My new/old Beeman R7. This one is from after Marksman bought Beeman because it has the shortened forearm.
This report covers:
- The R7
- History
- My good fortune
- The test
- Summary
Today we start looking at the Beeman R7. This one will be read by many!
The R7
Is the Beeman R7 a Weihrauch HW 30S with a different stock? Yes, it is. And there is even more to it.
History
The Beeman R1 first came out in 1981. It was the first of the R-series air rifles. Beeman and Weihrauch agreed that Weihrauch could also build that rifle and call it their HW 80. That was a business negotiation that helped Beeman with the price of each rifle and Weihrauch with the cost of development. Weihrauch had originally planned to make a larger more powerful HW 77 that had the power of the R1, but the prototype rifle they were working on weighed more than 11 pounds and still didn’t quite have the power they wanted.
So, the R1 and HW 80 hit the streets in ’81 and, because the wood stock of the R1 was a little longer and caused sourcing issues for the longer stock blanks, the HW 80 came to market first. All of this was told to me by Dr. Beeman years ago.
I also met the engineer who modeled the R1’s powerplant, making it the first spring-piston airgun to be designed on a computer. That engineer and I met at the Little Rock airgun show sometime in the 1990s, which is when I learned about that.
The HW 30 and HW 50 came out much earlier. The 30 dates back to at least 1955 and the 50 eaven earlier, to 1950. That one (1950) was before the Rekord trigger became available. That early 50 was the older rifle with a 25mm piston — not the one with the 26mm piston we have today.
The year after the R1 came out the Beeman R7 and R8 hit the market. They were Beeman versions of the HW 30S and 50S, respectively.
From the Fall 1982 Beeman catalog.
Detail of the R7 catalog page.
It’s obvious now and even back then that Dr. Beeman wanted to make his versions of the Weihrauch rifles stand apart. This was done by making the forearms of many of the Beeman models longer than those of the Weihrauch rifles. Originally the R7 stock was longer, as can be seen in the catalog picture (the base block that the barrel fits in is covered completely) but it was shortened many years ago, I believe when Marksman bought the Beeman company. And since then Weihrauch has lengthened the forearm on the HW 30/30S. More recently they revised the stock into what we see on both the 30 and 50 today.
The older HW 30S stock shown below gave rise to the current stock above.
The Beeman R7 stock did not keep pace with the Weihrauch upgrade. Now, since Air Venturi manages the Beeman R-series airguns, we can thank them for that. Therefore, a current R7 stock is styled in the older style and shouldn’t cause any problems with using the open sights.
The current Beeman R7 stock is in the old, pre-Marksman style of the stock that was abandoned. If there was any reason to get an R7 instead of an HW 30 or 30S — this is it!
My good fortune
You know what I see when it comes to the R7? I see that the people who have one prize it and people who let one get away regret doing so. That’s why I’m writing this report. I am responding to what reader thedavemeister said, “I originally had an R7, but sold it…HUGE mistake!”
The rifle I have became available recently and I acquired it. I already have an HW 30S, so I didn’t need another identical air rifle, but I will now tell you why this one is different.
I took this air rifle from the box and shot several pellets with it already. Cocking is very light and smooth. The firing cycle is smooth. And the trigger is adjusted the way I like it. This is an air rifle I don’t need to tune, or to buy a different stock for. This one is ready to go right out of the box.
The test
Do I need to test this new/old R7 of mine when I’ve already tested the HW 30S 14 times? I believe I do. Let me tell you why.
This rifle has been tuned by somebody. I can see that both by the feel of the shot cycle and also by looking through the cocking slot. Whoever did the job knew what they were doing.
So whatever it turns out to be, this is the way I will leave it and this is what I will test for you.
Summary
We are now looking at one of the most iconic air rifles to ever come along. What a joy it will be to test it for you!
Tom,
Good to see a classic Friday blog of an old classic which is appreciated by many but is unavailable to the greater population. What a difference 1mm makes. It turned the tame HW50 into something that needs to be tamed. Look at how your Air Arms TX200 Mk 3 had to be sleeved down to 22mm. Maybe some engineers need to go back to the drawing board. Smaller tubes need less material leading to lower costs.
Siraniko
I’ve noticed the velocity specification is higher for the R7 than the HW30S. Did Beeman have the guns tuned for higher velocity, or did they use a lighter pellet than Weinrauch?
Velocity specifications are nonsense.
Sort of like the end of your cars speedometer…
-Y
Yogi,
Dittos! Could not have said it better.
shootski
OhioPlinker,
I don’t think the R7 was built to shoot any faster than the HW 30S, but I really don’t know.
BB
I think their velocities are the same.
Hi Fish, like you and Tom, they shouldn’t be different, but I see HW30S as 630 fps and the R7 as 700fps. Close enough that maybe it’s pellets, but maybe Beeman had them tuned.
Probably just marketing, as Yogi and shootski implied.
On Weihrauch website, the specs reads as 190 meters per second, which has to be 623.36 feet per second if I am not mistaken. PA listed the HW30S as 675fps back in time:
/product/weihrauch-hw30s-air-rifle?m=2018
623.36, 630, up to 620 (per a competitor vendor), 675, and 700. I think all imply the same.
Seems reasonable, thanks!
B.B.
Let me see if I have this straight?
Marksman owns Beeman.
AirVenturi manages the Beeman R series of rifles.
Weihrauch manufactures the rifles.
Sounds like something for a B School case study!!
-Y
Yogi,
Marksman sold Beeman to the Chinese years ago.
BB
My grandmother had a saying that went something like this, “Too many cooks spoil the soup”.
Hope this does not happen to the Beeman springers.
-Y
BB,
This will be a great set of reports…yet this first one almost makes me want to cry for the loss of my old R7.
Mine looked like yours, except with the lengthened forearm. However, my forearm was not checkered.
Re-reading your report, my rifle looked exactly like the one in the pic labelled: “Detail of the R7 catalog page.”
If only I could go back in time, and stop myself from selling her! LOL! 😉
Blessings to you,
dave
So buy another!?
-Y
Yogi, I could, but it wouldn’t be the same; that old original R7 had a lot of memories tied up in it.
Still, I WAS going to buy one, but all BB’s talk about his .22 Diana 27 made me want a .22 R7.
However, they only come in .177 caliber; yet my wife was able to get me an HW 30S in .22 caliber.
I have grown to love it as much as I did the R7; but it would be nice to have that old gal back, too. 🙂
As great as the R7 can be it’s one more springer, WH related, in the long series of recent years tests. Oh well, back to my coffee.
Bill,
WH related? Sorry, that one went right over this old geezer’s head.
RR,
Woo-Hoo?
Michael
By WH, do you mean White House, as in Biden, as in Bidenomics? Who can afford a PCP after him?
Sorry, I could not help myself. 😀
RR,
I have no dog in this fight, but according to the Consumers Price Index, with the exception of July, the inflation rate has dropped each consecutive month for the previous 12 months. According to Forbes, “The most recent data on prices suggests that the spike in U.S. inflation seen over the last two years is finally going away.” (https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/current-inflation-rate/)
Specific products have continued to buck that trend, of course, such as housing, gasoline, and PCP air guns.
Michael
Michael,
I still cannot afford to do much in the way of grocery shopping, most especially when you talk about beef.
The RATE of inflation may have come down, but the cost of things have not.
RidgeRunner,
Sadly true, if the consumer is on a fixed income, such as most retirees and lower income Americans. However, for many Americans prices in effect have come down as the inflation rate has since mid-2022 dropped steadily while wages have increased steadily of late.
You are right about groceries, too. Like gas and housing (and PCPs) their prices have dropped more slowly using that dynamic. Except for eggs! They are now actually cheap around here. Their price has dropped like a stone.
Michael
Michael,
I guess I must be one of those “lower income Americans”. I went to the grocery store yesterday and New York Strip steaks were $15 a pound. I settled on a pound of hamburger that was over $6 a pound. Gas is over double what it was less than three years ago. My daughter cannot afford to build even a modest house, and we are not on the Left Coast.
In all of my years I have never, ever seen wages keep up with inflation. Stumbly Joe and Kamala are full of ****.
RidgeRunner,
Wow. Those prices are much higher than what I saw at the grocery store yesterday. Your prices are roughly 20% higher than in the Chicago suburbs. You are getting gouged. And we are supposed to have high gas prices because of Illinois regulations and taxes, but I paid $3.09 yesterday, much less than what it was here three years ago.
As I wrote, housing (renting, buying and building) are still high, so your daughter’s sitiation is no surprise.
You are correct that wage increases hardly ever outpace inflation. That is largely because the minimum wage has increasingly become the wage of most Americans, and the minimum wage has gone up at a glacial pace. (Unlike the billionare wage, which grows exponentially.)
But at the moment wages are indeed outpacing inflation. “U.S. wages were up 4.4% year-over-year in June.” (https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/current-inflation-rate/) “For the first time since March 2021, wage growth rapidly outpaced price growth. As a result, in June, real average hourly earnings increased 1.2% on a year-over-year basis, according to data the Bureau of Labor Statistics released Wednesday. In June 2022, real average hourly earnings had declined by 3.2%.
“For the 80% of U.S. workers in nonsupervisory roles — basically anyone who reports to a manager — the wage growth was even greater: a 2.2% increase year over year, compared to June 2022.” (https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/americans-are-finally-getting-raise-thanks-lower-inflation-rcna93844)
What people feel and what is actually happening, usually incrementally, are often two different things. Economists “divide between how consumers say they feel about the economy (bad) and how they’re acting (still spending) second-hand pessimism.” (https://www.uschamber.com/economy/the-economy-isnt-doing-as-poorly-as-you-think-due-to-second-hand-pessimism-heres-why)
People mentally collect anecdotal evidence, high steak prices at the supermarket, inability to afford a house purchase, neighbor going through foreclosure, local bakery going out of business, etc., and conclude the economy is bad, even though most economic indicators — actual hard data of national economics, are OK or even good. People can visuallize, heck, even SEE, their poor neighbor lose his home. We can’t see the wages of tens of millions of Americans rise 4%.
Steak has always been expensive to the typical American. (I haven’t had steak in probably four years.) Building a house is always expensive. (We built our dream house 20+ years ago, and it nearly broke us.) And when I was a little kid visiting my grandmother, she would moan about how high gas prices were, 40 cents a gallon. My dad said when he was a kid, she complained about the price of gas, 20 cents a gallon. Complaining about gas prices is the national pastime, no? :^)
We, all of us, feel more than we think. (That just might be a good thing.)
Chin up,
Michael
Agree. Saying that the current rate of inflation has decreased implies that inflation is ending, but that’s like saying if you are doing 75 miles an hour and accelerating, but less than you were, you are safe heading into the traffic ahead. I just got my homeowner’s insurance notice. It has doubled since 2019. The present rate of inflation is just terrible compared to recent history.
JERRYC,
You can blame “Climate Change” for your increase in insurance.
Good luck getting insurance on Maui now at ANY PRICE.
-Y
Florida insurance companies are no longer selling insurance for communities near the water.
Jerry,
Inflation has always been a constant. In 1961 my dad’s beginning salary was under $2000 as a teacher with a Masters degree. When he retired in the same district 30 years later that beginning salary for a teacher with a Masters was up to $30,000. (I know because by then I taught there for a time.) Their earning power was about the same.
Inflation and wages both go up at one rate or another all the time, for all times. (Except for CEO salaries, which skyrocket always.)
Michael
Constant?
https://data.bls.gov/generated_files/graphics/latest_numbers_CUUR0000SA0L1E_2013_2023_all_period_M07_pct_12mths.gif
A sharp large inrease related to “stimulus” spending
Yep, a constant, at least for practical purposes. [I deleted a bunch here — bad example.]
Sometimes technological advances in technology results in a product type dropping considerably in retail price at the same time quality and sophisticatiopn increases. Consider music listening equipment for the mainstream consumer. Costs and convenience features have become far more consumer friendly. But that is not because of economic currents so much as it is due to the advent of technology in technology-based products.
But that is the exception.
Jerry,
A better example than above:
Go back to my dad. When he was making just under $2000 a year, how much was a new Cadillac? When he was making $60,000? Today? How much does a Cadillac cost today compared to any past decade? Have new Cadillacs ever gotten cheaper?
Michael
Folks,
We’ve had inflation or economical crisis before. This is nothing. Inflation also means growth in the production. The job market is strong. The job creation rate has been more than the double of the expectations over and over again lately. Yes, the debt ceiling will be increased, but remember, the growth in the US economy has reached to such a powerful level lately that the debt amount won’t matter anymore – we can easily pay. The price increase of some products like houses, cars and some certain groceries has other reasons than economical failures. There has not been enough houses built since the pandemic. It’ll take time to keep up with the demand. The chip manufacturing delays caused the car price increase; again not that there is no money, demand, or what not. And the supply chain issues caused the double to triple groceries prices. They’ll take a few years to slowly come down. The issue here is not a bad economy, unemployement, or having no money; the problem is lack of supply to keep up with demand. in 2025 – 27, the supply will keep up with demand eventually and the prices will finally reach to a balance – a normal level, not cheap. Individually, now is to work hard and save as much as possible for that sweet future ahead of us. The US is still the best place to live.
Also, when I say prices to come down, I don’t mean the prices will go down literally. The wages will go up, and the outcome will have the same effect. Remember, inflation is the disease of price increase. The minute the increase stalls, the inflation is cured. The wages have to be increased to keep up with where the prices are leveled. If you see the prices go down, then you have a bigger problem in your hand which is deflation, and that’s a worse disease than inflation. So, as long as you don’t lose your job, and your wage increases at the same rate as the infation, then you are alright. You see inflation adds zeros to the prices, and when you cure it, you simply get rid of those zeros – you don’t want deflation. We won’t even need the elimination of zeros from our currency at all, because the inflation we’ve experienced is nothing compared to what bad economies out there have suffered.
Japan has a lot of zeros in its currency, but still it has one of the strongest economies in the world. They might add more zeros in time, no problem as long as those zeros are added to the wages as well. At some point, if they wish, and find it useful, they might just delete those zeros. Again the illness here is the trend of price increase. When the increase stops, the illness is cured. Don’t look at the price increase and judge the economy with that. Just look at how much you can buy with your wage compared to the past. If your wage doesn’t increase at the same rate with inflation, then you have a problem. You’ve got to ask for a raise at or above the inflation.
You tell’m Fish,
Unfortunately they have been told so many lies, they find the truth hard to believe.
FWIW-Korean Exchange rate is about 1,000 yuan=$1.00. In 1949, the GDP of Korea was the same as Kenya’s.
-Y
Fish,
I can buy less these days, even after a massive wage increase. Wages never, ever keep up with inflation.
RR, that’s the problem with inflation; the wage increase will never keep up with the inflation rate. Companies will often become greedy.
PS: I don’t care about politics. I just look at the facts and numbers from reliable sources.
I try, but what is a reliable source?
There aren’t any.
RR, there aren’t any. You’ll have to use your own ‘objective and reliable source’ filter. For example, the Fed interest rate is an objective data, so is the House Price Index. You’ll just have to do the math and interpret the results.
If you’re serious on the subject, I’d recommend you to contact a college in your area and sign up for continuing education. More than likely, a couple of courses per semester will come free of charge to you. Finish 202 level Macroeconomics and Microeconomics classes and their prerequisites.
Aced economics in college.
Slinging Lead is right, all of the talking heads are either liars or clueless.
…or both! :o)
RR, then why did you ask me what a reliable source was? You know the answer.
I, myself, didn’t ace the economics courses. Took me a while to pass them. Don’t even remember all the details – or care to remember. I think the whole field is a scam. I met way too many ‘I know it alls’ whom I hope I haven’t turn into, intracting with them.
Just take the objective numbers and come to your own conclusions. Why would you even bother to listen to anyone else but yourself? Yes, there are many liars out there, but that’s their problem; the man on the street can smell a lie a million miles away.
RR,
Your experience right now is as you say it. I believe you. But that experience (and apparently the abnormally high prices where you live) is atypical for right now and in most of this country.
“Wages never, ever keep up with inflation.” I hate to say it my friend, but never is a very long time. You are factually incorrect.
Michael
Fish,
Superbly put. An excellent lesson.
Michael
Well Ridge Runner,
If you have not saved 10% of your salary, either in a 401-K, or other savings accounts over your productive career, SERVES YOU RIGHT!
Stock Market is going gang busters, now if those idiots would stop fiddling with the National Debt Limit….
Thank you Sleepy Joe, keep up the good work.
-Yogi
PS since you have to choose between pellets and food on the table. I would be happy to send you a few tins.
Yogi,
Everything at RRHFWA is paid for, including RRHFWA. We have just spent a good bit on landscaping. It is all paid for. We are in the process of a total kitchen remodel. It is all paid for. When we add on a carport and build a detached garage, it will be paid for.
I just refuse to pay $15 a pound for beef. It can rot for all I care. Eventually, it will indeed come down to where people will buy it.
If I have to, I will take up hunting again. I prefer wild game anyway.
$15 for a pound of beef.
Yes ranchers culled their herds last year do to lack of winter food for their animals.
Once again, climate change!!!
Well it seems that you send your money on lots of things, so quite complaining on being broke!
You just spend you money on other stuff.
-Y
PS At $15 a pound, it probably is CHOICE from Brazil. Prime steaks around here go for over $20 lbs.
Yogi,
That is a bit harsh to say, but essentially you have a good point.
My wife and I did a few things very right, financially, 35 years ago. We started 401ks, we bought a handful of blue chip stock shares at a low dip and have held onto them for 30 years (no kidding). We worked for 25 years, and . . . we decided not to have children. We were both in our 30s when we married, my wife never wanted children as she felt awkward around them, and I did not feel the world was going to be a great place to live in by the 21st Century. I didn’t wish to bring a life into this world.
So, we were DINKs (double-income-no-kids).
Michael
“If you have not saved 10% of your salary, either in a 401k, or other savings accounts over your productive career, SERVES YOU RIGHT!”
Are you kidding us? I am all for fiscal responsibility and looking to the future but that kind of stance is just cruel and inhumane. Break out of yourself for a minute and put yourself in someone else’s shoes.
People living month to month cannot afford to save 10% when they are struggling to feed their family.
SL, you’re spot on in regards to the troubles of the low income population. Primary homelessness is a growing problem in our country as well. In some ‘rich’ cities, folks with ‘careers’ have been forced to live in their cars. However, this is not a new problem.
RR
At least my mistake (WH instead of HW, for the Wheirauch line of airguns) made a joke out of it in the end.
Regarding Wheirauch airguns in general I do feel privileged to live in EU instead of US.
Bill,
We make more money for the same job, and when the tax is included in the final price, we pay less for the Weihrauchs. Hold your horses, buddy; the world is not multi-polar yet. 😉
Fish
Bill,
I wish I could afford more Weihrauchs. I have my eye on a couple of them right now.
RR
I’m with you all the way, not only on Wheirauchs (ahh that nickel plated HW 30) but on food price rises. Although I can spend more on something I like I cannot tolerate steeling from my pocket.
BIll,
Ah, the EU. Better and MUCH cheaper health care, no 20 year wars, few murders, low violent crime in general. Hey, low property crime in general. Shorter work weeks, longer vacations. Cheap childcare. Better schools, cleaner streets. Less coronary heart disease and obesity.
But we still have colder beverages than you! Hah, hah, hah, hah! ;^)
Michael
Michael
The EU is so obviously awesome that the UK chose to withdraw from them. Did they do that to spite their citizens, or perhaps the EU sucks?
The UK is in severe economic troubles these days. Despite that, I predict more exits from the EU. Anyhow, I am not telling the US economy currently shines and lives its victory days. However, compared to the current situation of the EU economy, the US economy is in a great shape; we have the advantage. USA is the best place to live and work nowadays.
Various polls in July revealed 52-55 percent of the people in the UK think Brexit was a bad idea, contrasted with 32-33 percent who think it was a good idea. But I do like the UK nevertheless.
Count me among the “ This one will be read by many!”
Deck
BB,
I know Bill and a few others would rather “hear” about PCPs, but I am afraid the majority of us would rather dive into the sproingers. Hey, I own several PCPs. They can be great. They also can be very expensive to buy and feed, most especially when so many of the newer ones have astronomical fill pressures so they can have impractical shot counts.
Speaking of prices, with the exception of the Chinese made PCPs, they have become quite expensive. I know quality will account for some of that cost, but I think most of it is more likely due to what the market will bear.
This is one of the reasons I buy these old airguns. They are not the latest and greatest, so people will sell them at outrageously low prices. To build my 1906 BSA these days would cost more than a grand. Many of these old ladies around here will shoot as nice as the brand spanking new ones.
Another thing to think about is there are not really that many old PCPs. When you do happen to find one, they have a price tag on them that would choke a horse. They usually do not work either. There are quite a few “young” PCPs that do not work. It is usually much easier to get a sproinger up and running than a PCP.
RigheRunner,
Very well said.
Michael
Michael, I concur; that’s some sound wisdom from RidgeRunner. 😉
RidgeRunner, I keep forgetting to ask you: besides your 1906 BSA, what are some other cool sproingers that you have, and recommend to us that we might like as well?
Dave,
Most of the old gals around here are because of some thing they did a little differently than others. One sproinger I have is an exceptionally easy air rifle to shoot. It is also pretty accurate. The barrel lock mechanism was patented in 1905, which makes me think this FLZ is older than BB thinks.
/blog/2017/07/millita-breakbarrel-rifle-part-3/
Now this Webley is not really that accurate, but the operation of it is really cool.
/blog/2019/01/webley-service-mark-ii-part-7/
Another thing you may notice with many of these old gals, is that they tend to be heavy as they use steel and walnut in their construction. They can take quite a bit of abuse and still keep going. “It takes a lickin’ and keeps on tickin’.” 😉
Thanks RidgeRunner, that’s a couple of classic beauties you’ve got there! 🙂
RidgeRunner,
I know you consider yourself more a shooter than a collector, but your collection is of elite classics some in the know speak of in hushed tones of reverence. It isn’t the size of a collection but its quality.
Michael
Michael,
Indeed. How many can you shoot? I have known of collections that numbered in the hundreds, most of which I would not own. There are some classics out there I would like to own, but the price of such would choke you. I was too late on the scene to pick them up at reasonable prices. 😉
I would really like to own a couple of old style PCPs, but once again I came on the scene too late. Some of the “boutique” airgun manufacturers experimented with them in the late 90’s, but that ended up going south and I missed out on those. The Girandoni would get about twenty good shots on an 800 PSI fill. What is wrong with this picture?
RidgeRunner,
Good point — you can shoot only one at a time. Regarding old style PCPs, every now and then I will see a John Bowkett or something similar on the gun broker site. They aren’t extremely expensive, but they are more than a Seneca Dragon Claw. Perhaps a good thing is that they tend to be smaller calibres, .177, .20, .22 and so.
And even less rare on the used market are Dennis Quackenbush’s excellent air guns. They often are indeed comparable in price to a Seneca Dragon claw. And of course those are built one-at-a-time by a single individual. I would be tempted if I saw a DAQ Amaranth for sale, unless the asking price were too rich for my blood. And I believe Dennis is still making air guns.
I wonder if Gary Barnes air guns, which rarely come up for sale, are commanding the same prices as they used to. A lot of that might have been tempered by price point PCPs pulling down the price of mid-level PCPs, pulling down the price of higher end, etc. The Barnes guns are a unique sort of thing that maybe still has a devoted cult following.
A wise man once said, “The secret to happiness is learning to desire what you already possess.” Shoot what you have. What you have, in particular, is very nice indeed.
Michael
Here’s some recently auctioned Quackenbushes:
https://www.proxibid.com/lotinformation/78107572/four-quackenbush-airrifles
$1,300
From D. Beeman’s collection.
Roamin Greco,
Those are indeed Henry M. Quackenbush airguns:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackenbush_rifle
Those are collectibles due to age and scarcity but not because they are all that well made.
The airguns that Dennis A. Quackenbush (DAQ) makes to this day are very well crafted hunting arms. I am of the opinion, based on owning and using some number of them frequently, that DAQs will be around for many generations. With a modicum of care DAQs will remain as functional as the day they were broken in in the next century and beyond.
shootski
As I understand it the Quackenbush name is a coincidence and not an indication of ancestry. Those are cool, however!
Michael,
“A wise man once said, “The secret to happiness is learning to desire what you already possess.” Shoot what you have.”
That is No Hogwash!
shootski
:^) X 2
RR
Obviously I sent the wrong message. It’s just that I like balance in my life and these last months spr(o)fingers got the biggest part of BB’s attention.
As far as my personal choices concerned; 2 PCPs against 12 of the other power plants. Even a Diana mod 1…
Bill,
I would not mind a few more PCPs myself, but the issue is there are not that many “old” PCPs available for BB to review and many of the “new” ones are “same stuff, different day”. It is that or the new PCPs are made of unobtainium.
Quite agree. That Evanix Viper looks that way (new and unobtainium made) to me.
This is probably why I asked Tom to review it.
Bill,
I think a of of it comes down to what one does with airguns. I shoot aluminum cans and targets at short distances as I drink an iced tea on my patio. Springers and CO2 air guns are ideal for me. But if I eradicated pests and hunted game, well, there is really one choice, a PCP.
Michael
RidgeRunner,
Do they NOT work when filled to lower pressures and get practical hot counts?
S-O-unds like O-perator error to me….
WH, WH, WH!!!!
shootski
shootski,
Thank goodness some do. I used to have a Talon SS that had the valve tuned to 1900 PSI. The ones tuned to around 3200 PSI usually do well at 3000. Unfortunately, the valves tuned to 4500 PSI are not there most efficient at 3000 PSI.
Methinks you would love a USFT. Ever own one?
Michael,
I am afraid not. I have looked at them many times and drooled to own one, but the price tag…
RR,
RidgeRunner wrote above, “Michael, I am afraid not.”
The corniest joke I know (maybe):
A piece of string goes into a bar. The barkeep says, “Sorry, we don’t serve pieces of string here.” The piece of string goes outside and rubs himself up and down the rough brick of the bulding and then rolls around in loops on the ground. It goes back in. The barkeep says, “I told you before, we don’t serve pieces of string here.”
The string looks at him and replies, “I’m a frayed knot.” ;8^D
Michael
RidgeRunner,
That balanced valve requirement is why the small caliber VHpa airguns need a double/triple step down to get the needed/desired input pressure for stable performance. Balance Valves are still the key ingredient to great shooting PCPs regardless of recent Regulator improvements.
But you already knew that!
shootski
shootski,
Indeed. With the very high pressures, some of the better regulated airguns actually have two or more regulators these days. Regulators fail. The larger the pressure differential, the higher the failure rate. Regulators are better made these days, but they still fail.
What are regulators anyway? They are a form of valve. They basically will let high pressure gas flow through them until the gas on one side is at a pressure you desire and then it closes.
The old timey PCPs used a form of tuned valves. They are starting to make a comeback but are still pretty pricey.
Yeah shootski, you know all this stuff, but there are some out there who just do not get it.
RidgeRunner,
Now that bit of excellent information about valves certainly is No HOGWARSH!
shootski
RidgeRunner
I think there is a very good reason BB chose a springer for his go-to pesting rifle. It is my preferred power plant as well.
SL,
The sproinger can be more easily and readily available for short range work. With a very few exceptions, PCPs are often better for longer ranges with more power and usually better accuracy.
RR
I agree completely. I own a number of PCPs. They are fantastic rifles (the Benjamin Discovery being among my favorites) but the need for ancillary equipment is a huge ding to the powerplant.
When I reach for an air rifle it is usually a springer, or my recently acquired Dragonfly MK II.
RidgeRunner,
Michael may think what you wrote is: “Very well said.”
But i think it is HOGWARSH!
I own a number of old (modern era) PCPs and they ALL work. Maybe it is because i chose them WISELY.
As far as the original PCPs every Giardoni i have had the pleasure to hold was fully functional; yes at eyewatering prices or just plain (https://www.khm.at/
https://www.khm.at/besuchen/sammlungen/hofjagd-und-ruestkammer/) unobtainable.
Clip Artist makers and Owners are to blame for airguns that don’t work; not powerplant types!
Nothin personal.
END OF RANT!
shootski
shootski,
Unfortunately, many of the old PCPs I have come across over the years were non functional. With the proper TLC, they could likely be brought back to life. As far as Quakenbush airguns are concerned, they were made to a higher standard than most airguns, no matter what type or brand, will ever achieve.
This also proves my point that most PCPs these days are WAY overpriced.
RidgeRunner,
Yup!
But most DAQs are accused by various folks on Blogs of not being Target Gun accurate…LOL!
They look GOOD too.
They hunt well though… ;^)
shootski
shootski,
“Michael may think what you wrote is: “Very well said. But i think it is HOGWARSH!”
shootski, might it be very well said hogwarsh? ;^)
What RR wrote is opinion, which all of us have, but that it was well-put is less subjective. It was pretty “dangnabbit” well said, even if one reasonably (please note I wrote reasonably) disagrees.
Michael
Michael,
There is a distinct difference between hogwash and HOGWARSH; RidgeRunner and i understand the difference and also keeping PCPs UP and running.
Too much STUFF (family friendly BLOG translation/substitution) is written in “well said” form these days….
Simply put: i was funin’ him; he got it.
shootski
;^)
Tom,
This is a series I will just eat up. Like a favorite snack food, you can’t eat just one!
So you come into a Beeman R7 with the cool stock, and it turns out to be well tuned. Help me out, I’m not good at Math. Is that good luck times 2 or good luck squared?
Michael
Michael,
Yes and at least! 🙂
BB
Michael,
Do you still want to replace the front sight on your new wood stock 362?
I wonder if these front sights could work,
/images/zoomed/Crosman-Silhouette-PCP-Match_CR-1701P_pistol_zm2.jpg
/images/zoomed/Crosman-2300S-Silhouette_CR-2300S_pistol_zm2.jpg
Fish
Fish,
It would depend on whether the circumference of the barrel would match and if the sight post is not too high. This Ataman sight is more expensive than the Skinner one, and it looks like it might be too thick, but I think it would maybe work, too. I am leaning towards the Skinner in brass. /product/foresight?a=8145
Michael
Michael, I like the idea of the Skinner in brass; my Hawken has a thin brass front sight; it’s excellent. 😉
No matter how you look at it, old-school FM sees this Beeman as a very handsome looking rifle. Glad to see it in your hands, B.B. Now, somewhat off-topic, but since PCPs were mentioned by some of the readership, just read there is a PCP manufacturer for sale, Extreme Big Bore Air Rifles, a division of Texas Machine Parts. So, for you out there itching to be entrepeneurs in your favorite area of interest, here is your opportunity. No doubt you will never be bored running that business.
B.B.
I also can’t wait on this one. Been search for R7 articles for some time. I love that the new R7 kept the stock and didn’t change. The Pic of the gun on PA’s site is beautiful (I’m surprised you didn’t put a link for it, unless I missed it). You may just push me into buying one. Oh and I’ve already checked, currently they are backordered.
Doc
There is still one in the Refurbished pile.
Mike
It’s kinda weird how Weihrauch is still maintaining its HW30, 50, 35, 80, 85, 95, with all their varying piston diameters, instead of standartizing on one or two general piston designs&diameters.
Dave, I have an old pre safety R7 if you need one.
David Enoch
Hi David, was this to me? (I didn’t see it in my email; I just noticed it whilst reviewing the comments).
You can email me directly at thedavemyster@gmail.com
Thank you. 🙂
Off subject,
Looking at the new ASG 1911 BB pistol on PA’s site. Steel Frame, Steel Slide! Blowback that gets 420 FPS? Most blow backs struggle to get out the 300’s. Looks very good (hint hint BB)
/product/1911-us-c-co2-blowback-pistol?m=5840&utm_source=commission_junction&utm_medium=affiliate_program&utm_campaign=PyramydAir&utm_term=Archer+Airguns+Inc.&cjevent=b1e75174386911ee835927560a1cb82b&cjdata=MXxOfDB8WXww
Doc
Doc
I could only read metal frame. Steel no. Could you please help?
Bill,
you are correct. Slide and Frame are metal, not steel. I just used that as a blanket term for not plastic. I shouldn’t have done that.
Doc
BB,
I was not going to comment until mid fall, but for this beauty, I had to. You said the reason to buy an R7 was because of the old style stock. However, HW30S Deluxe has the old style stock, and it’s almost $45 cheaper than the R7. Despite that, I believe what makes R7 unique is still hidden in its stock; 30S Deluxe is for right handed folks only, and R7’s stock is ambidextrous. So, if you want the old style stock in ‘ambidextrous,’ then R7 is the only way to go – that has to be the R7’s selling point. Also, if you’re southpaw and feel as if even the old style stock is too high, just keep in mind that 30S Deluxe has no comb for the left handed shooters. If someone comes up with a no comb ambidextrous version one day, that’ll be something.
Also, this R7 didn’t work excellently out of the box; someone had tuned it to a perfection. So, if you were to buy an R7 brand new, and it happened to work flawlessly without a twang or what not, then you’d have a winner out of the box. Diana 27 was a winner without any tune ups, which made her special. She was not excellent, but she was good at every aspect. I’m not looking to scratch an itch, I just hope that Diana will hear. Who doesn’t want the good old 27 and 34 back – with the traditional sights?
You see, Fender guitars created a brand called Squire. Squire is cheaply made outsourced versions of it’s guitars. Fender still produces it’s American Strats, Teles and such; no need to get rid of the pricy good quality products just because you also produce cheap versions. Diana should’ve done the same; create a new brand and sell the cheap versions of it’s product line under that new name – keep the name Diana for the quality line. Other than the 350 magnum, the new breakbarrel Diana springers don’t live up to the name of the Roman goddess of the hunt and wild animals. Perhaps, they should change their logo; Diana should drop the springer and pick up the bow now!?
Oh, I’ve found the ideal front sight for the two forty: /blog/images/01-12-09-front.jpg
Fish
Fish, I hear you; I had a Fender Squire Precision Bass for years.
For an inexpensive (~$400 when I got it) bass, it was pretty sweet. 🙂
Does the two forty have a dovetail at the muzzle end of the barrel? All the classic Dianas did, but the newer ones?
RG
My T05 D350 with FO sights, which I removed, didn’t have a dovetail, just a flat area on the upper part, to keep the whole plastic assembly aligned. Dovetail is on the premium models with real iron sights.
Regarding the ideal replacement sight for the Diana Two Forty, I really doubt there is a dovetail hidden under the permanently glued on plastic front sight. See B.B.’s report, Part 1 for a picture.
No, there is not a dovetail hidden under the plastic. What I wrote in the comment was a one item wishlist to Diana, not an end-user part replacement recommendation. Needless to say, the design of the barrel has to be changed to make what I wished happen. I had already written a whole bunch in the comment at the time, so I didn’t want to add more details and bore the readers. I assumed the barrel design of two forty had already been known by the folks here anyway.
Fish,
Perhaps a gunsmith could likely cut a dovetail in the muzzle end of the barrel. Depends on how much metal thickness is available.
Keep paddling; I am.
shootski
I’ve been renting kayaks a lot this season.
Fish, if the folks at Diana are listening, I for one would agree that a front sight dovetail should be standard (parallel with the barrel). And a front sight with a set of inserts should be available as an upgrade or a part that regular folks can purchase, like the HW sight is.
I don’t know if anyone hears what I say. I want to suggest product ideas to only ‘listeners’ from now on. Perhaps, BB might write a series where we could directly send messages to the folks at Air Venturi via comments here. How about let’s detail a low powered springer design concept as a community and submit the commonly desired features and specs to Air Venturi? It doesn’t have to become a reality in the end; it would be a good brainstorming activity and lots of fun.
Fish,
Before convincing anybody to produce it we need to create a market for it first. The current demographics are for velocity and power. It is easier to sell items with big numbers on the box. We need to educate the coming generation regarding accuracy and ease of use to create a demand.
Siraniko
Siraniko, your comment and Fish’s
gets me thinking back to my own introduction and reintroduction to airguns, my Dad bought me a Crosman 760 multipump with which to teach me to shoot. Initially, I couldn’t pump it past three pumps or hold it right,, but I persevered. Years later, I wanted to get a single shot airgun with which to teach my own kids. Again, the goal was to find an appropriate airgun with which to teach children to shoot. Accuracy is important, but competitive precision is not paramount. A sublime trigger that breaks a 1.5 oz. is not needed or desired, but a decent trigger that breaks cleanly and consistently will do. Velocity? How much is needed to shred a soda pop can at 10 yards? Not much. My point is, I did not succumb to the marketing hype, because I was looking for a gun for the kids to learn on, not one that would be a chore after 15 minutes. So I don’t think the smart ones will fall for the hype. However, something like the Embark in accuracy, size, and power is just about perfect. Add a peep sight with a scope stop pin and a scope stop. The front sight is already great. And make it to fit kids as they grow. The Embark already has a stock that will fit 12″ and 13″ length of pull, make one that will fit 10″ and 11″ and a adult-sized stock as an option (would the Ruger Explorer stock work on the Embark Action, and if so, is it longer?). Heck you might even sell an adult or kid-sized wood stock as an optional upgrade.
I would market it as a gun to teach kids with, but that can be enjoyed by the whole family. Advertising accuracy rather than velocity will distinguish it from its peers. That will require the extra step of the factory cleaning the barrel, testing, and including the test target with the gun. You may find they’ll sell in groups of 4 or five with different colors.
Yeah, just like Red Ryder, but a pellet springer that all family could enjoy on a Sunday afternoon.
Siraniko, you have very good points. But to convince the masses, there has to be a reasonably priced proper pellet springer which delivers that sweet low velocity accuracy in .177 caliber.
Anyway, I’ve come up with the idea as I sense as if Air Venturi has always wanted to add a weak pellet springer to its product line. Bronco and TR5 have made me feel that way. I may be wrong of course; I cannot read minds. 🙂
Fish, I think your idea is the perfect Friday/weekend discussion.
RC, I won’t hold my breath… 🙂
Just imagine a two forty with traditional tunnel sights of Diana, or Embark with two forty’s stock, or…
First time here, Love your blog. I will keep it kid friendly this time! Love my HW 30 and its new stock. Comes to my eye just fine. Scoped, flies look out, have no chance in a lawn full of dog residue. I do fine bench shooting. But, when it comes to quick aim and fire on prey, I have a hard time. If you, BB, or anyone else has some advice, would love to hear it! Thanks.
dot,
I think you are talking about shooting offhand. That’s my difficult area as well.
Read the HW 30S report.
/blog/2021/09/hw-30s-part-14/
BB
dot,
For hunting from off hand there is much going on. Getting as low as line of sight (also clear muzzle to target) allows is always the first thing to do.
Prone, sitting, kneeling, and lastly standing is the order of best stability. Improvised rests or shooting stick(s) and a properly used shooters sling all are of help. Building a stable shooting position in each is one that takes time and experimentation. Foot placement (line to target) and building YOUR proper Off Hand body position that gives you a Natural Point of Aim is vital to faster acquisition in the field.
Knowing your sight system COLD. Knowing your rifles trajectory COLD will both help immensely.
Practice, practice, practice is always needed.
NOT shooting beyond your personal effective range.
Never stop learning about ballistics, your prey’s anatomy/habits, and reading the WIND better. Work on you Field Skills every time in the wild.
Also look and learn tricks to use on prey that will anchor them for a little bit longer or get them to move slightly to offer a better shot.
Entire libraries exist on this topic! Much of the information is not worth the paper or electricity and space to store it…pick a few SIMPLE concepts and get into the field and see what works for you.
shootski
shootski,
Thanks for the advice. I have become too comfortable bench shooting. Used to have a Red Ryder that I loved snap shooting matches with. Have to rig up a moving target, and practice. Actually, that would also make bench shooting more fun!
dot,
The Daisy 499B will make a better offhand shooter out of you.
/blog/2021/06/daisys-499b-target-bb-gun-part-3/
BB
BB,
Always wanted one of those. Loved my little Red Ryder when I had it. Pretty accurate around 5 yards. You ever hear of a guy named Chief AJ? I believe I remember his name right. He was out of Illinois, and taught point and shoot with a Red Ryder. Videos of him popping paint balls out of the air with the bb gun. Made it look easy! Thanks for writing back. Again, Love your blog.
dot,
Good advice, if your prey is sitting on your car, or any car, under it, and especially close to a tire, don’t even try. Those pesky fliers can really get you upset 🙁
What Shootski said, and practice, practice, practice. You really need to know where that pellet will hit at any given distance. I suggest a UTG Hunter fixed 4x Mil-dot airgun scope, easier to pick up targets, with a 35yds parallax setting or something like it. Works well for me on a dedicated pest control airgun.
Put a hat high on your forehead in the direct sunlight 😉
Bob M,
Its been awhile since I used a dot scope. Thanks for bringing that up. Also, I only shoot towards my partner’s car. I don’t tend to get as upset with those fliers!
B.B. and Readership,
Off Topic.
China’s Communist Party has set themselves up as each of the previous Middle Kingdom Empires did for eventual failure. The WE know best approach has forever failed them. Currently China is in default to the USA and other countries investors on Sovereign Debt in greater amounts than most folks realize. They have a GIANT demographic (self inflicted) nightmare and far sooner than even they recently realized. They have an economic nightmare in their failed Belt & Road Initiative (BRI) in many Third and Second World countries; including a few in the First World’s (Italy, Greece, and others) European Union.
https://www.cfr.org/blog/countries-chinas-belt-and-road-initiative-whos-and-whos-out
The BRI is however in BIG trouble due to Covid and the DEEP Recession most of the Third World and much of the Second World is suffering through. China is about to take a real debt crisis.
Add to that the unemployment rate 30+% among military service age males (would be the same among females too if they had a normal number of them) causes a very dangerous situation. One saving grace is that most are not trained in the military arts and most would probably not serve (also a well kept media secret in Ukraine until the recent Recruiter dismissals) if you doubt that they (Ukrainian) are just like the Russians in this area. Still don’t believe it? Ask yourself about the artillery and Small Arm Round shoot away rates that are deleting Western Ammunition Reserves. Militaries that have manpower shortages (or an unwillingness to use the manpower they have on hand) do that!
Hopefully our “leadership” can hang on long enough to watch the Middle Empire do another historically correct implosion.
It will hurt the World’s people and economy badly; but not nearly as bad as a WWIII would.
Think about it.
shootski
Shootski, things have changed a lot in the mindset of people since the Russians last used bodies of men they considered expendable to clear minefields by having them run thru them. Also, kinda doubtful you could get troops to make a Pickett’s-style charge these days. Could be wrong. Like Sgt. Schultz, FM knows nozink!
FawltyManuel,
The Western Allies spent a great deal of effort training Ukrainian troops in Western Tactical Operations; it hasn’t worked out well due to a number of reasons; the Ukranians have returned to Warsaw Pact Tactics that are wasteful of equipment and even more so of very limited forces.
Based on pure numbers with the continued use of currently employed tactics the outcome is inevitable.
Appalling!
shootski
I love the weekend discourse.
I have a Beeman R7 Serial number that came to me as part if a lot of three airguns in an online auction. The breach seal was hard and had a bad spot on it, so I removed it and it crumbled to pieces. I will get it a new seal and retest it. It’s a classic old gal that needs some love. She’s a nice companion to the more modern R7 that I purchased from a gentleman in a nearby town. The latter R7 is super accurate and I have her set up like Ridgerunner’s, with a peep sight in the rear and an adjustable truglo front sight.
In other news, I was watching a well maintained Diana 24 D on the Bay, but my honey-do activities yesterday interfered and I missed it. By chance, did any of you pick it up? I was interested to compare it to my Diana 24 J and the Diana Two Forty and the 240 Classic.
In
RG,
Diagnosis:
Near to a Full blown case!
Roamin Greco’s Home For Airguns is growing in leaps and bounds.
This variant of airgunitis needs a formal name…
shootski
You are right, Doc. What’s a guy to do? I need a gun ROOM.
RG, until you have a gun wing in the house, you’re just getting started.
“Gun wing”…I like the sound of that. But we have to get there in baby steps. First, a gun “closet”…. :o)