Today we have another guest blog by reader Ian McKee who we call 45Bravo. He shows us the Crosman DPMS from a shooter’s point of view.
If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me at blogger@pyramydair.com.
Take it away, 45Bravo.
Crosman full-auto BB guns for a plinker/action shooter
Crosman’s DPMS SBR.
This report covers:
- The 3B rating.
- The shooting spectrum.
- Target choices
- Using the guns for training
- It is like LEGO
- The guts of the airgun
- What does all this mean?
- As BB said in the blog, BUY IT!
The 3B rating
Back in 2018 B.B. wrote a 3 part blog about the Crosman DPMS SBR. It earned the coveted 3B rating (Buy it, Buy it, Buy it!)
The shooting spectrum
That says a lot about the gun, coming from a man who is pretty good at, and likes to make tiny groups of holes in paper, and is not really into making things ring/swing as fast as you can pull the trigger. They are at the opposite ends of the shooting spectrum.
One discipline centers on controlling your heart rate, breathing, concentrating on the front sight, while not rushing the shot, and follow through after the shot is fired.
The other is a pedal-to-the-metal race against the clock. It’s all about how fast can you can engage and HIT multiple targets at different distances, in challenging courses of fire.
Don’t get me wrong, I like making small groups on targets also, but some guns are boringly accurate, (RidgeRunner back me up on this) and if you do your part, making small groups is easy with them.
Making small groups on paper under the pressure of competition adds a complete magnitude of difficulty.
My idea of fun is, once you are zeroed, it is time to move to things that move and make noise when you hit them.
In the blog, B.B. was getting dime/nickel-sized groups at 10 yards. While not outstanding accuracy for a pellet gun, it is more than adequate for action shooting at longer distances out to 25 or 30 yards.
A hit anywhere on a steel target is a hit, it’s a yes or no feedback. Group size doesn’t matter. So your accuracy only has to be sub-minute-of-your-target.
With the ammo availability and pricing issues currently happening, powder burner shooters are either curbing their trigger time or seeking other alternatives to stay in practice. This is where the Crosman line of full auto BB guns shine. While they do offer the full-auto option here in the USA, and it makes for a fun family picnic rolling feral tin cans in the backyard, you don’t HAVE to use full-auto all the time. That being said, I have yet to see a person young or old that was not smiling from ear to ear after ripping through a mag on full-auto.
A lot of benefit, and enjoyment can be had in the semiauto mode.
Crosman now offers several styles of AR-15 patterned co2 guns, and an AK platform gun with the same internals.
Some people say, “But it’s just a BB gun.” Don’t overlook the fact that the military of many countries have a long history of using airguns or other alternate means to reduce the cost of marksmanship training. What you are shooting does not matter — as long as you are still practicing sight picture, trigger control, and follow-through.
On my last trip to the firearm range, one of my friends was lamenting about the high cost and lack of availability of ammo. This friend who is not an airgunner, and is one who has always given me a lot of grief about “playing with toys” when I would bring an airgun to the range.
I handed him my Crosman DPMS SBR. He ran through a few drills he had been running with his AR-15 and, at distances from 20 ft, to about 35 yards, he hit every target in the stage, needless to say, he was impressed with the airgun.
He now has set up an airgun practice range on some land he owns.
He sent me this video.
First a word of caution, always wear eye protection, and do not shoot steel BBs at metal or wood targets, as they will bounce back AT YOU just as fast as you sent them down range.
I would suggest using the Air Venturi Dust Devils when shooting at metal targets.
Target choices
There are many metal target choices that give audible and visual feedback when hit. From tin cans, swinging spinners, and dueling trees, to the new Air Venturi BadaBang target that is paired to a smart device like a tablet or phone, and will generate random sequences. You must hit the targets in the order the target presents, and you can compete against your friends times and score using their Air Venturi BadaBang system at their home.
Some of the larger fun action but less expensive targets can be aluminum pie plates, or even the disposable thin aluminum roasting pans you cook in during the holidays. The tins can be had in sizes closely replicating center mass of a man-sized target. They are thin enough to allow the projectiles to pass through, and they make a loud metallic sound when hit.
The slow flight time of the BB also aids in follow-through because you have to wait for the 420 f.p.s. projectile to hit the target at 25 yards before you move to the next target.
You COULD just fire as your sights cross the target, as you are transitioning to the next target, but when you miss the target, you have to break your rhythm, take the extra time to go back, reacquire the missed target, and score a hit on a target you HAD already aimed at, or you may take a time penalty.
Going fast is slow, going slow is fast. It sounds weird, but it is a true statement. Make the hit first; speed and fluidity will come with practice. If you take the time do it right the first time, you don’t have to go back and do it a second time.
Using the guns for training
On several of the Crosman models they have standard sized external parts in key places that will interchange with the firearm models so the practice gun can have the same weight, grip, stock, forearm, optics and muscle memory as your firearm.
One notable exception is the threaded barrel, it is threaded in 14mm left hand threads like airsoft guns (lefty tighty not righty tighty). So standard 1/2×20 airgun muzzle devices, or actual firearm 1/2×28 threaded devices will not fit.
It is like LEGO
You can also build your “dream gun” that in firearm form would cost many thousands of dollars, and months of waiting for the several Federal Tax Stamps filed with the BATFE. (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms & Explosives.)
This gun would be virtually impossible/prohibitively expensive for the average person to build or buy in firearm form today; select fire, 10 inch barrel, adjustable stock, and functioning suppressor.
The guts of the airgun
I think everyone will agree that the heart of any CO2 airgun is the valve. If the valve fails, its dead unless replacement parts can be bought or fabricated. The lungs are how the gun gets its air or gas to propel the projectile. And the digestive system is how it feeds on its diet of pellets or BBs. If any one of these key areas were to fail, you have a wall hanger.
Someone at Crosman was thinking of this when they designed the new series of guns. The magazine contains all of the major “guts” of the gun. The valve, the air supply, and the feed mechanism are all contained within in the detachable magazine, along with an extra feature not normally found on BB guns, it has last round bolt hold open.
So no more wasted CO2 when you are out of ammo.
The valve is located in the big metal block on the top left, and the tab indicated b the arrow is the bolt hold open.
Only the simple blowback mechanism and striker are housed in the “bolt carrier group” inside the upper receiver. This will be quite familiar to AR-15 owners.
The bolt carrier group.
The lower receiver houses the fire control group, which controls the safe, semi- and full-auto functions. It also houses a “dual buffer assembly” that actually are the springs for closing the bolt carrier, and driving the striker inside the bolt carrier to actuate the valve when the trigger is pulled.
Looking straight down on the DPMS SBR lower receiver, we see the sear that interacts with the bolt in the upper receiver.
The way the guns internal parts function, really do have a lot in common with its firearm counterpart. They are just in no way interchangeable.
What does all this mean?
Mostly, if the gun stops functioning or develops a leak, just replace the magazine. That would likely cure 90% of the possible malfunctions.
They do sell extra magazines, and since the magazine will only hold 25 rounds, at the stated rate of fire of 1400 rounds a minute (about 23 shots a second) 25 rounds doesn’t last very long.
The also sell a QR mag (Quick Reloading) magazine which has a 300 round BB reservoir, that will quickly load the 25 round feed tube in just a couple of seconds without removing the magazine from the gun.
The downside of the QR magazine, is as you walk or move around, the BBs in the reservoir sound like a half empty box of Tic-Tacs. But it is so much faster to reload.
As BB said in the blog, BUY IT!!
While you are at it, buy co2, and buy a LOT of BBs. 1500 B B’s will be about 60 magazines of use. When you are getting approximately 200 shots per fill, (your mileage may vary), you will need about 15 or so co2 cartridges to get through that box of BBs.
I picked up my Crosman DPMS SBR with 1 magazine in a trade, I do not know the round count history of the gun, but as of this writing I have over 5000 rounds through mine with no mechanical issues so far, and following the maintenance listed in the manual.
I can tell you from experience, that 1500 BBs and 15 co2 cartridges, makes for a very enjoyable and memorable afternoon with the family.
Shoot safe, have fun.
Ian
45Bravo,
Thanks for the article. So now your friend can practice in his backyard? With an MSRP of $190 for the gun with one magazine and MSRP of $50 for each additional magazine that becomes a very attractive for a lot of competition shooters who otherwise would not be able to practice. Considering that a competitor would be spending about $1000 for an upper receiver alone, that’s a lot of savings. Thanks for also turning a firearm shooter to the world of airguns.
Siraniko
Hi folks,
isn’t it funny what kind of misconceptions people have about things and how they speak with conviction about topics they know very little about? (We are probably just as guilty of this in other fields)
Airguns are a great example.
Firearms shooter: “Oh, you’re playing with toys!” (Sure, if a Feinwerkbau or even a Weihrauch is a “toy”… Not that I care anyway. I will absolutely play with toys if I think they’re fun.)
Clueless “random people” (especially in Germany or other countries with very strict gun laws):
“Is that… *gasp*… a GUN?”
-Yup, that’s an airgun.
“So, you’re one of *those folks*” (Probably imagining mass murderers or “gun nuts” who stockpile dozens of guns and millions of rounds of ammo)
-Nope, that’s low-powered airgun and I’d have to shoot you a hundred times with it to *maybe* kill you.
“Oh, so you shoot cute little animals?”
-Nope, hunting with airguns is illegal and I wouldn’t want to do it anyway.
“So what *do* you do?” *Scratches head*
I shoot paper targets for accuracy and sometimes I shoot at tin cans and stuff.
“Oh…”
Kind regards,
Stephan
Stephan,
I have considered taking my .357 HM1000X to the rifle range and start busting clays at 100 yards. That would get their attention.
RidgeRunner,
It will!
Based on actual experience…but then do we want them that well informed!?!?!
shootski
Shootski,
These good old boys around here still would not understand.
“Weeell, I just bought me ‘nother AR15 fer $400. Why would I wanna spend thet much on a toy?”
$400? You haven’t kept up with pandemic pricing obviously..
Yes it has effected airgun pricing also.
You will be hard pressed to find an AR~15 based rifle for sale for less than $800.
A aluminum lower receiver was $49 before the pandemic, now they run over $100, but prices are slowing coming down.
A cheap bolt carrier group used to be ~$90, now they are running ~$160 ish..
The price of pellets and co2 has risen also.
The resale price of vintage Crosman Mark 1 guns and S&W airguns has almost doubled in the last year.
Ian
if a couple of Karens see that guy out there cause it looks like he is in a suburb they will call the cops and he gets shot 40 times
He is actually in North Houston and not in the city limits. The Area where he is shooting is on the corner of his property where he already has a range he has opened for law-enforcement training and for civilians to shoot but they can only use simunitions. (Non lethal training ammunition).
But that training ammo is also expensive, as in 9mm cost about $1 a round. And over $1 for .223 simunition.
He is now looking into these guns as an alternative to the more expensive simunitions for people that just want to practice on targets and not on each other that the simunitions were designed for.
The simunitions were designed for force on force training, and shoot a plastic pellet filled with a dye kind of like paintball, but using realistic guns.
So the police already are familiar with what goes on at that address…
Ian..
This is exactly why I don’t shoot my airguns in the garden.
It would be perfectly legal as long as I use a suitable backstop, but in the best case, I would have to answer a ton of annoying questions from the neighbours about what I’m doing, what kind of gun I have, if I’m a gun nut or a hunter, etc… No thanks.
CptKlotz,
I lived in Stuttgart for a number of years while still on active duty in the US Navy…it confused my German neighbors when I told them we had submarines operating in the Neckar River as well as the Rhine. LOL!
shootski
Mildot52,
I was shooting paperon my backyard range with my two SIG ASP20 a few weekends back when the police responded to my address. What they found at my side gate was a sign and a RED FLAG. The sign says AIRGUN RANGE is HOT! DO NOT ENTER
CALL XXX XXX XXXX to gain permission to enter ONLY once RANGE IS MADE COLD!
I got a call on my Mobile so I made my last shot, made the RANGE SAFE (put rifle down) and walked to gate asked them, “What’s Up?”. After they left I called the owner of the rental property (unregistered AirB&B) and told him that the next time his ILLEGAL guests called the police I would report him! No calls since.
I have talked to all my neighbors about my airgun target shooting; on my first trip I take my primary trap and an average group 10M target or two with me. I explain that they are welcome to come over and shoot and give them my Mobile number to call if any issues come up. The boy next door has been over a few times and shoot the Marksman Model 1790 (Biathlon Trainer) his little sister has fits because her parents think she is to young! I have an Uzzi Water pistol that she has been shooting this Spring to keep her from melting down ;^)
Check your local Ordinances (don’t forget noise rules) and HOA rules if applicable.
Talk to you neighbors and get some good Range signs and don’t forget the RED Range HOT flag…it helps with LEO (Law Enforcement Officers,) neighbors, and legal issues. Use a good primary trap, secondary, and tertiary trap system you won’t have problems!
shootski
I would not want to talk to cops while having a fake gun which looks real
Telling the neighbours what you’re doing and inviting them to join you sounds like a good plan.
I’m in the German version of “the suburbs” but this area is still fairly densely populated, so there are simply too many people who could potentially see me shooting in the garden. Most of them would probably be alarmed when they see something that they can’t distinguish from a firearm.
I guess my 10 meter indoor range is fine. I can shoot all day and night if I want to and nobody cares 🙂
Shootski
Glad I dont deal with that bull.
If its your property and you contain your shots on your ground and its legal to shoot in your area then no need to hang the red hot range flag other than your own generosity for your neighbors.
The way I see it is I pay taxes just like the rest of the neighbors. Sounds like you got nosey neighbors.
Gunun1,
Don ever live in a place like I do in the East! Out West at the SkisShed no one is close enough to hear! And, if they are they are a potential target since the land is posted.
shootski
shootski
Shootski,
I have not mentioned my airgun range to anyone, but every once in a while someone will come by and see it. Around here, nobody gets excited by an airgun. Yesterday one of my neighbors let loose with his AR15, shooting as fast as he could. Some fellow on the hill behind me will burn through a couple hundred rounds almost every weekend. Almost every day and night you here a firearm going off around here. No, nobody around here gets excited about airguns.
Sounds like Texas..
Even in houston, people don’t get upset about gunfire…
Ian,
LOL! Yes, some airguns are boringly accurate. Of course, I am not shooting competition, at least not the kind that is decided by the thickness of a hair and can break out into fist fights over it. That could be why I rather enjoy just sitting on the steps of the back porch, leaning against the railing and killing feral soda cans with these old gals. Now, if I was out hunting I would like to have that boring accuracy.
3B rating? Hmmm. Sounds almost like my 3R rating (RidgeRunner Recommended).
Now as for this bb gun, you have almost convinced me. I few years back I was at a GTA Fun Shoot and this guy let me play with his M712 for a bit. It was a blast. You had better have a brother-in-law who works at a bb factory and another who works at a CO2 plant though.
If I did break down and pick up one of these, Tic Tacs or not, I would have to have that quick loading magazines. I am too old and fat to do that silly running around and stuff. Besides, who cares if the bbs are rattling around inside the magazine anyway? If you were shooting a real AR, you could not hear anything anyway. 😉
If you buy the co2 cartridges and bbs a retail, yes it can get a little expensive.
But no where close to the cost of firearm ammunition per round.
And most of us can shoot them in the back yard.
If you buy them Jen bulk, or buy them as a wholesale, the cost drops significantly.
Dr. Beeman once said one of the reasons he liked airguns was the HUMAN SCALE.
I will find and paste that article here in a minute.
RR
Another point often not mentioned. You do not need to use hearing protection with BB guns.
Ian,
Nice write up. That would make anyone think seriously about getting one.
Chris
Chris,
Yup! +1
Dan
Ian
Fun reading! Just a well written report on a gun I won’t be getting since I would have to rent land in order to shoot it. I’m old but I can still dream.
The only boring airguns are the ones that won’t shoot sub one inch groups at 25 yards.
Deck
Still having an airblast with the Umarex MP40 – hopefully it will not be the last full auto bb slinger FM will own. It is fired full auto, but in short bursts, as was intended with the original 9mm.
FM is blessed with being almost surrounded by nice, normal and down to earth suburbanites who are familiar with firearms and airguns, and do not hesitate to use their air EDTs (Energy Delivery Tools) to do necessary, legal and encouraged pest control work. And put down a few cans too.
45Bravo,
My first civilian AR-15 (firearm) was a DPMS that i purchased in the mid/late 1980’s. The fact that DPMS is still in the AR Platform business says a little about the company. Of ourse this is mostly a licensing agreement with Crosman.
Are some of the parts supplied by DPMS?
After reading your excellent writeup I’m tempted!
Thank you,
shootski
I too have been a long time DPMS owner.
On this model, I don’t think any parts are produced by DPMS.
Strictly a licensing agreement.
This gun does not accept a mil spec stock, just the pistol grip.
But I do like the looks of the stock/cheek rest on this model, as it is different.
The others crosman offer do have milspec buffer tubes and will accept mag pull, or most any other exterior parts you wish to hang on it.
Ian
Thanks Ian
shootski
Ian,
Thanks for another great report. A very good read. Not a gun on my wish list but who knows what is down the road.
Don
Benji-don,
I was looking at your valve stem slide hammer set up and it occurred to me that you might be getting early closure of the valve due to SUCTION.
Have you tested the rifle by just pulling the valve open manually? If you slap it open and leave it open you will be 100% of the flow rate etc. Some kind of anti bounce and positive open close. Desmodromic Ducati valves… actually instead of a hammer you could use a hammer-cam. It has dwell time, then lets the valve close. how silly to you want to get? OR you could use an electric poppet valve. Actually a poppet valve would work as holding back 100psi might not be that hard. then you bang it open and it shuts under spring power. but then that creates all new problems… ha ha. it’s turtles all the way down. : – )
My globe sight fell off my FEG… lead solder is not enough! May upgrade to straight tin. Still it did work for a while and if there was enough contact area it would be fine for some things. : – ) Robert.
Ian
I like different types of shooting.
But it seems most are into the target shooting.
I think they really would be surprised how much fun it is fast action shooting if they gave it a try.
I done target shooting and shotgun and plinking semi auto growing up. The most fun I have shooting is fast action plinking. Then hit the selector and go full auto. Ain’t noth’n like it. Fun stuff.
I had grown up shooting paper, and swinging cans, and hunting.
I started shooting competition with muzzle loaders, and one time I came at the wrong weekend for muzzle loaders, and there was an action IPSC match going on.
I was going stay to watch, as I am addicted to anything with a trigger.
One guy named Chris Mallett from Mansura Louisiana.
Handed me a Browning P35, a holster and 2 mags and told me to step up to the line.
I was hooked, I sold one of my least favorite guns, and bought a S&W 39-2 9mm and a couple of mags, things escalated from there and I never looked back.
Over the years, I have always returned the favor when I ran into a new shooter/spectator at a match.
I always brought extra ammo, and if I had one, an extra gun to loan to a person for that match if they showed interest in the hobby.
I have shot precision, I was no very good at it, but I wasn’t at the bottom of the list at the end of the day either.
It is just no one of my favorite types of competition, due to the level of concentration required.
I always found myself both mentally and physically exhausted after shooting precision.
Also, as I get older, my eyes aren’t the greatest, and I notice the shakes more.
So sub minute of target is more and more appealing to me.
I do like to go to the firearm range with my friends, and bring my CZ 200s .177 pcp and shoot empty .22lr shells off of the target stands of my friends at 25 yards.
From a rest.
Sometimes for giggles, I will shoot the staples holding their targets to the target stands.
But yes, I agree, make it swing, or ring, do something.
Ian..
Ian
Yep sometimes its fun to just kick back and relax and open up on some cans.
Tom wrote this back in 2012.
by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier
10. Cost
Airguns cost less to shoot. A tin of pellets costs less than any firearm ammunition I can buy or reload. Even the premium pellets cost less than the run-of-the-mill .22 rimfire ammo that I don’t buy because it isn’t worth the money. I don’t shoot for the recoil, the smell or for the sound. I shoot to hit what I aim at. With a pellet gun, I can afford to do that as often as I like.
9. Human scale
Dr. Beeman coined this term. It means the gun is scaled to contemporary life and can be used without major disruption. A .50-caliber Browning Machine Gun (BMG) round is accurate and reliable — but try finding a place to shoot one! I can shoot a pellet rifle or pistol in my house. Indeed, 90 percent of my airgun shooting is inside my home.
8. Airguns can be gunsmithed by their owners
Not many of us can exchange barrels on a 98 Mauser, or headspace a Sako Vixen. But with the right training, anyone can safely tune a spring rifle in their home. Or reseal a CO2 gun. Or modify a precharged pneumatic! Indeed, many airguns are designed with those goals in mind. You can change barrels and calibers in an AirForce Talon SS in 5 minutes. A few firearms are designed for barrel and cartridge swaps; but compared to airguns, the choices are limited.
7. I can shoot more
Besides cost, the fact that many airguns are quiet and relatively safe allows me to shoot in my home. I get to the rifle range about 4 times a month. On the average trip, I fire between 40 and 200 rounds of ammo. I do that in my house about every two or three days. So, I shoot from 5 to 10 times more often with an airgun than I do a firearm.
6. Safety
Airguns are safer than firearms. They don’t have internal pressures that are nearly as high, their projectiles don’t go as fast and they certainly don’t go as far. When a bullet ricochets, it can go a long way. When a pellet ricochets, its range is very limited. I’m not saying that airguns aren’t dangerous, but they’re far less so than firearms. When there’s an incident, it has fewer and less catastrophic consequences.
5. I can afford to own the best
The best spring rifle available today is the Air Arms TX200, and it costs $600. You can argue about what the best firearm rifle is, but whether you go for a Blaser, a Steyr, a Sako or a Dakota, you’ll be shelling out anywhere from $1,100 to $6,000 for the entry-level model. A TX200 might be a stretch, but the firearms represent such a leap that they impact the budget for a long time. The TX200 is hands-down the best of its kind. One of the rifles I mentioned is still arguably no more accurate or powerful than a more common gun costing a fraction as much.
4. I can collect more
An FWB 124 in pristine condition in the box can still be bought for $600. A pre-’64 Winchester model 70 in the same shape will cost you thousands. My Falke 90 is one of fewer than 200 such guns known to exist. A Winchester One-of-One-Thousand that exists in greater numbers costs six figures every time! Yes, my comparisons are lopsided, but think about what they mean. You probably can’t afford to buy a Colt first generation single-action in 90 percent condition, but you can afford a Sheridan Model A (Supergrade) in the same shape. Airguns that are vintage and rare simply do not command the money that firearms do. Colt Pythons are bringing $1,500 these days, while Hakims that are far rarer will fetch $400.
3. Range requirements
Even a lowly .22 rimfire needs at least enough distance that the lead doesn’t splatter back on the shooter. But in World War II, a German submarine captain had a BB pistol in his cabin. I don’t know if you’ve ever been aboard a World War II submarine, but it doesn’t offer a lot of room to shoot. A Class A motorhome is a mansion by comparison. Airguns can be shot with very limited range conditions.
2. Noise
When I go to the rifle range, I have to wear hearing protection all the time. Maybe I’m only shooting a .22 rimfire — that doesn’t stop the guy next to me from shooting his .300 Win. Mag! But any smallbore airgun, even the really loud ones like the Condor or the Evanix Windy City, still aren’t as loud as my .22. So, if I shoot alone with my smallbore airguns, I don’t need hearing protection.
1. Accuracy
I have to pay a lot to get an accurate firearm, but an accurate airgun can be very cheap. The $35 cost of a Beeman P17 is a trifling compared to what it costs to get an accurate M1911A1 pistol. And then I can shoot the air pistol for a lot less money than the firearm, which means a lot more shooting. Sure, airguns don’t shoot accurately at the far distances firearms do, but that gets us back to human scale.
Good morning!
Went to the range last night and shot 94.2 which is up from 90.1 ( .22lr )and guess why my shooting was better?! I shot my FEG Telly Relum in the garage range for about 30 minutes beforehand.
I have managed to fix the globe sight on the barrel ( pics soon ) so now I have a decent indoor low power sproinger with decent Anschutz sights. It’s is so awesome. Best group was one small ragged hole at 6m off hand. This rifle is so good it’s getting a new stock.
so I prepared myself CHEAPLY for my range night and it paid off. : – ) Robert.
45Bravo,
Thanks for the great review; I like the video; it looks like a fun gun!
And we need more guns that are fun to promote the shooting sports to future generations. =>
Take care,
dave
45 Bravo/BB,
I know this is an older blog, but I have to share. My son bought one of these (with his own money) last summer. I just viewed it as a “toy” like airsoft gun and never really shot it save for some full auto bursts. Well last weekend I took it shooting. WOW. For a BB gun, I was very impressed at the distances I was able to plink at targets. And it got lots of shots. I knew it was a fun gun, but don’t discount it is seriously accurate for what it is. And that is using the open sights or the Red Dot I put on it. He also has a laser on it.
Doc