ) robert.
Robert,
You only pay for it one time. You own it always. 😉
BB
BB,
Seriously. 2 hours to go and no bids. I sense a bidding ambush. I am imagining taking it to the range. Mouths would fall open. I bet it’s darn fine to shoot, the tap loading… so interesting! Fingers crossed! Robert.
BB,
Auction drama!
I am bidding on a BSA .177 Model D in NZ. Well I went to log in on my other lap top to bid on the auction and …. the auction is c l o s e d . What? I cannot bid on it! Blood pressure goes sky high. The auction is still on in the search ??? but closed in the actual page. Huh?
Went back to my net book and managed to place a bid! I am leading. I am the only bidder… But there is something very wrong with the auction website.
Oh no, is this going to slip out of my fingers? The auction has conflicting information, on one page it says it is closed as of Saturday and another page says it finishes on Sunday…. Crazy! I have no idea what is going on, I have never seen this before. Sounds a bit like the new blog style.
Well the upside is that maybe no one else can bid on it ??? I am eating my fingernails. Robert.
and that’s a fail. Way out bid by a robot bidder. That stuff should be banned. Drat. Robert.
It can get confusing around here sometimes, especially when we are not allowed to respond to a particular reply.
RobertA,
Something else you should know about many of the old gals. They are not very powerful. That BSA is the great granddaddy of the modern Olympic 10 meter air rifles. It was designed for target shooting at 10 yards. It only shoots at about 6 FPE.
It is an absolutely awesome airgun, but not a hunter.
RobertA,
That is the way of it. According to the link, there were 28 watching it and 20 bids. You have to bid as I much as you are willing to pay. If the bidding goes higher, oh well.
Sometimes these dudes in the UK have these old BSAs.
https://www.airgunspares.com/home
A bit of anecdotal history. The inventor of these old BSAs, Lincoln Jeffries, immigrated to New Zealand back in the late 20’s.
RR,
I am not a gambler, when the “autobidding” war starts up I tend to quit. If I had stuck it out I would of probably had a bidding duel with the last guy standing and the price probably would have hit the roof. I think the price was good, they got a deal, I kept my money.
Regarding LJ, that is very interesting!
Iooking at the power of the rifle, surely a decent spring would bring it up to a reasonable power? The trigger looks like the major weak point ie, if you make the main spring stroinger the trigger becomes heavier, being a single lever latch type.
I must confess I was a might short when I threw my toys out of the cot over the auction. If I had stuck in there…. who knows. The specimen looked very nice and quite unruffled. I hope the person who purchased it takes it out to the range regularly.
Good grief, I acted like a child! Well, like I said I still have my cash. : – ) Robert.
BB,
Sorry to be a squeaky wheel….
If I click on the link, in my email notification ( and I am not logged into the blog )
the link takes me to the blog, but not to the comment in question. Robert.
RobertA.
It seems that you must be logged onto the blog to see new comments.
Mike
MiAtl.
Well that just seems … disheartening.
Posts should be visible from outside the forum imho. I have seen this on other forums and was equally not impressed, particularly posted pictures. -Robert.
Robert,
I am logged in and the same happens to me.
BB
GF1,
we ran out of replies on that conversation.
3D printing: well yes it is a thing and I agree that it is quick easy etc but shaving off a whisker on a part with your mill/lathe etc is super flexible. And this is where 3D printing/milling crashes and burns. A milling job is a sequence of steps and processes to complete the work. and at any time you can stop, go back etc. Take too much off? Weld some more in and do it again . For “replication” automatic machines are desirable. and this is where the 3D farm comes in. The Boeing metallic monolithic structures they can build that have internal workings etc in one sitting is eye popping for sure. but that machine cannot simply drill a hole in something. even though it’s worth n millions dollars. and we should teach kids the basics on machining. The flexibility is in your own hands. and real metal too. metal treatment is super important too. How many 3D printers have had to stop and consider their work is next to useless… it looks nice, it’s dimensional ok but it’s not made of the best steel, bronze, aluminum etc. A hot rolled I beam is as cheap and cost effective as you can get. A 3D printed one? I doubt it! Drop forged cranks…
They are made that way for very good reasons! And you can make colossal ones. They will be the best!
Cutting grinding drilling tapping pressing casting forging…. all amazing! We can’t afford to lose this mass of technology and learning. It cost too much! : – ) Robert.
RobertA
The 3D printer doesn’t have to drill a hole. You program the hole to be there as the printer is printing.
GF1
Roger that.
You give me two options, one: a 3D printer that extrudes hot plastic and two: a reasonable combination mill lathe. I will take the latter.
There must be kids right about now who are starting to wonder why cars are not 3D printed out of plastic. and they are going to be shocked to learn that cars are literally stamped out of rolls of steel . Like they were pretty much right back in the beginning. and whats more they will probably be shocked at just how much engineering goes into making a complex high volume manufactured product like a car. Once the hoopla settles down you might find some of the 3D printing crowd will discover actual real machines and processes. and super amazing materials. Heck they may even learn to use a drill press to make holes in things… ( one coffee so far… ) : – ) Robert.
RobertA
Do a You Tube search for 3D printed plastic cars. Some pretty cool stuff actually out there. I happened to run across the videos the other day.
Tell me what you find and what you think about it when you get a chance.
I saw a bunch of stuff. I am not surprised that the “grew up on lego” kids think that just because they can make it means it’s awesome. Cherry picking facts to bolster your reason for funding is a classic too. Just. you. wait. the back lash against PLASTIC will mow down whole chunks of industry. The goons who are betting on plastic welding are in for a shock. Far out you may as well make a car out of wood chips and urea glue. The Russians used stabilized wood in their WW2 AC’s and hey it’s water proof, corrosion resistant and made out of stuff they have a lot of! Wood! Aren’t we supposed to be flying jet cars by now? Stamp me out a steel body, strap an electric motor on it and we are done. I would even use lead acid batteries because I don’t need to drive more than 100 k on one charge. If I had the money I would put a electric motor in my Nissan. Done! Retrofitting older cars is a big deal now. One off printing is one thing but printing millions is just a joke. Industry knows how to do it’s thing. Sheet steel bodies are fast to make and cheap. One die can make heaps of stampings. But hey, I ride a bicycle to the range with my human powered rifle in a mountaineering backpack! I do have to laugh when I ride past the gridlocked SUV’s 4×4’s etc. Heck I might even be a greenie deep down. : O Robert.
RobertA
Don’t know how it is over where your at but over here they are trying to phase in all electric cars in the not to distant future.
I just saw a article about the Ford built Mustang Shelby 1400 and it did 8 seconds in the 1/4 mile at around a 171 mph. Its suppose to be 1500 horsepower. All good except no good old faisioned smell of fuel or engine sound. At least you could still smell the rubber when they did thier burn out. I like the hybrid and all electric stuff. But I still love the old muscle cars.
GF1,
Same over here. Electric cars will haul ass somewhat. No question there. Maximum torque at locked rotor, just like steam. and they will get badder. It’s all about supplying current to the motor. and the motors they use at the moment are pretty small. Some one will make a drag car that will be insane. if you can get current to the motor and the motor can handle it then it’s about keeping the tires on the road. and heck you can make the body of the car into a solar panel. it will at least trickle charge the battery. The real technology is in the motors and the batteries. If you can make a better motor… or better battery chemistry… beats a 3D printed chassis by a long long long way. Energy density is key here. BUT when a battery decides to go AWOL you better get out of the car asap AND not have it parked in your garage…. they are spectacular. Petrol at normal temps does not spontaneously combust but a battery with issues…. well that’s serious trouble. Every cell needs a temp sensor. If it goes over the line you bail out. The safety issues are very serious. An electric car blowing up in a tunnel? several crashing at once? A lot of the down side of electric gets glossed over. Now electric trams, trolley buses and trains are really good. Have been in use for decades. Overhead wire trucks short haul will be a deal. If you see a pile up with a tesla you need to get the people out asap. Essentially the battery goes off like a solid propellant rocket. People will learn that the batteries are just as dangerous as petrol. If not more so. A damaged battery is a liability. They are not like your old style zinc batteries! Ask the Radio Control crowd about li-po batteries and fire risk… all of them will have a story! ok I will shut up now. : – ) Robert.
RobertA
I started flying radio controlled air planes around 1972. I flew all fuel back then as in nitromethane. Have had all sort of different planes.
I switched over to electric about 13 years ago when the out runner motors and lipoly batteries started coming about. So yep very familiar with electric motors and such. The new electric motors and batteries are way better than what they use to be no doubt. Oh and by the way flying RC is maybe a little more fun than shooting air guns. Maybe. 🙂
GF1,
I am a RC newbie. I use picasim and RCdeskpilot to practice. I don’t call it RC flying I call it RC crashing. The thrust of a tiny motor really blew my mind. I could not believe it. I am getting back into it after a long pause. Just shelled out for a helicopter. The heli is easier to fly due to eyesight issues. Will have my training wheels on for sure. Li-po batteries are amazing. Bought a HZ piper cub and crashed that more times than I had air minutes. It’s 50% glue now. Have a baby bipe to crash yet. Biding my time on that one. Practicing hovering is enough for me at the moment. I lawn darted my other plane after signal loss. I was not very happy. bought new gear! It was traveling when it went in, like a javelin. Darn it. RC stuff is crazy. I am not drone friendly though, too much “stabilisation” and no real flying skills. Even heli flying is all stabilized. Heading lock is not flying. ha ha. I have been cutting my own wings, still have yet to fly one. Too many other hobbies! I need to organise them. : – ) Robert.
RobertA
Go to the very bottom. It wouldn’t let me post a picture up here.
This beggars a question. Could some enterprising young man do a startup. Leather seals R us? Hmmmmmmmm.
B.B. and Readership,
Since we have derailed from the Blog specific topic…
A few posts ago we were talking about regulator stability and life span this morning i was looking for something else and found this nugget:
“This is a belleville spring washer being compressed between two plates. The contact between the washer and the plates is implemented with type 4 sliding interfaces and the load is applied with a displacement boundary on the top plate. The displacement boundary loading is more stable than a pressure boundary loading. The forces at a given displacement can readily be found while post-processing with ORION. This particular spring cannot be loaded to the flat position and remain elastic. For the spring to remain elastic, this spring should be redesigned.”
The takeaway appears to be that in a Regulator if the input pressure exceeds a level that flattens one or more of the Bellville Springs that Regulator then fails to meet specifications from that point on at any input pressure.
That means that the stacking of multiple Bellville springs (although giving the appearance of simple additive performance) is more complex than we might assume.
shootski
RobertA
I have electric helicopters too. Probably about 16 years ago I had .30 size nitro helicopter that I learned to fly helicopters with.
And yep gotta flight simulator for my lap top that I haven’t used for years. I need to dig that out again. It was fun to mess with.
But here is a picture of my most recent electric plane. It’s a YF22 with a pusher prop in the middle of the fuselage. Pretty fun to fly. It will slow down pretty slow. I can get the nose high and fly it on the stall. Fun stuff.
GF1,
Oh yes that foam board flite test stuff. They really put on a good show those guys.
Try out Picasim with the “le fish” model and turn the wind up ( it’s free ) . Slope soaring. I bought a Art-tech usb TX that is cheap and works ( no batteries needed ). I am still learning about helis and the technical stuff: balancing blades etc. Goin’g to try to fly without the gyro. If I can hover and move around a bit out of ground effect I will be happy. My little heli gets into vortex ring state very easy. It just sucks itself down but it’s a tough little bird, bounces off the deck. My new heli project will be here tomorrow. It’s a “real” one. with collective pitch. The TX /RX is crystals at 35 MHZ. old school! The art of flying a real heli … well your really need to know your stuff. Those drones with FPV etc are “cool” but they just can fly themselves. So where is the art of flying? Controlling a squirrelly expensive work of art that can destroy itself in seconds…. now that is real model flying!
In the picture: that’s an Art tech falcon 3D. It’s old but looks like good condition. It’s cheap enough to crash without crying too much. and it’s got the good stuff that real heli’s like. Will sort out my radio gear into, I am never going inverted so I can ditch the 3D nonsense. That will give me better control over the blade pitch. At some stage I will swap out the in runner motor with something that runs cool. Learning the art of setting everything up will be interesting. It’s a bit more than suck it and see I gather. Right I better push off. My Dad ( 75 ) is waiting for his cup of coffee. : – ) Robert.
RobertA
Yep learning the setup is half the fun. And don’t forget your blade tracking.
And now I mostly fly 3D with air planes. I have a flat epp foam sukhoi that is about 40 inch wing span. It’s got a out runner motor on it and uses a 9×3.5 prop. It ways about a pound and a half and has about 4 times the power to wieght ratio. I can hover the plane in one spot with the nose pointed up at a little over a quarter throttle. Hit the throttle all the way and it will go vertical till it’s out of sight if I let it. And again fun stuff.
GF1,
yes set up is going to be a learning curve. and then TX programming… yikes. and ESC programming… phew.
Nice one on the Сухой , prop hanging is pretty radical. I will dust off my pile of broken planes and decided what to proceed with.
What I need to read is a primer on heli set up. any ideas? Range night tonight, not enjoying it. The powder burners are there. and they talk and the range officer barks…. I can’t relax into the situation. 20 shots then it’s over. I would prefer to relax and shoot 200 shots and have a cup of tea. and not listen to people yakking. It’s a bit daft. if only there was a great air club here…. never mind. and I am the only air rifle shooter and, the only shooter with peep sights… it’s only 25 yards. ah well. : – ) Robert.
RobertA
I imagine if you search online now days I bet there is alot of videos and such on setting up a collective pitch RC copter.
And I’m so glad I get to shoot at home from my air conditioned and heated breezeway from the house to the attached garage. When everybody is gone doing thier running around or working I have a nice relaxing place to shoot. My closest neighbor is about a 1/4 mile away to the right of me and then it’s all woods and farm fields for about 2 miles in my back yard and about 1-1/2 miles to the left of me.
I almost everyday shoot my air guns out at 100+ yards and in. I have a clear open 500 yards to the creek and woods in the back. Definitely lucky to come about the place.