by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Today we have a guest blog by reader Ian McKee who goes by the handle 45Bravo. He tells us about some bits and pieces he is working on.
If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me at blogger@pyramydair.com.
Take it away, 45Bravo.
Quick Shots
by Ian McKee
Writing as 45Bravo
This report covers:
- The like-new S&W 79G
- Refinishing the Crosman MKI/MKII and a test
- SIG Airgun Stuff — good news
- SIG Airgun Stuff — bad news
- Postscript from BB
This report is going to be a little different, instead of a detailed report, it will be just a few short updates on things that I have learned, and what is coming up.
The like-new S&W 79G
A few months back I reported on a like-new Smith & Wesson 79g I had bought. I have decided that pistol deserves to be in the possession of a collector, not a shooter like me.
A TIP — if you have never noticed, on some of the Smith & Wesson 78G and 79G boxes, it is actually printed as having a box of cartridges and 250 pellets or a sampler pack (like this one) or nothing printed on the box, when it only included the pistol.
This older box shows the full 5 CO2 cartridges and a 250-round tin of pellets.
The newer box for the like-new S&W 79G indicates a sample pack of CO2 cartridges and pellets.
Refinishing the Crosman MKI/MKII and a test
I have 2 Crosman pistols that need refinishing, and a friend sent me 3 more to do for him.
One of his custom pistols is already stripped to the bare metal, and he likes the look, but it keeps dulling because of no protection from the air. His gun will be finished using clear Duracoat aerosol finish. Brownells sells many types of products and parts for gun enthusiast of all types.
One of my pistols has more metal showing than paint. I intend to strip it and refinish it using Brownells-Aluma Hyde CLEAR finish. The other guns will be refinished with other colors of the same products. I want to test how easy the 2 products are to use, and how well the finishes stand up to use.
A friend likes the look of his silver Mark II, but the aluminum keeps dulling from exposure to the atmosphere.
SIG Airgun Stuff — good news
For those of you that have belt-fed SIG airguns, I am sure you have experienced the issue with having a few good shots, then having one flier spoils the group. Well, there is hope. The belts do come apart very easily. You could rearrange the belt pieces until you have an entire belt that groups well. It just takes time finding and replacing the chambers that are causing the fliers, and removing them from the equation.
The Sig belts come apart, which means the chambers that cause accuracy problems can be removed.
This detail of the black pellet chambers shows the lips that overhang the metal loops, keeping the belt together.
The belt pieces are asymmetrical, so make sure you have them all oriented the same way when re assembling them or you will have feeding problems.
As you can see, the links are asymmetrical and the lips that overhang are only on one side.
If a link is flipped like this, the belt will not function and feed properly.
SIG Airgun Stuff — bad news
A friend brought me a SIG ASP 226 CO2 pellet pistol he had obtained through his work. It had been used as a display in a retail sporting goods store, and at some point in time, a safety conscious employee had “deactivated” it by drilling out the co2 piercing pin.
Sig ASP 226 sporting CO2 pistol.
The valve design is very simple, and is a cartridge design that is easily removed for replacement or service.
Here is a look at the valve of the ASP 226 pistol.
I have tried contacting SIG’s airgun division about buying the parts to repair the air gun, through several different channels, eventually talking with one of the reps I had met at the Texas airgun show in 2018.
SIG will let you buy almost any part for their firearms (except the serialized frame) online. The airguns, however, are an entirely different animal.
You have to get an RMA (Return Merchandise Authorization) and send the airgun back to SIG. If it is in warranty, they will assess if it needs to be repaired or replaced.
If it is out of warranty, or the problem is not related to materials or workmanship, you will be contacted about the cost of repair/replacement, and they will proceed accordingly.
I asked how I could become an Authorized Service Center for SIG airguns, but all airgun service is done in house, or from the manufacturer that built the guns for SIG.
As much as we hate to believe it, a LOT more replica airsoft guns are sold worldwide compared to replica pellet/BB guns.This is partly because of some countries laws restricting airguns that fire metal projectiles, and in other countries, the parent’s perception that a plastic projectile is less dangerous than a metal one.
Over the years, I have either owned or worked on guns from almost every airsoft manufacturer, I have scoured the many airsoft manufacturers, looking for airsoft companies that produce guns with a similar valve design, but at this point in time, I have come up empty.
I THINK, Sig has contracted with a company to produce their licensed designs exclusively for them.
While I like SIG firearms and some of their airguns, and own a couple, I am seriously reconsidering any future SIG airgun purchases because of this policy.
SIG publishes the numbers of “tested to 15,000 rounds”. For some owners that is a lifetime of shooting. For other owners, that number of rounds could be 3 months of shooting with the family in the back yard.
A couple of years ago, SIG introduced the ASP 20 break barrel air rifle, it made a big splash, and was well reviewed by almost everyone. As of now, if your SIG ASP 20 breaks, the gun is no longer in production, and SIG will not repair or replace it since it is out of warranty, and there are no parts available to the public to repair it. You now have a wall hanger
I would like to hear what you readers think about the closed service system for their airgun repair.
Ian
Postscript from BB
This bits-and-pieces guest blog dovetails into tomorrow’s historical blog for the weekend. It’s an airgun we haven’t yet covered.
That linked chamber on the right side of the top ling pictures sure looks squished up and out of round.
Halfstep, I believe, mentioned that not too many 1911’s shoot that great without some work being done to them and it reminded me of a shooting session I had with a Stainless Steel Colt Enhanced 1911.
There was a steel plate down range that was intended to be used as a rifle target. Not too far. but definitely not close. I fired three times and and my friend said I missed ! But I heard three hits. “You were shooting too low and hit the ‘T’ post holding up the target three times”. 🙂 As far as I know the only enhancements were external like the skeletonized hammer, beaver tail grip safety and wrap around grip. Could be wrong? You get what you pay for. I doubt a China made copy could do that. Actually surprised the hell out of me because I believed the same thing.
So If BB shoots better with a DOT sight you ‘gotta’ ask yourself, “Was it a fuzzy sight picture or fuzzy glasses?”
I wasn’t implying BB could shoot better with a lead sled rig only that it might confirm a bad barrel easier.
Sig probably does not expect too many problems with their airguns, especially like the one you encountered. And in the world of airguns we tinkerers are probably a minority. Dedicated perhaps but to few and far between. Not too cost effective, but a single sanctioned repair station that requests parts on a regular basis seems perfectly reasonable. Parts could be offered in batches to them.
Then again, there just may be enough people out there that can repair them for most of the ‘usual’ problems, seals and such.
Another thing. Look how long Daisy and Crosman have been pumping out airguns. There are probably tons of their airguns that need repair and they figured out how to keep customers happy. Probably still making a lot of the old parts today?
Bob M.
Actually, I spend a lot of time resealing vintage Crosman, Smith & Wesson, Daisy, and other airguns for people.
None of the major manufacturers currently stock parts for their obsolete airguns.
They sell the obsolete parts to gunsmiths, and airgunsmiths across the country, and let them as “Authorized Service Centers” repair the obsolete guns.
The available parts for antique and vintage airguns is going to dry up eventually.
There are a few companies that are making parts to replace the ones that are no longer available. (valve stems for Crosmans, and S&W guns, and lead seals for the soldered valves on old Benjamin/Sheridan guns, and other hard to find parts.
Ian.
45Bravo,
It is always a bummer when airgun companies will not stand behind their products.
For the piercing pin, could this part be made by a decent machinist?
Pity about the SIG ASP 20. I know that they had problems with one of the stocks that was much delayed.
Do you think that SIG sold a 1000 of them? Will they become collectors items? Do you think that SIG’s legal troubles in Germany may have played a part in the decision?
-Y
I have not heard about their legal troubles in Germany, I will have to look that up.
Ian
Hello. Just an update on my Gamo C-fs monstrosity… ( it’s cute: Ugly but interesting…)
The latest: The comb cut out, can get head right behind the sight now. ( no cheek rest yet..) A trigger guard! wow. I actually did it. Extra screw holding it all together. So there are two now… no duct tape. Safety, drilled out a slot. left side for use with thumb. Bar connector comes next.
Been shooting some 20m. Nothing exciting yet. Shoots well if I sit down. Out of 15 I got two bulls. 25mm. and grouping is ok. I’m not putting up a target pic till I get some consistent groups.
Oh I took the 2.5 mm dia wire spring out and put the 3mm one back in. Increase in noise. The 2.5 wire spring is actually really nice. It reaches out to 20m fine and it’s really quiet. The “Doink Slam” of the 3mm is bad and the gas ram is just insane. Why would you…
Hope you are all good! Robert.
RobertA,
Glad you are still at it. Thanks for the update. It is starting to look quite refined. 🙂
Chris
Chris: Hello! Yes and this is still the prototype! I have learned a great deal. Milling out wood with the router was a very special advancement. That alone made this project a dream. Thank you for the comment Robert. PS. Autumn is on it’s way here. The days are not so hot but the sun is warm, wind is cool. : – )
RobertA,
That’s looking quite nice! It doesn’t look very far from the aesthetics demonstrated by other aluminum skeleton stocks. It just needs a hamster in front of the trigger guard to complete it.
Siraniko
Siraniko, Greetings! I am still making this all up as I go along. As evolution/modification tends to follow parallel paths. You can end up with something that looks/works the same as some other project quite by accident. So in this project I am heading ( blindly ) into the “alloy skeleton frame” purely as it is the way forward in this area. But of course I use wood.. cheap and easy. Once I get the ergonomics sorted out and really feel like the design is mature I will try to make a second version for “eye pop” . Wood and polished metal. Maybe some brass etc. Lose the alloy. and the plastic. The major problem is this: the two screws on a 45 deg which hold the front of the stock on. How do I drill them in a wood blank so they meet the hole in the steel tube??? Without cnc I am scratching my head. The stock is a dream to shoulder. It really is pleasant. No neck craning, no shoulder scrunching etc. I could shoot all day with it. AND it’s still easy to cock the charging lever. Can do it holding the lever in left hand and pistol grip in the other and thats with the stock Gamo spring at the factory preload. ( I am still young* and have knuckle dragger arms… ) . Thank you for the comment! Best tool? The “Tom Gaylord scriber” which is a dental pick: end broke off. I can use it as a precision centre punch too! Have a nice day. : – ) Robert.
RobertA,
You are not the only one with that problem. I’m adapting an old unfinished wooden stock I found to my plastic stocked Webley. I’m having the same problem with the angled screws that fix the piston tube to the stock. Had to buy a chisel to do inletting work which I am going to do very slowly as I learn.
Siraniko
Siraniko. Nice! Hey that is almost exactly the same as the Gamo ( except it’s a barrel lever ). That plastic stock is almost the same… Must be the same factory ??? I guess. That 45deg hole is a kicker. Set it up in a drill press ? Do many many test drills first! Good luck!!!! Robert.
Siraniko, I have a plan! /blog/2021/03/quick-shots/#comment-472542 Robert.
RobertA,
It sure is looking good. Maybe you can do a guest blog when you are ready. Especially once you figure out the stock screws.
I would get some xtra long screws that fit. At least then you can get the angles pretty accurate.
Don
Benji : The wooden Webly rifle stocks in the picture above is SIRANIKO’s handy work! I have the GAMO one. : – ) Robert.
Ian,
I hope they just gave your friend that CO2 pistol. That way when he throws it in the trash, he will not feel bad about it. Can it be fixed? More than likely. Is it worth going through all of what it would take to have Sig fix it? No.
I am one of those who has never really been impressed with Sig Sauer. Of course I was comparing them to John Browning’s creations.
They hired Ed Schultz to help them make one of the best break barrel air rifles in the world. From what I understand, they did. The problem was it was too expensive for the big box stores and was actually as or more expensive than the true competition. It did not sell enough fast enough to suit their bean counters, so they dumped it. Of course, with the new military contract they needed to make room and shift personnel anyway, so they killed two birds with one stone.
I used to have a Sauer und Sohn. It was awesome.
Yes it could probably be fixed, but would be cost prohibitive.
Looking at the 5 valve components, the top most brass part is a small screen to filter out impurities that could get into the system from the Co2 area.
It fits INTO the top of the small silver colored stem, that is actually plated brass, that stem is the piercing pin that was damaged.
It then goes through the spring, then a seal, that supports it, and then through the face seal for the CO2 cartridge. (the 2 lower parts were also damaged during the “deactivation”.)
All I need is the silver piercing pin, the support seal, and the bottom face seal/cap that holds the lower components in the valve cartridge.
4 parts, with a total cost of probably $17 if bought individually, or using the cost of other co2 valves that are of a similar complexity, for a price guide, maybe $20 for the complete valve cartridge, plus shipping.
Changing the complete cartridge is easy, push out 1 pin, remove the slide, push out 2 pins that hold the valve cartridge in the frame, put the new valve in, and reverse the order.
5 minutes.
The valve itself would last for a long time if not abused as this one was.
Ian
Ian,
Thanks for all the little tid bits. Very interesting.
As for SIG/ASP20 and their service/parts policy. Not good. I will not be buying anything they put out.
With all the hype of the ASP20 when it first came out,… and then this,…..? I am sure this will leave a long lingering sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths.
Chris
Chris USA,
So this is different than when gunsmiths built one off or small batch runs?
I see this is the price we as a society pay for cheap mass produced things that sell most often in Big Box Stores. I for one salute SIGAIR for building the springer of the Century and trying to sell it to a group of mostly misanthrope basement dwellers.
shootski
shootski,
Hey! That’s terrified troglodytes, man!
BB
B.B.,
Call them what you will!
Horse to water?
Learn to fish?
LOL! IF it wasn’t so sad!
shootski
Good and useful stuff, Ian. As for the ASP20, think it is time for FM to close the chapter on it and move on from that quest – maybe to HW, as has been suggested by others in this fraternity. If one in .22 showed up and the owner were willing to let it go for a reasonable price, might spring (pun intended) for it, though not too keen on scope-only shooters. So, regretfully, appears the ASP20 has become the Delorean of air rifles.
I remember that one or two years ago B.B. made an introduction to an article that lead someone thinking SIG USA were mostly interested in firearms but they lacked interest in airguns. Certainly B.B. changed that paragraph in a second, stating that it was not meant to present such an opinion. Today’s post just seems that Sig Sauer is in another galaxy from Sig USA…
As usually I’m with R.R. on this one.
Has anyone had a Marauder with the synthetic stock?
What did you think about the fit and feel of the stock?
Brent
Brernt,
My .25 Marauder has a synthetic stock. I have the scope mounted high and the cheekpiece cranked up high. It fits very well, and it’s light!
BB
Brent,
I second B.B.’s comment. I have both stocks for mine. The synthetic is on the gun.
Don
I too have one in .25. It is a long and somewhat chunky rifle to look at,, but it fits well and shoots great with a fair range of pellets. I don’t own anything else, firearm or otherwise, with a trigger as good. I didn’t know triggers got that good, to be honest. I bought mine for hunting invasive nutria (think beaver with a possum tail) on a friend’s farm where he was being overrun by them. That .25 mrod has dropped several hundred and the gun has had so much farm use that the guts are starting to corrode from the salt air. I will buy another when this one is too worn out to repair.
Had I known Sig would stop supporting their products so soon, I would not have bought the ASP20. On the other hand, usually a quality air rifle will wear out their seals (either piston or breech) or the spring (gas spring in this case) will break. I just have to hope that an aftermarket gas spring can be found that will fit the compression tube or that the current spring lasts a very long time.
Fred formerly of the DPRoNJ now happily in GA
I too would not have bought my ASP20 had I known they would not repair it after warranty expired. My gun is only a year old! Maybe it has collector value but I’m just a shooter and I can only hope it lasts. Unless they change their policy I will not be buying any Sig product.
Deck
Deck,
I bet Vortek can come up with a repair or replacement for the gas piston. Besides that everything should be common and available elsewhere.
BB
B.B.,
Do you think the blueprints/digital files and any, specific to the ASP20, tooling are just going to be trashed?
shootski
shootski,
Not a clue. Are you looking to paper a room?
BB
B.B.,
At some point the SG ASP20 could resurface with greater automation in manufacture. The engineering shouldn’t be lost.
Some of the online commentary is inaccurate; SIG will face legal issues with 5 year warranty and not honoring it, the rifle is still being sold by SIG as I write this. Yes the clock is running.
FYI My .177 is in the low 15XX SN. If SIG shipped them in somewhat SN order that is a low production run. Just a guess/estimate the .22 might have sold ten times the .177 build number.
shootski
Shootski
My ASP20 in .177 has a SN beginning with two zeroes followed by a high 20XX. Have had it almost a year.
Deck
Decksniper,
Interesting that you bought a .177 rifle one year ago with a higher SN!
Did you buy it from PA, SIG, or elsewhere?
I bought mine directly from SIG.
I also noticed that had I waited a few days they started selling .22 caliber in wood. I suspect those may have been returned from retailers or the collapse of SIGAIR was a study in Chaos.
After shooting the first ten pellets i’m thinking that the .177 might just have been the right choice for me after all; shooting time, experience, and many pellets will prove that out.
I find it sad that so many traditional break barrel shooters claimed they might buy one and then never did. I can see in just those first ten pellets that many firearm shooters will never mater this rifle. I would be in the same boat coming from the DARKSIDE were it not for what I learned tangential about SPROINGERS from the Readership here and the Godfather of Airguns despite my Aversion toward them for so many years. Sadly SIGAIR marketing never figured out how to SELL the gun.
I believe you and I (and a few smart others) are going to enjoy The Break Barrel Of The Century for a long time. I believe there will be ways found to keep them running even if it is by the last and worst way; cannibalization.
shootski
Shootski
Got mine from PA. I wanted the .177 for more premium pellet choices since I only shoot targets with airguns. I should mention Sig replaced an M3 ring free of any shipping or repair charges in September. My rifle had locked up cocked. PA was not involved with the return. Once I provided Sig the SN there was no hesitation on their part. Hard for me to think they would say no to customer service now.
Deck
BB
Wondering if Sig is reading this blog.
Thanks!
Deck
Deck,
Let’s see. They disbanded their airgun group. Let their dedicated airgun engineer and marketing manager go. Stopped making an airgun that had been proclaimed worldwide as a classic new design.
Did I forget anyhing?
Now, do they read this blog? I think the people they had who used to read this blog are now working elsewhere and Sig is concentrating on the next government contract.
BB
I am very disappointed in SIG. I know that companies today are all about money, and enough is never enough. SIG has abandoned all of their customers who have purchased airguns and left them high and dry, no parts and no service. It’s inconceivable that SIG invested all of that time and money into manufacturing airguns just to trash the whole product line! I am aware that SIG firearms are highly regarded but this little snafu would make me rethink the purchase of any of their products. 🙁
Geo
BB
Sounds like they took a big financial hit with the ASP20 but they should back it if they care about their reputation. Word will get around to their competition too.
Thanks for this update.
Deck
B.B. Hello!
I have a question. Back story: Power plants for piston based rifles/pistols can be spring based with the possibly of a gas ram upgrade ( for those with the centre spigot in the piston…. no can do, right. ) . More piston based models are moving to the gas ram and bypassing spring power all together. So….
The question is this: What options are available for those who like tinkering? The gas ram is a dangerous beast and is not to be fiddled with AT ALL. But maybe it’s much too strong? What then? My personal experience was purchasing a gas ram from CustomAirSeals in Australia only to find it is MUCH too strong. I think I brought this up with customer service at CAS. and…sadly nothing came of it. I now have a $$$ paper weight that rolls off the desk…
What do you think? What can “tuners” do if they are walled off ( for very good reason ) from tinkering with power levels ??? Thank you! Robert.
Robert,
Too much power and you can end up with a nasty handling gun. If want power, you got to go PCP.
Chris
Chris: Exactly! I specifically put a thin spring in my springer and it was really nice. But to be honest I want to recover some of the money I spent on the gas ram and want to lower the power it. Not too much but at least back to what a stock gamo 3mm wire spring is. If I get 3mm wire spring FPS but with gas ram, I would be pleased. As it is the gas ram is MUCH too crazy power. Thanks! and there is no way they would take wallet moths in exchange for a PCP unit and all the gear… so I am stuck with my cool gamo for the long future! It is cheap to keep. : -) Thanks! Robert.
Robert,
This is an interesting question and I don’t have a ready answwer. Let me think about it for a bit.
BB
BB. Roger that, over.
I was wondering if the automotive gas strut regassing service might be an angle? it’s their bread and butter, but I would not want some novice messing around with high power strut, which our ones are. It won’t be taking prisoners if it all goes south. Thank you! : – ) Robert.
Robert,
I don’t know enough about the subect to comment. I understand what’s happening in theory, but that’s as far as it goes.
Sorry,
BB
BB. Thank you, I will do some research into the area and report back. Maybe a guest post ? Will keep you posted… Robert. : – )
Robert,
Good on you, lad! 🙂
BB
BB here is an email I sent to CustomAirSeals for your amusement.
Hey mate : – )
Hey yeah I bought the gamo gas ram off you a while back and was impressed by it’s power. So much that I stopped using it. Just too much THUMP. when shooting. Far out. I thought the ram was going to fire the whole barrel down range.
I think I sent you a mail asking about this and I can’t really remember what out come we had. Probably not a lot to say.
So I have a question: Can I get the ram degassed ? To lower it’s power??? Do you know about this kind of thing? Or someone who I can talk to about this?
the ram is a great invention but it’s waaaaaay to strong. If it was half the power I would love it. Thank you! Robert.
Hi
The power is fixed and can’t be altered. The current version is slightly lower powered than the first series. Thanks Laurie
So there you go, terse and not a lot to go on, but I will not give up. I have been told you can’t do this, that and the next thing, by professionals before and … well now and then they are actually not correct. First port of call I guess it finding out who makes these things. Then finding someone who will actually talk. Frankly I really don’t see this as too complicated a deal. It’s just a gas ram. Or is it? Robert.
Robert,
As I understand it some gas springs (which is what the industry call it) are adjustable and others are not. Those are built as non-maintainable sealed units. Can they also be degassed? Probably, but not with tools that are commen.
This is why I prefer coiled steel springs.
BB
Since an airgun’s gas spring is hand operated, I can’t think the pressure ranges are that far removed from automotive or industrial use cylinders. I would think your local strut repair service could advise if your cylinder can be degassed.
Paco,
As I understand it they talk in bar and are in the range of 300-400 psi.
BB
BB, If you have access to a lathe and steel wire you can make as many springs as your heart desires. In fact you could make the lathe too… but to make a reliable high pressure gas spring. mmm, it would be easier to make a PCP rifle from scratch really. I wonder what utility there is in the high power ones like we have in our rifles? Other sectors of industry might use them…. low power ones for sure. but ours are really strong. Springs are amazing! Right up there with the screw thread.Rugged, durable, reliable! Robert.
Hello. Here is a better overall view. You can appreciate how much lower the grip is from the bore line. and butt plate is even lower again. This is not good for trying to shoot prone ( fantastic for off hand ). So I will come up with some solution. Not sure what. Also the grip and the but plate assembly is to removable for stowage. As it is it’s pretty huge. Thank you! Robert.
RobertA,
Since you have already cut the stock why not attach to the sides instead of the bottom?
Siraniko
Siraniko. The alloy plate you can see on edge is screwed to the plastic. The wood is bolted to the plate. The grip is screwed to the wood. The but assembly is bolted to the wood. The plastic has the 45deg holes and the lever connector roller guides. So the plastic is the hardest thing for me to fabricate and ergo the last piece to get rid of. So far it works fine. Looks ugly though… Thanks! Robert.
Bob,
From my gathering,… you were trying for a bull pup design. It is my takeaway that traditional long guns are good for the bench,… but the bull pup concept is meant for quick, off shoulder fire.
The overall pic does help to see things better.
Chris
Chris: it is semi bullpup in this configuration. The grip is forward of the trigger group. I went with bullpup to reduce overall length. With the barrel and the lever way out front, it was too hard to hold a bead for long. The shorter the rifle the less “overhang” which you are trying to hold up. So in my case here I have reduced the overall by aprox 150mm AND pushed the grip forward. So it’s easier to hold it all up. Thanks! Robert. PS IMHO: Long guns are easy to stow, you can keep low, rest it easy on a rest etc. They are essentially the best compromise in most areas. But a hefty five foot long rifle is going to be tricky to hold up for a long time. It’s a bit like the difference between a Long bow and a cross bow…
RobertA,
“…it was too hard to hold a bead for long.”
That is what a correctly installed and used sling is for!
As far as your angle problem you may want to build a two dimensional TRY jig. Simplification of the problem into 2D and then adding the 3rd dimension work on occasion.
shootski
Shootski: A what? A sling? What the hecking darn is that ? My mother use to say “you better sling your hook”…. still havnae worked out that that means… PICTURES !!! and a TRY jig? I will have a look at that on the ‘tinter net for that. * time passes * Nope. Nothing comes up under “try jig” are you pulling my leg? Try the other one it’s got bells on it. We’ll need to see your ID, proof of residence, driver license, birth certificate, F.A.L and some PICTURES! Thanks! Robert.
RobertA,
https://jig.space/workshop.html
Start here, then ask more questions if needed.
shootski
Shootski: Oh Biathlon… I get it! shoot AND ski. right.
I am not sure what I am supposed to be doing with jig pro. I can hand draw pictures just fine. The problem is drilling a hole “blind” on a 45deg so that it lines up with a threaded hole in the main tube of the rifle. Gamo and Webley etc have this “feature”. It’s quite annoying. : – ) Robert.
RobertA,
I still think you can screw in some extra long screws. Then build a cross section of the stock even on a piece of stiff paper. Then hold it against the screws and mark the configuration of the screws on the stock cross section. That should alow you to mark the beginning of the holes on the stock. Then drill at the angle from the paper. If you don’t have long screws a snug fitting rod like the back end of a drill bit can be used.
Don
Benji, Well that could work if you were really accurate, I think Siraniko is going to find out the good old fashioned way, one way or another. Essentially This is a CNC thing. You need to be accurate in three planes and that is mighty hard to do “free hand” and even if you made drilling jigs etc you have to match up the hole drilled in two irregular shaped objects with no shared datum. The factory can CAD design CAM fabricate it and the kinks ironed out till its perfect. Then it’s all set up. For a one off with a drill press or even hand drill… it’s looking for a black cat in a dark room territory ! Robert.
RobertA,
Please don’t take my comments wrong, I often come across poorly.
Keep in mind these problems were solved before CNC was around.
You can break a three plane broblem into three individual two dimensional graphics as long as they all have a common reference point. Especially when you are defining a straight line. You do have to be accurate, I know because I have screwed up these problems more times than I like to admit.
If you are making the stock from scratch. Start with some scraps, blocks, of wood and just rout the fit on a small piece where it fits the tube. I think you are already thinking this way.
I know you already know this stuff. I am just hoping more heads are better than one. I also know that is not always the case.
Good luck, I like the way you project is headed.
I built a 100 psi valve that can get 500 fps with a pellet using a line to a shop compressor. I now would like to actually put the barrel and valve into a functional pellet gun. The valve is large so fitting it in the stock of the gun is what I am considering. I need a kick in the butt to get started, the project seems daunting at this point.
Don
45Bravo,
Ian, thank you for another informative and outstanding Guest Blog. Enjoyable read!
shootski
Benji, Hello! You are coming across very well, no problem there. Your opinion is valued! Thank you for getting involved! I am a newbie to all of this and find it quite absorbing on a technical, science and art level. ( Art is something that is created! Science is immutable, it is the law.* ) We are very lucky to have such a great blog to come together over. : – ) Sharing ideas and reading what our pole star Mr BB has to say keeps us steady and true! Now about drilling these holes. I reckon we could have an old fashioned duel to see who can actually drill the holes in the stock so they line up with the main tube threaded holes with the least complicated solution! and to make it even more entertaining we have to supply photographs as evidence. ( Success or failure! we show people our results.) Frankly I think it’s “too hard basket” but I am prepared to be wrong ! AND we owe it to Siraniko to come up with an easy way to drill those holes in his awesome stock so that they are right first time!!! l will eat my second best hat if you beat me! Robert.
Bob,
You have me a bit lost,… but I think I get the jist of it. Perhaps a pic of the screws installed in the action,…. top view (1) and side view (1). No wood in pics.
Chris
Chris usa. Hey, i am away from bench right now. ( AFB…) but i can try a verbal description, imagine we are using radio telephone… So the wood is usually attached at the grip, and at the breech end. ( this is classic break and underlever springer design.) In some rifles the threaded hole for the screws, holding the wood to the metal is 90deg to the vertical, this is easy to work with, on others it is 45deg to the vertical, this is a real pita. Ok I will draw a picture! Back in a wee while. Robert.
Chris USA and all. This is a picture of the 45deg versus 90deg stock to tube screw diagram / schematic. It’s not a solution to the problem of drilling a new hole in a custom stock. It is simply for visualizing the difference between the 45 and 90 situation. Drilling a 90 degree hole to meet the hole in the tube is … not that easy but, the 45 one is a few degrees harder. ( sorry about the pun.) imho. Thank you! Robert.
Actually i have a solution: It is for someone who has fitting experience or has the will to learn. It is brief as you should have all the basic skills to do a drill press or machining work set up. Also safety! Wear specs.
1 ) screw a 6mm Threaded Rod (TR) to the Main Tube. (MT). 2) Clamp TR in the drill press chuck. 3) Clamp MT to the drill press bed. Make sure the wooden stock can be fitted. 4) Remove TR from the drill chuck. ( the work is now set up to be drilled. It is in the correct place and is clamped properly. ) 4) Install wooden stock. 5) Drill pilot hole maybe 3mm. Do not drill past the wood. 6) Check the stock hole lines up with the MT hole. ( do not remove the MT or wood from the drill press! ) 7) Drill correct hole. 8) Spot face with end mill or drill large enough to take the screw head. ( You will need a thick washer in there when assembling) . 9) repeat for other side. You do need a decent non wandering drill press/Knee mill and all the right clamps etc. Set up is crucial. : – )
Bob,
Looking at all the drawings, you look like you have some pretty good ideas. The screws look to be just upwards angled. I was curious as to if the were only upwards,… but (also) forwards or rearwards angled. It looks like they are not.
Keep at it,……. Chris
Chris USA, more than one angle ???? That would make life very difficult indeed. I am pretty sure Siraniko would not be happy with that! Yes only one not 90deg angle. The idea i guess is to pull down and to the side at the same time. So 45 does this. But it’s super vexing to drill after the fact. Unless its in THE drilling jig that the factory made. OR you have all the right gear to do it. Then you can do anything! Robert.
RobertA,
I have no art or music skills. They run in my family, but I missed the boat. Your work is showing aesthetics in form follows function. I spent much of my pre-retierment career doing 3d computer modeling, but I learned more from a coworker that is a sculpturist, he taught me a lot. He told me I needed to learn computers even though he was a pencil and paper guy or really ink and mylar. He did his work and mine for months while I learned how to program and model on a computer. He was earning less than me; I can never pay that back.
Your drawings remind me of his.
Don
Benji, Wow. Thank you for sharing. I have been lurking around the internet for a while and I started to meet retired people who were actually getting a kick out of reading, looking etc at things people write or post in blogs. For some of those people they like details and lots to read. So I do my best to come up things that may interest. Paying people back does not necessarily mean that person in particular. If you help someone then you can consider you ARE paying it back. Thank you for you kind words. I am a serial doodler and design things in my sleep. I am the son of an architectural draughtsman who transitioned from paper to digital all on his own He bought PC’s and AutoCAD when it was brand new. So drawing stuff which can be built is on my blood. I have stepped back a bit from making super accurate drawings to making sketches. I like it. If a line is not straight well, just pretend it is! Have a nice day. : – ) Robert.
Sorry for getting so excited out this : – ) Here is a basic diagram of how to set up the main tube in the drill press so it’s stock screw hole is located properly. To drill the hole you need to fit the stock to the main tube. While it is clamped. Oh you need to spot face before drilling! ( use an end mill to do this. ) The spot face cuts the flat so the drill will not slide off. You can centre punch too if you can get in there. Thanks! Robert.
RobertA,
I’m going to be sweating bullets all the way on mine as that I only have a hand drill to do the job with. Inletting job will have to be done first though to thoroughly bed the cylinder to the stock. Still have to sharpen the chisel I bought to do the inletting job. Too many thing to do at the same time.
Siraniko
Siraniko, I feel your pain! I would really suggest you do not try this out out on your good stock! Do some test holes first on scrap. All that work! There is no easy way with hand tools. GOOD LUCK !!!! Robert. PS. Go and make friends with someone who has a kneeMill. They are simply amazing. : – )
RobertA,
I had to look up what a knee mill was. I’m afraid I don’t know anyone with one. The relative good news about this project is that the fore end is relatively square so it will be easy to use blocks of wood for practice before I commit to drilling on the actual stock. I’m taking things very slowly. I would not be surprised if it takes a year before I get confident enough to drill the holes.
Siraniko
Siraniko, you are in a bit of a pickle then. And pickle is good. I kept the plastic stock of my gamo for this very reason! It was easier to cut all the chaff off and square it all up and build on that than it was to make two 45deg holes! I think some young bucks here have not the faintest just how difficult those two holes are to get right! Smile.jpg I did a basic machine operator course and got the low down on what you can do with a real kneemill. You can do some wild stuff if you really push it. The secret sauce is holding work, using the chuck to line up, and order of operations. I am no old hand at this, I just looked a bit harder than some at the possibilities of a fully manual machine. They are indispensable for precise work. Yes a file, hand saw and hand drill will do amazing things but it stops at speed and accuracy. Those plastic stocks would have been CNC milled alloy moulds. They can do anything on any angle. We mere mortals … well we have to work around this. Take your time! We all wish you luck! Robert. : – )