by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- The artillery hold
- Today’s test
- The TX
- Test structure
- FWB 300 — best pellet
- TX200 — best pellet
- FWB300 — Qiang Yuan pellet
- TX200 — JSB Exact Premium pellet
- What has been learned?
Today’s report is a head-to-head match between the Air Arms TX 200 Mark III and the FWB 300 target rifle. A reader from the Netherlands, Dutchjozef, asked for this test more than a year ago. In fact I think it has been longer than 2 years since he asked.
I resisted because I couldn’t see the point of the test, but I did write it in my book and came across it several days ago when going over some old notes. We have a different readership today than we had two years ago and many of those who comment on the blog today are interested in things just like this. Was I being a fuddy-duddy for not doing it?
To my thinking, the FWB 300 is a 10-meter rifle, plain and simple. And the TX200 Mark III is a powerful long-range sporting air rifle. Having a shootoff between two guns like this is like racing a P51 fighter against a AA fuel dragster. They are two very fast machines, but they live in totally different worlds that have nothing in common.
But I realized a couple days ago that because conducting a test like this is so far-fetched, no one ever does it. And maybe that’s wrong. Sometimes you should try something just to see what happens. That’s how the artillery hold was invented.
The artillery hold
I was testing a scoped Beeman C1 carbine in my basement range in Maryland about 25 years ago and it wasn’t grouping well at 10 meters. So I read and re-read all the Beeman catalogs I had (we didn’t have much airgun literature in the early 1990s) and they said to hold the stock firmly. Well, I had been doing that without much luck. So I wondered just how bad it would be if I didn’t hold the rifle tight. Lo and behold, with a light hold the rifle grouped tighter than ever. I tested and re-tested it and got the same result each time. So I wrote a long letter to Dr. Beeman describing what I had discovered and said perhaps he could try it and see if he got similar results — maybe even put something into his catalog.
I sent that letter but never heard anything back. So several years later when Edith and I started The Airgun Letter, I made sure I wrote a lot about the artillery hold, as I now called it. The rest is history. Thousands of people have now discovered that a light hold on a recoilling spring rifle is exactly what’s needed for accuracy.
Today’s test
Today I’m testing the accuracy of a TX200 against an FWB 300. All shooting is at 10 meters because the FWB falls apart at longer distances. I’m using the most accurate pellets I have for both rifles, because I want both of them to do their best. For the FWB 300 that would be an H&N Finale Match Rifle pellet with a 4.50mm head that gave me a 0.094-inch group of 5 pellets four years ago. I may not be able to shoot that well today, but I will be shooting both rifles, so the test will be even.
Five H&N Finale Match Rifle pellets with 4.50mm heads gave me this 0.094-inch group at 10 meters from the FWB 300 on February 23, 2012. This is the best group I ever shot with this rifle. The same day I also got a 0.117-inch group with the same pellet.
I also thought I would try another premium pellet that I have never shot in this rifle. For that I chose the Qiang Yuan Olympic pellet.
The TX
I never really tested the TX200 at 10 meters, so I have no results from that distance. The closest I have recorded results for is 25 yards. At that distance the best pellet is the Crosman Premier heavy. We’ll just have to see what they can do at 10 meters today.
For the additional pellet in the TX I will shoot the JSB Exact Premier pellet. These are hand-sorted pellets that I have been wanting to test for a couple months. My problem was always how do I know what gun they will shoot well in? Today I’m giving them their first little test.
Test structure
All shooting will be done at 10 meters. The rifles will be rested on a sandbag, the condition in which both rifles do their best. I will shoot some with each rifle to warm up the action, and then I will shoot two groups of the known best pellet and select the best one to show you. For the other pellet I will only shoot one group, because that pellet has no track record with either rifle.
I will only shoot 5 shots per target. These groups will be so small that they will probably all be in a single hole. Here we go!
FWB 300 — best pellet
After warming up the gun with five shots I shot two 5-shot groups with H&N Finale Match Rifle pellets. The second group was smallest at 0.16-inches between centers. Not as good as I have done in the past, but still pretty small. The larger group measured 0.228-inches between centers.
Today I was able to put 5 H&N Finale Match Rifle pellets into a group that measures 0.16-inches between centers.
TX200 — best pellet
I warmed up the TX200 similarly. I also had to adjust the scope higher because this was 10 meters instead of the 25 yards it was sighted for. The best of the two groups shot with Premier heavies measures 0.198-inches between centers at 10 meters. The second group measured 0.217-inches. That’s pretty consistent!
/a>
The best group shot by the TX200 Mark III is five Crosman Premier heavies going into 0.198-inches at 10 meters.
FWB300 — Qiang Yuan pellet
Now I shifted to the unknown premium pellets for both rifles. The FWB was first. Five Qiang Yuan Olympic pellets went into 0.17-inches at 10 meters. That is so close to the best results with the Finale Match Rifle pellets that I think I have to try this pellet some more in this rifle!
Five Qiang Yuan Olympic pellets went into 0.17-inches at 10 meters in the FWB 300. This pellet deserves a closer look for this rifle!
TX200 — JSB Exact Premium pellet
Now it was the TX200’s turn. Five JSB Exact Premium pellets went into 0.252-inches at 10 meters. I don’t need to try any more of these in this rifle. They are clearly not a good pellet for this TX. That doesn’t mean they aren’t wonderful in some other rifles — just not in this TX.
Five JSB Exact Premium pellets shot by the TX200 went into 0.252-inches at 10 meters. While this looks good for most air rifles, it’s not good enough for the TX.
Incidentally, notice how small the group is that I’m calling bad for the TX200. That demonstrates the difference between a TS200 Mark III and most other spring piston air rifles. With most other spring rifles a group like this would have me dancing in the street.
What has been learned?
For starters I’m thankful that today’s test allowed me to shoot a couple of my favorite air rifles. Spending time with them for any reason is always a treat.
I went into the test thinking the TX would beat the FWB. It came close, but the FWB 300 was the more accurate rifle at 10 meters. So I did learn that. Perhaps Dutchjozef will tell us what he had hoped to see from today’s test.
And finally I have a new pellet to test in the FWB 300! That’s always good.
Hello BB and the group. What super marksmanship on all the targets and tests. I can not comment with any authority on either of the rifles under test as pistols seem to fill my niche in the air gun hobby at this time, but as a newbie in air gun shooting I sure can appreciate a nice tight, small pattern on the targets achieved with this test. I would like to remind the readers that this was done by a guy 68 years old who has had his share of eye and medical problems. Great job Tom and thank you for the test.\
73
Harvey
“for the uninformed, 73 is the abbreviation for best wishes used by old time morse telegraphers and still in use in the ham radio hobby”.
I once had a buddy with a sideband radio.
🙂
Hi Reb,
Fine on your buddies single side band rig. Single side band radios are still very popular in military, CB, and ham radio use. I have been a ham radio operator since 1962. I still can make contacts using morse code. Old fashioned, kind of like using black powder rifles, but fun to re-live history. My FCC licensed ham radio call is K7UQ. Have not bought any new radios since I took up air gun shooting.
I know ham and I believe sideband radios are not regulated the same as CBs are in terms of power out put but back in the 70s and 80s I was big into CBNs and learned how to stretch my distance out way more than a normal CB was capable of by attaching a chain to the frame of my truck and throwing it out into the intercoastal waterway in Florida which created a ground plane that was capable of transmitting my signal hundreds of mile instead of 15 or 20 miles.
I used to talk with CBers in Virginia and Maine and most states up the east coast just by that simple method of extending my ground plane to as far as the water was connected.
BD
Hello BD. Great on shooting skip on c b’s back in the 70’s and 80’s. Clever idea you had about helping the ground plane. The ham radio 10 meter band is very similiar to 27 mhz cb band. Yes, on ham radio on most bands we are allowed 2000 watts P.E.P . I normally run around 100 watts. Ham radio is still a lot of fun, but now you can get more technology in a smart cell phone then a room full of radio gear. The main attraction for new ham radio operators is the use of these radios for emergency communications.
Hey K7ugshooter
It was an old time ham radio operator that told me that little secret about how to utilize the water as a ground plane to greatly extend the measly 4 watts power our CB radios were allowed back then and I also had a amplified mic as well as an antenna booster but still to be able to talk to someone in Virginia from central Florida with only 4 watts power was exciting for sure as I had my doubts when he told me what to do but when I shouted out and got an answer back from Virginia it was a definite surprise from both parties as he did not believe I was in Florida at first as well.
I agree that todays technology has all but made Ham and CB radio obsolete except for a small dedicated few and truckers as well. I still have my cobra model 29 radio and antennas as one day we may need them just to communicate since if the power goes out all I need is a car battery and away I go so sometimes the old is still the new.
BD
If anyone is running with a stiff non-adjustable trigger like myself. Do yourself a favor and check out the “Earl Trigger” Mod on YouTube.. It’s free folks and is perfect for scope cams.
I’d say let’s stretch em out a bit more and let’s see how long the 300 can hold it’s own.
Reb,
B.B. Already shot the FWB 300 at long distance. If I wasn’t so tired I’d find the links for you. Happy New Year.
Kevin
I’ll see what I can find.
B.B.,
Assume the TX was scoped and the FWB 300 was shot with a peep.
You haven’t lost anything in your shooting. Your 0.17 inch target shot with the 300 looks like a test target from the factory! Well done.
kevin
kevin,
as you probably know… if theres enough light and with the right insert a diopter is not a handicap (assuming your eye sight is okay)
Dutchjozef,
I have some familiarity with diopter and peep sights.
I prefer a clear insert for the front sight in most instances. I like adjustable iris’s. I have several gehmann’s but prefer the old seiberts. These help even if your eye sight is not okay.
If you really want to improve your shooting with rear diopter sights you can add an AOS Microsight distributed by Sinclair. This allows you to focus on your front sight AND your target at the same time:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/optics/sights/sight-accessories/aos-microsight-prod44975.aspx
kevin
Kevin,
Yes, the TX has a Hawke 4.5-14 scope.
B.B.
Hi Kevin,
I was wondering the same thing. Target peep sight versus scope.
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred DPRoNJ,
I think B.B.’s FWB 300 is the one that Mac used for mini sniping so it gives up nothing to a scoped gun especially at 10 meters!
kevin
BB, the rifles might have more incommon than you think. They both represent one of the best rifles around at THEIR eara. To me It was no suprise the 300s won the shoot off…. certainly at 10m the 300s is like a fish in the water.
I wanted to show to those who did not know, that an OLD pure bred 10m rifle still is a force to be reckoned with. You can use it as a hunting rifle too, say up to 25 (max 30) meters. With the right pellet it WILL put the pellet exactly there were you aim.
The reason I asked for this shoot off, is to let people understand that a TX200, hw97/hw77, hw95 or the walther lgv/lgu are not the only super accurate springers around. There are some oldies around that can hold their own against the modern springers. i had a shoot off at the range with a tweaked 300s against a tx200 and a AA200. They laughed: “youre gonna shoot with THAT?”
An hour later there was no more laughing 🙂
Dutchjozef,
You certainly convinced me! I really thought the TX was going to win this one. As you say — both rifles are representative of the best of their times.
I learned something from this. Thanks,
B.B.
Dutchjozef
Glad you got to school your shooting buddies with your 300.
Don’t that feel good. 😉
It sure did!!!!
Dutchjozef
🙂
DJ
we have a few members at our FT club that own 300’s and we get together and have our own 300 matches within the match and have done just as you said and surprised some of the other members with our 300’s since they basically had the same confounded look and expression ” your going to shoot that” LOL.
But when we dropped the 50 and 55 yard targets one after another they all were picking their jaws off the ground. granted we are lobbing the pellets out at a ridiculous trajectory but they still retain enough energy to make the targets fall.
My junior is tweaked and shoots JSB 8.44s at 650 fps with a 5 fps spread with deadly accuracy, I love my 300’s
BD
Buldawg,
That’s one hot 300s Junior! I have a Jr, a full size 300s, and a 150, and they all get about 650 fps with Hobbies, but with 8.44 JSBs! What kind of tune does it have? (Mine all have the blue seal and are recent rebuilds.
Michael
Michael
My Junior has the Maccari Artic single spring in it with a 1/4″ nylon spacer inside the piston in front of the spring with FWB green buffer and breech seals and the factory steel ring. I lightly honed the inside of the chamber with a green scotchbrite pad on the end of a piece of tubing with a slit cut in it to hold the scotchbrite just to break the glaze off the chamber and allow the ring to seat properly just as you do in a car engine when rebuilding by leaving a fine crosshatch finish inside the chamber. That’s all that was done and it is all totally reversible without any damage to the gun. It is slightly more cocking effort but still a two finger cocker and has zero recoil just like the factory setup.
It shoots JSB 10.34s at 590 fps as well and GF1 and I have modded our other 300’s to use an 015 or 016 o ring in place of the steel ring with very good success and also get between 650 and 700 fps with 8.44s with the same Maccari spring. I am still tuning on my match l with a Vortek spring I bought that is a little bigger wire diameter than the Maccari spring so as to have a slightly faster expansion rate but still have not seen the gains I am after so we may be close to or at the 300’s limit of velocity as they are very short stroke gun so there is only so much air to be compressed to propel the pellets with so once you reach that plateau all that will occur is more wear and tear on the parts of the gun.
BD
Dutchjozef.
There is a fellow who has an internet page, probably easy to find with google, where he documents his squirrel and rabbit hunting at 25 yards with FWB 300s and 150 rifles. He regularly takes them with a single shot in the eye or ear.
I have one of each and a 601, and they are equals in my hands, rested (probably a key factor in the springers’ ability to equal the 601) at my basement 10 meter range. All three have killed many a ten ring, although now my eyes have aged to the point that I must either use an Eagle Eye in the front sight or a 1.5 magnifying diopter in the aperture. With the practically un-scopable 601 I once found I can combine the two for somewhere around 2X magnification by adjusting the front lense a la a telescope.
Soon I will be required to put a 4×32 AO scope on the FWB 150.
Michael
Michael
DJ
I have seen possibly the same fellows site and if it is the same person he has stated that he regularly kills squirrels and rabbits out to 45 yards with his 300 just as you say in the eye or ear.
I believe his site is the varminteer or something to that effect.
BD
BD,
see my comment to micheal
michael,
my fwb 300s was the only airgun I had when we moved to our new village. the place was INFESTED with the smaller type of crow.
I used to kill over 70 crows each spring with my 300s. In the right hands the 300s is a great show stopper. But at longer distances it wont shoot trough the breast bone. headshots are the only safe way to kill them in an instand when using the 300s.
Since then al lot has changed and Im now the guy to ask if people have pestbirds problems. amongst the recently bought 600, I have a handfull of premium springer that allow me to reach out further while hunting.
I have had 3 amazing shots in my hunting life.
ill tell you 2 of them:
1 I once shot two crows with one shot with my hw80/r1.
2 while I was practicing 10m at my home range with the 600, a rook flew over our garden (Im a former running bore shooter) and in an instant I decided to shoot the rook in its flight, under an angle of about 30degrees…… I shot him just below the wing….. there was no life in him left when he hit the ground.
Dutchjozef
Thank you for that comment.
I think maybe other people have had those amazing shots in their lifetime too. I know I have. But maybe they/or I don’t want to say on the internet. Maybe people won’t believe.
Dutchjozef… I believe and thanks for posting your amazing shots. Seriously thanks. I wish other people would do the same.
How about a heart and both lungs shot @ 20yds on a squirrel with a pistol crossbow one handed?
I tried to find a comfortable support but when that didn’t work out I just put my left hand at parade rest behind my back and let er fly. It still had enough power out there to roll him over on his side and stake him a couple inches into the ground.
yep.
thats why I mentioned only 2 out of the 3 amazing shots.
nobody would believe the other shot Ive done with an airgun.
But as you know, when you shoot very much….. you become ONE with the weapon and you get in the “zone”.
when youre ONE with a machine…. you can pull off some amazing things.
In my previous life Ive driven over 25000 hours on wheelloaders, excavators and forklifttrucks. they become a second nature.
you can do crazy stuff when you are in the zone….but you get away with it.
Dutchjozef
Talk about in the zone.
I have flown radio control airplanes since I was a kid. How’s this for in the zone. Come fly past 6 inches off the ground at a 100 mph. Upside down! One wrong move of the stick and that plane is trash.
I fly 3D electric planes now. Search 3D aerobatic flying and watch some of the videos. I think you will be amazed.
But yep your right. If you do something enough it becomes natural.
Dutch
I have pulled of quite a few amazing shots in my life . You shoot enough, and it will happen . Some were intentional, but with a lot of luck . Others were purely by accident .
twotalon
Ya gotta play the game before the Luck comes into play and the more you play the more you get. .:)
I agree with you. Old springers and SSP rifles are still relevant. But, the buyer has to be careful. A few years ago, I bought a 601 for all the reasons you have read about. But, for me, the 601 turned out to be a one trick pony. I wanted to practice standing and position, but the cocking effort made it difficult to shoot for extended off-hand sessions, and the cocking length + effort made it impossible for me to use for position practice. My 300s, however, works just fine for both. Sure, the standing score is typically a couple of points lower over series of ten shots than with the 601, but most of that is me. The 300s is accurate enough, but requires a bit more attention and follow through. Easy at first, but harder to do as you keep pouring the shots down range. More to the point, if I call a solid 10, it will be, for both rifles. if I call a scratch 10, it generally will be more often with the 601 than with the 300s. But, lose focus with either rifle and a good shooter will discover that they can still shoot a 7 or 8. Hmm, that’s true with any 10m rifle. I think the springers still have a market, it’s just untapped. The NRA could help with that…but that assumes that the rifle can still be made at a cost that is competitive with the PCP guns. Cheers!
All I will say right now is I’m a very lucky person to have a Tx in .177 caliber. And a 300 that’s been modified. And another 300 that is still stock other than new seals and a zero gap factory ring.
And I definitely have to add they are crazy accurate at 10m as well as 50 yards. Matter of fact I know a few people that read this blog have seen a picture of the targets they shot. Let’s see who I sent the pictures too.
Buldawg, Chris USA, Reb, RidgeRunner and Vana2. Buy the way I listed the names in alphabetical order just so you all know.
Oh and Chris USA I been busy so haven’t had much time to get on the the internet. But I did see you were talking about trying the gorilla tape and you did. Then you thought about not putting it on the back of your target paper.
I thought I mentioned it before. I was using the gray tape at the old house and switched to the gorilla tape at the new house. And I have always used the tape to retape over my home made pellet stop of 2×4’s and a 1″ layer of phone book paper. Then I tape my targets on the homade stop over the black side of the gorilla tape. After I shoot about 3 or 4 pages of targets I take those target papers off then add one more layer of gorilla tape. I can usually do that about 3 or so times before I have to cut the gorilla tape and phone book off. Then I just get another 1″ layer of phone book and retape with the gorilla tape.
So I have a pretty solid stop that I put my targets on. And it makes very clean holes in the paper that way. The trick is that I pull the gorilla tape very tight before I stick it to my homemade pellet stop. Just thought I would let you know. And if you come up with something let me know.
I to will have to agree with GHF1 as to the fact that a 300s is not just a tem meter gun as I know that is what it was designed and built for and does perform superbly at those distances. It is also a very capable long range gun ( 50 yards ) as I have two 300s with one being an 82 model match L and the other a 76 model match junior. the junior has been modified with a Macarri artic spring and new buffer and breech seal with a gapless ring and shoot JSB 8.44s at 650 fps with a ES of 5 fps and I have a tree out at 45 yards measured by my range finder that had ( have been shot off ) 3/4′ diameter balls hanging off the branches from 10 feet up to 50 feet off the ground and in a matter of 3 or 4 days I have shot all the balls or nuts or whatever they were off with the Junior and was able to hit 9 out of every 10 shots taken with it repeatedly even in light winds with adjustment of my POAs to compensate for such.
I am in the process of modifying the match L to shoot at least 650 fps and hopefully closer to 700 fps to use in FT competition for distances from 10 to 55 yards and have shot them both on our FT sight in range and am capable of shooting sub 1/2″ groups at 45 yards with the Junior quite easy and will be able to do so with the L once the tuning id complete on it.
So while they are in fact a ten meter gun by design they are by no means limited to such short distances and at the 25 yards of my backyards range I can shoot 1/4″ groups or just about pellet on top of pellet all day long with both guns at 25 yards and squirrels inside 40 yards are no match for either gun as head shots are all but guaranteed if I do my part.
I have a B40 which is a TX clone and mine actually has many a TX parts on it and it is nowhere as accurate of a gun at any distance compared to a 300s so IMO this test was over before it was started with the very unfair advantage going to the 300s hands down especially at only ten meter as that distance severely handicapped the TX from the start.
Just my thoughts.
BD
Buldawg
Yep the 300’s are shooters. And how about the triggers.
All I know is my Tx compared to both of my 300’s I don’t have to think as much to make a good shot. It’s like its natural with the 300. And almost always both 300’s will out shoot the Tx at 50 yards and in. Well the stock lowered power 300 needs a calm day. But the modified 300 can make the Tx work for its money even in a 8 mph wind.
Cool guns is all I can say. Both the 300’s and Tx. Everybody should at least try a 300 or Tx in their lifetime. Definitely some nice craftsmanship.
GF1
Got to agree 100% with all you said as the 300s are indeed shooter with fabulous triggers as well. I know my junior is one of my go to guns for all day fun shooting and as you say makes my B40 work to keep pace with it out to 50 yards. mine are the same as the junior shoots 60 fps faster than the L does right now so its much better in the wind as well but guns are deadly on a calm day and the junior has the old style pivoting trigger instead of the straight pull trigger that the L has on it but either one is the best trigger of any of my guns by far.
Yea I believe they should definitely be bucket list items for everyone in their lifetime and feel very lucky to have two of them to enjoy since my right shoulders bone spurs have really been giving me a fit and the 300s are two of my guns that don’t aggravate it shooting them so that’s a big plus right there.
BD
Buldawg
Yep definitely make for enjoyable shooting. Especially if you have the factory springs in them. Way easy to cock. And no felt recoil at all.
And very quiet. Real nice indoor shooting guns and for sure back yard friendly. Make nice little pesting guns for starlings and such out to 50 yards too.
Both of mine will go through both sides of a 2 litre soda bottle at 50 yards. That’s with the bottle cap off and JSB 10.34’s. I know the one that’s modified with the heavier single spring and o-ring instead of the cast iron ring has no problem at all going through both sides of the bottle at 50 yards. And I think the zero end gap ring is helping the stock double spring 300 shoot a little faster then if it had the regular factory cast iron ring with the normal end gap. But anyway all and all happy with both.
GF1
Yep ditto on all you said and they are one of my springers that I can still enjoy shooting without being in pain afterwards due to my bone spurs that are causing me extreme pain after the guns butt stock has been beating my right shoulder up for several hours.
I have been concentrating on my PCPS for just that reason since they don’t recoil just as the 300’s don’t so while they still eventually cause me some pain its not near as bad as my other spring guns that do have recoil even if its very slight.
Mine will both put holes in cans and bottles out at 50 yards as well and our FT targets require at least 2 fpe to drop so I know they are making at least that much if nor more out that far since they drop the targets without issue.
Still got to replace the o ring in my L to the ones we found fit best and seal without increasing drag but this darn crazy weather has my body not knowing what it want to do so just have not been up to the task of tearing back into it as of yet but it will get done so I will have two hot rodded 300’s before long. The nice thing is we have not done anything that cannot be undone and returned back to stock form with a little effort.
BD
BD
You hit the nail on the head. The guns can be put back to factory condition and no one would be the wiser to the gun having mods done to it.
Now that’s how to tune a gun without chopping it up drilling on it and such.
That was one of the things I always kept in mind when I was racing the muscle cars. Make sure any mods done could be a easy bolt on bolt off to put back to original condition. Well of course most of the time the person buying the car wanted it running how it was.
And that reminds me the other day some people were remembering the old cars being done at 100,000 miles. Smoking and leaking oil. Can’t say I remember it that way. Some did. But you could tell they weren’t taken care of.
And that reminded me how would you know the cars back then had over a 100,000 miles on them unless you were the original owner or knew the history of the car from the previous owner.
Here’s why. The odometers on most of those cars rolled back to zero in them days. 99,999 was the highest reading they recorded then went to zero.
I wonder how many people had cars with 280,000 miles on them and only thought they had 80,000 miles on them. Makes you wonder.
GF1
yea that is a real plus with the 300’s in that the mods we have done to them are not permanent and can be reversed as easy as they were done so no harm no foul.
The reason you and I don’t necessarily remember the cars of the 60s and 70s being worn out at 100,000 milers is we maintained our cars which on the old cars was an absolute necessity in order for them to survive past the 100,000 mile mark. The biggest reason for the low lifetime expectancy was the technology available at the time in metallurgy and machining tolerances and finishes as compared to todays car that have far superior metal and machining finishes that cause far less wear and tear in the same number of miles as well as lubrication technology.
there was no way back then to determine if the car had 3000 miles or 103,000 miles on it back then except for the overall condition and those little telltale things we knew to look for like wear and tear of carpets and seats, the pedals rubber pads showing excess wear and the steering wheels cracking or peeling off of the leather covers.
I am sure a lot of people were driving cars that were sold as low mileage one owner cars that were in fact high mileage several owner cars and is why I am glad that I could repair and maintain my own cars as that’s one thing I could not have been able to pay some of the repair bills I generated in my 45 years as a mechanic repairing car for a living.
BD
Buldawg
You got it. With you 100%.
GF1
Ditto
Interesting about the 3/4″ balls. Sycamore or sweetgum? The sweetgum has spiked balls and the Sycamore has fibrous balls that blow up and emit cattail like fibers.
Sounds like fun!
Reb
I have no idea what kind of tree it is as its off my property so I have not went out to inspect it close enough at truthfully would not know one from the other. I do know that the balls did burst into pieces when hit but cannot say I saw any cattail like fibers when exploding but just pieces going everywhere and was in hopes it would attract some tree rats to gather the remains from the ground but it is obliviously not a source of food for them since none have showed up to forage on the remnants all over the ground.
It was a lot of fun shooting at them though and watching the pellet fly to its target and them explode when it hit its mark.
BD
BD
Love when the pellet can be seen flying and impact. Cool stuff.
GF1
Yea I love being able to see the pellet fly like that as it allowed me to adjust my hold to compensate for the wind and trajectory and pick them off one at a time. Way to much fun and I just wish I had not shot all the balls off the tree since now all that is left are bare branches . LOL
BD
BD
I know, I know. It’s hard to hold back and have some targets for the next time.
That’s what happens when your having fun. 🙂
And speaking of targets. What did you think about my little reactive target I sent you a picture of this morning. Kind of got the idea from that hundred yard target you guys were useing at the shooting range.
A nice little aluminum can spinner. The can always ends up being up right and standing on the ground. And it’s got a hook attached to the wire frame. So real easy to slip a can off and put a new one on.
Gf1
Yea I was just on my game those few days after I got the Junior tuned up and was not thinking about shooting up all my targets but I got more trees that need pruning still so plenty to keep busy with. LOL
I like that silver bullet spinner and the quick disconnect can clip is quite innovative as well and bet it spins real nice when hit at the bottom of the can. I know I enjoy the shooting after a match at the long range bottles and spinners as much if not more than shooting the matches themselves shooting. its a good feeling to see your gun hitting targets that most would not think an airgun being capable of hitting with any accuracy at all.
Its just a matter of knowing your gun and its trajectory so you can use the correct holdovers to reach out that far accurately.
Practice, practice, practice.
BD
BD
And you know what. The lower powered 300 spins the can harder than the higher power 300.
The lower power one will penetrate the front side of the can and hit the back side and wollup the heck out of it.
The higher power 300 hits the can and penetrates so fast on the front side it verily moves the can and still has the energy to continue through the back side.
If I want to put on a show for somebody. The somebody being the next door neighbor that believes in only firearms and noise. I get out the lower powered 300 and put the wollup on the can spinners.
He stopped by over the weekend. He says to me. I thought you said you shoot all the time. And I said to him I do. I go I have been shooting everyday for the last 2 weeks while we were shut down for the he holiday’s at work. He goes Hmm. Never heard a thing. I said you got it. Nothing like air guns.
Gf1
That’s what is called full absorption of energy of the projectile in a target and if the pellet goes clean thru then most of its energy is not expended on the can but wasted outside the can and is why the low powered one spins it better because it releases all it energy in the can itself with none left over to penetrate the anther side.
Its having just enough gun for the job and is exactly why the 300’s are so good of a squirrel gun as they expend all their energy in the squirrel instead of just blowing a clean hole right thru it the pellet stay in the head and rattles around much like an assassins 22Lr does and is why its the most used gun of pro assassins.
BD
BD
That’s a good point about the .22 long rifle.
You talked about knowing your guns trajectory. It’s also good to know how much energy your projectile has at different distances. Especially hunting or pest control with a air gun.
That’s where the balistic programs like Chairgun come in handy.
You can get a idea of how hard the pellets going to hit at different distances.
I have blown straight through starlings at 20 yards with a air gun and thought I missed until I saw the bird fall over. It never even flinched or bumped Then shoot the same air gun and pellet at one out at 50 yards and it knocks the starling back a foot or more.
So yea once you know your guns trajectory and retained energy at different distances it can make for a pretty deadly combination.
GF1
Yep with you on all you just said about knowing your guns trajectory and energy level so you know if it is up to the job you are intending it to be used for and chairgun is a very helpful tool for understanding that better.
That’s why I say it only takes 4 fpe to kill a squirrel at 45 yards if you can place that pellet in the head or lung area accurately every time and is what the 300 can do repeatedly with precise accuracy if you do your part.
Got to know your guns for sure,
.
BD
BD
Yep and the more time you spend with a variaty of air guns the more you see how different each one is.
GF1
Go to the bottom
I was watching the impact on my 2400 with the UTG 4X32 @about 25yds over Christmas and using the mildots out a little further.
Nice scope!
Gotta save up for a Bugbuster for the QB-88 now!
Reb
Cool. I was wondering if you got that scope on a gun. I liked the one I had. Nice scope for only a 4 power.
B.B.,
“Far fetched test”,……”No one ever does it”,……. 😉 Playing with target paper, lubing bb’s, modifying a 499, muzzle weighting an LGU and lots more stuff that escapes me at the moment. So yea, sometimes those far fetched ideas can lead to some surprisingly good things and good results. I always try to keep an open mind and will try most anything, within reason.
Nice test, Chris
B.B.
To me it’s a good illustration of how much it’s required to achieve so little in springers. While TX is a classic sliding chamber springer, 300 is a steam engine compared to a cart in terms of technical complexity – sliding chamber springer set on rails with recoil compensation, double springs, recoil buffer in the piston head etc. And all that brings a rather small advantage in accuracy (well, huge if you’re shooting the Olympics 🙂 ). Springers feel to me somewhat like piston-engined fighters: + 300 h.p. on engine per 20 km/h speed advantage. That, actually, is the thing that makes me love both – one must learn and practice very much to use every feature and there’s a lot to polish.
I shot my FWB300S at 10 m standing a few days ago, after a 3 months pause (I dedicated that time to 50 m BR) and still it’s a marvel – 3-rd group was just like it was 3 months ago, when I practiced it 2 times a week. I think it’s a great art to make a rifle that makes it nearly impossible to hold it and shoot it wrong.
By the way, some time ago I tested my mod-CFX against FWB300 at 25 m – luckily, my 300 is Universal and accepts optics. I am not a great sniper, but as far as I felt it, even at 25 m 300 was easier to shoot and put holes together than mod-CFX, while groups were somewhat identical – 9-11 mm at its widest. But, of course, lower speeds make for a bigger trajectory arc at 25, so technically 300 is “stricter” to canting the rifle.
duskwight
Duskwight,
What a great analogy! Spring guns are like piston-engined fighters! Of course they are.
And PCPs are the new fly-by-wire jets.
Wow! I’m stealing that.
Good analogy,
B.B.
Duskwight
That is a good point about cant with lowered powered guns.
Also the stock of the 300 being taller adds to possible cant. The Marauders are like that too as far as the tall stock goes. But the 300 stock is a great design too. Just wish they would of made the stock a little shorter. Well and the Marauder stock too.
And that’s one thing that I do like about the Tx. Very ergonomic. Almost like its a custom made stock for me. When you pick up a Tx for the first time and shoot one after shooting other spring guns you know your holding something special. Kind of reminds me of a sleek fighter jet. 🙂
GF1 and BD76,
You guys are starting to make me wish I had hung on to one of them. 😉
BB,
I would not recommend that you do such with yours, but the 300 is an excellent sproinger to hop up a little bit if you do not try to get carried away with it. It is already shooting a little hotter than most 10 meter rifles. GF1 has been testing replacing the metal ring with an o ring and has been getting excellent results.
RR,
I’m leaving my 300S as it is. I got it from Mac, so it carries some memories.
B.B.
BB,
Oh, I know. That was why I recommended you not mess with it.
Also, it is in real nice shape. The 300s that GF1 got from me were club guns that were non functional when I got them.
RR
Yep you should of kept one of those 300’s. Great little guns. Every air gunner should own one at least once in their life.
Once you shoot one its hard to pick up other spring guns and call them smooth quiet shooters and the trigger will definitely spoil you.
GF1,
I’m happy!
Are you and BD using silicone oil or grease on the piston o ring?
RR
Yes I have put about 3 drops of RWS silicone oil down the transfer port hole 2 times now since I done the mod. Which is probably about 3 weeks.
And I don’t think I really needed to. The gun was still shooting great. I could still feel a slight drag when I closed the breech after cocking and loading the pellet. I just lubed it to make me feel ok about not drying up and rolling the o-ring.
So far real impressed with the o-ring mod.
RR
Yea I think you will be sorry if you are not already you did not keep one of them as they are wonderful guns indeed and our idea of an o ring instead of the metal ring is proving to be a game changer in terms of a velocity increase compared to the metal ring with little else done to the gun.
If you put the piston in the chamber out of the gun and plug the transfer port with your finger and push or pull on the piston, with the metal ring you can get a slow leak down that allows the piston to be slowly pushed all the way forward or backwards but with the o ring on the piston you cannot move the piston more than a 1/8′ and it is completely air locked so that there is no bleed or blowby past the o ring.
The trick GF1 and I had was to find the correct o ring that seals completely and yet has as little drag in the chamber as possible so as not to slow the pistons acceleration down at all but allow for far better sealing in the chamber and therefore a huge increase in velocity.
BD
BD
That’s a quick easy test we do at work with air cylinder’s or hydraulic cylinder’s to test to see if they need rebiult. Or if they are going to hold a seal when we do rebiuld them before we put them on the machine.
That was one of the things I tryed on several spring guns before we started playing around with ideas on the 300. Matter of fact the Tx tune video you sent me back when I got it got all this spring gun tuning going on. The Vortek kit comes with a replacement seal for the piston head that accepts a o-ring. So I played around with different o-rings on it trying to get a better seal. And tested that way. Remember I said it should act like a needle syringe plunger. Put your finger over the opening where the needle was and pull. The plunger should snap back closed. The same exact thing will test the sealing of a spring gun. Well maybe not the old leather seals. But I bet it would give some indication if there is a lot or little blow by with them also.
But yep the 015 soft o-ring was the trick with my heavier single spring 300. Might be a different size for your cylinder on your gun though and spring combination. But that’s the beauty of the o-ring mod. You can easily try different o-rings till you get the seal and amount of drag you want.
GF1
I remember you telling me about you testing seal and o ring at work that way when repairing them so you knew it would work before it was reassembled.
I also tried the Vortek o ring seal in my B40 but it was way to much drag but at the time did not think to try a different size o ring to get a good seal and low drag but when I tear back into my D48 to check for the piston slamming that is breaking scopes on it I am going to try the o ring seal that came with that kit and find a o ring that fits good but is not to tight.
I have the 70 duro 015 buna o ring in my L now but it was shooting better with the 016 Viton o ring I had in it so I probably will go back to it as you say our guns may not have the exact same tolerance in the chambers so its a trial and error until you find the right combo. I am just glad that for me anyway I find the 300 just as easy to take apart as a TX/B40 so I can have it apart and o ring swapped and back shooting in less than 30 minutes without rushing one bit. Very easy guns to work on once you get the rhythm down on what has to come off and what does not.
BD
BD
I just recently retryed the seal and o-ring in my Tx and didn’t like it. The Tx just likes the factory seal much better. That’s in my particular gun of course.
The latest tune in it is seeming to be the greatest. Good velocity and shot cycle and most accurate so far. It’s almost grouping as good as the 300 out at 50 yards now. I think I hit the majic spot. Got to shoot it more to see if it keeps consistent. It did nice over all the days off I had for the holidays.
As my favorite saying goes.
Time Will Tell.
GF1
I remember you telling me you were going to try it and just forgot to ask if it worked out or not so at least you got the tune it and you like in it now and that’s what matters at least for now as time will tell.
I still need to convert my B40 to the TX internals I bought awhile back but just have more projects than time it seems anymore and it is shooting good now even with the .080″ out of round chamber in it but it will get done in time.
As you say time will tell.
BD
Buldawg76,
I was going to post this morning that it was good to have you back. I waited. It seems that you are.
I will keep it simple,….You and Gunfun1, and the exchanges that you two post here, were/are paramount in my airgun thinking. Always playing, always trying new things, always improving what you have. Sometimes things do not work as thought, but when you do find something that does, you guys post and share it here. Thanks!
Missed ya’,……Chris
Chris,USA
Yea I have just been busy with health issues for the wife and myself so not enough time in a day anymore it seems but thing are slowly getting back to as normal as possible at least until the 26th when the wife is having a left knee revision surgery done.
She had a knee replacement October 2013 and has had issues ever since and we finally got the docs to investigate further and after extensive testing have found out she is one in approx. 300,000 people that are allergic to the cobalt/chromium metal alloy used in 95% of all joint replacement surgeries so here body has been unhappy with the knee implant all this time ( not rejecting it ) so that it has stayed inflamed around the surrounding tissue for over two years now. The docs have had a custom all polyethylene (Delrin ) knee joint made to replace the metal/Delrin joint in her leg now so once she gets that metal out of her body it should be smooth sailing to a complete recovery. just took a lot of trips to Bham 65 miles away to get all the allergy testing completed so that and my health not cooperating as it should have kept me slowed down some so may be in and out still but not gone by any means.
GF1 and I talk everyday for a few minutes to hours on end bouncing ideas off each other to try on our guns and some work great and some not so great but all in all we manage to make good guns better for the most part and always happy to share what we learn and figure out that works.
I do lurk most times so while you may not hear from me it does not mean I am not watching HeHe.
Take care
BD
That’s OK. I now have a real nice Diana 46E in .22. I have been wanting a sproinger in .22 for some time now. I think the tree rats are not going to be happy this coming Fall.
For “long range” in .177 I have an Edge that I am tinkering with. Right now it is sending 8 grain pellets down range at almost 800 FPS. I have not had much trigger time with it, but the last session I shot a 10 shot group at 50 yards that was .8″ CTC. I cannot wait to drop an 18″ barrel in it.
RR
Glad your liking the 46e.
RR
Yea GF1 told me you traded with him for the 46E and glad you are happy with it as it is a unique gun for sure and should keep the tree rats in their place quite well. LOL
It sounds as though your edge is going to be another nice accurate gun for you to enjoy and I bet when you get the 18 inch barrel in it you will be even happier with it and hopefully drop those .8″ CTC groups down closer to .5′ CTC groups.
BD
Very likely and it will boost the velocity close to 50 FPS. Who knows, I may be able to use it on tree rats.
RR
If its shooting at 800 fps now its already good for tree rats since the 300’s are more than capable of killing them even at only 650 fps out to 45 yards as it only takes 4 fpe with a well placed shot to kill a tree rat so if you are getting .8″ groups at 50 yards you can put the pellet in the kill zone easily right now.
I have killed several tree rats with my 300 out to 40 yards already.
BD
BD,
This is so, but before I feel good about taking it hunting, I am going to want to know I can do that on a regular basis. So far I have only had one shooting session with it at that range.
The bad thing is I need another scope. I had to pull the scope off of the Edge to try out the 46E! Hopefully I will be able to save up enough pennies to get me one in a couple of weeks.
RR
I agree you have to be confident in the gun being able to hit your POA repeatedly to know you will kill and not wound your prey so from what you say you are in need of more practice time and hopefully you can get a scope to dedicate for the 46E.
There are many good quality scopes out there for a decent price you just need to decide what your needs are as far as specs and features.
Good luck and hope you get one soon.
BD
B.B.
Thanks for a great article! Makes me wish that Feinwerkbau would restart production of the 300. Their new sportster is such a disappointment…..
-Yogi
Yogi,
I will agree that FWB could do a better job with their new sporter. I had such high hopes for it.
B.B.
It may even have been worthwhile trying the match pellets in the TX at that short range
BB
You should of linked a picture of your 300 as it looks as tested.
I would like to see how that scope looks on the 300. Does it make it a little tuff to load the pellets?
GF1,
There is no scope on the 300. It has the factory target sights. It is the TX that has the scope.
B.B.
BB
Oh ok. No loading issues that way.
B.B.
I have a scoped 300SU that I have been using for plinking and pest control and all I can say is that it is an awesome machine!!!
Please run some tests at longer ranges with dome-head pellets. My rifle is fond of the JSB Match Exact Express Diabolo, 7.87 Grain pellets.
Thanks,
Hank
Hank,
I have already done that.
/blog/2012/04/fwb-300s-vintage-target-air-rifle-part-5/
Maybe I could get it to shoot better, but it’s never going to be the equal of the TX 200. So I am done shooting the FWB 300 at this distance.
B.B.
OK, Thanks B.B.
Hadn’t seen that – will read that blog at lunch.
Hank
I have finally been able to register here after 20 failed attempts. the other system was so easy so I guess no one like easy anymore.
BB I have shot the FWB at 25 yds into tiny groups. it is only going 495 FPS with JSB’s. wish you would have shot yours at 30 yds instead of 50
Mildot52,
Welcome to the blog.
Yes, the 300S is more accurate at shorter distances. But the readers asked me to test it at 50 yards, so that’s what I did.
B.B.
I can still remember one of my buddies cars that he took to the dragstrip always use to get some good comments about it.
They use to say man that thing runs good for a Ford. Then he use to say yep that old Mustang still don’t know its got a Chevy engine under the hood.
All I can say is don’t under estimate something until you try. I think they should of put a 300 action in a different stock and called it a sport gun. I wonder if anybody would think it wasn’t a good 50 yard gun then.
That’s what I like so much about my QB-88, it doesn’t have all the bells and whistles just a solid and accurate gun. I will be boosting the power and am considering a correlation kit for it.
Vortek!
Reb
And why would you not?
😉
Money and other projects.
I hope to finish this Powermaster 66 today but I gotta get groceries for the weekend first. Then I’d like to get back to the 2200 magnum
Reb
Didn’t mean it that way.
Meant why would you not give it a try with your gun. It deserves a chance to be better. Right?
I’m pretty sure mine has a leather piston seal and I’d kinda like to keep it that way but once power goes up I may experience detonation problems.
Reb
That would be something to watch for.
Had a regular at the shop that had a ’69 mach 1. He wanted our shortest 3″ glasspacks and 3″ pipe turned down in front of the axle the first time then he showed up with some Flowmasters to quieten it down and let me angle them in front of the tires and won the burnout contest. Man, that thang was Nasty!
Reb
You know once you get the tires spinning it don’t take much to keep them spinning.
We had a guy in high school that had a 70 Chevelle and had a biult small block. He would get a kick out of brake torquing it and kind of playing with the brake to keep the tire spinning and the car slowly moving down the parking lot.
We use to call him one wheel wonder Bob. Had all that stuff done to the engine and tranny but had a single track rearend instead of a posi.
He would try to race people and they would done have 5 cars on him out of the hole before his car even moved.
Like RidgeRunners qoute. What good is all that power if you can’t use it. I seen low horsepower cars beat high horsepower cars because the low horsepower car was set up right to make its power work.
Kind of like a factory stock FWB 300 if you think about it.
GF1
I always wanted to put a small block in a mustang and then put a sticker across the back window that says
Powered by a Heartbeat.
BD
BD
You don’t know how many people that Chevy powerd Mustang made mad. Putting it nicely here on BB’s g rated blog.
That was one of Chevy’s best slogans I will say that.
GF1
Exactly why I wanted to build one with that in the back window to see how many people would get what it meant.
BD
BD
Oh they would of got it one way or another.
😉
GF1
Yep when they saw your rear window as you left them sitting there wondering what just happened.
I am not discounting a small block ford 289 by any means as they can be quick little motors as well and always remember the owner of the first independent shop I worked at telling all us youngins with our hot rods that he could build a 289 ford motor and put it in a falcon and outrun all of us with our small and big block chevys. I did believe him as he taught me a whole lot in a short few years and he said that the 289 could be built to rev to 10,000 all day long and never grenade and with the right tranny and rear end it would be a hard combo to beat.
I know one of my best friends had a 64 nova wagon with a 283 power pack motor in it that was balanced and blueprinted with a M22 rock crusher out of a vette and 4.11 posi rearend and that motor would rev to 10k and he would come out of the hole at 8k and lift the front wheel a foot in the air and shift at 10k in every gear and we beat a lot of big blocks stop light to stop light with that car. if me and another of our 200 pound buddies would sit back against the tailgate when he launched it would drag the bumper on the ground for 50 feet throwing sparks everywhere and was way cool of a light show at night.
BD
BD
Funny you say that about the Falcon and 289.
My first car was a black 64 Falcon with a hi-po 289 4bl. 4spd and a 3.90 posi and red bench seat interior. Yes it ran its butt off. They were little short stroke (2.750″) high rpm screamer’s.
After having over 40 muscle cars through out time I can say they all could be made to run if you knew what you were doing.
Hi B.B and everyone else…
So today was my first day out in the farm shooting with my “new” diana 27. I was so impatient about starting to shoot with it and finally the wait is over. Now that I actually got to spend some time shooting with it I can say that it is without a doubt the best air rifle I ever held in my hands. Everything from the feel of the stock, to the amazing trigger and that divine accuracy… I spent the entire afternoon hunting with it and only missed 1 shot and I’m pretty sure it would be another dead bird if I didnt rush the shot that much. Easy to carry around, not loud and not uncomfortable. At about 18 meters (it’s as far as I’ve shot with it) it’s allways dead on with the open sights. I’m so glad I bought it… oh and I also fought my fear of disassembling her and put a new spring in there. Just great…
Diana 27,
Thanks for coming here to post. I am so glad about your Diana 27. Of course I already knew that it is a wonderful airgun.
Now, about disassembling the rifle — the trigger is very difficult to assemble again. You have toi pack it with sticky grease to hold the parts together.
And you do m=need to use a mainspring compressor. Not because the spring is so strong, but because there are so many parts that have to be held as the gun goes back together. You b=need your hands free during that time.
B.B.
Yes, it’s an amazing air rifle. I’m sorry I read what I wrote and I wasn’t clear. I already got the spring in the gun I found your diana 27 disassembly guide from 2008 or something I cant recall the year and it made my job easier. To decompress the spring I used my tractor from the farm which I used before for this job in other rifle I dont know how its called in english but that part on the rear works just like a spring compressor. I greased some parts of the gun but I did it fairly quickly because I wanted to keep shooting. Next week I’ll clean and grease it thorougly (I’m sure this last word isnt properly spelled). Thanks B.B!
-João
Diana 27,
Great! You assembled the rifle yourself. Good for you. That is where so many people have trouble.
Your tractor probably has a hydraulic lift that you used to compress the spring. That will work!
B.B.
Yes it’s a hydraulic lift! Now I’m just waiting for next week to go hunting doves and pigeons. Thanks so much for the support…
-João
Joao,
Another word for what you used is called a (3 point hitch). You may have been the first person to do this. I congratulate you on your ingenuity. Really, that shows some real skill and thinking in a way that most people would never consider. I am amazed. Way to go! 🙂 Chris
Chris,
thanks for the compliment! Well I guess I’m kind of a hillbilly. I had no way to get my hands on a proper spring compressor so I had to come up with an idea. Thanks again that’s awesome!
– João
I built my first one using the frame screw Jack from my Nissan and was able to do all the jacking with my fingers.
Reb,
Imagination allways finds a way am I right?
I got nervous about the pad spinning on the C-clamp and the bottle Jack was rack&pinion so no spinning.
Only if you really wanna get something done.
🙂
B.B.
After the good results I had yesterday I was curious enough to go out and buy a brand new Crosman 760. Nine consecutive five shot groups out of the box gave an average of .719 inches with Umarex BBs at five meters. Good for a 760 but not as good as the .483 yesterday. I did a lot more shooting, this time with oiled BBs, lead BBs and other brands with not much improvement. Ready to call it off when I went back to dry Umarex more for fun than any great expectation. Four consecutive groups averaged .531. Maybe the gun is breaking in or oil or lead built up in the barrel….anyway ithese two new models a LOT better with BBs than any other $30 760 with which I’m acquainted.
The point of this is to learn what factors lead to a really accurate BB gun like the 499. And can other designs like pump pneumatics be as accurate.
And then I read about really accurate pellet pushers in today’s blog……oh my
Fido3030
Fido3030
I have a rifled barrel 760 from when I was a whole lot younger. And a smooth bore 760 that I would guess is close to 11 years old. I taught my oldest daughter to shoot with it. She’s 18 now and was 7 when she started learning.
I do believe I shot bb’s in the old 760 as well as the old flat nose wadcutter Daisy’s in it. Was young so don’t remember real well how the results went other than we hit cans and bottles out in the woods and also we hunted as we called it and got a few birds and sqerrials.
But the newer 760 has seen mostly the round nose pellets and no bb’s and some wadcutters. Crazy as it may seem. It is a pretty accurate gun out to 35 yards even with the smooth bore barrel and pellets.
What I would like to see is how accurate and at what distance the accuracy is good at with a bb shot from a rifled barrel.
I have had a few Crosman 1377’s with a steel breech and Benjamin Discovery barrel, scope and 1399 stock. Very accurate guns even out to 50 yards with Superdomes to JSB 10.34’s.
Wish I still had one of the guns I just mentioned. I would try it. I know the rifled barrel and bb diameter are different. But maybe a certain viscosity oil would make a Avanti precision ground bb or even the lead bb’s a good candidate for a rifled barrel.
Gunfun 1
I’ve had very good luck with lead BBs in long barrel 1377s, and 2240s and a 2260 with steel breech. I like them for hunting because they are faster to reload than pellets. I also have had very good accuracy with H&N .179 lead BBs in a Daisy 880 since they will feed through the magazine.
BB did a comparison of RB vs pellets with the BBs having slightly greater penetration and the pellets slightly greater accuracy. I don’t remember the distances.
I have an older 760 that shoots 2 inch groups with steel BBs so these new ones were a pleasant surprise. I’d like to hear what experiences others have had with smooth bore 760s and steel BBs. I haven’t shot steel BBs in a rifled bore.
Cordially,
Fido3030
Fido3030
I tryed the H&N round balls (don’t) remember the size) in a Discovery years ago. Had fair results. Just never have revisited the round ball.
But your right about fast reload when hunting with the round lead balls.
I always liked the pump guns. But here’s a thought. What about a .177 caliber long barrel on a 2240 and a steel breech and 1399 stock. Had them too. But then trg to find a long smooth bore or even use a .177 Discovery barrel. And use steel bb’s with different viscosity oils lubing the steel bb’s.
What I’m thinking is maybe the Co2 will thicken the oil up some. Might be a problem though too. Could cause inconsistency’s with the thicknessof the oil as temperature changes. Like how it does when co2 is used. Then you might have two inconsistency’s working together.
Just thinking. Who knows what could happen unless you try. Right?
Gunfun 1
Now that’s an idea! I’ve put Crosman .177 rifled barrel on Daisy lever action BB guns with fair accuracy (muzzle loading pellets and lead BBs) with fair accuracy but I never thought of trying smooth bore or BB sized rifled barrels on the Crosman steel breach platform. Maybe I could line a .22 barrel. Thanks!
Fido3020
Fido3030
If you come up with something make sure you post what you find please.
I would be interested in something like that with lead balls for sure. But of course would like to know how it works with steel bb’s.
Take a look at these videos from the Pyramid Air Cup spring gun gunslinger competitions. FWB 300 beat them all shooting targets out to 45 yards rapid fire.
http://s22.photobucket.com/user/ateamray/library/2015 Pyramyd AIR Cup/2015 Pyramyd AIR Cup Movies?sort=9&page=1
Ray
Thanks for posting. But I can’t get the link to work.
I think it’s not registering part of it.
Would really like to see that.
Copy the entire link and then paste it into the address bar and it will work. Not sure why it didn’t register the entire URL link.
Ray
Ok thank you. Will try right now.
Ray
Yep that worked. Thanks. Cool stuff.
Pretty quick shooting. Looking at the side lever design and comparing to break barrels and under levers. The gun is always positioned basically to shoot. No lifting from the rest.
Now I know why I like the Diana 54 AirKings so much. Especially ones that have been made into bullpups for feild target. I keep telling myself I’m going to do that.
GF1
Yea its all about time and practice with each gun to get good with it so you know its limits and capabilities.
Those early 60s falcons were a nice small light car that could be real fast with all the right stuff and that one you had did indeed have the right stuff from what you said and I know you remember the Thunderbolts that ford made in limited number for racing only with the 427 or 428s in them as I forgot which motor they had but they dominated NHRA for several years.
We both had some fine fast cars growing up and just wish I could have hung onto a few of them with my 64 goat being the most cherished one since it was the one that started the muscle car craze in the 60s. Then there is the car if I had my choice of any one ever made I would still pick to this day ” 66AC Cobra 500 GT” in British racing green with white racing stripes.
BD
BD
The thunderbolts had a 427 side oiler like the Cobras.
The buddy I grew up with that we traded the 68 Canadian biult 442 back and forth with his Grand National that still owns my old 442. Wish I still owned the Grand National (by the way my first lap top computer drag car I had). His dad had one when we turned teenagers. I drooled on that car everytime he started it.
Yes I remember the thunderbolts and their factory fiberglass teardrop scooped hood.
BD
Wasn’t real clear there what I said.
His dad had a thunderbolt. That’s what the drool was all about when it started up. Talk about valve overlap. It weezed through the exhaust when it idled.
GF1
I thought they had the same 427 side oiler as the cobras but my memory was not running at full speed.
Yea I bet it rattled the walls when it started and they did have a lot of overlap so to the informed ear they did wheeze at idle real bad.
My friend dad had a GN and would let him take it out every now and then and boy was that a fun ride and a sleeper if you did not know about them.
the fastest car I ever got to ride in was another friends uncles 68 Yenko Camaro that was a full blown drag car with a tag so it could be driven on the street except when it rained since it had slicks for rear tires from the dealer.
I miss those days.
BD
BD
My buddies 76 Trans Am tube frame door slammer with a DRC pro stock block is the quickest car I ever drove. 8.15 at 160 mph.
But here’s a surprise. The fastest I ever drove was my 2006 SRT4 that I biult a motor for and spent way to much time tuning. It was running mid 11’s in the 1/4 mile at 127 mph but on the top end was real close to 180 mph. And it would do that in less than a half mile. Talk about a sleeper.
I made a run over to another shop to pick up a twin turbo 300ZX to install a couple of Flowmasters on and by the time it leveled out in 5th the Speedo was reading 150 mph, I blew right past the shop on my return flight.
But it couldn’t get the power to the ground very well.. Enter the Twin turbo Dodge Stealth AWD
🙂
Reb
Nothing like a high speed fly by. Just as long as the flight tower was clear and the flight boss didn’t have a cup of coffee in his hand. 😉
And when the Flowmaster mufflers came out the 2 chamber Flowmasters was the muffler of choice for the rest of my muscle car days.
Excellent mufflers. Loved that ping they made when a higher compression big cam engine idled.
That’s what I had on the El Camino with a 2.5″ H pipe.
Reb
One of the guys I grew up with that got me a job at the machine shop I worked at had a powder blue 78 El Camino SS with a 4spd.
We biult the 350 with 10-1 pistons and a healthy cam with 461 heads and headers.
He wanted to put a Pete Jackson gear drive in it because he liked the wine the gears and idler pully made.
I fought with him not to because they were so noisy.
You know what. That was my alarm clock for years. He lived a block over and I could distinctly hear him start his car in the morning before he came over to pick me up. Add in the sound of the 2 chamber Flowmasters and the headers and cam. It was a distinct sound that nobody would forget.
Nothing like the sound of a sweet running engine. But I bet the neighbors didn’t like hearing it at 4:00 every morning. Well now that I think about it. Maybe that car was their alarm clock too.