by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
UK maker Don Robinson made this beautiful BSA Airsporter — a trademark of his work on airguns!
This report covers:
• Air Arms Falcon pellets
• Shooting technique
• RWS Superpoint pellets
• Scope is broken!
• Pellets that don’t work in the Airsporter
• The best pellet
• More photos of the stock for Joe
• What’s next?
Got a lot to cover today, as I test the Don Robinson BSA Airsporter’s accuracy at 25 yards. A first shot at 12 feet confirmed the gun would be on paper at 25 yards, so sight-in didn’t take long. Once I shot from 25 yards, a couple scope adjustments brought the groups where I wanted them.
Air Arms Falcon pellets
First to be tested were Air Arms Falcon domes with the 4.52mm head. They grouped in 2 different places, so I didn’t finish the group. I did try shooting the Airsporter directly off the sandbag, however. Three shots told me it wasn’t the way to go.
Shooting technique
This rifle wants a deliberate artillery hold, with the shooter as relaxed as possible. Any tension will throw pellets wide, which I will show in a bit.
RWS Superpoint pellets
I tried RWS Superpoints next. I tried them only because they’ve done well in taploaders in the past. This time, they produced the second-best group of the day, with the seeds of greatness in it. Ten pellets made a 1.143-inch group at 25 yards, which is hardly a good group. But within this group, 7 pellets landed in a group that measures 0.541 inches between centers, and I’m almost certain that I pulled the other 3 shots. In a moment, I’ll tell you why I can’t be certain.
Not a good group until you examine the 7 pellets that are all together. Group measures 1.143 inches, with 7 in 0.541 inches. I was tense for those last 3 shots.
Scope is broken!
By this point in the test, I realized that the Hawke EV Airmax 3-9X40 that’s on the rifle is broken. It looks clear for the shot, then it goes out of focus afterward. Sometimes, a second shot clears it up again. I thought the parallax adjustment was loosening, but it turns out the objective lens or lenses is/are loose in their mounts.
I completed this test with the broken scope, and I know some of my shots were not as good as they could have been. If I had more time, I would have mounted a different scope, but I was on a tight schedule to get this report completed, and I’d already used up several hours working on another gun that will be used in a future report. So, I put my head down and finished the test.
You might think this was a waste of time — testing a rifle that has a broken scope. Let me explain why it wasn’t. Although the scope isn’t working as it should, I was able to tap it after each shot and vibrate the lenses back into focus — sort of. I can’t call this a perfect test, but I can learn enough to rule out some pellets and to identify those that will be worth shooting when I test the rifle, again. That’s what I did. Although this test isn’t conclusive, it did help me test this rifle.
Pellets that don’t work in the Airsporter
Besides the Air Arms Falcons, I identified the following pellets as not that accurate in this Airsporter:
H&N Baracuda Match with head size 4.50mm
H&N Baracuda Match with head size 4.52mm
JSB Exact 8.4-grains
BSA Wolverine pellets
The best pellet
Given the ambiguity of this test, it’s not definite that this is the most accurate pellet in this rifle. It just turned in the best 10-shot group in this test. The H&N Baracuda Match with head size 4.53mm put 10 pellets into 0.704 inches. Seven of those pellets went into 0.35 inches!
Ten H&N Baracuda Match pellets with 4.53mm heads made this 0.704-inch group at 25 yards. Seven are in 0.35 inches. This is pretty good; but, again, I tensed up at the end!
More photos of the stock for Joe
Blog reader Joe asked for more photos of the wood carving on this rifle, so I’m providing them here.
This is the underside of the butt. At the top, you can see underneath the raised cheekpiece.
This is the underside of the pistol grip. I think the initials are of the person for whom the gun was made.
Most of the underside of the forearm is taken up by the cocking lever. The carving does extend to the edges of the cocking slot.
The ebony forearm tip is also carved, though not as elaborately as the rest of the stock. Ebony is a very hard wood to carve. Here you can see the spring-loaded detent button that locks the underlever in place when it’s stored.
When an air rifle is hold-sensitive, like this one, it’s hard to hold it correctly for 10 consecutive shots. If it was the only rifle I owned, I would eventually get used to it and the groups would tighten. But, right now, I have to concentrate for every shot. I think that’s why the shots are going wide at the end of each string.
What’s next?
I’ll replace the faulty scope with one that’s clear, and I’ll shoot this test, again. Next time, I’ll know which pellets to use. It should be interesting, because I think this rifle will turn out to be quite accurate. We’ll see.
Beautiful rifle BB. This is off subject but I have a pistol question to throw at you. As a beginner air gunner at the ripe old age of 77 been fascinated with the pistol aspect of the hobby. For the past six months or so have read your blogs and bought several nice pistols that have been recommended. Among them is the 1377, 2240 and Vigilante. I also enjoy the non blow back Makarov BB pistol. Despite some of the negative comments on seal failure I bought and enjoy the Beeman P17. That has to bee one of the best buys on the planet, of course I have had good luck, but the darn thing is miserable for me to load.. I am looking to upgrade to at least one more expensive gun. I am considering the Webley Alecto . Is it any easier to load pellets then the P17 ? I do not intend to hunt with it,so won’t worry about the 3rd pump, just want a accurate paper puncher and think 1 pump will do fine. Thank you and Happy New Year ,l
Harvey,
I forget if you have responded in the past so I will welcome you to the blog.
The Alecto is an okay air pistol, but my vote would be for the Beman P1 or the HW 45 (they are identical). It is sized and configured like a 1911 pistol and is supremely accurate. Unfortunately, loading is just as difficult as with the P17.
The Alecto is going to load very similar to the P17. Read my report:
/blog/2010/11/webley-alecto-part-4/
An accurate pistol that is also easy to load is the Diana LP8. It also has a great trigger and adjustable sights.
B.B.
Forgot to thank you for your reply. Thanks BB . Your experience is very valuable to us newbies !
Harvey, I don’t have experience with the air pistols you have, I have however had a Beeman P1 for about 25 years. That gun is the best shooter imaginable, good trigger, very accurate, very consistant. I found that loading wadcutter pellets to be a little tricky, the front is a bit difficult to get into the breach. Using the round nose pellets eliminates that problem, of course when shooting paper you don’t get as clean of a hole punched. I stick with the lighter round nosed premium pellets, my P1 shoots most of them very well. I like Falcons and JSB RS pellets the best. Something that is new for me though is a cure for my ailing eyesight. When I started needing reading glasses a few years ago my handgun shooting suffered to the point that I was not very interested in shooting them. Earlier this year I put a dot sight on my P1. Wow I can see that sight and the target perfectly, at the same time! My P1 is back! Back then when I spent over 300$ on that pellet gun my friends (devout powder burners) looked at me like all my grey matter was oozing out of my ears. It has been some of the best $ I have ever spent. Good luck on that next air pistol purchase.
Hi Mark T and thank you very much for your input. I can not begin to compare with your experience with air pistols. An old guy with failing vision buying plastic wrapped pistols so far, so really do appreciate your comments. The last air pistol I bought was the was the Benjamin Trail NP. Even with the nitro piston technology the recoil of that thing drove me nuts. I put a red dot sight on it and never could get it to stay in place for over 25 shots. The recoil would move it to the very back of the pistol, regardless of how tight I tightened the screws. Kind of soured me on spring type guns, however I do have a real cheap keeper. This is the little Browning Buck Mark. BB stated in his reviews that the Buck Mark is not a heritage gun, but for around $40.00 I shoot it till it quits. The break barrel design makes it very easy to load pellets. I normally just shoot at bb gun ranges of around 15 feet and with red dot make a great plinker. Like I said earlier just starting out in the hobby, but think it would be nice to have at least one high quality pistol to leave to my heirs. I have found I do like the lack of recoil on the P17. You are correct in in stating wad cutters are hard to load. Thanks a million and Happy New Year. PS, this has been greatest , relatively inexpensive hobby I have found in my retirement years !
Harvey, I have used the BSA red dot sight on two air guns and had good success with them. I used a less expensive one first and it’s performance was far less than acceptable. The recoil of the P1 is quite gentle but it is there. As much as i love my P1 I do have a new favorite. No recoil, even more accurate than the P1, perfect trigger, and very quiet. It is a Crossman Silhouette 1701. It is low power so it is only good for targets but man will it shoot! Being a pcp there is a larger initial investment. I bought a hand pump with my first pcp, did not take long for me to order a air tank to save all the effort. Wish i had never spent the money on the hand pump. I am a certified diver so getting the tank filled at my local dive shop is easy and convenient.
Good Morning Mark and again Happy New Year. I appreciate your comments. I will research the Crossman 1701. I think a pistol of that type would have to be on my long list due to the cost and complexity but the technology sounds like it is there. I am retired Electric Power Substation Technician and in some of our bigger stations we had GE ATBs. These were huge power circuit breakers operating at 230,000 volts. They used very dry compressed air to blow out the electric arc when they were called on to interrupt fault. The had a 15 HP 3 phase 480 volt motor that drove a 4 stage pump. Anyway, sorry for the ramble but some crew members would use them to fill up there dive tanks. They supplied 3000 psi of super dry air at the storage cylinders. If I had only known about pcp guns back then. I thought a air gun was a Daisy Red Ryder . Thanks again for your thoughts,.
Best wishes
Harvey
Good morning Harvey and Happy New Year. The world is indeed a small place. I too work for a utility, however I am a pipeline welder in the gas dept. for our local gas and electric co. I too was recently surprised by the advancement of air gunning in the last few decades. I have owned the P1 and a RWS Diana 45 for the last 25 years and shot them a lot but was completely disconnected from the rest of the world of air gunning. A year ago I stumbled onto a utube video that was from a high speed scope camera on a pcp air gun and the world of air gunning exploded right in front of me. It has been fun studying and learning from BB and the other regular contributors of this blog. Have a great year Harvey.
Hello Harvey,
I have the P17, Alecto Ultra, and an HW 75. They are all SSP’s (single stroke pneumatics except you can pump the Alecto more than once, to great advantage. Since they lack the recoil of spring guns, you can shoot them rested on a bag for amazing accuracy. I have greatly improved the ease of loading in all of them by removing the barrel and gently tapering the breech using a tapered dremel stone and some oil.
The P17 and Alecto have single stage triggers with long travel, and a release that is far from precise. They are relatively inexpensive but with a little barrel polishing can deliver excellent groups. The HW75 is expensive but extremely well crafted. The molded grip is wonderful and makes the gun feel one with your hand. The trigger is why this pistol costs so much more; it’s and extremely well made, adjustable two stage trigger. You cock the hammer on the rear of the gun first and then you have extremely precise control of release with a light second stage. Using a 2.5x BSA scope and a rest, the HW75 is capable of 1 hole groups at 15 yd. If you want an accurate, low powered paper puncher with an exquisite trigger and no recoil, the HW75 is worth saving for. Its report has less of a pronounced crack than the P17 or Alecto.
The P1 is a completely differed class of pistol, being spring operated. Althoughit also has a light and precise 2 stage trigger, the spring recoil causes pronounced frame jump and I required SIGNIFICANT amounts of practice and attention to control control it reliability. You cannot shoot the P1 accurately with the frame directly bag rested. I rest my wrists on a rolled up towel and use a red dot sight to extract the best performance from this one.
Hi Feinwerk ! Very nice to meet you. I tried replying earlier but somehow messed up so hope this is not a dupe. Your shooting experiences with the SSP pistols sounds great. How much distance is there between the barrel latching pin and the breech on the Alecto ? I measured 1 1/16″ for that dimension on the P17 Thank you for your suggestions for shooting the springers. At this point in time, think I will get the Alecto. No technical reason, just a bit lower price and something other then a Crosman to add to my beginning collection. I certainly will research the HW 75.
Happy New Year
Harvey
Hi Harvey,
I’m currently away from home and can’t make that measurement for you. I have the .177 cal Alecto Ultra, with the longer barrel, and I recommend it for the velocity boost. One pump will work for short range plinking or paper punching. With 3 pumps, the ultra can be used for small pest control @20yd or less. Mine was very accurate with baracuda match 4.53mm head size and 3 pumps. I have not done a definitive pellet shoot off with one pump, but I would start with JSB rs 7.33 grainers.
The Alecto has the best implementation of an automatic safety that I have seen. It’s very easy and ergonomic to flick out of the way with your trigger finger.
Hi Feinwerk,
Thank you for ithe infomation on the Ultra. I did not realize it had a longer barrel . I learn a little more with blog member’s posts. This is such a nice vehicle for sharing knowledge. Best wishes
Harvey. When I get the pistol will get a tin of the JSB 7.33 grainers for evaluation. Thanks again.
B.B.,
Very nice rifle and beautiful carving. Some of the close ups are very intriguing. I have always liked working with wood, but never to anything in that degree. Some of the work looks stamped and some even sand blasted.
For those of us that appreciate fine wood work, a suggestion for a future article might be the art of stock carving in of it self. Maybe with a prof. stock carver if you know any. ( like, this tool will give you this look, this technique is used to achieve this,…you get the idea). While many of us appreciate fine engraving, most likely, many do not know what it takes and a report of such would only serve to heighten that appreciation. And maybe, some work is done with a laser.
And while very broad, an idea of how much this adds to a cost of a rifle vs a plainly finished one.
Chris,
Unlike you, I am of the group who detest elaborate carving, most especially when it covers up what is obviously a beautiful piece of wood such as this.
To me, this type of elaborate carving should be reserved for a plain chunk of wood like steak sauce should only be used on a tough piece of overcooked steak to make it somewhat palatable. I would prefer there be no checkering unless it can be done to enhance the beauty of the grain, which I have seen on occasion.
Several years ago I sat down with Gary Barnes and discussed his making a particular air rifle for me. I asked if it would be possible that there be less elaborate engraving. When all was said and done, he politely declined my business. He is an artist. I prefer the work of a fine craftsman.
Chris USA,
You probably haven’t read where I “carved” (gnawed) the Bronco stock to fit a peep sight, but many readers know that I shouldn’t be allowed to anything with wood other than burn it in a fireplace.
B.B.
Chris USA,
I see I didn’t answer your question about the cost of this rifle. Figure 2500 British pounds — give or take.
B.B.
BB.
That’s a substantial amount of money, would make me cautious while shooting it. Best to just hang it on a wall. Take good care of it (him/her/old Betsy).
Chris in Ct.,
From the previous days blog, the only other air gun I own is a Beretta 92FS pistol which I have commented on in the past. The BSA’s you are considering all look very nice and are styled in a manner that also is appealing. There is no shortage of finding something to “drool” over in today’s air rifle market.
I did a lot of research and learned a lot. Read enough and ask enough and you will see several models/ brands keep popping up over and over. Depending on your taste and budget,research all of those and you will be off to a good start. The P.A. site customer reviews are nice as well. It took me over 2hrs. to read the TX200III reviews and note customers likes, dislikes if any and pellet preferences. Of coarse, that being what it is, you have to take all comments with a grain of salt.
The other thing for me is that I shoot left and there are not many models that have a dedicated left stock. Some ambi. and most right or none at all. And of course,..all the great people here which are a bunch of straight shooters that won’t send you astray.
Chris,
If you’re still looking for a gun, and want something a bit interesting, I believe the Weihrauch 98 (also sold as the Beeman R11 and sold very long ago as the Marksman 56 FTS) have ambi stocks and are perfect for lefties. Being a break barrel, they’re also a bit easier and faster to load than a rifle with a sliding compression chamber like the TX200 or HW97K. Regardless, the TX is a fine gun.
Chris, USA,
I am also a lefty with rifles ( I shoot handguns right handed). I have found that most air rifle dealers (P.A. is one) will order pretty much any rifle you want with a left handed stock provided the manufacturer makes left handed stocks. Most do or either most of their rifles are ambi. To date I have never paid a premium for this, of course it may take 4 to 6 weeks to get the gun. Good luck.
G&G
Chris USA
There are plenty of current production guns that I drool over. But I must advise you to go to some of the airgun shows. I personally attend the NY Baldwinsville “shoot an show” and the now late CT Windsor show. You will be blown away what you find and be able to cherry pick. I now have about 90 airguns in my collection, it getting difficult to store and maintain all I don’t remember what I have anymore.
B.B.,
Your posts continue to widen my horizons!
I noticed that you were careful in your list of inaccurate pellets to state that they were so in “this” Airsporter. Have you ever tested identical guns side by side to compare accuracy between individual guns? In researching the guns I happen to own, I’ve noticed that particular pellets do a little better or worse in my guns than they do in others’. Though generally they are still in the ballpark as far as “accurate” or “not accurate”, I’ve also had pellets one reviewer finds very accurate in their gun to be terrible in mine of the same model. Just wondering if you’ve ever looked at this specifically.
HiveSeeker,
No, that is a test I have not done. It would be interesting but I doubt I will ever get to it. Too many things on the plate.
B.B.
Also, off topic but in order to not add to your daily email intake: what materials do you use for shimming your scopes? Preferably materials that won’t mar the scope–seems like the aluminum soda can strips I’ve seen mentioned would do that. Anything commercially available like the strip on UTG scope rings?
HiveSeeker,
My experiences with shimming scopes have left a bad taste in my mouth. What I have been doing recently, especially since many scopes I have bought have Weaver mounts with them is use these things.
/product/hawke-sport-optics-1-pc-elevation-adapter-3-8-to-weaver-rail?a=4163
/product/hawke-sport-optics-9mm-11mm-dovetail-to-weaver-rail-7-2?a=5065
They grip real well, have a stop pin if needed and allow you to compensate for a considerable amount of droop.
HiveSeeker,
Check out McMaster Carr for shim stock and any other hardware that you can imagine, if they don’t have it, it doesn’t exist.
HiveSeeker,
RidgeRunner and Zimbabwae Ed are correct, shimming scope tubes is NOT a good practice, even if done with care. If too much torque is applied to the ring cap screws, the tube can be irreparably damaged.
HiveSeeker,
I use laminated I.D. badges, soda bottles and aluminum cans.
B.B.
Don´t get me wrong, but I am a bit surprised by all the “Ohhh”s and “Ahhhh”s regarding this rifle, at least from this very demanding community. This rifle has some of the worst carvings I have seen, and it certainly not “royalty grade”. Come on people, look at the carving quality and motives: This is a very poor job.
Luso,
Welcome to the blog.
While this rifle’s carving isn’t the worst I have seen, I agree that it is far from the best. It is what I would call folk art. Some parts are better than others.
At the SHOT Show I get a kick out of the people drooling over the Perrazi shotgun display, where there are individual guns with a price tag over $150,000. Yet when I examine the checkering, there are always small flaws.
I once saw Mad King Lugwig’s bed in the Neuschwanstein castle. The bed is covered by carvings of the steeples of famous churches all over Europe. Don’t look close, though, because the carvings break down upon examination.
On the other hand, the choir pews in the cathedral at Ulm have some of the most beautiful and elegant bas relief carving I have ever seen.
Great carving is uncommon, in my experience. But the carving on this rifle does lend a pleasant air of elegance to what is already6 a very streamlined rifle. At last I think so.
B.B.
I have to agree with you concerning the quality of the carving. Of course, as I stated above, I think the rifle would have been beautiful without the carving. Everywhere the carving isn’t is a gorgeous piece of wood.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Hiveseeker– In my opinion, if you need to use shims, you should consider using Burris Signature rings with there inner offset plastic inserts. BB–Many blogs ago you said that Edith was going to order a set of these rings so that you could test them. Is that report still pending, or has it fallen off the plate? Happy New Year to you and Edith and to all the readers of this blog. Ed
zimbabwae ed,
I ordered the rings the very day he said he would test them.
Edith
Edith et. al.
They are in my testing box. But testing them takes so much time that I can’t combine it with anything else, so they get bumped.
B.B.
Thanks, all.
Zimbabwae Ed, the Burris rings look like the best (though most expensive) option.
THANKS for the good info on scope failure. I’ve experienced this myself on at least two airguns, and while I knew something wasn’t right, I’ve been coping with it. I guess now I’ll have to experiment a bit to see if your “hint” of light rapping restores the focus WITHOUT readjusting it, or if I HAVE to open up my wallet to replace these. Sad to say, my wallet isn’t as accomodating it “used-to-could” 🙂 —Barrika
BB,
I cannot figure out why this gun would be so hold sensitive. In my experience the lower powered and calmer firing guns seem to be more forgiving of hold. Is there something about this gun in particular that you think is making it so sensitive. Maybe an overly long piston stroke for the velocity it generates.
Sam
Sam,
To tell the truth, this rifle isn’t as hold-sensitive as some I have shot. Some of the hyper-velocity guns are way more sensitive than this. Even the Beeman R1 is more sensitive.
But — and this is very important — if you don’t relax before the shot, this gun throws them wide.
B.B.
BB
I wonder why the lens was coming loose on the scope. Do you think somebody could of been trying to experiment with adjusting the parallax like on a fixed parallax scope for some strange reason before you got the scope. I see it has the adjustable front parallax in the top picture.
Or maybe you had it on a magnum springer in the past and it got shook loose?
GF1,
Even this Airsporter has enough impulse to loosen the objective lenses. I think that is what happened.
B.B.
BB
So the gun does have a pretty good bump to it.
Do you know if anybody has ever tried to come up with a rating scale for a spring or nitro piston gun of how much recoil they make? Kind of like the noise rating that Pyramyd AIR uses for how loud the gun shoots.
That way when we try to describe the recoil of the gun we would have a better idea about it.
GF1,
Not to my knowledge. I think that would be difficult to quantify.
Scott is an engraver. Engraving means metal, not wood. When it’s wood you call it carving.
B.B.
BB
You would think there would be a way to rate the recoil from 1-5. How do you define sound from the air gun. Loud 5, 3 medium, 1 quiet.
Well why not the same for recoil. PCP a 1 for soft, a standard springer or nitro piston a 3 and magnum a 5 Not that hard.
Ok so Scott engraves. Have you got any guns with his engraving work?
GF1,
No. Scott is a world famous engraver, like Alvin While and Heidi Hiptmaier. I can’t afford this work.
B.B.
BB
Wow really. So he does a good job. I’m going to search and see if I can find some of his work along with other two people.
I myself think it is interesting to see the designs they come up with.
Oh and since we are talking about engraving. You mentioned the other day when we was talking about PilkGuns that he was a engraver.
Do you know by chance what kind he does? The wood stocks or the metal or all. Just curious.
B.B.,
Having just ordered a scope, and being assured that todays scopes are up to the task of todays air guns, did I miss something? ” Even this Airsporter has enough impulse to loosen the objective lense”. Do Magnum air guns require something special? (not the TX)
Chris USA.
Yeah most firearm scopes are not spring gun rated, PA sells mostly air gun rated scopes but to be safe I would buy the scopes with lifetime warranty. Some even state they are magnum rated.
The PA website does say the Hawk scopes are magnum rated.
GF1,
Whenever a new scope line hits Pyramyd Air’s website, the first thing I do is contact the mfr and ask them if their scopes are rated for magnum springers. I always cite the Webley Patriot, which is known to be a scope breaker. In most cases, they say their scopes are rated for magnum springers. In one specific case, I was told they didn’t know if it was rated for springers or magnum guns, so I added to the description that you shouldn’t use it on spring guns.
Edith
Edith
Does PA still carry that brand of scope that they didn’t know if it was spring rated or not.
Really I don’t want to know if they carry that scope or what brand it was. But couldn’t you imagine if you put that down in the description. I can just see it now.
Manufacturer of scope doesn’t know if their scopes are rated for recoil of a magnum springer. Use at your own risk.
Do you think the manufacturer would wake up if you showed them that.It just makes me wonder how some products can even make it to market.
Edith thanks for trying to give a honest description of products. That has to be a nightmare at times I bet.
GF1,
I don’t write that the mfr doesn’t know. That wouldn’t be very nice and would make the supplier look bad. I just state that the scope cannot be used on magnum springers. On the other hand, the guys who import the BSA scopes are on the ball. When I inquired about their Contender line of scopes, they told me that these specific models are not braced for the harsh 2-way recoil of magnum springers. Click to see the Contender scopes.
Edith
Edith
No no. That’s not what I mean. I was just giving a example of what (could) be wrote so the manufacturers that don’t research or know their products could see that they need to educate themselves.
The descriptions at PA are done nice. In other words good job Edith for what you do. 🙂
Chris USA,
Most scopes are properly braced fopr airguns today. But they do get a lot of quick vibration, and some can loosen like this one seems top have. I find the Leapers brand to be pretty rugged, and AirForce scopes also seem good.
The other brands, to include Leupold, vary in quality by model. Some are good and others aren’t. For example, a Leupold Vary X III is a wonderful scope, but a Vary X II is a cheapy that is known to sometimes be less than clear.
B.B.
Edith, BB– thank you for the prompt reply to my question re Burris rings. I look forward to your test results. Ed
BB.
Did you buy this BSA or is it a loaner? If a loaner what did the price tag say?
Chris in Ct,
B.B. has stepped away from his computer for a few hours, so I’ll answer. He got it at the Texas airgun show last September. He’s not saying what he paid/traded for it 🙂
Edith
Chris,
I bought it from Ron Robinson — he’s no relation to the maker, Don Robijnson.
It was priced at $600 at the Texas airgun show.
B.B.
Edith.
Oh okay. I don’t want him to get in trouble, because he told us Ron went home with it after the show. Thank you, that is a sweet gun.
When testing pellets in a gun, do you just go from one to another, or take a few shots with the new pellet to ‘season’ (I guess that’s the word) the bore?
SS,
I generally go from one to the next without seasoning. When I test I have so little time, because I have 5 blogs a week, plus magazine articles to get out. And testing takes so much time.
Not complaining — just saying.
B.B.
I understand. I have just been wondered if seasoning made a difference.
SS,
Many people, including Kevin Lentz, believe that it does. I am on the fence about it. Sometimes I think it does and other times I can see no difference. Maybe it depends of the gun?
B.B.
Chris in Ct.,
Wow,…90+ huh? That is a bunch. Most would be jealous, but I can see that it would be tough to keep track of. As for air gun shows, I will keep an ear out for any nearby. I work a lot and do not travel much but we will see. I would have loved to “cherry pick” the TX I just ordered. Hopefully it will have some “character” to the walnut grain.
Evening all,
Thank you to the replies. I will have to agree that the engraving is a bit crude on a second look. As to RidgeRunner,..an artist and craftsman can be/are one in the same. Both can vary in degree, but when you find an elevated level of both combined, you have something.
Just caught my 2nd. episode of American Airgunner. P.A. should make past shows available on their website. (Hint,,,B.B.) Once it’s aired, post it,..(plain) and (simple). They owe that to their customers. The show was about the US Field Target Nationals in Yegua, Texas. Interesting! I got some questions in the future on competition. Also, AAFTA, which I will also check out. And some coyote pursuit with a Sam Yang Recluse.
Somebody was talking about splatology the other day and I thought I would post a picture of some pellets I picked up out of my catch pan from today.
A couple are from the .25 cal. Marauder and some from the .177 TX and the .22 cal. LGU. If you look close enough you can identify what caliber pellet it is by the round skirt of the pellet. Anyway here’s the picture if anybody wants to look. Oh and that’s at 50 yards at a steel spinner.
http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag362/gcars/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141231_164901904_HDR_zps66af75b3.jpg
Gunfunn1,
Very cool. I wondered what that meant and had a pretty good idea, but your pictures are worth a million words. I got a sheet of steel today at work to back up my in house target. It’s 16 degrees here now and will stay cold for a few. If I want to play with the TX, I will have to do it inside, when I get it.
Chris, USA
I guess that’s what they mean by splatology. I think they were talking about a pendulum to measure foot pounds of energy by how much it moves instead of a chrony and the splat is the result.
Anyway yea you don’t want to shoot no holes in the walls that’s for sure. 🙂
Gunfunn1,
I would agree,… there should be some measuring device that would measure recoil. While not a powder burner, I would guess that powder burner guns would already have a rating for this as they have been around much longer. Think about it,..even something as simple as a bathroom scale that held it’s peak weight would work.
Chris, USA
I’m not positive but I don’t think they even use a device when the do the sound rating in a guns description at Pyramyd AIR. I believe it is a guess.
Now on the other hand when they do a video review of the gun the do use a measuring device.
So not sure how the web page description is done for sound. But if it is a guesstimation then why can’t it be done for recoil.
Recoil is a big deal in the accuracy of a air gun so to me if its not being rated that’s a mistake.
Gunfun1,
I am 100% sure there is a measuring device that measures decibels, (sound intensity). The safety guy at work even has random workers wear a device that measures this, sends it off, and post the results.
Chris, USA
Your missing what I said. There is measuring devices and they use one when they do the Pyramyd AIR video reviews.
But I don’t think they use anything to measure the sound when they say the sound rating on the air gun description. I think they guess the rating number.
Look at the TX on the website. I think they have it rated as a 3 in loudness. How did they come up with that number?
Gunfunn1,
Think of a sledge hammer hitting a steel beam,…call that a 100 decibal. Now,..run a cordless impact on a 3/8″ bolt,…call that a 50 decibal. Then run a drill,… and call that a 10 decible. The numbers are fictional. What OSHA considers loud and would require hearing protection, would be 100, for example purposes.
Chris, USA
I should of said look under the guns specifications. Not description.
GF1,
No, that’s not quite right. Spaltology was “invented” by Gary Barnes to determine how fast a lead ball was traveling when it hit an immovable steel object. That way we could determine how fast the airguns of old shot, since they were tested by firing against steel plates.
The pendulum arm moves and distorts the splat by removing some of the energy.
Read the entire report here
/blog/2009/09/splatology/
B.B.
BB
Thanks for posting that link. I just read it and the comments. That was a very interesting read.
Did you ever write about the Pendulum?
GF1,
I just typed ballistic pendulum into the search box above and this came up:
/blog/2009/12/the-ballistic-pendulum/
B.B.
BB
Thanks for posting about the pendulum also. I was going to search it and post it here if I found something. Figured since we were talking about splatology it would be good to reference it here real quick also.
And i did read it. Cool stuff.
Reminds me of snowflakes….each one is unique
Feinwerk
That is true. Each pellet definitely tells a story doesn’t it.
Just posted and it did not show up. Trust me,…take a loud gun at X decibal level and I will bet that PA calls that a 5. Take a weak one and they will call that a 1. Keep in mind, there will be decibal #’s for this and hence they have a upper and lower range in which to judge airguns.
Chris, USA
Same if a air gun has a recoil.
5 it hits hard. 3 not so bad.
1 real nice, didn’t feel hardly anything.
Chris,USA and Gunfun
They do use the decibel meter when they evaluate the guns on the PA videos and I would say that is what they use as a loudness gauge like you stated Chris
I know at Harley they did a bunch of sound testing and the bikes had to pass a certain decibel level in what they call a pass by test which involves the bike being ridden past a decibel meter at a certain distance from it with the bike in 4 gear at 30 mph at wide open throttle.
Chris , You should not have an issue with a scope on the TX unless it is a very cheap scope as the TX does not have a great deal of recoil to damage a good scope and I believe PA states in their scope rating under specifications if it is Magnum springer rated.
Edith if that is not correct then please correct as to where it is stated.
BD
Buldawg but not on the web page when you pull up a gun you want to look at.
Under specifications it has barrel legnth, type of power plant, weight of the gun. Single shot or repeater. If the barrel is smooth bore or rifled.
And how loud the gun is. And its rated 1-5 and not by a decimal meter like the videos use.
Gunfun
I understand what you are meaning in that they use a 1-5 scale for the loudness of the guns, but I believe that the number is based off of a range of number from the decibel meter. Like a 5 would be from 110 to 125 decibels and a 1 would be from 80 to 95 decibels and so forth .
I do not know what the ranges are but it would be a actual value based system instead of just a guestimate as you were stating,
I agree that a system for rating the harshness of recoil would be a huge benefit as it would have kept me from buying the Benjamin Trail NP2 only to find out that Crosmans claim of it being smoother and less recoil than a standard NP gun is way off base. In my opinion they dropped the ball with the NP2 big time as the Benjamin Titan NP that I had that is now the Vitamin that you have is way way smoother and almost no recoil as compared to their new NP2 will ever be unless they go back to the drawing board and start from scratch all over again. They need to turn the gas ram back the way it is in the NP guns as I believe the added weight in the piston end has a lot to do with its harsh and heavy recoil and if they had a scale from 1 to 5 for recoil the NP2 would be a 5 and the NP would be a 1 in that type of scale system that they use for loudness. The Crosman Venom that I still have and the coil spring Firepower clone is like night and day difference as compared to the NP2 is in its shot cycle and that is why it is going back Friday for a refund and I will find another plain NP gun in 22 cal . You can attest to how well the NP that you got from me shoots.
BD
Buldawg
I left a reply but of course it didn’t make it through.
I don’t think you were reading the blog when BB reviewed the AirForce Condor SS. It was listed at a 2 or 3 originally on the number rating scale in the specifications.
Then BB thought the gun was louder than originally thought so Edith updated it to a 4.
So I don’t know 100% how that rating system works for sound.
I do know that there should be some kind of rating system for recoil.
And come to think of it they have some kind of rating that they categorize what type of gun should be used for what kind of animal you can use that type of gun on.
So why would it be so hard for a recoil rating.
I think the manufacturers should have that on their box’s they ship their guns in. At least it would be better than their velocity hype.
Buldawg
The Vitamin is not a 1 if a pcp is a 1. And if your NP2 is a 5 what is a magnum springer then. Remember the scale only goes up to a 5.
So see we could put a rating on recoil and it could help a person to know what to expect from a air gun.
Maybe for 2015 it is time for a change.
Gunfun
Yea I don’t think I was reading it when he reviewed the Airforce condor and I was just assuming that they used some sort of decibel range for their loudness ratings but it sounds like you are right in that it is more based on individual person interpretation of the loudness.
Yea if they can rate for noise and energy required for clean kills on certain animals then they should have a rating for spring gun recoil and harshness.
I was just using the 1 and 5 ratings for the recoil of the vitamin versus the NP2 to state that there is a huge difference between the NP and the NP2 , but you are right a PCP would be a 1 and the Vitamin and my venom and firepower would be a 2 or 2 1/2. But the NP2 in my opinion is a definite 5 as it reminded me of a better looking and feeling in my hands than a Gamo yet was so unrefined in its shot cycle that if I did not know the difference I would swear it was a Gamo whisper spring gun because it hurt my shoulder when it fired and was just plain horrible to shoot.
BD
Gunfun
The NP2 is rated or should I sat touted as a magnum springer which I will say it did shoot faster than a NP by about 70 fps for any given pellet but it was so harsh in it recoil that I would rate it a 5 as a definite.
BD
Buldawg
See that’s what I mean about a recoil rating system.
I can understand now that the NP2 really is equal to a magnum springer since we put a number to it.
I could rate every one of my air guns that I own by a 1-5 recoil rating.
That way when I say my tuned TX is really like shooting a pcp. I mean it is really a 1 and is comparable to a pcp.
It would take the confusion out of what a gun feels like and help give a better understanding of shooting performance.
And if some body wanted to get technical they could probably use one of those digital readout scales they use for testing how many pounds of pull a trigger has.
Gunfun
we used the same pull force gauges at Harley for testing clutch lever pull, brake lever pull, belt tension rating and several other form of measuring in either direction of pull or push do yes they could be rigged up to a shooting stand that uses a sledge type system that would allow it to move in both direction with the gun strapped into it and the gauge hooked onto the sledge moving portion of the stand and all you would have to do is pull the trigger and you would have pounds of force in both directions and would be able to use those numbers to assign a rating system.
I can assure you that when a gun is in development it is tested for that exact same effect of shot cycle or if it is not then the engineering is not up to par for being capable of designing a quality air gun. if a air gun company does not put a gun through several thousand shot cycles while measuring every thing possible to be measured then they are not building a quality gun and thereby not delivering a quality product to the public.
At Harley we had bikes with strain gauges and potentiometers attached to every moving part of the motorcycle with a 30 pound box full of data capturing equipment wired into all the gauges and potentiometers to gather every input possible that the bikes was encountering while being ridden in several different duty cycles. So I know for a fact that the shot forces can be measured and recorded to give a rating for what the gun will shoot like to give the customer an idea of comparison to use to judge different gun against one another.
BD
Buldawg
Yes all in all plain and simple it would be a way to know what that gun is like to shoot in many ways.
It could take a while to implement if they went the technical route.
But if they would go through and rate them by a 1-5 rating now by what people have experienced and that is agreed on it could be put into place pretty easy.
And again I think that’s how the sound rating is done now on the 1-5 rating.
Gunfun
The manufactures could easily furnish that info to the distributors as I know they measure it and have that data because if they dont then how do they no they are improving a product or making it worse.
Its not rocket science I mean come on with any R&D work everything that can be measured or recorded is done to know if they are moving ahead or backwards in the development of a product.
BD
Buldawg
True if they actually really do research and development.
We do it at work all the time.
Its called process improvement. It benefits a company many ways. Some will argue that it costs to do research and development. But in the long run if it makes the process better and the product better there Will Be more satisfied customers.
Gunfun
I don’t believe they did much on the NP2 that’s for sure. I swear it reminded me of the Whisper I bought without the spring twang noise.
I just cant see a company as big as crosman even letting this go out to customers with the claims of new and improved it should be new and less improved
BD.
Gunfun
Happy New Years
BD
Buldawg
And a Happy New Year to you and your family.
And tell your wife I said Happy birthday. 🙂
Gunfun
Yep will do and its going to be a good year for us all. Maybe when I get my disability we will get up in your neck of the woods and can actually shoot together for a few days.
I am going to wait and hope I get a message from the seller on armslist for the NP and can get it on its way as I just am not sure about the 177 on gunbroker as I would have to get a 22 barrel and it has the piccatinny rail that I am not fond of so I may wait and just the right deal will come along since PA would not come off the price of the new 22 titan.
BD
Buldawg
I do hope this will be a good year.
Time Will Tell
Gunfun
Time will tell for sure and it the only thing that never stop for anybody.
BD.
Buldawg
True that.
Gunfun
I am getting ready to call it a night so talk tomorrow.
BD
Buldawg and Chris, USA
Here is the TX. Click on specifications and look at the loudness rating. It is a number rating of 1-5.
Its not in decibels. If it was decibels it would be something like 98.5.
/product/air-arms-tx200-mkiii-air-rifle?m=174
Chris, USA
What I have found about the Pyramyd AIR website is they want to convey as much of the truth about a product that they can.
That’s why I do most of my shopping with them. A recoil rating would be one more benefit to the customer. However they would come about a way to rate the recoil.
Chris, USA
Look at the link I posted below and click on specifications. The loudness is rated on a scale of 1-5.
Not in decibels. If it was decibels it would be something like 98.5.
Well it is above. my post ended up in the wrong place.
Hey, BB, nice write up, as usual.
As 2014 draws to a close, I just wanted to say thank you for a couple of things.
Thank you for the recommendation on the Daisy Avanti 499; I got the word from my pastor that his son LOVES his new 499! He shot it Christmas day, and shot it well; looks like he has the makings of a life-long shooter (thanks to getting started with an accurate gun!).
And, I want to thank you for your blog; it’s pretty much the first thing I read every day when I log onto the internet. I may not always comment, but I read all your write ups; so, thank you much and keep them coming!
I wish you and your wife a blessed and awesome New Year! =)
Dave,
Thank you for your kind words. When I write the blog I think of readers like you. That keeps me focused on what is important.
I hope that you have a happy and prosperous new year, as well!
B.B.
BB.
Its been a while since you did a write up on PA, I think we would like to see more of the inner workings of the operation and especially Mr. Josh private collection . I’ve seen a tiny glimps of his collection in his office on one of American Airgunner episodes. He seem like a humble person.
Chris in CT.,
Josh Unger is one of the most interesting people I have even known. I wouldn’t call him humble, as much as genuine. You always know where you stand with him.
I have asked for more of the PA story, but Josh is so busy that I don’t think he can take the time. I do know PA started out in his basement in Cleveland.
It’s been a wild ride!
B.B.
No one has mentioned this yet but isn’t it amazing how a seemingly insignificant change in the head size of a pellet transformed the performance? I think this phenomenon is still relatively unknown by relative newcomers and worthy if its own blog.
I have also found the 4.53mm head size of the. 177 baracuda match to be the top performer in several guns. You don’t say how bad the 4.52’s were, but since you didn’t show the groups, they must’ve been poor.
I think most people would buy a pellet and not realize it came in different head sizes. They might try just one size with poor results and then conclude that the gun or that pellet were no good.
Fortunately, Pyramyd lists the head sizes on the website, so if you read carefully, you can pick out the ones you want. The head size is usually printed on the bottom of the pellet tin. I usually write it on the lid to make it easier to organize my collection.
Feinwerk,
See todays blog. I just commented on this.