Today reader Ian McKee, whose blog handle is 45Bravo, tells us about a recent firearm purchase he made. Although he says this isn’t about airguns, as the series progresses airgun things will creep in.
If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me at blogger@pyramydair.com.
Take it away, Ian
How good is a sub-$200 “Glock 19”?: Part One
by Ian McKee
This report covers:
- I bought one
- My experience with the platform
- Side note
- The aftermarket market
- It’s ready
- Follow your own path
- As it came from the factory
- The slide
- The frame
- At the range
- What will I change?
Hello everyone. Today’s report is going to be a little different and not directly airgun related. In case you missed it, Pyramyd AIR is now selling firearm ammunition, and just like the pellets, buy three, get the fourth item FREE!
You will see a lot of “air quotes” in this blog, since this is a copy of a Glock, not an original one. Think of it like the “Benjamin Franklin” air quotes B.B used in a blog a few weeks ago. It is a play on the name.
One night a friend and I were communicating via text message while surfing the web and stumbled upon a Halloween Sale from an online retailer that happens to have a storefront here in Houston, TX.
They were offering a fully assembled “Glock 19”-sized slide with all the internals for $159 plus tax. Then we found a completed serialized frame from the same retailer that would fit the above mentioned slide for $59.
Wow, just a little over $200 for a new complete 9mm Glock clone, that is unheard of!
I bought one
So I pulled the trigger (pun intended!). As I am writing this, the retailer is running a Black Friday deal for the same package, but with a reduced price on the slide, frame and Texas sales tax. The local pickup price is $194.41. So like I mentioned in the title, under $200.)
My experience with the platform
Being an addict of anything with a trigger, I have always tried to keep up with what is new. I bought a Glock 17 (9mm) when they were first introduced (Gen 1), then later a Glock 22, and a Glock 27 (both in .40 S&W caliber and Gen 2.5). I have used them for over 30 years. Then I bought a Gen 5 Glock 44 in .22 LR caliber. So I have experience with several generations of the Glock platform.
Side note
The Glock model numbers run sequentially as they were introduced — starting with the number 17. Many people think it got that model name from the seventeen rounds it held in the magazine, but it was actually the 17th patent Gaston Glock was granted.
The model 17 is a full-sized pistol, the model 18 is a select-fire version of the 17. And the model 19 is a compact version of the 17, shorter in both length and height — thus holding two less rounds than its larger counterpart, making it somewhat easier to conceal.
The aftermarket market
Many companies offer frames and slides. You can also buy all of the internal bits and bobs individually to customize your pistol. There are companies that do nothing but specialize in aftermarket parts for the Glock platform. But almost all of the parts are considered “upgrades”, and as such they tend to be more expensive — often adding several hundred dollars to the cost of the base gun.
So Glock clones were a rabbit hole that I knew existed, but never pursued because of the cost.
It’s ready
I received the email that it was ready a few days later. I stopped by the storefront and filled out the required paperwork. My friend picked up one too. His is in FDE color (Flat Dark Earth) while mine is black. Other than that, they are identical.
We are starting a series of videos. He has already started to throw aftermarket upgrades at his pistol, and polishing bits before even firing a shot. (He had never been inside a Glock before.) So I pointed him to a couple of videos about assembling one, and he took the knowledge and ran with it.
Follow your own path
I am determined to follow the more budget-friendly path, only “upgrading” things I see as a shortcoming or things that just don’t work for my philosophy of use.
As it came from the factory
The slide and frame both came as completely assembled units, but they were not mated together. I inspected everything and lightly oiled the surfaces that move and contact each other. I purposely did not do a complete teardown, as I wanted to see if this clone will be “Glock reliable”.
The slide
The slide has “Glock” sights, meaning they will interchange with OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) sights and can be upgraded if needed. The slide also came with a threaded barrel to accept a muzzle compensator or suppressor if that is what you want. The slide is ported on the top over the barrel so an aftermarket ported barrel can be dropped in if desired.
The slide also has an RMR (Ruggedized Miniature Reflex) cut. That means it is designed to have a small red dot optical reflex sight attached directly to the slide with no modifications.
The extractor has a slight bump on it. So when a round is chambered, it protrudes slightly from the side of the slide giving a tactile loaded-chamber indicator.
The frame
The frame has many features including an undercut below the trigger guard to allow you to get a higher grip on the gun. It has bumps for you to hook a finger on for better control. The texture is aggressive, giving you a firm grip on the gun. There are reference areas where you can feel where your trigger finger should be when not actually on the trigger.
The frame also has a standard Picatinny rail on the bottom front to mount accessories such as lasers, or lights. This is a feature Glock still hasn’t incorporated into their design. They do have an accessory rail, but it only has one position to lock the accessory in place.
Here is the SCT clone frame (top) compared to the OEM Glock frame, Notice the lack of features on the Glock frame. There is a lot of value for the money here.
At the range
We took the pistols to the range. The sights needed no adjustment even out to 20 yards.
I had 2 failures to eject during the first 100 rounds — both in the same magazine. I attribute that to me shooting it one-handed like an olympic shooter. I was “limp-wristing” the gun — meaning holding it loosely and allowing my hand to absorb some of the recoil needed to cycle the action. I let the gun go where it wanted to during the firing cycle. When holding it like you SHOULD hold a semiauto pistol, I had no other failures.
I did find a couple of things I consider shortcomings, but they are minor and definitely not deal breakers. Just like the Glock, the front sight on the clone slide has a white dot on it. But the rear sight is completely black. Factory Glock rear sights have a white U outlining the notch to help with proper fast sight alignment.
This is what a factory Glock rear sight looks like.
The texturing of the grip may be a double-edged sword for some people. While it gives you an excellent hold of the gun, it may have too aggressive a texture for some people.
What will I change?
I reached out to my friends at UTG/Leapers, asking what they have that fits a Glock. They are great people, and I like their products. They sent me some Glock compatible magazines, a case for the pistol, and a UTG OP3 Micro SLS red dot. There will be a future report on this sight.
The Micro red dot was the first thing I mounted. The other shortcoming of the texturing I can live with.
A teaser, the first modification was to mount the UTG OP3 Micro SLS Micro dot.
Stay tuned for part two.
Shoot safe; have FUN!
Ian
Ian,
Those two malfunctions could also be attributed to the initial break in of a new gun. Or do Glocks shoot without failure right of the box?
Siraniko
It’s a mechanical device, with moving parts, anything can have a failure.
In my opinion a firearm intended for self defense needs to be utterly reliable, out of the box.
But a lot of guns do need a break in period.
Since the slide and its components were made by one company, and the frame and its components were made by another.
And the magazines made by a third company, I expected a few stoppages within the first few magazines.
Since I had none in the first 3 magazines (they hold 15 rounds each) I decided to see if I could make it fail.
Some semi auto designs do not respond well to a limp wrist.
Those two malfunctions happened about the 50 round mark in the 4th magazine..
I was deliberately trying to get it to fail by limp wristing the pistol.
I now have a total of 500 rounds through it with no other malfunctions.
Ian
Ian,
If that Glock clone works out to be as reliable as a Glock, then you got a heck of a good deal! 🙂
Looking forward to part two,
dave
IAN: when I purchased my Glock 19 from my favorite gun retailer in San Antonio, it came with two magazines. I purchased two additional 10 round mags at that time (it had to be California legal as I spend half my year there). All four came in blister pacs prominently displaying the Glock logo. After getting back home and stripping it down, cleaning it and placing a dab of oil in all the right places, I reassembled it and took it to the range along with my son and grandson. Now I’m telling you all this for what comes next. I opened one of the blister pacs and began loading my new pistol. Beginning with the sixth bullet, the spring became so tight that I didn’t have the strength to continue loading. Grandpa’s embarrassed! My 45 year old Army Major son came to my rescue . . . he managed two more rounds, with difficulty. What’s going on here? Are both of us two weak to load a Glock? Maybe its just the new spring. We took to firing at the 10 yard target for sighting in purposes. From the first shot I couldn’t get it on the target. Now Grandpa’s not only weak, but he can’t shoot either; then the gun jammed. My son took the gun and unjammed it. Geeesh! He fired the last shots. He couldn’t hit paper with the first and just barely made it with his last shot. In the meantime, I loaded the next magazine . . . without difficulty! I now hit the target with all ten rounds. What’s going on? It’s now that my son realized that the magazine blister pacs were just a bit different. While one was clearly Glock, the other was “made for” Glock. . . and there-in lies the problem. The two magazines directly from Glock worked fine. The two “made for” mags were next to impossible to load and then jammed EVERY time. A jamming pistol is an unsafe pistol. My grandson could have been injured, to say nothing of myself or son. This ended our range day and everything went back to the gun shop. Yes, they made good on the deal with the magazines, they took them back and gave us two “real” magazines, but without apology. My grandson was unusually quiet in the car going on.The whole experience soured me on my new Glock and I’ve not shot it since. It’s been back to my ever faithful Springfield Arms Garrison 1911. Some things just work. If you bothered with my rant, my apologies for it. But the lesson is one of value: be careful with some non-OEM parts. Orv.
Doc, I am not bothered by it a bit.
I want to hear about others experiences and we can share and learn from them.
It is true, made for and OEM can be entirely 2 different specs.
Factory Glock magazines have an internal steel lining that keeps the plastic from deforming under the spring pressure of the follower, and other advantages too.
I once bought some Asian military contract magazines online and they were steel lined also, but were made to a different spec and they were difficult to Insert , difficult to remove and they did not drop free.
in further research They were designed not to be drop free magazines.
Meaning you push the magazine release and the magazine will fall out the grip well.
I can say the UTG mags do drop free and after the first time loading they also load relatively easy.
Although in a future blog I have found a tool to load the mags in just a few seconds.
I had to resort to this because I have a pinched nerve in my neck and have reduced strength and dexterity in my left hand at the moment.
The docs and I are working on it.
That loader makes a huge difference while at the range.
Ian.
45Bravo,
Ian you and others may be interested in this:
Beyond rifle magazines, Magpul also offers multiple handgun magazines. Most of these magazines are intended for use with Glock pistols, clones, and pistol caliber carbines that utilize Glock magazines. These magazines are available in a wide range of capacities and feature lightweight construction. In a departure from standard practices, Magpul has recently started offering metal magazines for the Sig P320 platform. These magazines are currently available in many capacities and support 9mm ammo.
shootski
At the time I ordered the pistol I did order 3 of the Magpul G19 magazines.
They were only $9.99 each.
A few days later I was cruising a pawn shop on the way home from work and found one of the same mags for sale for $5 out the door, so I picked it up as well.
I have always liked Magpul products there is exceptional quality for the price.
Interesting they are expanding into metal mags now.
Thanak you for the info.
Ian
Ian,
Thanks for this report. I am looking forward to Part Two. I have enjoyed your explanations of what many are convinced is THE pistol to have. Will this convince me to have a Glock or “Glock” here? No. I have never been a fan of the 9mm and have never been a fan of steel reinforced plastic.
I am aware that 9mm bullets have come a long way over the years. If you update the .45 ACP in the same way, they become truly magnificent.
As I have stated before, to each his or her own.
Have been looking at the SIG P365 Nitron Micro-Compact 9mm for concealed carry…wonder if any in the readership has experience with it and would share his/her impressions? Good article, Ian. You scored a great find there and seems you’re getting/will get your bang-for-the-buck out of it.
FM, I have very limited experience with the P365 and its variants.
BB has written about his P365 in previous blogs, but I don’t think it is the exact model you are looking at, but I am sure they share the same “DNA”.
Maybe he or another reader can chime in with their experience.
Ian.
Basil,
I carry a P365. I really like it A LOT!!!!!
I didn’t comment because of the Nitron title. I don’t know that one. But if it a type of P365 I say get one.
BB
Appreciate your thoughts on that, Tom. Definitely leaning towards the P365.
FawltyManuel,
I don’t own that model SIG but just this morning at the MCX (Marine Corps Exchange) helped a spouse with proper hold for racking the slide on one that her husband was recommending for her. I then convinced her to try a compact P365 and a full size P320. She found the full size P320 much easier to manipulate. She bought the Full size P320 and it fit right into her purse. Her husband was very quiet.
compare and manipulate as much as they will let you and then buy what really works for you! If you can find a range that rents what you think you want that is the best way to decide, after some live fire, on a new to you gun/model in my book.
shootski
Thanks for the input, shootski – had not considered the P320 but will see about checking one out – choices are good!
I second the rental comment.
It’s money well spent to see if the recoil, the ability to manipulate, and the overall FEEL of a pistol while shooting is something she or you can tolerate.
If you don’t like it you can always move to the next one on the short list.
Ian.
FawltyManuel,
I have ben thinking more on your choices and how to get a better chance to choose wisely how you spend your money. The major calibers: 9 mm, .40, and .45 have been studied a great deal on their effectiveness in actual defensive uses. The statistical results show that on a whole they are in a dead (pun intended) heat for outcome. That should make it easy to select you gun it would seem…BUT you and every other shooter are not agragate statistics! There is only one or two things that changes how effective at stopping the threat you will be.
The first is: Initial shot placement.
And the second is: Total number of shots accurately placed on target.
So i’m glad Ian seconded my recommendation to go to the range with borrowed or rented guns to try them. To expand on that though is what i’ll try to do in this reply. My wife had a Browning BDA 380 (FN 140DA) that she carried for years it had a double stack 13 round magazine so a total capacity of 13+1. She could unload that pistol into a target in under 8 seconds. Sadly it eventually became to expensive to maintain and she selected a SIG P238
because she could get rounds on target even more accurately with is Single Action (SA) night sight equiped pistol. If she was to replace it she says she would go with the SIG P365 chambered in .380 ACP.
I have shot her .380s and if i get to the point (age and strength issues) i can’t control the recoil to get rounds on target FAST i will probably change to carrying a .380 ACP pistol. The “mouse gun” caliber is very near as effective, functionally, in defensive shooting as are the major calibers and out to distances that surprise many shooters.
These are the reason you need range time before you choose a defensive carry gun in my book.
shootski
FM,
Beware the Sig! I do not rememeber the pistol by its civilian nomenclature, but it is the civilian version of the new M17. There are a few lawsuits against Sig Sauer at this moment concerning the pistol discharging on its own. What is really going on, I do not know. My source of information is nothing more than little news blurbs.
As the news media is against all civilians being in possession of any firearms, I am quite certain the news blurbs do not explain enough or correctly for that matter, of what is happening.
Just my two cents worth being thrown in the pot.
Ridge Runner as well as FM and any others interested in this “issue” about the SIG P320,
I own a SIG P320 X FIVE and have for a number of years as well as a “few” rounds through the barrel. The Trace and the Washington Post, both highly regarded ANTI GUN sources, have done some repeated writings about the 100 or so alleged cases of the P320 shooting/injuring the shooter without a trigger pull; that 100 is out of the 2.5 million that have been sold. There is a great deal of circular reporting about these 100 or so cases since they started shortly after the P320 pistol’s introduction in 2014.
I have my own beliefs on most inadvertent discharges during administrative handling of weapons and they are similar to the ones i hold about Safety Razors cutting folks shaving with them. Styptic Pencils stop the bleeding for shaving “accidents” and the embarrassment isn’t nearly as bad as shooting yourself in your leg/foot during a re-holster which requires something like BleedStop™ or the new product TRAUMAGEL® https://cresilon.com/traumagel/
That stuff stops the bleeding but the lawsuit is for saving face.
shootski
They also wish to retire early.
RidgeRunner,
Sad but true.
My daughter is stuck doing double shifts and mandatory Holdovers; she doesn’t mind the extra pay but it sure messes with life outside of being on duty.
shootski
shootski, FM appreciates all concerns from all who express them, such as RR, yourself, Tom, Ian and so on. FM is somewhat obsessive-compulsive about doing due diligence and research so rest assured he will do so. As for the ANM – Alleged News Media – FM also has a tendency to pay little or no attention to the mostly uninformed and biased opinions of the media “wonkies” (FM’s term, feel free to appropriate) who regurgitate them ad nauseam. When facts and rational opinions are needed, FM goes to the people who know what they are talking about because they have learned through actual experience and have the education and the brains to engage in reality-based rational thinking.
Rest assured FM would not go to Alec Baldwin for training on gun safety or to “sources” such as the WAPO and say, the New York Times for factual information about firearms. In fact, believe these publications should rename themselves “Pravda” and “Izvestia” because, as went the old Cold War Era joke, there is neither truth nor news to be found in either. End of rant!
Hope you all get some shooting in this weekend. Going to see if can try out the bipod RR kindly donated to FM no doubt hoping his hapless friend’s shooting will improve. Keeping crosshairs crossed for that, RR!
Hey Ian. Very interesting post on a “bargain” Glock. Particularly how the magazines not only would jam but somehow contributed to total inaccuracy. My brother had gone this route but his “Glock” would jam every second or third round. I told him to change ammo and mags but he’s a bit on the stubborn side and tried to work with the garbage he bought. Now I’m looking forward to Part II. In particular, the reloading tool you use.
Fred formerly of the Demokratik Peeples Republik of NJ now happily in GA thinking about a bargain Glock
Fred, the most common causes of malfunctions in semi automatic handguns are the magazines and ammo.
The ammo could be too light to reliably cycle the action.
The magazines are subjected to being left loaded for extended periods of time under heavy spring tension.
And when empty are often allowed to drop out of the gun and come to rest on the ground.
In the dirt, or on the concrete.
We are expecting a lot from a $14 plastic item used to hold ammunition and load it properly under very violent conditions.( the slide racking back and forth where being fired.)
Ian.
I know that. My brother didn’t believe me. I gave up.
Fred etc.
B.B. and Readership,
Interesting read applicable to any and all shooting irons:
https://www.guncrafttraining.com/articles/negligent-discharge-vs-accidental-discharge
Don’t miss out reading the comments :^0
smh (shaking my head) at first on some of them but on reconsideration at least they learned something and hopefully will apply it to their lives and when they are in the nextdoor shooting lane when i (and all of you) go to the range or other shooting venue.
shootski
New Umarex Mark Point Air Pistol
What the …? Is this a WOKE airgun?
Kind of disappointed in the Crosman Full Auto M1 Carbine as well. Way too many screw holes in a plastic wood lookalike stock and the rate of fire, 1400 RPM, is much too fast!
Save that for an assault type weapon design. Of which there are many already out there.
Familiar BB feeding system with reservoir and spring fed tube was thoughtful, considering how fast you will empty it on full auto.
Don’t think there are too many kids looking for an M1 carbine replica in this age of assault weapons. However, I as an old serviceman I would appreciate a nice wood stock select fire version M2 with a much lower rate of fire. And throw in a short BB storage magazine just to complete the look. More like a genuine replica.
I already have a full auto converted one in wood but a select fire option would be nice. Hard to avoid a double tap on full auto.
I have 3 versions, but this new one just doesn’t trip my trigger.
Think I will just kick back with a Martini Cocktail, “Shaken, not stirred” and plink away with a new P-Five Pistol next year. Tux optional.
Tom and all,
Just purchased a used Ruger Blackhawk air rifle. I think it’s barely been used because the factory oil in the piston chamber hasn’t been burned off from use or the previous owner thought applying thin oil is a good idea. Either way I’m now facing the choice to shoot it as is after applying some TIAT and tolerate the dieseling or strip it down, remove the oil and properly lube with moly and maybe apply some TIAT on the spring. Don’t really know if this is a reasonable copy of the Diana 34 or not, but it has scratched an itch I’ve had. Although Chinese made the quality is nice. The synthetic stock is solid sounding despite being hollow. Might end up getting the chronograph out of mothballs and making a proper documentation. Can’t do proper measurement of how heavy the trigger is though.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Is it dieseling (smoke coming out the barrel with each shot) or detonating (a loud bang with each shot)? Dieseling is normal for spring-piston airguns. Detonation is the bad one.Sometimes shooting very heavy pellets will help with that. Nothing I know of will stop a springer from dieseling.
BB
Siraniko,
What BB said. Use a heavier pellet for a bit to see if it has too much oil and help to tame that dieseling. After it has been broken in for a bit, it may become a decent air rifle.
A very long time ago I picked up a Ruger at a yard sale. I was never impressed with the trigger. Sometimes it felt horrible and sometimes it was fantastic. This was before I had a clue what to do with them.
Despite the hype, that Ruger is not and will never be a Diana 34, but it can be a pretty decent sproinger if you shoot it, work with it and give it a chance.
I do not have a clue, but the screw on your trigger may be pointed. If so, you may want to round it off just a little bit so it is more likely to slide than dig in. I would recommend you try it some first. You may be happy with it and the Lord knows I am not an expert.
Ian,
Thanks for the informative article about this clone. Sometimes copies are as good as the original, sometimes they are not.
I bought a G19 G2 when new (i.e. many years ago) and I still do not know why. Probably curiosity. .The truth is that I never liked it too much, with its blocky shape and materials. That said, it has been the most reliable handgun I have ever used. Accurate and it eats everything I feed it, from weak practice handloads to full power defensive ammo, without complaints. It never jammed. I have the original magazines (plastic only – they do not drop free) and the newer OEM metal lined ones. Never a problem. I still do not like it, but it is my favorite handgun.
I am looking forward to part II and especially interested in your comment about the loader. My arthritic thumbs could use some help!
Henry
BB,
When you said the parts were serialized did you mean that they have serial numbers?With the recent assassination of the insurance executive with a “Ghost Gun” I had to look up what Ghost Guns were. It sounds like most are guns like you are describing except without serial numbers.
David Enoch