by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Diana 27S.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
This report covers:
- Two accuracy tests
- Today’s test
- Sight-in
- Air Arms Falcons
- JSB Exact RS
- H&N Baracuda Match 4.52mm head
- RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle
- Discussion
- Summary
It has taken me 6 reports to get to the first accuracy test of the Diana 27S. I think that’s a record. But the way it was shooting before was too rough and I wouldn’t have wanted to shoot it for any length of time. I’m glad I waited for the parts to arrive and did the job right.
Two accuracy tests
There will be two different accuracy tests. Today I’m shooting the rifle with the open sights it came with. Next time I will mount a Diana peep sight and test it again with that. Today will be at 10 meters. Next time I’ll back up to 25 yards.
Today’s test
I shot the 27S off a sandbag rest at 10 meters for today’s test. I started shooting with the artillery hold, but I soon noticed how smooth the rifle was shooting, so I switched to resting the stock directly on the sandbag. Only one target that you will see in today’s report was shot with the artillery hold.
I shot both five- and ten-shot groups, so I will tell you the count for each one as we go. Before I started shooting I read the last accuracy test of the Diana 35 that I tuned last year. I figured that since these two air rifles have the same maker, the same .177 caliber barrel and similar power, the best pellet for the 35 would be a good place to start.
Sight-in
I was shooting with the open sights that came with the rifle. They might be off a little, but unlike an optical sight they should at least be somewhere on the paper. So I started shooting right from 10 meters. It took 4 pellets to get on target where I wanted to be.
Air Arms Falcons
The first pellet was the same one I used to sight in — the Air Arms Falcon. The first target was ten shots using the artillery hold. This is the only group in this report that I shot using the artillery hold.
Ten Air Arms Falcon pellets went into 0.675-inches at 10 meters. It’s pretty obvious that I had an aiming problem with one of the ten shots, because nine of them are in a round group measuring 0.303-inches between centers and that lone shot is above and separated from the group. Seeing that prompted me to try resting the rifle directly on the sandbag, which worked so well that I completed the test that way.
This first group of 10 Falcons convinced me to try resting the rifle directly on the sandbag. The group measures 0.675-inches between centers, with 9 in 0.303-inches.
I guess the sight-in wasn’t as precise as I thought. I adjusted the rear sight up three clicks and shot again with the rifle rested on the bag. This time 10 pellets went in 0.384-inches at the same 10 meters. From that I decided to rest the rifle on the bag for the remainder of the test. The rifle still shoots to the left but I can accept that.
This group of 10 Falcon pellets was shot with the rifle resting on the sandbag. It measures 0.384-inches between centers.
JSB Exact RS
Now I switched to JSB Exact RS pellets. I figured they were enough like Falcons that they could do well in the 27S. Ten went into 0.535-inches. Not quite as good as the Falcons.
Ten JSB Exact RS pellets went into this 0.535-inch group at 10 meters.
The RS pellets also hit the target below the center of the bull, so I raised the rear sight by three clicks and shot a second 5-shot group. That one measures 0.411-inches between centers. And it’s nicely centered.
Five JSB Exact RS pellets went into 0.411-inches at 10 meters. The sight adjustment was perfect!
H&N Baracuda Match 4.52mm head
Next I tried five H&N Baracuda Match pellets with 4.52mm heads. They are really too heavy for the 27S. but I wanted to see how they would do.
Actually they didn’t do too bad. Five pellets went into a group that measures 0.411-inches between centers. It is 4 inches above the aim point though, and 0.7-inches to the right. Given how well Falcons do, I didn’t pursue this one any further. That would have meant adjusting the rear sight too much.
Five H&N Baracuda Match pellets with 4.52 mm heads went into 0.411-inches at 10 meters.
RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle
The last pellet I tried was the 8.2-grain RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle wadcutter. Five of them went into 0.54-inches at 10 meters. They also went high, though only 2 inches above where I aimed.
Five RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle pellets went into 0.54-inches at 10 meters.
Discussion
The 27S shoots beautifully. It hasn’t got a hint of vibration, though it does slide backward about an inch when it fires. Even though I rest it on the bag I still hold it very lightly.
The open sights are not very precise. I am hoping to do better when I mount the target sight on the rear.
The gun is as powerful as I want. Actually it’s a bit too powerful. I prefer the older model 35 that’s about 40 f.p.s. slower and 6 lbs. lighter to cock. But that one can’t accept a peep sight and this one can. So we’re not done yet.
Summary
The lube tune was a complete success. The rifle is now smoother to cock and much smoother to shoot. The power came back when I replaced the breech seal, but this light lube tune with Tune in a Tube changed the rifle’s personality completely. Twenty-five yards next!
B.B.,
Why do you think the heavy Baracuda pellets shot 4 inches high? Were they a loose fit?
Nice shooting.
Don
Don,
They take longer to clear the barrel and it rises in recoil during that time.
B.B.
B.B.,
I have been thinking about this question(s) since my first read of the blog on Friday!
As I am the first to always admit, I don’t really know much about shooting Spring Piston powerplant airguns, but 4″ high at 10 meters rested on anything, hand, sandbag, competition rest, bipod, or sticks, is almost beyond my comprehension. Especially after you have said you like how your tune has made this rifle shoot. I realize you said, “They are really too heavy for the 27S. but I wanted to see how they would do.” Okay so far; but did the rifle noticably react in recoil to the heavier pellet and how bad subjectively was it? Is this reaction to an overweight pellet the norm for all Spring Piston power plants?
shootski
shootski,
No, that much offset it isn’t the norm. However, this rifle does move backward a full inch in recoil because I hold it on the bag loosely. It is my guess that the movement, coupled with the much lower velocity, is what is causing that pellet to hit high.
I don’t remember feeling anything odd about the shot cycle when that pellet was fired and I was watching for those things, so I would have noticed it.
I can tell you this — in firearms, when you shoot heavier bullets at slower velocities they often do hit significantly higher because they are still in the barrel when it starts to rise in recoil. This could be something similar.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thank you!
Great reply to the GAS gun shooters question!
Yes I have seen reloaders not understand the need for a faster pressure rise on the propellent burn to get comparable results with a heavier bullet’s POI.
It drives them crazy to be told to shoot a faster MV to hit lower!
With my PCPs i find adjusting striker (hammer) spring preload to be the first change to make along with an increase in gas pressure as the next step.
But! As you well know you need a CHRONOGRAPH for that!
Thanks again Tom!
shootski
Shootski,
I had the TX200 and Walther LGU, both in .22 and shot them plenty. Could I tell a difference between a lighter vs heavier pellet? Not really. Gunfun1 has shot plenty and shoots a lot. He claims to very clearly feel the difference. Like BB said,… time spent in the barrel on the way to exit. Personally,… I will never go back to being a hard core springer guy. PCP’s are just too nice and so much easier to shoot well.
However,… I sincerely admire those that are hard core springer shooters. It does take a special talent and perseverance.
Chris
ChrisUSA,
See my reply to B.B. above; it isn’t just Springer shooters that are impacted by the effect. I was just wondering about the amount of rise and if a the 27S showed indications beyond the large POI shift.
shootski
Shootski,
Not that I need to educate you on springers, or guns in general,… but this is a link that I always try to provide to someone new. Scroll about half way down and there is an illustration (dynamic), interactive, piece that might help to visualize the springer dynamics. The (whole) link is excellent (in my opinion) for anyone new to air gunning.
http://www.arld1.com/
Chris
ChrisUSA,
Actually, “Not that I need to educate you on springers,…” I am gathering information on those newfangled Springers all the time! I keep bouncing back and forth because of the perceived convenience ascribed to them. “Just pick her up and put a couple of Pellets in your pocket and go hunt…” Then m brought back to reality by factual reporting and my purchase urge gets tamped down yet again.
I enjoyed the link! You are correct every new Airgunner should have a look.
shootski
Shootski,
Yea,… for a pick up and go with minimal hassle,… springers are the ticket. As you know,.. PCP’s are not much hassle either,..but most can’t get past the expense to get started proper. It’s all a matter of trade-offs. Good luck on finding one that you would be happy with. When you find it,.. let me know.
Yes, that is a good link. I think that many air gunners that “think” they know it all might find some good reminders and/or maybe some “re-clarification” on what they think they know.
I do not know if you played with any of the articles,…. but many are interactive. You can change stuff in real time and see the immediate change and other ones allow you to input new data and then see the change. Pretty cool. And,… it is all dumbed down enough that most any new gunner should learn a lot very quickly. I discovered it after I had been in the game awhile but wished I would have seen it sooner.
Chris
BB
Just wanted to let you know I got the trigger screws I sent you years ago today that you used in the hatsan springer quattro trigger adjustments. I really did not expect you to return them to me but thank you for doing so.
I do read your blogs every night but just lurk otherwise so keep up the good work as I enjoy the reports on the new and old guns equally as well.
BD
BD,
I’m so sorry I took so long to return them.
B.B.
BB
Not a problem at all.
BD
Hi Buldawg76,
Nice to see you post – hope all is good with you!
Hank
Hey Vana
Doing good all thing considered. Health is being a roller coaster these days but I believe I got it on the run finally.
Hows everything with you and yours. Still enjoying semi retirement or have you gone full retirement now.
BD
Buldawg,
Glad you are still following the reports. I miss your valuable contributions to the blog.
Don
Benji
I may try to start back posting some as time continues. Getting some things back under better control so life is better.
Its good to know I am missed.
BD
BD,
Yea, you were missed. You have a pretty good knowledge on modding stuff. I always found your information to be spot on and well researched. The rest of us just gotta keep you and gunfun from turning the blog into a hot-rod forum! LOL! 😉
Chris
Chris
I have missed you all as well, just been a rough few years. I admit I hang out on the GTA forum for the most part nowadays and it has really expanded my knowledge and ability to mod my guns greatly. I am one that can never leave well enough alone or ever be satisfied with a stock gun or vehicle for that matter. Everything can always be made better than the manufacture sells it IMO.
I will try to post here more often as I can in the future.
Good luck with the hot-rod thing, we are just two peas in a pod in that respect. LOL Gearheads for life is all I can say.
BD
BD,
“Everything can always be made better than the manufacture sells it IMO.”,… that is what I have always thought too and is a big part of why I have stayed with this. I have not done much of anything in the way of modding as of late.
If you are ever interested in a .25 M-rod in full RAI furniture with a FAB defense 6 position,… let me know. The Red Wolf has me spoiled and the M-rod is just collecting dust. It is set up nice. Real nice.
Chris
Chris
You mean like this Brod.
BD
BD,
OHHH!!!,…. I see!,… it’s gonna be like that ehhhh? You gonna 1 up me ehh? 😉
Still,… I think you need another. The butt looks like a std. UTG. Not sure I care for the tank. My pistol grip is way better. Yup,… mine is way better looking. Plus, I have a matching fore grip mounted,… with pod.
Chris
Chris
Nope not trying to one up ya bro, just did not know if you remembered I was building one of my own years ago out of mostly the same parts. Yep cheap UTG butt stock but I spent my money where you cannot see it. Inside it has a Don Cothran powerhouse balanced valve with a marmot militia hammer forged barrel from Jim Gaska with .220″ ports from valve to barrel. You might not like the bottle look but I bet you would like the 70 plus shots at 60fpe with a 6# stock hammer spring and cocking with your pinky. Shooting 33.95 at 850 fps at mid power and has a new Ninja adjustable regulator that can be adjusted from 1500 to 2700 psi on the fly without degassing at all whether you are going up or down in set pressure. It will sling the 33.95 at 1000fps for 75 fpe with just a twist of the reg pressure wheel.I have it turned down for good power to shot count balance filling from 4300 psi down to the 1800 set pressure. I need to paint the bottle black to make it look better and blend in more one day.
Our club has just joined the US air rifle benchrest organazation and will be holding official long range benchrest competitions soon so need an reliable 100 yard gun.
Its heavy and by no means a hunting gun but with the added weight of the bottle up front it has virtually no barrel rise and just sips air at 60fpe. Its about like a 177 mrod in muzzle report as its tuned now.
Just showing what can be done with the lego guns that crosman makes nowadays.
I am envious of your red wolf myself and have its little brother in a red laminate stocked CZ 200 AKA air arms S200 .
I have an addiction that is out of control and do appreciate you trying to help me with it by teasing me with another tactical mrod. LOL
BD
BD,
Thank you for refreshing my memory. I do recall now. Sounds like a super gun for the long range competition. See?,… that right there. That is what I missed. You have that type of knowledge that can be applied across a wide variety of air guns. Not only something specific like that,… but applying those same concepts/theories to other applications.
It’s good that you were able to learn so much on GTA and other sites while you were fighting non-sleep issues. A hard price to pay, but at least you have taken something good away from it. Glad you are doing much better on the sleep front.
Chris
Chris
Go to bottom, out of room.
BD
Chris
Go to bottom, out of room.
BD
BD76,
Wasn’t this the one you were building to beat/match those expensive air rifles on the range?
Siraniko
Siraniko
Yep that’s the one. It took me awhile to get it all sorted out since the cothran valve work different than a conventional valve does in that it is super easy to open and uses the HPA in the reservoir to assist it in closing faster than a conventional valve can. It is tuned with varying the pressure versus the hammer strike so works best regulated since unregulated it has a very narrow band where it makes gobs of power but once the HPA source is outside the sweet range the valve either will not open from hammer strike energy or goes into machine gun mode and empties the reservoir completely.
It really is designed for a full power style of gun but can be used for moderate power if regulated. I actually have the transfer porting from valve to barrel choked down some to get better shot count versus full power. It has a full .250″ exhaust throat out of the valve that I have reduced down to .220″ .
It will shoot sub 2 MOA at 100 yards if i do my part very easy. never did get a chance to show up those RAW air guns though.
BD
BD,
GTA is good. Lot’s of real good stuff and good peeps. I find my tolerance for endless blog research is somewhat limited. I hit it heavy for a few when Cobalt was tutoring me on the 499 Red Ryder spring mod.. Which,… by the way,… turned out totally awesome. That sucker is a high powered bb tack driver.
Chris
Chris
Recently in the last few years I have not had the luxury of sleep much if at all most nights so i pass my time on the GTA learning and digesting all things air gun related to keep my mind from self imploding from sensory overload and total exhaustion.
There is so much knowledge and talented people on their that one could never stop learning in the span of a lifetime and then some. i have always been one to believe that knowledge is power and the one thing that no one can ever take from you no matter how hard they try to break you down.
Its just how I am wired I guess and that i cannot change.
BD
Buldawg76,
Just on hot -rod, found this and it seams to fit.
Mike
Mike
I agree 100% they just can’t rake a joke very well can they. If they did not have radios and helicopters they would be more humble I bet.
But officer i never saw you behind me since I was concentrating on what was in front of me, I think you need a faster car to get my attention probably will not go over real well. LOL
BD
BD,
No, that approach never ends well, best bet is “yes sir, here is my license and registration” and leave it at that.
Mike
Mike
Yea I learned that many years ago with my lead right foot. Although back in my street legal dirt bike days we did play cat and mouse with the local cops but there was a lot more wooded land and escape routes available for us to hide from them and their cars did not go off road very well. Then of course they figured out where we lived and would be waiting for us in our driveways.
BD
BD,
You sound like that bunch that lived outside of Richmond. They would not bother to license their motorcycles. The man would get after them and they would hit the trails through the woods to the dirt roads and be gone.
Yeah, your input has been missed around here.
That M-Rod sure looks like something only a parent would love, but looks aren’t everything. Purdy is what purdy does and it sound like it is right purdy. It is hard to beat those RAWs though. 😉
As for that Quatro trigger, I have one that I am finally getting around tuit and the trigger could use a tune up. What size screws are those?
Drop in more often. I need more humbling.
B.B.,
What role did the missing trigger spring guide play once it was replaced? The rifle was apparently able to function without it before. Without it the trigger cage spring season allowed to kink. Was the cocking smoother with the guide in place?
Siraniko
PS: Air Arms Falcons 3rd paragraph 1st sentence: “I guess the sighty (sight) -in wasn’t as precise as I thought.”
Siraniko,
I believe that powerful spring is needed to make the trigger function with the anti-beartrap.
Fixed the misspelling. Thanks!
B.B.
BB,
Aren’t these old ladies so sweet? This is I believe why I like them so well. They were built when accuracy was the goal, not how fast you can make the pellet go through the air. “What good is 500 FPE if you can’t hit what you are shooting at?”
I am looking forward to how this old gal does with the peep.
BB,
Fine shooting. Looking forwards to the peep/25 yard test.
Chris
B.B.
Nice report on an even nicer rifle. 25 yards here we come….
-Y
I’m betting on the same size groups at 25.
BB
Is the rifle balanced on bag near the trigger guard? Or does most of the rifle contact the bag?
Like some other readers I love these Diana springers. I can hardly wait to see what you can do with a Diana peep mounted.
Deck
On the subject of peep sights, does anyone has a recommendation for use in a HW30S?
Henry
Henry,
Vintage Feinwerkbau rear aperture sights show up on the big auction site all the time for $100 plus shipping or sometimes even with free shipping. That seems true for vintage Diana peep/aperture sights, too. I think both are excellent values at those prices, and you should be able to get most if not all of your money back if you choose to sell them down the road.
That said, I am no expert in that field, so if anyone disagrees strongly . . .
Michael
Thanks Michael, I will be on the prowl for one of those. Meanwhile, does anyone have experience with the Daisy Avanti Dipter Sight?
/product/daisy-match-grade-avanti-precision-diopter-sight?a=1212
Henry
Henry,
I hope someone besides me chimes in on the Avanti, because I already expressed my bias above for the FWBs and Dianas. I have an Avanti, too, and it is quite good, especially given it has the rubber hood, which is usually not thrown in with vintage peeps (although I think all are compatible with them). Without looking, and mine is in winter storage, I do not remember if the Avanti has threads for a sun shade tube in the front. I believe FWBs do have that, and you might even look for one that already has that included, although they can be purchased separately. I don’t know about the Dianas in that regard, as the one I have is also in storage at the moment. So, the Avanti is very nice and has the rubber hood while most FWBs and Dianas will not have that. The FWB and perhaps the Diana will have the possibility of using a glare tube in the front.
The FWB and Diana will retain all or most of their value as you own them; however, whereas the Avanti will drop in resale value to $35 to $40 the moment you open the package.
But again, others should share their thoughts.
Michael
Henry,
FWIW, the AIr Venturi appears to be very similar to the Daisy Avanti for $10 less. /product/air-venturi-rear-sight-micrometer-adjustable?a=3191
Michael
Henry
Yes, I have a Daisy Avanti peep mounted on my HW30s. It works well with the globe front sight inserts that come with the rifle. I have switched from peep to scope and back several times. Accuracy is about the same using either if the target and light conditions are good at 25 yards. A scope adds weight but is more target versatile. Take your pick.
Deck
Henry
I used the one that came with my Crosman Chalenger 2000. It is the same as the Daisy and if you look you will see that it is also the same sight as the Air Venturi but the AV is $10 cheaper.
I have used it in competition and found it to be every bit as good as the ones on the FWBs that I also shot at the club I belong to. I don’t think you will be disappointed. On the other hand, the front globe sight that is from the same maker will take the metal inserts used by FWB but not the plastic ones,, or, at least, that was true of the one I bought 10 years ago.
Ed
Henry_TX,
Peeps on STEROIDS!
You should check out this companies sights and other stuff: https://gehmann.com/english/products.php
Lots of good information with each Item and multilingual Owner’s Manuals for detailed information.
shootski
Thanks everyone, I will report on what I found out.
Henry
Henry,
If cost is a concern, go with the AV.
If you do not mind dropping a few bucks, go with one of the antiques. Like was said, they hold their value and are really well made. I just picked up a FWB for my grandson’s HW30.
If you want a really well made peep that you can leave as is, add hood, change apertures, etc., take a serious look at this one. They are real nice.
/product/airforce-adaptive-rear-target-sight-fits-most-10-meter-3-position?a=2237
B.B.,
This seems to be quite the “pellet insensitive” air rifle. With everything you feed it this 27S is more or less accurate. Other than something like the TX200 or classic 10 meter air rifles, that seems to be pretty rare.
Michael
Michael,
Yes, I noticed that, as well. I like that in an airgun. Don’t you?
B.B.
B.B.,
On the subject of “like” and this Diana, I very much like how this looks like an FWB with that end on the forearm.
Michael
B.B.,
As RidgeRunner has already said, “I am looking forward to how this old gal does with the peep.” I love seeing reports on these old classics. New airguns are cool, but for different reasons (good design, novel use of materials, etc.); yet these wood and steel guns bring back memories of the “good ol’ days” for me (and make me miss my old RWS 45). And I’m really happy to see she shoots so well without even using the artillery hold. =>
Looking forward to the next accuracy test,
dave
Some good results there. My own 27 shoots a variety of RWS and H&N pellets well and as its a .177, I like using the match wadcutters.
I was trialling a .177 Model 25 earlier today which did not like Meisterkugeln and R10. They were quite loose in the bore. Good results eventually came my way with H&N FTT which gave nice, tight groups at 10 metres with open sights- no sight ramp on this 60 year old example.
Hi BB,
Very nice shooting there! Glad to see you are having fun with that Diana. They sure are nice.
Looking forward to the peep sight results.
Best regards,
Carel
B.B.,
Completely off subject, but as you are a professional writer, I think you will find this as puzzling and amusing as do I. I just typoed “peep” above as “peeep.” The correct options drop-down appeared and lacked “peep” but had the comparatively esoteric “epee,” complete with accent! Well, well. :^)
Michael
Michael,
You just reminded me of a question I had for B.B.!
Does the PA Blog Software provide the SPELLCHECKER for our posts or is our own keyboard linked Spelling MISCHECKER to blame for stuff happening to shootin’ words all the time?
shootski
Shootski,
An excellent question. I just compared my system spell checker with the one here. I believe my system checker is the one that applies to my typing. “Peeep” provides the same three correcting options here and in my e-mail compose box.
Michael
shootski,
Yes there is a spellchecker, but it’s part of your search engine. I use Chrome and its in the Edit file.
B.B.
It must be spring.
We got robins, gracks, killdeer, and today…BUZZARDS !!!
tt
TT,
Hopefully the Polar Vortex stays tight for a few more weeks! Otherwise a whole flock(s) of Flyers are going to experience a heavy losses Darwin demonstration.
shootski
We have flocks of Robins arriving daily. At this time they are seen in flocks but shortly will begin to pair off and begin nest building.
Ah, Spring.
I have a pent-up cluster of spring guns to pellet-match and sight in as well as the usual homeowner spring maintenance chores.
Finally, I’m going to spring for a hand pump from Pyramyd to finally defeat the PCP rifle that has been defeating me.
I guess that’s enough using “spring” in a sentence.
Dan
Shootski,
Quote:
” I have been auditing a Stanford University course on Fundamentals of Compressible Flow, Course Reader by Brian J. Cantwell. It is available on line as a PDF (BIG!) and everything I thought I knew about the Gas Laws, Aerodynamics, Lift and Drag is being turned on its head.
If the Airgun (all types of powerplants,) pellet, and bullet designers don’t have this level of knowledge then we are still in the Stone Age of Airgunning! I’m blown away by my ignorantia about a subject I thought I knew something about. The Math is really hard but the concepts taught would have made me a better student of Math. This guy makes the connection to the real world that none of my Math flunkies (full professors no less) never could. They were all Hacks! I now am beginning to understand how folks at the fringes of Airgunning keep talking about the ease of going supersonic with the proper design on valves, TP/nozzle(s), Barrel and projectile! The NO Sayers are full of it depending on the understanding of the Gas Laws of old. Full of assumptions in one or two dimensions instead of all applicable, to include time, to the point of being trivializations!”
Quite the statement,.. on many fronts. I am not sure how to even to formulate a question given the scope of your comment. None the less,…. I will make a meager attempt.
From what you learned, (or have begun to understand), what advances do you see possible for air guns,.. in a theoretical sense? You did touch on a few specific areas, (“valves, TP/nozzle(s), Barrel and projectile”),… but,.. can you shed any further [general] light into what changes to those areas might take form? Purely speculative,… of course! 😉
Chris
ChrisUSA,
The current ideas on gas flow is typically based on single dimension models. Occasionally someone may understand the 2D models that works in Airgun design. The assumptions that need to be made to make those models work is just breathtaking! I’ll give you an example of one of the myths busted by this course…you may know the discussion about air flowing over a curved airfoil (wing) needs to go faster than the air flowing under the mostly flat surface on the bottom side and that generates the LIFT that helps airplanes fly. Well that doesn’t happen that way! And this course proves it with some very complex Math and experimental proof. It has much more fine trained discussion about viscosity in the laminar flow(s) and the turbulence or lack thereof that the 1D and 2D models just use assumptions to overcome the actual empirical results that differ. That LIFT and DRAG as we practice today is almost totally based on assumptions on how it actually works. Lift and drag have a great deal to do with Balistics.
I have had to go back and dig out my Math books to get through the first few chapters and dust off my rememberer of the how’s and whys equations. Even that is stunning since so much of what my Math professors did was gloss over the real in-depth knowledge that could be had with just a bit more effort. They were all Plug-n-Chug types…not real Mathematicians, sigh!
I think most of what we have in airguns today is the basics mostly the result of gifted tinkerers who get close by, personal attained educational (for other careers) smarts, luck, and intuition. Not all too much KNOWLEDGE gets picked up out of the University level R&D knowledge by the production company’s designers because the bean counters just don’t see the €¥$¢ benefits! After all they are selling Toy Like BB guns!
Sorry that last was more RANT!
shootski
Shootski,
You almost lost me at “The current ideas,…”,… but I stuck with it. 😉
Never been a fan of assumptions myself. But,… if needed to make progress,… then ok. Even then,… at some point you would think that with those “assumptions” that were made,… some serious effort would be made to make them (factual),.. or at least understand them fully. Apparently from your point of view, that is not the case.
No doubt, you are looking at what you learned for applications far beyond air guns and related subjects. I will take away “LIFT and DRAG” from your comment. Should you care to expound on any air gun related applications with a more general/exact? specificity,… please feel free to do so.
Chris
ChrisUSA,
What if I told you Unread about a way to make an Airgun have an MV of 3,742.454 feet per second with a 500 grain bullet in my readings.
Does that get your attention?
shootski
Shootski,
Yes it does,…. it would get anyone’s attention! More specifically,.. I would think it would get the military’s attention and we (general public and air gunners) would not see any trickle down effects for the next 50-100 years. That IS? the way it works,.. is it not?
Again,… all incredible statements. Not even sure how to proceed with any further comment or question.
Here is an idea,… we should start a R & D company. You could be the CEO (aka: brain’s of the operation,… obviously) and I could be like Bugs Bunny in the cartoon where he is sitting besides a rolling munitions line and tapping the tops of each large projectile with a small hammer as they roll by? 😉 LOL! 🙂 I just so happen to be currently available.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJKcdlj-Uiw
If it fancies you at all,… keep throwing out a teaser or two in your future comments.
Thank you,…… Chris
TT,
I always have buzzards. My summer buzzards vacation in Florida and your summer buzzards must vacation here.
RR
Our buzzards leave in the first two weeks in November and return in the first two weeks of March every year.
They gather into big flocks then vanish or show back up.
They get to eat the winter kills or the road kills that the crows and eagles don’t finish off.
tt
Ah, The Road Kill Café. I guess it is good that somebody’s buzzards (vultures) hang around here in the winter. It would be mighty stinky come spring if not. There does tend to be a lot of buzzard poop.
RR,
A fellow I did some side job, yard work for, years ago, had huge walnut trees all across the the back side of his house. 200-300 buzzards were not uncommon,… so he said. I never saw them in person. The guy was straight up,.. so no reason to doubt it. Personally,… if that many of the scavengers showed up at my house and stayed around for any length of time,…. I would consider that to be a very BAD omen!
Chris
I got an email from Vortek that is announcing a new drop in air piston assembly that can be velocity tuned. Lists several popular springers as candidates for the new air piston. Didn’t see any prices though.
MMCM13,
Isn’t that what they had before,.. that BB tested,.. that did not work out so well? Or,… maybe BB tested just a gas piston/spring swap that was (non)-adjustable? I do not remember.
Chris
MMCM13
Hatsan gas spring guns are actually air rams that use the same fill probe that their PCPs use to pressurize the air springs so essentially the same concept as Vorteks air pistons. Hatsans use anywhere from 100 up to 135 bar in their rams depending on caliber of the guns.
BD
BD,
I knew the earlier ones were such, but could find nothing about the newer ones. Are they still that way?
RR
That’s a good question on Hatsan’s newer guns and I cannot answer it since i do not have one and only know the older ones were because someone from this blog sent me one of the older air rams year ago that i was going to see if i could fit onto a crosamn NP gun. Never got around to going anything with it but still have it.
Yes my brod is not what I would call purdy ny any means but that was not what I was after either with the build. I do like it in that it is solid and functional and in that sense is real purdy. It took awhile to get the gremlins out of it with the cothran valve before Rsterne got hold of one and did his thing as he always does, I just followed his lead and the gremlins stopped getting fed after midnight. It definitely is no RAW but holds its on quite well for the most part. I am still the loose nut behind the wheel though.
Yea in Cocoa Beach back in the 70s the local cops did not have much excitement on their daily shifts so we were just keeping their training skills sharp. Back then you could go from one end of town to the other and only have to cross side streets and we knew the trail like the back of our hands. So it was a game for both us and the cops to see who could outsmart the other. We had a habit of heading to one of our homes and pull into the garages shutting the door behind us with the cops on our tails. You back when you had to be caught in the act to be charged. That worked for several years till they finally got smarter than us and an officer sitting in each of our driveways with one in pursuit, can you busted. They actually did nothing to us but just let us know we no longer had anywhere to hide. Then the riding down the beach was a whole nuther story in its self. I miss those days for sure.
On the Quattro trigger tuning I actually gave BB some incorrect info on which screw dopes what in regards to tuning the triggers. Here is the best video i have found.
https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/how-to-adjust-the-quattro-trigger-on-your-hatsan-airgun/
If you need/want the screws BB just returned to me send me your email address either here or send it to me in a PM on the GTA at buldawg76 with your home address and I will send them to you
BD
I wondered that too. Surprised it wasn’t mentioned, but you never know what he might have up his sleeve.
Chris
Yea I have gained a lot of knowledge on the GTA from a few tuners that push the boundaries of air flow and its effects in our airguns such as “Shootski” alluded to above. I get lost in all the math for sure but can grasp the basic concepts and am a very good borrower of the shared knowledge they present for all to use.
If you go to the GTA and go to the gate titled ” Bobs and Lloyds workshop ” you will have access to more info than you could ever imagine was out there in one place. They get very detailed but also explain in laymens terms for us mere mortals to understand.
If you are unsure of some issues with a gun or curious if a modification can be done and how it may turn out the GTA is the place to research to find the answer. I will not say if its been done or thought about its in the posts of the GTA but its pretty darn close to the truth.
Yes sleep is finally coming back to me finally and welcomed with open arms.
BD
BD,
Yes,… I was very impressed with the wide array of topics and threads at GTA. Nothing cooking at the moment, (well,… I do have some hot chili on the stove for dinner),.. but other than that,.. no projects. I did see about a dozen squirrels this AM,.. all AM,… and plan to lay low for them in the mornings when things get a bit warmer. The Maximus Hunter has a 1/2-20 at the business end and the Hugget from the RW will plug on real nice. If I take cover in the shed,… they won’t even see (or hear) it coming. As a matter of fact,.. I do not think I have even tried the Hugget on the Maximus yet! Why? Don’t know.
Well,… there you go,…. now I have a project! 😉 Verify POI at range and blast away!
Chris
Chris
See I knew you would find a new project you needed to work on if I coaxed you enough. LOL Yea you do need to check the POI with the Hugget since it will not affect accuracy but mat change the POI slightly due to change in air flow ahead and behind the pellet during the shot.
Get you a warm belly full of chili and good hiding spot in the shed and let em have it. Then you can make some squirrel chili for the week ahead.
BD
BD,
Yea,… what you hang on the end does make a difference. The stock muzzle cap, a proper air stripper and a baffle insert unit all affected POI. The baffle insert did the best and is what stays on the Maximus.
There is always weighing and head sorting of pellets that can be done. At times, it seems to make a difference and other times not. Magazine can affect things, so in the purest sense,… use them with a shot tray and single load. Regardless of what I am loading with, I always prefer to go for sorted if I have the option. One less variable.
I find that heads will fall into 2 sizes in general and weight can vary twelve 0.1 units. I use an egg carton. I can put some in all 12 spots if I sort enough with the center spots getting the most. Like a bell curve if you will. Even then,.. I can shoot 5 or 10 from both extremes,.. but at least I know they are of the same head size and weight.
Shootski made a good point awhile back in that a .1 grain variance will matter much more in .177 than a .25,.. for example. His point being,.. to consider it as % of weight given the projectile weight.
Do you sort at all? I thought that you might when doing your FT matches and maybe if doing some long range work like 100 yards. I only have the .25 Pelletgage.
Chris
Chris
Yea i was referring mainly to differences in airflow ahead of and behind the pellet during the shot cycle changing POI, but anything that adds weight/ length to the barrel does and will affect the harmonics as well. Single shot versus mags as well make a difference, many variables for sure to consider.
I don’t nor ever have really sorted pellets for weight or head size other than to just see if for me it really made any discernible difference on my accuracy when shooting FT or just for fun. I can say with all certainty that I am the weak link when it comes to me hitting the target or not. So for the most part i do not sort at all.I will if I get a tin of pellets that my gun has shot best in the past and now does not do well with them just to see if their quality has changed or suffered. I can say in the past year or so i have found that JSB pellets in .177 in all but the 10.34 weights have changed drastically in that a tin marked 4.52 is nowhere near that size and therefore have stopped buying all JSB .177 pellets for almost two years. I shoot AA pellets exclusively now in all calibers. I still have a good supply of old JSB 33.95s so have only bought AA 25.39s in .25 cal so far in two years. Not sure if they have changed to new dies or quality control is suffering but but all my guns like 4.52 or 4.53 sized pellets and i have not seen any JSBs even close to those sizes in a long time. I know JSB makes AA pellets but AA owns the dies that JSB uses for their pellets so there is a difference.
Most all of my moderators are sized for .25 caliber and those that are not are for .22 so have no moderator sized specifically for .177
The one on my AT44 .22 is for a .25 and it quiets it very nicely, Its one of my loudest gun with no moderator. I don’t think it makes enough difference to be an issue.
BD
BD,
Also,… with regards to moderators,… I read somewhere that the person would always choose the next caliber up to run on their gun. So,.. if they had a .177,.. then they would run a .22 unit. The Maximus is a .22 and the Red Wolf a .25,… so I will be doing a bit of the same. Their opinion was that it made little/to no difference in sound reduction.
Since the swappable units are more rare in the US,… it was probably a UK site that I read it on. Still,.. it sounded good to me and maybe worth passing along.
Chris
Edit: Second thought, it may have been in a US video the Geo linked up for us. The new FX Impact review if not mistaken.
Chris,
Heard that also. Very good idea as it reduces the issue of clipping and does not lose much if anything in the moderation department. Yes, I am repeating what you just said. Too much coffee.
Yes, this was mentioned in one of Steve Scialli’s videos at AEAC (Airgun Nation). In this lastest video he talks about the DONNYFL moderators at 19 minutes & 50 seconds. He also tests many slugs in this video using the Hatsan NeutronStar PCP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0lmY3BIOac
Geo
Geo,
Thank you. After my post,.. I thought that I remembered it being in a slug review video. That was it. As usual,… your on top of it. 😉
It sure would be nice to have the on/off options here in the US like they have in the UK. Yea,.. we do have some options, but not like PA sells any. Backyard sniping/pesting would take on a whole new meaning. Some of them cost as much as a cheaper springer.
Chris
BD,
I do so like hanging out with Lloyd on those rare occasions I have to ride over to his place. He always has something new going on in his little workshop. He picked up a LabRadar this past year and he is in bliss now. His latest project I saw is an “airgun” that is used to simulate storm damage. He designed it for some company to use for testing materials.
RR
Yea Lloyd is a cool guy and we have talked quite a bit on the GTA and gunfun actually hooked me up with him back when the Hipacs first came out and the two I bought were plain junk. Lloyd made me a couple aluminum tubed single piece tubes that accept the disco fill adapters and two aluminum Hipac style end piece that fit in the 2240 tubes. While he was making the tubes he had one assembled running in the lathe and it had some runout so he applied some light pressure to try to straighten it and the steel hipac 2240 insert piece snapped right at the thread root where it threads into the 2240 tube. Not good since the wall thickness at the area was less than .050″ , so he made two aluminum copies for me.
Here’s a pic of the broken piece.
A small point about the SIG Super Target, of particular benefit perhaps to those who aren’t also familiar with the FAS 6004.
The SIG manual doesn’t include any parts list or exploded diagram, but the Chiappa manual for the FAS 6004 has both, and is available on their website – that gave, in fact, a better quality version than the rather cheap-looking copy that came with my FAS.
This gives details that are bound to be relevant to the SIG as well such as o-ring sizes – handy should you want to stock up on breech seals – but another useful detail might be the trigger weight adjustment screw – listed as an ‘M3 x 6 t.cyl head’. The smaller size of the SIG’s trigger guard makes this harder to reach than on the FAS so an allen-head replacement would be worthwhile.
This is what the screw does (this is on the FAS, which I have stripped, and not on the SIG): a wire spring presses on a flap which engages a lip at the front of the trigger, and the screw simply adjusts the tension on the spring. The diameter of the screw head isn’t anything special – off-the-shelf M3 socket head screws engage correctly with the spring
Iain
Iain – UK,
Thank you for your continuing stream of good information on the SIG Super Target/ FAS 6004. What a different (strange) way to provide trigger weight adjustability, at least in my experience! I don’t worry much about trigger weight unless the rules requires me to; or the trigger weight is over 9 pounds and creepy to boot, Lol! I guess that comes from shooting a S&W N29 in .44 Magnum Double Action Most of the time. I guess I will never be a Trigger Nazi! (Bad Joke!)
shootski
Are you going to be at any Airgun Shows this year? Would love to meet you in person. Findlay would be perfect!
BB,
I know it is mentioned somewhere above, but have you heard anything more from Vortek concerning their air pistons?
http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/Airgun_Kit
RR,
No, I haven;’t heard anything. I guess it was an idea that they abandoned, or it just fell through the crack.
B.B.
RR
I left a couple questions below about your RAW. Didn’t know if you seen them so I replied here.
Leshiy Gen 2 is ready for release.
Because I’m an Edgun fan I’ve been following this closely. Here’s a good overview of the next generation Leshiy and a good video at the bottom if you have time:
https://www.edgunleshiy.com/blog/2020/3/2/edgun-leshiy-2-an-engineering-masterpiece/
Here’s a video of the newest Leshiy in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty6GiFnPhEY
Kevin,
WOW! That is one I have not seen,… though I think it is the one RR is always dreaming about if not mistaken.
Lot’s of unique design for sure. Worth a watch ya’ all. (Both) videos.
What would you expect the price to be on the long barrel version with bigger tank? This looks Russian,.. is it? What is customer support like? Is there a US dealer? How does accuracy stack up to other brands? Are they being used in competitions?
Sorry for all the questions,… but that is the first good look I have had of that brand.
Chris
Chris,
The consensus is that the price will be around $2k. Yes, Edguns are made in Russia. There are many dealers in the USA that handle Edguns but Edgun West is the distributor and Bryan is excellent. DO NOT deal with Tony Rodenko of Edgun USA in Florida. Tony was the original USA distributor for Edguns but ran off with money from many people. Edgun accuracy is legendary. The most accurate airgun at long distance I’ve ever shot was an Edgun Matador.
Kevin,
Thank you. For anyone wondering what the HECK a Matador is (like me) here is a video. Sub. MOA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF14FM6TkMs
I can not say it is for me,… but impressive none the less.
Chris
Well
Nice day. 63 F now and sunny. Got the gutters cleaned, yard picked up of small sticks and branches, re-set all the 10 yard markers out to 100 yards. (40-100 is in the woods and the weather and critters take a toll on them over the Winter) Also,… got sighted in with the .22 Maximus at 22.66 yards with the Red Wolf Hugget on. Very nice. Very quiet. POI did change. Adjusted the windage a bit out. Rested support in the shed, sitting down,… good to go. The fuzzy tail herd is about to thinned.
Chris
RidgeRunner
Whenever you see this. Is your RAW shrouded? And how many shots per fill does it get?
GF1
No RAWs are not shrouded but have a built on moderator that quiets them to a whisper even in the big bore calibers. One of the quietest gun available IMO.
They all get quite high shot counts as well. Our match director has a .177 RAW that’s an older model and at 12 fpe he gets close to 200 shots per fill of 250 bar. Sitting right next to him shooting you have to really listen to hear if he shot it or not.
Also did not know if you knew this or not but an Mrod trigger is a copy of the original Theoben/RAW air guns from years ago. Actually you can buy a RAW trigger blade from Martin at RAW and drill the pivot hole out from 2mm to 1/8″ and it will drop right in a Mrod and has a more set back position with a slightly straighter blade. Will not fit in a RAI teryx chassis without clearancing the rear of the trigger slot in the teryx frame to allow for enough trigger pull to release the sear.
BD
.
BD,
Shrouded RAW rifles are being produced. That was shown at the SHOT Show. They also come with silencers. It’s their new line of chassis airguns.
B.B.
Buldawg
Read BB’s comment. That’s why I was wondering if RidgeRunners gun was shrouded or not. And if I remember right his is .30 caliber. It probably doesn’t get as many shots per fill as the .177 your talking about. And I bet it’s not as quiet as the. 177 either.
RR
And forgot. What caliber is yours?