Lucky McDaniel had Daisy make special model 99 BB guns for his Instinct shooting program.
This report covers:
- Quick Kill
- Finish
- Still going strong
- Not just BB guns
- Summary
Yesterday I had my Daisy model 25 pump BB gun in hand, all set to write Part 2 of that report when reader RidgeRunner derailed the train. He said:
“The Daisy 25 and/or the Daisy 499 may be able to outshoot the Diana model 30, but how many shots will they stand? This air rifle has been shot almost 100,000 times and looks to be new. I will take the Diana over the Daisys any day.”
Quick Kill
Well, RidgeRunner, let’s see. The total shot counter on my new/old Diana 30 says about a hundred thousand shots have gone through. I was told by Daisy that the U.S. Army would return their Daisy Quick Kill guns after between 10 and 20 MILLION shots had been fired. That’s 800 shots per soldier, times 100 soldiers a week, times 50 weeks a year, times five years before the guns needed to be “freshened.”
Quick Kill in the US Army in the 1960s.
They needed new seals and mainsprings so they could soldier on. There is really no comparison. BB guns will outlast even the finest gallery rifles many times over. And that should come as no surprise. The Diana model 30 has a complex mechanism. The Daisy BB gun is dirt-simple by comparison.
Finish
And the finish? Let’s see. My Daisy model 25 was probably made around 1925, so it’s closing in on a century. The Diana model 30 I’m testing may have been made in the 1970s, so it’s half a century old. The Daisy still looks bright and beautiful, just like the Diana. No comparison there.
My century old Daisy 25 BB gun.
Still going strong
Since BB guns don’t have shot counters there’s really no way to make a comparison. But there are BB guns from 1895 that are still shooting strong today. Many probably have at least as many shots as the Diana 30 I’m reporting on, but there’s no way of knowing. Their finishes may have suffered more than the gallery gun, but that’s because they were owned and abused by kids (dropped, left outside for weeks, used to shoot kitchen matches and dirt clods, etc.), while the shooting gallery operator took care of his thousand-dollar rifles.
Not just BB guns
You — RidgeRunner — own a very early BSA underlever pellet rifle that I advised you to buy at the Virginia airgun show several decades ago. I told you then that there was almost nothing that would stop that rifle from shooting. The seller even told you it had a heavily scratched compression chamber, and I told you I would buy the rifle from you if you decided not to fix it. I know you remember that conversation.
The Diana 30 gallery rifle I borrowed six years ago is still broken. I’m sure it can be fixed, but compared to your BSA that fix is more like brain surgery. Your BSA was slightly harder to fix than replacing the batteries in a flashlight. I also told you that before you bought it.
Yes, pellet guns are just as robust as BB guns, if some are more complex to repair. There are FWB 300 club guns coming out of Europe with MILLIONS of shots on them and they are still going strong after an overhaul.
Summary
So — how many shots? More than you will shoot in a lifetime.
BB,
I was always impressed with the amount of abuse that the average kid could heap on the average BB gun and have it continue to work. I went to the Army near the end of “Quick Kill” training but I always wondered how those sightless BB guns held up. Now I know.
Thank you, sir, for teaching me something new today! (one more lesson, I look forward to the next)
Bill
Daisy ought to bring back the “Lucky McDaniel Training Kit”. I’d buy two!
OP,
Daisy did market a similar kit they called Quick Skill. Airgunners avoided it in droves.
BB
BB,
Yes, I do remember that conversation and yes, I did get that 1906 BSA up and running. It hangs in the place of honor over my fireplace with its favorite pellets. They may be able to stand up to shooting forever, but I would still rather have a Diana Model 30 gallery gun than any more bb guns.
P.S. I would give that brain surgery a try. 😉
When I returned from a two-year tour of duty in England in the 60’s, I found my new stepbrothers, Bevis and Butthead, found my pristine scoped Daisy 1894 lever action BB rifle and absolutely destroyed the inside linkage and scratched it all over and then returned it to the place they found it.
Best I can figure, they tried to cycle it like the Rifleman did on TV by swinging the rifle instead of the lever.
When it stopped working, they probably took it to those monkeys on TV who fix automatic transmissions with baseball bats. They were in the service when I got home, and I never saw them again.
Two parts rifles later and it’s good as new again. I have never seen another Daisy 1894 with the factory riv-nut side mounted scope and mount. I’d like to say I put hundreds of BB’s through it, but they were the same hundred I used over and over.
BB
Wow, found it amazing that the Model 25 is that robust. Hope you have time for a Model 30 vs Model 25 shoot off.
Do have a quick question regarding the Lucky Mc Daniels Training Kit. I see an item marked Conversion Barrel for Big Shot Ammo. Did this barrel turn the Model 99 into a cork gun.
Kind Regards
jda-001
jda-001,
Yes, your comments about a 25/30 shootoff are what prompted me to pick up the gun and, until RidgeRunner’s BB gun shot-count question, I was headed in that direction. That’s why I asked for the distances at which the Diana 30 is shot in galleries.
And yes, that extra barrel did turn the Lucky McDaniel BB gun in to a cork ball shooter.
BB
Good memories of my long gone Daisy No. 25 from the 1940’s caused me to order another several months ago. It is a high quality aesthetics version but is not nearly as accurate as my Daisy 499B at either 5 or 10 meters. I do enjoy both shooting this smooth cycling pump and for its eye candy appeal.
Deck
Given what has been discussed about airgun longevity here, FM is confident his guns will be healthy and not rusty by the time FM has become crusty and dusty.
” I was told by Daisy that the U.S. Army would return their Daisy Quick Kill guns after between 10 and 20 MILLION shots had been fired.”
BB,
That’s impressive! I never would have guessed that.
Thank you for a most interesting report! 🙂
Blessings to you,
dave
B.B.
Well I guess that shows that every airgun should have a shot counter!
-Yogi
Yogi,
Not at all. It’s firearms that need shot counters. Centerfire barrels are worn out after 1,000 to 5,000 rounds have been fired. The number depends of the velocity of the cartridge.
In an M60 tank the main gun’s barrel could last for 480 full-charge rounds, if memory serves. Most ammo was less than a full-charge round and each tank’s logbook had a form on which the tank commander recorded how many equivalent full charge rounds had been fired. In peacetime the tank wouldn’t shoot out a barrel in 20 years. In war it could happen in a month.
In contrast a pellet rifle barrel can last for millions of shots, and the same for the barrel on a BB gun.
BB
Yes, you are right!
It is the magazines that need a counter.
-Y
BB,
I’m pleased we’re talking a bit about Daisy No. 25s. At a recent flea market, I bought two 25s and was lucky, because there weren’t many air guns on offer and I read that the 25 is a classic BB gun and I’d probably like it. Repairing is a good part of the fun.
One is nicer and doesn’t look its age, while the other is rusty, but not awful. I fixed up the pretty one and just yesterday, after buffing it to a shine with wax, declared it good to go and am enjoying shooting it. Both Plymouth models are at least sixty-five years old and neither needed new parts to shoot a BB fast enough for me. LONGEVITY is right, there is good reason to think these Daisy No. 25s will keep shooting long after I’m done.
I did not think that I would like BB guns after shooting accurate pellet rifles, but they have their own charm and challenge that I’m beginning to understand! It is not noisy, ammo is cheap and it’s addictive. It’s too fussy to use the peep sight outdoors, it’s better to keep the head up, both eyes open and shoot where you think the gun will put it. Since we can see the BB fly, we can adjust as needed to hit the target often enough to keep it interesting. It’s easy to go through a lot of BBs in one session!
Have fun,
Will
Just lost another blog entry. My fault, the left side of the touch pad on my laptop is sticking down sometimes and causing all kinds of problems.
I have a couple of youth plinkers including a Model 25, a Winchester Model 12, Camo big loop lever action 1999 and a few others. They fill the need when a $2,000 PCP is just overkill and a 9 lb. Magnum is ridiculous.
Great for pushing empty pop and beer cans away when kicking back in the yard or for entertaining people who never shot anything or are afraid of real guns. And you don’t need to worry about getting them dinged or scratched up. Some shoot for quite a while without reloading.
Two of my favorite plinker pistols now are the Barra CO2 Cowboy BB and the Crosman Fortify Revolvers. Really fun shooters that sound nice and I can fan… with some care.
Bob M
One of my favorite plinkers is the Winchester Model 12. Daisy just updated the Model 12 with wooden shoulder stock and pump handle. The receiver and outer barrel is still high impact plastic. This one needs to be upgraded to all metal and wood.
jda001
I agree. Mine has the wood but something along the quality of the model 25 would be very nice. But then it would cost more and be in competition with a lot of others in the same price range and below.
Actually, the ultra high shot count has not so much to do with build quality, but with keeping the power and performance of the system so low that very little stress is experienced by the parts.
Plus, no “planned obsolescence” stuff like metal pins chewing through plastic parts etc.
I am curious about the book “Instinct Shooting” included with the Lucky McDaniel trainer outfit. Does anyone remember or know much about the principles involved in the book? Thanks.
Elmer Fudd,
Back in 2006 B.B. did a 2 part series on the Lucky McDaniel Instinct Shooting. Here’s a link to part 2 and you can click on part 1 to read it in sequence:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/10/instinct-shooting-with-a-bb-gun-part-2/
Thanks Kevin, I have been focused on using the best sights and lighting conditions for the type of shooting that I usually do in my basement 10-meter range. This is something totally different and fascinating. The time period of the 50s would coincide with when Lee Harvey Oswald was very interested in learning about guns. I wonder if he might have read about this or even had some training in instinctive shooting.
Elmer
Looks like a copy of the Daisy quick skill booklet is online. I did not provide a link due to content.
Kind Regards
jda001
Thanks jda001
photo
When you consider that the new price for most spring piston BB guns is $40-$50 I’d say their longevity is somewhat trivial. If you don’t abuse them they can generally be counted on to shoots tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of shots without needing repair, at which point you’ll have spent far more on BB’s than you did on the “rifle” itself.
I’m actually surprised that the army bothered refurbishing them, but things were built more solidly back then and when you adjust for inflation they cost more too.
B.B. and Readership,
As Col. Cooper originally said, if you’re aiming with your sights, you’re doing it wrong. If you’re aiming with a dot, you’re doing it wrong. The correct process is to aim with our presentation and visually verify with the relationship between the gun and the target or the sighting system and the target.
That advice is mostly for Practical/Defensive handgun shooting in most folks minds but they couldn’t be farther from the TRUTH. Change the presentation to stance and long guns and target shooting in general join in.
There is much that has been learned about how we humans function neurologically since the days of McDaniel but QUALITY practice, practice, practice is what we need to do to maintain or improve our skills.
Shooting is a perishable skill that requires quality practice. Practice does not just mean launching projectiles at a target! It means working on basic skills with a progression method to ingrain (or retain) the basics correctly.
All that Lucky and Chief AJ, both now long gone, knew was that proper training is the key to shooting well; however you do it.
shootski
Shootski,
Or … Or you can switch to full-auto shoot from the hip, walk the projectile impact point to the target and pulverize it. Just an option that can save time practicing. 😉
Bob M,
Sounds about right. I believe that has been the U.S. Army training method for the average infantryman. It certainly seemed that was sadly the case in the Vietnam Police Action by my observation.
shootski
Shootski,
And I’m sure it led to the invention of the short burst trigger Lots of wasted ammo for sure.
It would all be determined by the situation at hand.
A charging herd of rabid ground squirrels might require some suppressing fire.
Bob M,
“A charging herd of rabid ground squirrels might require some suppressing fire.”
NAH!
M18a1 claymore mine
shootski