by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- Luck?
- The name means everything!
- They rushed!
- You want it bad?
- No time to do everything
- Sig ASP20
- Launch of the Benjamin Discovery
- Let’s keep the name and change the product!
- Let’s keep the product and change the name!/li>
- The lesson?
I apologize to reader RidgeRunner. I had planned to start the test of the replacement Benjamin Fortitude rifle today and I told him so yesterday. But a comment from reader Geo791 changed my mind and got me thinking about today’s report. Here is what he said.
“B.B.
Wow! You are certainly unlucky at getting good PPP airguns to review. The Urban had accuracy issues due to flashing on the baffles in the moderator. The Gauntlet has poor accuracy for some unknown reason. The Fortitude leaked air and had to be sent back. Don’t remember now what the issues were with the Stormrider but as I recall it had problems too. It’s not looking good for these price point PCPs, and the chances of getting a good one don’t appear too good either. Well, as they say, it is what it is. Too bad the Gauntlet you received was not good. Based on your findings, I would not take a chance on one. I would add that my Urban has been excellent so far.
Geo”
Luck?
You said it, George. I have certainly been unlucky. Or, have I? What are the odds that four air rifles — the Urban, Gauntlet, Fortitude and Stormrider — would ALL have problems?
I will answer that question. The odds they would all have problems are extremely small.
UNLESS!
It is the “unless” that I will discuss today.
The name means everything!
You may recall that I told you a horror story about bad steaks at Gordon Ramsey’s Steakhouse in Las Vegas this year. If not, read this report. Scroll down to the Las Vegas section.
Some people think they don’t understand what I’m saying about the importance of a name but they haven’t thought it through. To a coffee drinker the name Starbucks means a lot. Good or bad, it carries a lot of weight. When you get a cola soda in the U.S., it’s either Coke or Pepsi. You may accept either one but many people have a preference. Your computer is probably either a Windows or a Mac. And, if asked to change to the other platform, you would probably have some issues. So, don’t tell me that names aren’t important. You may have dulled your senses to reality, but names mean a lot to all of us.
They rushed!
And here is what is behind all the problems we are seeing with the price point PCPs. Each company has rushed their gun to market. They moved too fast and left some issues unaddressed. I won’t name names because in this case, all of them have done it. Either they wanted to be first or they wanted to get out before the other guy(s) captured too much of the market.
There are several offshore airgun companies right now trying to knock off AirForce Airguns smallbore and big bore rifles. Why? Because people are buying them. If you can’t beat them, copy them.
Remember Bizarro Superman? He looks something like Superman, but he’s bad. Whenever you see a knockoff of a famous airgun, think of Bizarro Superman, because the chances are the copiers got it wrong in many ways.
You want it bad?
I used to work in the telecommunications world where unique systems were designed and built. These unique systems might have several million lines of code (software computer instructions) that had to interface with software in other systems the designers might not even know about. Whenever the bosses would try to rush the design process, wise software engineers would say to them, “You want it real bad? Because it’s bad right now!”
No time to do everything
The Columbia space shuttle blew up on reentry because NASA did not make time for the astronauts to space walk to examine the left wing that had been impacted by a large piece of foam on launch. They had video of the impact as the shuttle was ascending, but no way of knowing the extent of damage without a spacewalk. And they just didn’t have the time, because the schedule was too tight. There was too much science to do — things they needed back on earth for analysis. They didn’t even bother telling the crew who had no way of knowing that anything had happened.
After the explosion over Dallas, NASA had all the time in the world. And they needed it because the pieces of the shuttle were scattered over a wide section of east Texas.
Sig ASP20
We also have a splendid example of the opposite thing. Sig Sauer has invented a very remarkable breakbarrel air rifle they call the ASP20. You read about it in my reports about My day at Sig Sauer. They have taken their time to get this rifle right before bringing it out. You have been reading about it since the SHOT Show this past January and here were are 10 months later and it’s still not out. That’s because Sig Air is doing everything to make sure that it’s right. Because this is the first air rifle they have designed and built in-house. It’s not something they buy from a Chinese manufacturer and put their name on. If it’s right, they get a million dollars worth of goodwill from the airgun marketplace (people like you). If it’s not right they get the instant reputation of a company that can’t do things right, and the chat forums will beat their drums day and night to tell everyone. The folks at Sig know that and are paying attention to the details.
Launch of the Benjamin Discovery
Back when Crosman brought out the Benjamin Discovery, I saw the same thing. Ed Schultz, who was their lead engineer back then, showed me their production line where they filled each and every rifle with air, watching for leaks over a 24-hour period. Once they knew they could do it right they no longer had to do that, and they couldn’t afford to because it ate up all their profit, but Ed told me they were very concerned that the launch went right. They knew they were under a spotlight.
Today nobody give a second thought to buying a PCP from Crosman, because they have proven they can build them.
We did the same thing at AirForce when the Condor came out in 2004. We tested each one of the first 100 rifles by serial number and recorded its velocity with a .22 caliber Crosman Premier pellet. The pellet had to leave the gun at 1,200 f.p.s. or more. We didn’t want someone getting on a chat forum telling the world how their gun was wrong.
HOWEVER
The Fortitude, Gauntlet, Urban tests I have conducted have given buyers doubts about all price point PCPs (PPP). Are they really such a gamble? Well, three out of the three that I got to test have fallen short in some way.
I intentionally left the Stormrider off that list because the one I tested was not a PPP. But the new one is. And it comes to market under the shadow of the first one that in my tests was okay but not astounding. Accuracy was okay. The trigger was okay, and the magazine was stiff. It was not a failure, but it also wasn’t a PPP. The Gen II Stormrider has to live in the shadow of this first gun. What I’m saying is it might have been worthwhile to wait until all the features that are now available were there.
Let’s keep the name and change the product!
Some companies realize their name has a powerful influence on the buying patterns of the public. The greatest brand/product failure of all time was when, on April 23, 1985, Coke decided to come out with a changed formula they proudly called New Coke. The product was a disaster that ultimately cost Coke the lead in the cola wars. Time magazine called it “the Edsel of the ’80s”. It lasted three months and changed the future of the company forever.
When a company has a name that has become so well-recognized as Coke, they need to protect it at all costs. The New Coke disaster tells us that. Of course no airgun company has, or could have, a name as big as Coke. But within the airgun community, names like Weihrauch, Webley and Crosman are equally significant. They are names you don’t want to mess with.
Don’t allow a new product to sully an established name.
Let’s keep the product and change the name!
Want to see the reverse? Which of you works on a Next computer? Never head of it? That’s odd, because Steve Jobs said you would never forget the name. I sure haven’t.
Yes, Steve Jobs, the founder and builder of the greatest computer company the world has ever known, — Apple — once thought the company Next was going to be the greatest. He launched it in 1985. You don’t know it today because it failed to take hold. Despite all the good things that were willed for Next by its creators, the world simply didn’t need it.
So, new name not so good when it applies to a product that’s established.
The lesson?
What’s in a name?
Everything!
A question on the moderators of PPPs – any word on models without them for jurisdictions where they’re not permitted? (In this case, Canada)
I’ve seen airgun models specifically detuned to come in below the firearms muzzle velocity/KE threshold here, so I would think it’s just a matter of having a SKU that removes the baffles or replaces the assembly with a muzzle brake, but I suspect that the focus will be on filling US demand first before moving on to smaller markets – the same way I don’t expect to see any CCI Copper-22 available up here until the California market is completely served.
Chanman819,
Good question. I suppose Canada is on their minds, but due to the sales volume they serve the U.S. first. But a PPP for Canada will probably have different features. The noise at the lower velocity is a lot less for the silencer isn’t required, so where could the savings go? A better trigger perhaps?
Good question.
B.B.
Chanman819,
As you suggest, is is easy enough to remove baffles or replace a moderator with an air-stripper or muzzle-break.
I have a couple of rifles where this has been done. Don’t know if they came from the factory “Canada ready” or if it was done by the local distributor.
The law about moderators on airguns is almost as stupid as the one making blowguns illegal – the bureaucracy that put them in place must have watched too many spy and ninja movies.
Hank
It’s an epidemic of moral panic everywhere. Firearms laws are a paragon of logic compared to rules on the books about knives (look at all the different countries/states/cities with rules about butterfly knives or switchblades), martial arts weapons.
Something about the human condition. You don’t have to look too hard to find people being hysterical about silly things a hundred years or a thousand years ago either.
Chan
Yep you are right.
Ok you have struck a nerve apple is not and has never been the greatest computer company. They love telling the world that they are but history tells the truth not Steve Jobs. They had a stock price that bottomed out below 15 a share before the marketed ipods and that’s important because they did not invent digital music, digital music players, digital music players with hard drives and on and on
Steve Jobs gave himself credit or had it heaped on him and Apple and the hype continues to this day.
Apple computer division has a net loss over the last 20 years the company got where it is today from ipods and smartphones which started out as a PDA with phone function and the only real addition using a touchscreen. You know what i have no desire to fight with the fanboys, but when i did get back into air rifles once you look at Beeman it becomes easy to see the similarities.
Mike Ogden,
Apple users tend to be fans. They are locked into an ecosystem that works for them. Windows users are the majority though, while Linux system users are in the minority (though every year it is hoped that it will be the year of the Linux desktop). Despite the claims of having no viruses in the Apple OS there certainly are enough in existence to require vigilance. Apple used to do polished work for their users but nowadays you can hear the grumblings from the old timers of the days of innovation being lost. All old companies have to change. Look at Microsoft, previously they spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt about Linux but now they are part of the orchestra promoting it.
Airgun companies are like every other business. They see a trend and they see if they can catch the wave successfully. Diana is trying to catch the China wave to introduce airgunners to their brand at a lower price point. Whether they will be successful or not will depend on how good their Quality Assurance/Control program is in the production line.
Siraniko
I’ve never owned a laptop that wasn’t an Apple, the last two desktop computers I set up for my mum were Apple, the only media player I’ve ever owned that wasn’t an Apple was my first one, purchased before the iPod had come out, the only tablet in the house is an Apple… and I’m probably never going to buy another Apple product in the future. They’ve lost me because it seems that they have steadily elevated form over function and the company seems to regard anyone who is unhappy with any of their product’s features as fool who is unworthy of their magnificent technology.
On a brighter note I’m impressed by BB’s tale of Crosman’s quality control efforts – so many companies wouldn’t take the money and manpower to do that and would (apparently) prefer to risk having faulty products hit the market and possibly destroy any chance of long-term success for a new line.
Nowhere,
Never warmed to Apple products due to their closed ecosystem. Then again their relatively high prices are also another deterrent for me.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Read “closed ecosystem” as extremely proprietary and not upgradeable. Yes, Apple products cost twice as much as a comparable Windows machine. Cost of Apple parts are through the roof, if you can even find them. For example, a new battery for an Apple laptop would cost $85 and about $30 for a Windows machine. Memory is soldered onto the system board so no upgrading the memory either.
See my comment above to Nowhere.
Opps…see below my comment to Mike.
Geo791,
I heartily agree with you. That’s why I’ve been dipping my toes into Linux lately. It can answer 90% of my needs. The last 10% seems more of a file transfer/format issue actually.
Siraniko
Mike,
Your comments regarding Apple products are “on the money”. I have worked in computer repair for over 20 years part time as a hobby. I had never worked on an Apple product and always told anyone asking me to work on one, no I do not work on Apples. I have always known that Apple products were over the top expensive. You could buy a Windows machine with the same capabilities as an Apple for half the cost. Also, Apple machines are extremely proprietary. They are virtually not upgradeable. You pay big bucks and when you want to upgrade to the newer technology, you have to dispose of your old machine and buy a new one.
Well, last week a friend asked me to do repair on his grand daughter’s Apple MacBook Air. I told him I would give it a go, but no promises. She could not afford to take it to an Apple repair facility….$$$$$!
The problem with the MacBook was that it would intermittently shut down and sometimes it would take multiple attempt to restart it. The first thing I wanted to do was to remove the battery. On an Apple you have to remove the back cover to get to the battery. Guess what? The screws holding the back cover on are proprietary. They are 5P pentalobe (five rounded points) shaped. Luckily I had one of those bits in my repair toolkit. Apple really does not want anyone but Apple doing repairs on these products. I was able to disconnect the battery and start the MacBook with just the power adapter connected. Then after reconnecting the battery it seemed to work fine again. So it was a very easy repair. Left handers would like these Apple computers because the windows control buttons are all on the left instead of on the right like all Windows machines. The price on that little MacBook Air was over $1000 five years ago. It has a smallish 128 GB drive and was mostly full. She had to transfer her videos and music off from it to get enough space for it to run efficiently. Nice little laptop but WAY over priced. Apple…no thanks.
Nice to know i am not the only one.
B.B.,
Very nice! Get it right coming out of the gate,… or take your chances and roll the dice.
On names,.. I would expect a functioning gun from Crosman and Benjamin. It won’t be the absolute greatest, but they will work and can be made better fairly easy. I never had had a Diana,… but when I re-entered the air gun market several years ago,.. the name Diana was iconic. Still is. Now,.. they are messing with the Stormrider and Chaser and the likes. To me,.. that seems like a massive roll of the dice. Something branded Umerex means nothing to me. I expect nothing. Hats off to the SIG model of doing it.
With all of the mergers, buy-out’s, re-branding and top makers offering a tier 2, budget line of product,…. it is darn tuff to keep up these days on who is who and what is what.
Either way, like you said,… get it wrong and death will come swiftly. It is not the Old West anymore when word of mouth comes through printed publications and takes months to get around. Now it is type,.. hit post,.. and done.
Good Day to one and all,…… Chris
BB,
No need to apologize. This is a wonderful and timely blog. It is quite obvious that so many of these have been rushed to market. That is why I wait 50+ years before I buy a new model airgun.
No seriously, the market competition can be quite stiff and the sad part about it is that it does not need to be that way. Everyone is out for the quick kill. The reason for such is the business model of the mega conglomerate corporations. Crosman, Diana, Umarex, these are all parts of bigger corporations that are expected to provide financial returns on the investments. If they do not see this return, there will be a house cleaning or the flagging company will be sold off. Usually there will be a house cleaning anyway, with yes men and women brought in to replace the old guard.
I think these airgun companies’ times have come and gone. It is possible for them to come back and I do hope they do such. What it will take is the dedication and determination to build the best and corporate leadership that will allow such.
You know it makes me think. I wonder if the car company’s have many as we are calling it “lemons” now days. I wonder if the higher priced loaded models have more problems then the lower cost price point cars.
That’s another thing. I have seen high dollar and everything in between air guns have the same problems as these price point pcps.
I know throughout time that there have been some “quality” air guns not get as good of results as the lower cost guns that BB has reviewed.
The problem is when there is production machining and assembly happening there are variables that happen not only in air guns but also other things produced in the world.
And I have to say that there will always be lemon’s. Pretty slim odds of it not happening.
Hmm maybe the price point pcp’s need to go away?
B.B.
I think you got it right when you said, “Are they really such a gambol? ”
Do you mean gamble or garbage?
Has Diana ruined its name with all the RWS and Chinese stuff?
-Y
Yogi,
You caught me! I corrected the spelling.
Thanks,
B.B.
Yogi
Needless to say I don’t gamble on the expensive guns anymore after previous exsperiances.
They are mechanical. They all can brake no matter what they charge for them.
Yes, but the quality ones are worth fixing, the cheap ones just occupy limited landfill space.
-Y
Yogi
Well I have to beg your pardon.
It all depends on how well they repeat accuracy and how well they hold up.
A fair chance is what I’m talking about.
It can go either way on any gun.
Have you only had springers? Or have you had other types. What others have you owned beside springers?
Yogi,
Throughout the years, Diana has risen and fallen several times. I do think that the new owners of Diana intend to use the name to try to increase market shares, but will end up once again sullying the reputation that Diana has managed to rebuild in recent times. As with Beeman, I do believe Diana will be entering a dark time.
RR
Diana still makes good air guns.
Probably better models now then your 46E you got from me. I do not like the design of that gun. A taperd breech. Wonder who thought of that. How the heck do you load a pellet equally in that gun. And I even broke the cocking arm when I owned it. And the gun was very gritty cocking. Yeah I know tune in a tube. But that don’t fix design problems. Why would you need to goop the fun up to perform??
Anyway look over the Diana guns. Minus the new Chaser and others in that line they have come out with.
Soon enough people will know what Diana’s to buy and which ones not too.
Now it’s up to sales to tell Diana what to keep doing and up to Diana to continue or what works or not.
It’s all about how soon smart enough they will be.
GF1,
I understand exactly what you are saying. The issue is not the quality of the German made airguns versus the Chinese made airguns. It has nothing to do with airguns. It will be the desired profit margin the company returns to the new owners. I saw it at GE and I am seeing it now.
BB
This report should be studied in every Accounting 101 class in every college and technical school. But you can bet it won’t be.
Deck
B.B.,
I’ve been thinking of this very subject — how quickly a brand can fall in the public’s perception because of a splashy failure.
I imagine Sig is being especially careful with their new venture into springer air rifles because of their bungled release of the P320. First, they were sometimes discharging when dropped. Then Sig’s quick fix of that problem made the action unreliable, trigger-group failures, and feeding issues. A number of owners reported parts wearing out after 2000-3000 rounds fired. Many of the problems were first reported by the U.S. military. The Pentagon might be rethinking the big contract. There must be a reliability-based escape clause in there somewhere.
A lot of reporting (real reporting from legitimate firearm news outlets) says that many pre-existing series, such as P226, are now experiencing failures in function and premature wearing of parts that did not occur in the past.
I imagine they are being very careful to get the air rifles right, because Sig Sauer’s image is currently about the same as Hi-Point.
Michael
Name recognition is a foundation of capitalism.
It’s always intrigued me as to how much time and effort is needed to create a respected brand name. Equally perplexing is how eager many companies are to either dilute or tarnish their name brand by introducing inferior/cheaper products.
A very wise man once explained this potentially suicidal phenomenon for businesses as their conscious and greedy decision to, “continue to harvest the energy that brand name has built up.”
Car manufacturers lead the way in this “something for every budget philosophy”. Diana, Beeman, Winchester, Colt, etc. have made similar decisions for their airgun offerings.
I’m not sure that these “entry level” pcp’s sully reputations significantly. I think many knowledgeable airgunners expect the necessity to tweak these guns to make them everything they can be. That’s the “price” for the initial discount in purchasing and a bonus for many airgunners that prefer to “tinker”.
I’m reminded of a QB 78 (cheap chinese CO2 gun) that I bought many years ago. Ron Robinson converted this to HPA, installed a regulator, put on a custom stock and won second place in the Nationals with this gun. It has a crazy accurate barrel.
On the flip side, I shot my friends new .25 caliber FX Crown this weekend for the first time. High end airgun by anyone’s standards. He had to send it back for work twice to get it working properly (lots of moving parts to address including external hammer spring and external regulator adjustments). This weekend is the first time he had shot it since receiving it back the second time. The gun worked flawlessly. This .25 caliber FX Crown was shockingly accurate at 50 yards when we were shooting in strong wind. Very impressive. Point is, that even high end guns don’t always come working flawlessly from the factory.
Kevin
Thanks for commenting. I relate to what you said.
It’s funny when someone judges then ends up in that boat and see what happens then.
High end, low end. Mechanical things fail.
How much do you want to pay for the gamble is what people should keep in mind. Sooner or later things fail. It’s not the question of if it will happen. It’s when.
True…everything will fail at some point. Some soon, and some later. 100% inspection is only 80% effective. The most important thing is that the retailer / company responds appropriately to the failure. Depending on circumstances, the company should pay to have the airgun returned for replacement. Once the airgun is out of warranty, then that’s a different story. But DOA…any pay! No way Jose!
Geo
Agree with you on the warrenty shipping.
Matter of fact here’s my comment to Gerald on yesterday’s blog about his Gauntlet he had to send back for a leak down problem.
“October 10, 2018 at 9:57 am
Gerald
Ouch 55 dollars. I hope you get a good fast turnaround.
One of the FX Monsoons I had was a lemon in my book. I had to send it in a couple time for repair for rapid dumping the air out of the barrel.
One of the times it took me a whole month to get it back. Talk about ouch. A $1700 gun gone for a month. Not my idea of fun there.
And to top it off they never got it fixed. Had it about 3 days and it did it again. Needless to say they got it back and I got something different. So guess what now. I’m skeptical about buying expensive air guns. Just don’t not want to take that gamble again.”
And thinking more.
Most of the places that sell air guns and such usually have a pretty good return policy.
I’m thinking the consumer has pretty good choices they can make to return a product at these air gun selling sites on the internet.
So if the gun doesn’t perform as expected; what do you do? Send it back? Or keep shooting it.
At least that’s something that gives more confidence when buying a air gun.
So if these “lemons” happen we at least have assurance that the situation can be corrected.
I would say that places like Pyramyd AIR and such should be more worried about what the product is like than us the consumer. To me that’s a fight they should be fighting. If I was Pyramyd AIR I would be on the phone with manufacturers if there is product problems.
Or the next thing would be start narrowing down the manufacturers to only guns that are quality. Hmm before you know it then we won’t have any more choices. But hey we can buy something we like that works. Well or not if we don’t like what’s offered.
See how that game works.
GF1,
Pyramyd AIR is on the phone with manufacturers constantly about quality. Most manufacturers are very cooperative, providing parts and technical advice willingly because they understand how this works. The ones that don’t cooperate aren’t around for long.
B.B.
Good for Pyramid Air! This is the right way to earn customer loyalty.
Henry
BB
I knew that some kind of way deep down inside.
The manufacturing world works that way too. That is if your a smart manufacturer.
You don’t take on jobs that make problems. Some manufacturers of parts don’t care. They take on what they can get. Then they find that they are in trouble trying to produce the part. Them company’s usually don’t not last long either.
What it boils down to is the reputation the company has at producing or in my world machining the parts. You don’t stay around long if you don’t do good.
There’s a fine line to walk if you want to survive. And from what I have seen it ends up being exsperiance that tends to win out in one way or another.
B.B.,
You said it! A name means a lot, but the meaning is based on past performance.
Hence, once you get a name that is known, that has a good rep…do not mess with it!
Kudos to SIG for how they are handling the ASP20; would that more companies would do likewise!
After having a hard time finding a nice Diana model 27 in .22 caliber like yours,
I told my wife I’d love to have a .22 caliber HW30S, as it would be somewhat of a modern equivalent.
There are other similar guns I could have asked her to find me, but I knew a “Weihrauch” would be a good gun.
Actually, it’s not; it’s an excellent gun; it operates like a Swiss watch: the fit, the finish, the way it operates…
*shrugs* it’s just beautiful; I can’t say enough good things about it.
As you said, “What’s in a name? Everything!”
Once a company does the hard work to earn a good name, they need to work even harder to keep it.
Thanks, B.B.,
blessings to one and all,
dave
P.S. If I come across a nice-looking .22 caliber Diana 27, I’ll still buy it.
Why? Because of the name…and your review. =>
Dave,
I’m always open to a nice 25 or 27. Maybe someday I’ll find one for you.
B.B.
That would be awesome! =>
B.B.,
With deep regret I might decide to part with my long sought after (over many years) and recently acquired Diana 27 (Winchester 427). A few weeks ago here I said I feared it was a lemon. I still think it might be.
The caveats:
You might recall a while ago I had problems with the trigger adjustment screw still able to turn with the set screw tightened. I bought an exact replacement set screw, tightened that one in, but the adjustment screw is still turnable (but doesn’t move from shooting — it requires a screwdriver). I’ve finally set the trigger so I like it, however.
But it seems to be chronying a bit slowly, about 384 fps with 14.66 gr. H&Ns. It has a leather breech seal that is flush and appears to be in great shape, basically like new. Your past reports show the lack of protrusion of a seal (a Diana 27 in .177) make it shoot only slightly slower. But mine is roughly 1.5 foot-pounds, roughly 12 percent, below what my research suggests is normal. Is it likely a power-plant issue? It does buzz very slightly, but not any vibration I can feel.
Michael
Michael,
It sounds like you need a new spring. And some Tune in a Tube.
B.B.
B.B.,
Hmmm. Can a new spring be installed without disassembling the three ball bearing trigger?
Michael
Michael,
Nope. Listen, I have an idea. You get the stuff, including a new piston seal, and I will tune your rifle for you.
Contact me at
blogger@pyramydair.com
B.B.
B.B.,
Wow! That is wonderful, a very generous offer. I will do that. Thanks you so very much B.B.
Michael
Dave
Well had to look twice.
Thought that was a picture of my HW30s wearing it’s Williams peep.
But looked closer. No adjustable Iris.
I shot mine over the weekend. Always end up smiling when I put it away for the day. 🙂
” Always end up smiling when I put it away for the day.”
Ditto! =>
Mr. Gaylord:
Where was production quality control?
Three less than stellar rifles from three different sources seems to imply that production quality control was ignored in the rush to market. It shouldn’t be up to the retailer to fix what is essentially a production quality problem.
As a corporate strategy, this lack of production standards and quality control seems to be extremely sort sighted because in an instant internet age, less than stellar products have the potential to rapidly erode both brand loyalty and corporate goodwill.
Corporate branding and product branding is a valuable asset because it creates an identity and differentiate a product/service from its competitors. A brand ultimately communicates “constant and consistent delivery of a promise” to the buyer. Without production quality control, that promise either is tainted or missing altogether.
Respectfully,
Wm. Schooley
William
Hard to say this in a diplomatic way.
BB mentioned on the Gauntlet blog that he hasn’t got results representing what other people have got.
Did you see other people’s responses here?
Other guns in different cost ranges have had problems also.
A open mind is needed when a judgment is thought about.
Now on the other part of your reply. Quality control is always a problem. Been there done that for the last 34 years or so in machining.
Procedures are put in place but no matter how well you abide by those procedures. As the saying goes. Shxxt happens. Things slip by. It’s always going to be that way.
If someone figures out how to make that stop they will be billionaires. Or they need to figure out a real good sales pitch about how their procedure will work. Not.
Mr. Schooley,
I am highly impressed with my Benjamin Maximus Euro in .177. With a Challenger valve in it, some decent sights and a trigger fix which Chris has already elaborated on, it could be in the $300-350 range. Hope Crosman is listening. This would definitely challenge the Avanti 753.
Brent
With all this talk about big name companies putting profit over quality I think it will be interesting to see how the Seneca Aspen PCP turns out in the near future and long run. This is a PPP for an on board hand pump rifle.
Evidently Nova Vista is a relatively new company and the designer Mr. Zhu apparently has 10 patent pending inventions incorporated in it. His name and reputation will be on the line with this one. If this rifle turns out to be successful at its price point he will have achieved a new industry standard.
Its slow takeoff is probably due to the fact that Nova Vista is a small relatively unknown company without world wide distribution, until now, and it is almost a stand alone product. Air Venturi seems to be willing to gamble on it.
Speaking of which, I noticed the open sights were replaced with a scope in this second edition release.
In my opinion, when an Airgun is sold with a scope and without open sights, it should be reviewed with that scope. You are sort of being forced to purchase it. If it turns out to be “Not so pretty good” in performance it should be noted. It is part of the rifle at this point and if it was supplied by the manufacturer it should reflect on their reputation. A second review with a superior scope is always an option to actually see what the rifle itself is capable of.
If the scope was added as a marketing ploy by the distributing company it should be a decision made in cooperation with the manufacturer as to the quality of the scope used. Otherwise sell it un-scoped..
I think it would be outstanding if ‘customers’ could decide which scope they wanted to accompany the airgun and receive the same discounted price that a package deal would offer.
Bob,
I believe you make a very good point. Many of the scopes included in those package deals are inferior. They should just discount the rifle and let the customer choose the scope. Or, at least offer a choice of scopes from economy models to the more expensive higher quality scopes. Give the customer some choices.
I’ve been watching this one for a long time. I can wait for the BB test.
Bob,
I too am hoping the best for the Nova Freedom. Like I have said before,… at the launch,.. I got a real sense of striving for quality and getting it right the first time.
You and Geo bring up interesting points on scope/gun package’s,…. which as we all know, have been well discussed.
Will the scope package be the same in March as it will be in November? Or,… are the price point airguns just a dumping ground for market excess (scopes)? To the uninformed, it will be attractive. To the informed,…. it is like being forced into a corner. It straight up,.. ticks me off!!!!! While still getting a “deal”,… I am paying more for something that I will never use (scope), over just a good price on an airgun.
And, you sell a crap scope with an airgun and you may well put off future air gun buyers or those buying up to better.
Air gun testing is one thing and scope testing is another. In my opinion,.. given an experienced tester,… if a crap scope is offered and not up to the task,…. then a better scope should be installed. That way,.. the gun can show it’s best.
Bottom line? Do NOT force me into buying something that I do not want. Thankfully,.. most are offered with and without.
Chris
Red
That is a bit unusual. Perhaps the JSB exacts have a skirt that expands into the rifling better slowing down the exit time a very tiny bit and providing a better seal allowing the pellet to capture more air pressure that eventually pushes it out with more force.
Chris,
When I bought my Diana RWS 34P combo back in 2013 I considered Pyramyd AIR and a competitor online store. It was the scope that swayed my decision. The competitor was offering the Diana 34P with an upgraded Hawke Sport HD 3-9x50mm IR scope ($150 value at the time). Pyramyd’s offering for the combo included a cheap CP scope. I opted for the airgun with the better scope.
Chris
Sometimes they actually say the scope in the picture may not be the one you actually receive.
How cheap can these scopes be? Well I picked up a ‘ half dozen ‘ new 3-9×40 scopes for $3 a piece, may have been $5?, at a clearance super sale on some airsoft site. Hard to pass something like that up. They have a dual reticle and hold up fine on PCPs and CO2 airguns. Very usable for old eyes anyway. Even had see through tinted end caps. Thought it was a joke at first, but yhere wasn’t much to lose anyway.
No markings on the scope or box for any identification … what so ever. I think I received one before but it was around $20. at the time. Talk about a mark up in price ! …. and being in the right place at the right time.
Come to think of it, I believe the black tactical vests were the ones that cost $5. !
Bob
Pyramyd AIR does do that on combo’s. They have multiple scopes listed you can choose for the combo. As well as other things in the combo.
But yes I do know what you mean. If a scope comes with a gun test it with that scope. But for sure another test needs done with a different scope choice to verify the differences.
GF1
Glad to hear that. I can’t recall any situations where that was an option but I really haven’t looked into their combos in many years. Most just involved ammo and shooting accessories and I just kind of started passing them over. May have to start looking into them again. Thanks for the heads up.
Bob
Yep check it out and see what you think. I like that it’s available.
B.B.,
Thank you for addressing my comment with this excellent blog today. You are a very wise man indeed.
Regarding brands, I follow an a computer repair technician with over 30 years of experience who has a YouTube channel. He does videos on computer repairs and builds. He limits the brands of products that he uses to those which have shown to be the most reliable and trouble free. He accepts responsibility for all of his work and any problems which arise. He also says, and this would be true of airgun manufactures too, that all manufactures produce a bad part occasionally. The difference is, how does the company react to the problem? Customer service is everything, and if a company does not respond quickly to address the problem, buy from a different company.
A company that offers free shipping to return a defective product for repair, or replacement, and then has a fast turn around, is a company I want to patronize. Amazon is a good example of a company with those attributes. Another is Annovi Reverberi, maker of AR Blue pressure washers. My AR390SS pressure washer’s motor failed 10 hours use. The 12 month warranty only had two weeks left. I emailed AR Blue and they responded saying that a new pressure washer had already been shipped. I asked about the defective washer and they said “just keep it for spare parts”. They didn’t even ask for the defective unit back to verify. They also extended the warranty on the replacement for six months. The support guy also said that even if my unit had failed out of the 12 month warranty, they would have replaced it in any case because it should not have failed that quickly. He said that depending on the circumstances, they would honor the warranty even after 12 months. I had a new pressure washer within three days. Now that is great customer service, and rare today.
So, whether it is a $300 PCP, or $2000 PCP, either can have a defect. It’s how the company responds to the defect that really matters, and is most important. Airgun retailers should us Amazon as a model of great customer service. Asking the customer to pay $50, or more, to ship a defective airgun back is absurd.
Geo
Well said!
Geo
Yep for sure agree with you.
I have a couple more questions as I play with my new to me diana 24.
First I finally broke down and bought a used alpha master shooting chrony and found something interesting right off the bat, JSB exact 8.4 grain pellets shot consistently around 480 fps but lighter pellets like h&n finale match pistol and several crosman pellets all between 7 and 7.9 grains shot between 400 and 430 so significantly slower than the heavier JSB exacts. Is there a logical reason for this I am missing?
Second based on the velocity figures I think I am justified in thinking this gun has been detuned to be unregulated in Canada (under 500 fps) if I want to return this gun to original factory spec velocity where would I find a spring? Would a 240 spring fit? Or would it be possible / advisable to shim the weaker spring to match a longer factory spring? I don’t have all the measurements handy but the spring in this gun is 28 coils and I read somewhere that the original model 24 spring should have 35 coils?
Red Beard Forge,
Interesting. Usually pellet weight will trump everything on fps. While you are pondering a spring,… wire diameter also factors in,… as well as the # of coils.
Chris
Red
Accidently replied a few entries above.
Bob M, I think you may be right as the lighter pellets seem to drop in easier…not needing to be “seated” as much or at all. I have been noticing that crosman pellets are very inconsistent in size with some pellets from the same tin dropping right into the chamber and others requiring significant force to seat. The Jsb exacts all seem to be very consistent in that regard. The finale match pistol pellets not performing well did surprise me though as they shoot well in my low powered pneumatic pistols
Red
Totally agree with you on the Crosman as well as the JSB pellets. It became quite clear when I tried to install Crosmans into the front of my HellBoys CO2 mag …. skirt first, after I installed a rifled barrel from a Crosman 2100.
On an unrelated not I found this in a local store today and wondered if it is the same thing as the silicone oil that is recommended for compression seal lubrication?
Red
I would say no for the compression chamber. Airgun silicone oil has more ‘phenyl’ that raises the flash point temp. There seems to be a few components involved in the silicone mixture.