by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Benjamin’s new Bulldog bullpup big bore air rifle is a .357-caliber 5-shot repeater.
This report covers:
- Scoped rifle
- Feel of the rifle
- Tin Starr bullets
- Pellets are next
- Degassing the Bulldog
- Trigger-pull
- What comes next
Scoped rifle
Today, I’ll take the Benjamin Bulldog to the range to try it on targets for the first time. Crosman sent me a Centerpoint 4-16X56 scope and rings for the rifle, so they were mounted before I went to the range.
Centerpoint 4-16X56 is sized nicely for the Bulldog.
This is the first time I have seen this particular Centerpoint scope. Pyramyd AIR doesn’t carry it because it’s brand new and won’t be commercially available until later this year. I like 4-16x scopes anyway, and this one’s bright. The duplex reticle has mil-dots on both lines and appears to be etched glass. The crosshair is fine, but the mil-dots make it easy to find. The parallax focus is on the left side, where it is handy for adjustment. All in all, a nice scope!
I can’t sight-in the Bulldog in my house, so the first time I shot it at a target was on the 50-yard range. When I don’t know where the bullet is going, I always mount a larger 2-foot by 4-foot piece of paper behind the target to catch any stray shots. The bulldog was shooting about 12 inches low and to the right, but that was corrected with adjustments to the scope.
The first bullet I tried was the one I know does well in this rifle — the 145-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip. And, you’ll recall from Part 2 (velocity test) that I learned the first 5 shots are the Bulldog’s best. The second 5 shots lose a lot of velocity, and today I wanted to see what effect that has on the point of impact at 50 yards.
Feel of the rifle
Being a bullpup, the Bulldog’s sight line and comb are very straight, and I found it necessary to tilt my head over the action to see the image in the scope. Even with high rings, the scope is too low for me.
When the rifle fires, there’s a definite recoil. It’s not sharp — more of a rocket push to the rear, but it’s stronger than the recoil of a .22 long rifle in a medium-weight rifle.
Once I got the Noslers adjusted up to the bull (took about 4 shots), I settled down to shoot some groups. I filled the gun to 3,000 psi, again, and shot 5, then reloaded and shot a second 5. The first 6 bullets landed in 3.327 inches between centers, but bullet 7 hit several inches below the main group. The final 3 bullets were below the target altogether. So, the first 5 after the fill are the best with this bullet.
The first 6 Nosler bullets grouped in 3.327 inches at 50 yards, but shots 7 through 10 dropped lower. Only shot 7 is on the target paper (arrow). The shot next to it is one of the sighter shots and is not part of this group.
I adjusted the scope a little higher after the first group. Then, I refilled and shot again. The second group of 5 Noslers landed in 2.337 inches between centers. They’re nicely centered but still a tad low.
The first 5 bullets from the Bulldog after a fill are the most accurate. Five Noslers in 2.337 inches at 50 yards.
Tin Starr bullets
Following the Noslers, I had 6 different Tin Starr bullets to test. All were sized 0.356 inches, which is undersized for the Bulldog’s 0.357 bore. Airgunners are going to have to pay attention to these sizes just as they now pay attention to pellet head sizes, because they really do make a difference.
I had bullets ranging from 103 grains to 158 grains, so the gambit of bullet weights was tried. I don’t think the Bulldog can stabilize bullets longer than 158 grains; but when I shoot some more groups, I’ll know better.
All the Tin Starr bullets are pure lead — as soft as they can possibly be. My testing shows that soft bullets do best in big bore rifles. Most of the bullets landed in 5-inch or larger groups, but a 103-grain semiwadcutter did show some promise. While the 5 bullets made a 5.1-inch group, 4 of those are clustered in 2.092 inches. That gives me hope that the same bullet sized correctly may be a winner in this rifle. Remember that the AirForce Texan put five 215-grain semiwadcutters into 0.762 inches at 50 yards and 6 into 1.506 inches at 100 yards. So, we know these Tin Starr bullets work — and work well.
Five Tin Starr .356 bullets went into 5.1 inches at 50 yards, but 4 of them are in 2.092 inches. This shows promise.
Tin Starr has already cast and sized the same bullets in 0.357 inches for the next test. I hope to get back to the range this week.
Pellets are next
I also want to test this Bulldog with 9mm diabolo pellets. I have some on hand already, and the rest are on order. This test will continue for several more range days, because I am also writing a feature article on the Bulldog for Shotgun News.
Degassing the Bulldog
Blog reader Tim asked if there wasn’t a degassing tool to let the air out of the Bulldog’s reservoir. There isn’t, but Crosman did design a way of releasing the air.
Ed Schultz called me after reading Part 2 and told me there’s a 3/32-inch Allen screw next to the fill nipple. Loosen that and the air comes out. I checked the manual and sure enough, it’s in there!
The Allen screw for degassing the Bulldog is located deep inside the stock, next to the fill nipple.
Well, wouldn’t you know it, I forgot to take my trigger-pull gauge to the range this time. So, I did need to let the air out of the gun at home after all. Dry-firing a big bore in the house — even one with a shroud like the Bulldog — will definitely disturb the domestic tranquility.
The screw is right where Ed said it is, and it works by simply loosening it. I released 2500 psi from the gun; and at the end of the release, the rifle’s valve popped once, weakly. Then, I could test the trigger-pull all I wanted.
Trigger-pull
I told you before that I thought the Bulldog’s 2-stage trigger-pull is good. Now, I have the numbers! It releases at 2 lbs., 5 oz. and is very crisp. I know bullpup triggers are supposed to be awful, and the dozen or so I’ve tested in my lifetime all have been. This is the first one that was not. You should have no complaints about this trigger.
What comes next?
I plan on spending a lot of time with the Bulldog. This was just a quick first look. There are many more bullets and pellets to be tested, and perhaps even a 100-yard test if the accuracy of one or more bullets proves good enough. So, settle back — we’re in for a long ride.
Well that’s good news about the trigger and my .25 caliber Marauder has that rocket push when it shoots also. It doesn’t seem to affect accuracy from what I can tell with my Marauder anyway.
And I did want to mention the fact that you said the Bulldog was shooting low and right. So that means you adjusted the turrets up and left. So that means that the reticle moved away from the spring tension in both directions.
Does the turrets on that scope have the lines to see how far from center that they are adjusted at? And could the reticle be getting close to floating that could cause bad groups.
Not that those are bad groups but I was wondering if you were keeping that in mind when you was zeroing the scope and shooting the groups.
GF1,
Up is away from tension, but left is towards it.
B.B.
BB
Oh yea brain not engaged. When the turrets are screwed in that is putting more tension on the spring. So yes adjusting left would be turning the turret in.
Kinda sounded liktit was bombin’ to me but if you’re still feeling’ up to it I’ll be right here with ya!
Well, personally I am underwhelmed. I do not much care for the looks of this thing anyway and with this level of accuracy I would need it to not be shrouded so I could at least scare something to death with it.
I don’t know, maybe I am just expecting too much from big bore air rifles. You would think 2 MOA would be pretty easy out to 100 yards. The Texan managed to pull that off. I will have to say that having the correctly sized bullets may likely improve this, but nothing is going to help the looks of this thing.
Now the scope looks real promising. Something like this might even talk me into buying a Centerpoint, especially if it has a reasonable price tag.
RR,
I am just getting started with this test. The Texan also went through this early teeth-cutting drill until I found the right projectiles.
Don’t write something off until it has been given a chance.
B.B.
BB,
Well, it is just a personal thing. I do not see me owning this thing except if I can pick one up at a price that will allow me to make a profit when I sell it.
I do hope you are able to find the right projectile for this thing. It would be nice to see some better grouping out of this thing. I also think that with a little more time the right projectile can be found for the Texan. Poor accuracy is what killed the Rogue. That and it was mud fence ugly.
Gunfun1,
You back? Hope you got all settled in. I posted the same thing BB said, but a bit longer. It did not post.
Edith, I tried the “log in” for the first time and it said that the user name contained incorrect characters. I used Chris,USA. Am I missing something? Also, it would be nice if the message was not deleted if one were to forget to answer the math question, which I think I have done in the past. No big deal for 1 sentence, but frustrating for something longer. Maybe just (re-direct you back to the post) so that you can answer the math question?
Thanks, Chris
Chris,
I think using a comma is a problem for the login. Can you try without it? We have over 67,000 registered users now, and none of the names have a comma in them. You can use periods/decimals, but not commas.
Edith
Edith,
Thank you for the reply. I will try it without the comma.
I guess the obvious question would be…( What is the advantage of logging in? ) Once posting a reply, all that is left to do for future replies is to do the math question, as the “handle” and e-mail address are already filled in.
Also, as asked above, if one does forget to do the math question, why does it deleate the post? As stated above, it would be much nicer to just get re-directed back to the post to answer the math question and hit “post comment” once again.
Don’t mean to be a pain and I do appreciate all your efforts.
Thanks, Chris
Chris,
Yeah, logging in once a day to make comments bypasses the math question and repeatedly entering your name.
I’ll have to find out if there’s a way to let you stay on the page with an unpublished comment and simply get a notice that you must answer the math question. It doesn’t make sense to delete what you’ve written.
Edith
Odd… (This is a test — I’m going to not answer the question and hit submit).
I got
and hitting the back button on my mouse brought me back to this page, with the first sentence still in place…
And the Name/Email fields get filled in by Firefox (but that may be due to some setting I made)
That math problem’*s evil and the more you try using it the worse it can get, besides once you’ve finished your account you can use the dashboard to watch what’s being said on any of the previous blog entries
Chris, USA
Didn’t you always have a space after the comma? That’s the way I have been typing your name when I reply to you.
And yep I just responded to BB above. Brain not fully functioning yet. Turning the turrets in makes more spring pressure.
Still got to get some things in place and finish getting some of the wife’s stuff Friday then we should be done.
But I did get to shoot The day evening for about a hour finally. Had to get me a different setup worked out. Ended up with five 2×4 blocks duct taped to a folind saw horse with a folded soft cloth laying on it while sitting in a folding chair so I could support my back. I shot some .800″ groups from the Tx, and LGU and the .25 Marauder at 50 yards. Was only shooting 5 shot groups because didn’t have much daylight. So it seems to be working. And shot the Monsoon standing and unsupported at some pinecones laying on the ground at about 30 yards out. So that was fun to shoot.I think the last day I shot was last Thursday so I was ready.
Suppose to say got to shoot Tuesday. And should say folding saw horse.
GF1,
Chris may have put a comma in his name when just commenting without logging in, but that doesn’t mean he can register using a comma in his name. I’m just guessing, but that seems to be the case.
Edith
Edith
You got me. I just thought I remembered he had a space after the comma and then the capitol letters USA.
I thought maybe when you register your email with your user name that the user name had to stay exactly as you registered.
Or is that what you mean.
Gunfun1,
Glad to hear you are “seeing the light at the end of the tunnel”. (the move)
And yes, I usually use a space after the name. I got some new Stanley saw horses a while back. They adjust out the top from 31″ to 35″. I got some wood ones out in the shed and plan to “size” them for an outdoor range and leave them set up.
Not much has changed here. Weather still not good for a full day outside. Since we are on the same Latitude, you get the same weather we do except you get it a day or two before we do.
Group sizes continue to improve, with all pellets touching 90% of the time. A lot of 5 shot, 3 hole’rs. +1000 shots, so gun break in and me getting better is most likely the reason for the improvements.
Interest in PCP’s has increased and looking into a Vortex HO kit for fps increase, ( but want to know the fps increase before doing it to see if it will even be worth the 80$ ), but still want to see what it will do outside at longer ranges “as is”.
Also got all 8 pellets chronied successfully, so now I at least have some “start” data.
That’s about it, Chris
Chris, USA
I tryed BB’s mono-pod hold again and it wasn’t as stable as I like for testing pellets or groups so I did the saw horse thing and its as stable as when I was resting the gun on the window sill at the old house.
The mono-pod hold will be usefull when shooting out in the field when maneuvering around plinking or hunting after I know for sure the gun is shooting like I want.
Was going to ask this before and I keep forgetting. Have you ever heard of tying a small diameter rope from one tree to another that is about 3 or 4 feet apart and laying a cloth on the rope to protect the guns finish and use that as a rest. It also works nice strung across a door or window frame. You have to get the height figured out for where to tie to comfortably rest the gun. Like if you will be standing, sitting or kneeling. Its actually pretty stable. If you try it let me know what you think.
Gunfun1,
No, I’ve never heard of that. Very unique, but makes perfect sense. Notes made for future reference.
As for the mono-pod, mine is great,….but I would not use it for testing, groups or data collecting. When at (MY) best, I would give it a 90% in comparison to a bench rest.
Chris
Chris, USA
I agree with you on the mono-pod. To me its more stable the way BB uses it verse a bi-pod hold.
And yep when I’m testing I want my rest to allow me to repeat my hold easily without trying to find that right position.
And tell me. Have you looked into a Discovery and hand pump combo yet? I think if you ever had a way to try out a pcp gun you would be hooked. To me they are a less finiky gun to hold and shoot. Its a shame that Pyramyd AIR doesn’t have a facility at their Ohio location so a person could come and sample some demo guns.
Gunfun1,
A test location at P.A. ???? Edith,…are you seeing this? Again,..$$$$
I like Buldawgs idea of welding tanks for refill. When I see hand pumps with with re-build kits included, that does not sit well with me. And compressors are too expensive. Yeah, I got expensive “taste”, but those are “off the menue”.
It will be awhile for a PCP, but am very curious. I like the idea of VERY well regulated valves for shots per fill, (fill range), and shot consistancy. =$$$$????
First,..I would like to boost the TX for the flattest shooting, at the furthest range, while still getting as smooth shot cycle as can be, with a power boost. Another words, max. it out, then move on to PCP’s.
Chris
Chris, USA
That reminds me I was going to say something the other day when you and Buldawg was talking about the welding tanks and I was caught up in my moving thing and couldn’t reply.
But I was having a problem with one of my cylinders on my Shoebox compressor and couldn’t keep a o-ring from getting out of round. Long story short Buldawg and I researched the cost of renting or buying and having nitrogen or compressed air tanks filled verses how many fills that could be had out of a tank and cost.
First off a 6000 psi tank would be needed to be able to get a reasonable amount of fills per bottle. And of course the 6000 psi tanks are more expensive plus fittings, hoses and a regulator would be need to reduce the psi output down to 3000 psi.
The amount of shooting I do on a 3 day weekend every week of the month would have me filling a 6000 psi tank almost 3 times a year. That would equal out to about what I paid for my Shoebox compressor and oil-less shop compressor from Home Depot.
So what that means if I would be renting and filling the 6000 psi tank or buying the tank and filling. I could just about buy a new Shoebox and small shop compressor every year.
And that was figuring the cost of my Shoebox at around 600 dollars and the small shop compressor at 150 dollars back about 4 or so years ago when I bought mine. The new upgraded Freedom 8 Shoebox that Pyramyd AIR sales now is close to 8 or 900 dollars now I believe. Its been a while since I checked the price.
So there is decisions to make if you get into pcp.guns. I would just get a hand pump and a gun if I was starting out to see if you like pcp’s or not. You could always sale them if you didn’t like it. But on the other hand if your like me I couldnt just have one after I tryed them. So the thought has to be kept in mind if you just might really like them and get more. Then a compressor may be the way to go.
Oh and you could probably get away from the regulator on the 6000 psi tank. But to me I would spend the extra money on the regulator to be safe.
GF1,
Starting out with a hand pump is one way I think to dislike PCPs! I am fortunate to have lots of dive shops close by. I have never used a hand pump so I am comparing it with a multi stroke pnuematic which I have. I do mighty little shooting when I have to pump.
Ton
I will have to agree that once I got my Shoebox that I started shooting my pcp’s more.
But I did shoot my first Discovery and Marauder for about 2 years using the Benjamin hand pump. And I will say that the Discovery is not bad at all pumping from 1000 psi to 2000 psi with the hand pump. It took about 48 pumps to get about 30 shots.
Now on the other hand the Marauder took around 75 pumps to get about 30 shots and that was from 2000 to 3000 psi. And that was a bit harder.
But what I was letting Chris know was that there is more options to explore to fill a pcp gun. And there will be a initial cost of some sort to fill the gun.
I just figured it would be easier to sale a Discovery and hand pump if he ended up not liking a pcp. Someone might not like the side of buying a used scuba tank or the high cost of a Shoebox. Although the Shoebox is still a pretty good deal.
One way or the other you know. Everybody likes something or not for a reason.
Chris, USA
And I should say that I caused my problem with my Shoebox by over lubing it. And I messed up one hand pump for the same reason.
BB says to not lube the hand pumps if I remember right and when I got a new hand pump I followed his advice and have not had any problems with the hand pump.
And the Shoebox does need lubed. But very minimal lube should be used.
So don’t let the rebuild kit worry you. About the only o-ring that does go bad is the little high pressure white o-ring. It seems to get hard and cracks from heat I believe.
If you want to get a good quality hand pump that people usually only have good things to say about it. Get a Hill hand pump.
And you want to here something funny. I was always weary about getting a spring gun because I thought the springs would fail. And of course the more you dig into something the more you learn about the myths and the truths.
Chris try you a pcp and as I say. I think you will be surprised.
Gunfun1,
Thanks for that info. I will “boil it down” and make notes. Your info. is a bit different and new, so it will be a nice addition to my PCP notes.
Comments from other posters and Buldawg gave me the impression that you could go straight from a welding tank to the gun, with a regulator. I believe it was something like 200 for fittings, etc. and 100 for a filled tank.
And no one mentioned a shop compressor, so how does that factor into things?
My comment to Edith was in reference to a conversation that took place a few days ago. Basicaly, it was that PA should have a showroom that you could visit and cherry pick guns and such. Your comment of a test range would be a nice addition to that “fictional” showroom.
Chris
The shop compressor is the first stage feeding a ShoeBox compressor… Nothing to do with any precharged tanks.
Chris, USA
Yep Wulfraed answered you about the shop compressor. The Shoebox compressor does not have a intake air supply. You have to feed it with 85 to 100 psi depending on what options you have on the Shoebox.
Just like hand pumps the better pumps like the Hill pump have a air dryer/ filter for the intake air. They are 3 stages of pressure usually and some are even 4 stages. And that all happens automatically when your pumping up and down.
And as far as the nitrogen and welding tanks the price of the tanks varies by location. I believe it was a higher cost in my location than Buldawgs.
And I think I remember seeing that when you were talking to Edith about the P.A. show room.
Hi guys…
I noticed something weird.
I went on a little pellet buying spree again. Umarex now has a “match” pellet that’s still pretty affordable at at € 3,99 / 500.
I also bought some Umarex Mosquitoes, Cobras and H&N Sport. The Mosquitoes should be 0.44 grams, the Match 0.48 g, the Cobras 0,54 g and the Sport 0,53 g.
Still the Mosquito tins were slightly heavier than the Sport and Match. The Cobras were by far the heaviest. Seems the weight figures don’t make a lot of sense or the numbers per tin vary (the same kinds were consistent from tin to tin, though…).
The tins themselves are very similar I think. It is said that Umarex ammo is made by H&N anyway…
I guess I should start shooting 🙂
Stephan
B.B.,
12″ low at 50 yards would require about 96 clicks (four clicks = 1″ @ 100 yards) elevation would it not? Higher rings would require even more, unless “droop” compensated.
As an experiment, when you shoot over your chrony, maybe lightly lubricate some of the bullets and see what effect it has on velocity and accuracy.
Bugbuster
Bugbuster,
Every time I have lubed lead bullets for big bore airguns in the past, it has hurt their accuracy.
B.B.
Even though changing bullet weight is one of the opening moves to do gain accuracy, I think you meant gamut of projectiles.
Hi BB,
I’m almost to the point where I am going to purchase an Airforce rifle. You’ve given me a lot of great advise about purchasing a .22 Talon SS with the optional 24″ barrel, and frame extender.
I was wondering, if noise was not an issue, would you still opt for this setup, or would you just go with the .22 Condor SS?
Also, if you weren’t able to purchase the optional 24″ barrel and the frame extender for the Talon SS, would you still opt for the Talon SS over the Condor SS, just because you enjoy the Talon SS more than the Condor SS?
Thank you,
Doug
Doug,
I like the Talon SS with the 24-inch barrel the best. That’s in .22 caliber. The reason for that is I get 2/3 the power of the Condor with the same number of shots of an SS, which is about double that of a Condor.
I can dial the power way down on the SS and use it as an indoor plinker. The Condor isn’t as friendly that way.
As for the CondorSS, you probably saw that I shot a one-inch 10-shot group at 100 yards with the one I tested. That was impressive, I will admit.
B.B.
B.B.,
Off-subject, but I reread your reports on the Umarex Colt Single Action Army BB gun and can’t find the trigger pull results. Did I miss them somewhere?
Thanks,
Michael
Michael,
No. I didn’t list the pull. It’s 1 lb. 9 oz.
B.B.
B.B.,
Man! For a BB gun, that’s amazing. That’s amazing, period.
Hmmm. Maybe I need to come up with an excuse for the spouse for getting that one. (Too many boy’s toys have shown up at the doorstep lately.) Tax day? April Showers Day? Naw, I don’t know an April, much less what day she showers.
Must. Get. Colt. Single. Action.
Thanks as always,
Michael
Hello BB and Fellow Airgunners
The past few weeks I have been busy with spring yard clean-up, and getting my garden ready for planting when the weather warms the soil a few more degrees. Spring has to be my favourite time of year. Most of the trees beginning to green up, and bulbs planted in the fall producing a colourful array of flowers. Not to mention the return of the song birds, and the Osprey that nest each year on a pole 100 meters from my back yard. Of coarse I still find an hour or so each day for some informal plinking on my 25 meter outdoor range.
This Benjamin Bulldog big bore seems to have a few well thought out features. It appears Crosman has offered a first rate trigger on their inaugural bull pup. Breaking clean at 1lb 9 oz makes it the type of trigger we would all value on our airguns. The one feature I am finding hard to accept is the over all look of the gun. The shroud gives the rifle a top heavy look to my eyes, while the but looks as though it were sawed off. I know BB is just in the initial stage of matching the gun with an accurate bullet, so I won’t comment on the groups shown in the pictures. At this time, I have no desire to buy a big bore airgun, but I know there are quite a few readers who are avid big bore fans. I also think that lessons, and technology learned from the Bulldog will find its way to the small bore plinker models. It may not be my cup of tea, however our sport can only gain by a new model such as the Bulldog. I’ll be waiting with interest to future long range accuracy tests.
Ciao
Titus
I have an errand so I’ll finish calculations later. However I’m intrigued with how to throw out a “flyer” in a five shot group.
I used model of X-Y dispersion with a standard deviation of 1 in both X and Y. Generated 65,000 random 5 shot groups. For each group I calculated the 5-shot group size, then for that group the 4-shot group size throwing out the worse shot. For the 65,000 sets I then computed the ration of the (5-shot GS)/(4-shot GS).
I sorted the ratios, and at the 61750th value (the 95% limit) the cutoff is 2.26.
BB has a 5-shot group with Five Tin Starr .356 bullets which was 5.1 inches at 50 yards, but 4 of them are in 2.092 inches.
5.1 / 2.092 = 2.44
Since 2.44 is above 95% cutoff, we’ll throw that value out. But since we have a quasi-5-shot group we now need to multiply by a fudge factor to get it to an estimated 5-shot group size. The fudge factor is 1.425. So the best estimate of the 5-shot group size is:
2.092 * 1.525 = 3.190 inches
!@#$%^&*
2.092 * 1.525 = 3.190 inches ** Wrong **
2.092 * 1.425 = 2.981 inches
Herb,
How is it that you even know this stuff? If I did not know better, (which I don’t), I would swear that this post was a continuation of yesterday’s April Fool’s article.
As for some of my own calculations,…99% of people have “no clue” as to what this means. Of that 1% remaining, .25% might have a “slight clue”, another .25% might have “some clue” and yet another .25% might have a “pretty good idea” of what you said. The final .25% know “exactly” what you said.
But you know what,… that’s what really nice about this site,…we get all types of people, from all walks of life.
I love statistics and data, but at a much simpler level.
So,..if I surmise correctly,…BB did BETTER than your calculations predicted?
No, BB didn’t do “better than” the statistical predictions. You must realize that you can’t “prove” anything with statistics. You can just infer with some degree of probability
The point is to use statistics instead of a “gut feel” so that you don’t get fooled.
BB had the following as a caption: “Five Tin Starr .356 bullets went into 5.1 inches at 50 yards, but 4 of them are in 2.092 inches. This shows promise.” So the caption alludes to the notion that the group size shouldn’t be as bad as 5.1 inches, and more like 2.092 inches for a four shot group.
I was working to try to put that notion on a firmer theoretical basis. My initial analysis would indicate that the widest shot can be considered to be a flyer, and that the estimated average group size would be something like 3 inches. This isn’t as good as 2.092 inches but it isn’t as bad as 5.1 inches either. Since this is just one value (and fudged a bit at that) the true 5-shot average at the 95% confidence level should be between something like 50% to 150% of 3 inches or 1.5 inches to 4.5 inches. Of course if you shot more 5-shot groups the confidence interval would narrow.
No doubt the model that I’m formulating isn’t the “absolute truth,” but it is probably close enough to the truth to be useful. The gist is that to determine that the model isn’t true would almost certainly require much much more data than the average shooter would collect. In order to disprove the model you wouldn’t need five or ten 5-shot groups, but hundreds.
—–
To answer the other part of the question, I’m an analytical chemist by training. A grasp of statistics is a requirement to compare analytical techniques, and to compare chemical standards against samples. You also have to understand sampling. So I get a train boxcar of a chemical. how do I select a 10 gram sample from the tons of material in the boxcar?
Doug,
I was in the same situation as you. I wanted a PCP but did not want to have to purchase a scuba tank for filling and reading people’s comments about it being difficult to fill with a hand pump scared me from buying. However, I searched the internet and read nothing but positive reviews about AirForce guns and especially the Talon SS. Do a search and read all of BB’s reviews of the Talon and using a handpump to fill a PCP.
I bought a 0.177 Talon SS along with a 0.22 24″ barrel and frame extender. I also bought an AirForce pump. I primarily shoot targets from 10-30 meters so The 0.177 works perfect. I’ shot the 0.22 just to try it and it’s awesome. Its nice having so much versatility that the AirForce guns give you. The Talon SS provides way more power and velocity that I need. The 24″ barrel provides the power for longer shots and for hunting if I ever need it. I’m set up for a survival situation.
Using a hand pump is nothing like people have said. If you follow what BB has demonstrated on how to use the pump, it’s actually pretty easy. I’m 54, in pretty good shape, and I don’t break a sweat or get out of breath hand pumping the tank. It takes just over an hour to fill from empty but that’s because I stopped every 5 minutes as BB has recommended to let the pump cool down. Slow deliberate strokes and it’s a piece of cake. It takes two 5 minute sessions to refill from 1800 psi. The gun has way more shorts left below 1800 psi. I just stop shooting at that pressure to make it quicker to refill.
I absolutely love the Talon SS. It’s very quiet, accurate, and light weight. I recommend a frame extender if you get the 24″ barrel. I got mine from R&L Gun Supply. That’s who AirForce referred me to. The extender works to quiet the shot. Don’t let hand pumping scare you. Follow BB’s instruction video and go for it.
Spidey
Glad you wrote about the hand pump and Talon SS. I had a.177 cal. version. And I also bought a 12″ .25 cal. barrel for mine. But I bought the .177 and .25 cal. sound lock kit from AirForce for mine. It was a nice combination with both barrels.
And your right about the hand pump. They are not as bad as what I heard some people say. And I still have mine for back up if something goes on with my Shoebox.
The pumps are just like anything else. Learn the right way to maintain them and they will be good for a long while.
And do you have any other pcp’s by chance?
Gunfun,
The Talon SS is my first PCP. I bought the R&L Shroud to use with my 24″ 0.22 Cal barrel. It’s just as quiet as my stock 0.177.
I have an RWS model 34 in 0.177 caliber and a Benjamin model 392. I like the model 34 but it shook apart The RWS scope that came with it and The rear open sight spring isn’t stiff enough to keep the rear sight from backing out. My scope and rear sight are both at Umarex for repair.
I really like the PCP. It’s now my favorite gun.
Spidey
After I got my first Discovery awhile back it was all over. I went pcp gun crazy.
Tryed more than I can remember right now and each was a unique exsperiance. Definatly a cool power plant idea for a airgun.
Do you have any other pcp guns on your mind yet to possibly consider for your next gun?
Gunfun,
Eventually I’ll buy a 24″ 25 caliber barrel for my Talon. The other PCP guns are just too heavy to be practical. As soon as I looked into the AirForce brand and all they have to offer, I was all over it. I really like how easy it is to change out the barrels and how quiet they are with the shrouds.
Spidey
Sorry didn’t get back to you yesterday. Plain wore out from moving. I ended up falling asleep.
But I was going to ask have you spent much time with your Talon yet and what pellets have you found that work for you? Sorry for the questions. I just like to hear if someone has had good luck with a pellet I haven’t tryed.
Gunfun
I’m definitely no expert when it comes to pellets. That being said, the 12″ 0.177 and the 24″ 0.22 barrels shoots very accurate with just about any pellet. I like the Crosman Premier Ultra Magnums. Plus I believe they’re made in the US. I try and buy American as much as possible.
Like I said, I’m no expert and maybe others could jump in on this topic
Spidey
That’s exactly what I wanted to know is what you know your gun likes.
Everybody has different ideas of what something should or shouldn’t be. The main thing is that your happy with the results you get.
Any thoughts on trying some round balls? Any idea what the barrel measures out to be? That way you might be able to order some that actually fit!
John,
Crosman told me the bore is .357. Maybe I need to slug the bore.
Round balls are never as accurate as conical bullets. I would expect a round ball to group 2-3 inches at 50 yards.
B.B.
The reason I ask is because my dragon claw will do around an inch or less at 50 yards with a properly sized round ball using a 9x scope.
But its a group of two, I should add before the pressure varies. Add about an inch or inch and a half for 3.
John,
How about 5 or 10?
B.B.
I found out my single tube (was previously tuned and shoots these at an even 300FPE) Dragon Claw does best if I start at about 165-170 bar. If I shoot two shots and refill, I did three groups .82″, .85″ and 1.27″ consecutively. So there is some decent accuracy with a tight round ball. I followed your advice and used an allen wrench to try and seat them.
But two per charge is the limit if I’m going for max accuracy. Filling to 200 bar I shot 2.85″ for three with the second and third being 1.27″. Did another and it was 3.08″ for 3 and the last two were 1.24″.
Going for 4 in one fill-it was 5.125″; 2.54″ (shots 2-4); 1.22″ (shots 3-4). So it tells me that .82-1.25 is repeatable at a lower fill (165 or so). But unlike your Texan or perhaps the ‘Dog, I’m only good for two at a time if I’m trying to group.
Pretty sweet for something that shoots RB’s that cost about 15 cents each! Someday I’ll break the bank and try out some slugs.
I’d like to try one of these Texans or Bulldogs, but only if I can get reasonable (similar) groups using affordable ammo.
Whoops..I Mis-spoke:
Going for 4 in one fill-it was 5.125″; 2.54″ (shots 2-4 or maybe 1-3??); 1.22″ (shots 2-3).