by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Crosman’s 102 is a .22 caliber multi-pump repeater.
This report covers:
- Clearing the jam
- The jam
- Assembly
- Accuracy
- Re-sighting
- Crosman Premiers
- Crosman wadcutters
- 10-shots
- Discussion
- Summary
You may recall that the Crosman 102 jammed last time I tested it and I had to clear it before continuing. I did that and today we will shoot it at 25 yards. First, let’s clear the jam.
Clearing the jam
Crosman designed the 102 to be easy to clear, but without a manual I had to discover it for myself. The rear peep sight slides to either side, revealing a hole through which many jammed pellets can be removed.
Pull the bolt back and rod the pellet out of the breech. It will fall out this hole.
My jam was more involved, though, and I had to partially disassemble the action to clear it. The top receiver cover is held on by one shoulder bolt that has a large thumbscrew head. Remove it and the top cover slides back and off the receiver. The peep sight is attached to the cover by a rivet and comes off with the cover.
Once the receiver cover is off you have access to the receiver to clear tougher jams.
The top of the action is a cam plate that connects the bolt to the brass shuttle that loads the pellet. Here is how that plate works.
When the bolt closes the cam plate moves the brass shuttle in line with the breech to load the next pellet. Bolt is shown fully closed here.
When the bolt is pulled all the way back the cam plate pushes the shuttle in line with the gravity-feed magazine for the next pellet.
Lift the cam plate up off its two pins and set it aside. Now the bolt can be pulled straight out of the receiver. You are ready to clear the jam.
With the bolt out you can clear the receiver and barrel of jammed pellets.
The jam
There was one pellet in the breech that came right out with a cleaning rod. But a second pellet had worked its way into the receiver parts and was jamming the smooth operation of the bolt. That one took longer to pry out. Once it was out, though, the action was as good as before. No more RWS Meisterkugelns for this rifle!
Assembly
Assembly was the reverse of disassembly and took about a minute. This rifle was designed well for this operation. Unfortunately, it lends itself to jamming easily, so I decided to stick to proven pellets.
Accuracy
Now it was time to shoot the rifle at 25 yards. I had already shot one target before the rifle jammed and that was with RWS Hobbys. Five pellets went into 1.4-inches. I had pumped 4 strokes for each of these shots.
The Crosman 102 put 5 RWS Hobby pellets in 1.4-inches at 25 yards.
Re-sighting
The Hobby were shot before the jam. After all that it took to clear things, the rifle had to be sighted-in again. That took about 10 shots and it wasn’t perfect even after all that.
Crosman Premiers
Crosman Premiers feed easily in the 102, despite being domes. This time I pumped 5 strokes for each shot. Five Premiers went into 1.863-inches at 25 yards. That wasn’t what I was looking for, and if you look back at the 10-meter test you will see that Premiers were the worst pellet tested.
Five Crosman Premiers made this 1.863-inch group at 25 yards.
Crosman wadcutters
The last pellet I tried was the Crosman wadcutter. They are the least expensive and yet they also are the most accurate in the 102. Don’t you love it when that happens? Five pellets went into 1.071-inches at 25 yards!
Five Crosman wadcutter pellets went into 1.071-inches at 25 yards.
10-shots
I couldn’t leave it at that, so I adjusted the peep sight a little to the right and shot 10 more wadcutters. This time I nailed the sights! Ten Crosman wadcutters went into 1.867-inches at 25 yards. Better, though, is the fact they are well-centered on the target.
Ten Crosman wadcutters made this 1.867-inch group at 25 yards.
Discussion
The Crosman pellets feed through the 102’s action like quicksilver — especially the wadcutters. And they go where I want them to.
Summary
The 102 isn’t the most accurate pellet rifle I own, but it is one of the funnest. I once owned a Crosman 118 repeater than was smooth like this one. But a Crosman 400 repeater (I had two at different times) often jammed and got out of order. I think the 102 will be in my estate sale.
B.B.,
Glad you were able to clear the jam in short order. Now I can see why they probably referred to the sight as improved, in the sense that it is easier to remove the top cover along with the rear sight to clear the jam. The rear peep sight on the 101 probably interfered and would require removal to clear a similar jam. Thanks also for showing that wadcutters are still accurate at ranges beyond 10 meters.
Siraniko
BB,
I am glad you had a jam so we could see under the cover. Does the leaf spring control a stop in the magazine tube? If that is the case, is the top of the shuttle shaped in such a manner as to raise the stop?
I do so love how these old air rifles are built.
RR,
As much as I saw the leaf spring puts downward tension on the shuttle, to hold it in alignment with the tube that feeds it.
B.B.
That leaf spring has a small, short post on the forward end and that blocks too many pellets from coming down the magazine to the shuttle. When the shuttle slides to the left, the leaf spring is lowered to prevent multiple pellets from jamming the shuttle, and when the shuttle goes back to the right, the leaf spring is raised to allow more pellets to feed from the magazine.
Cloud 9,
That is just how I suspected it to work. The loading mechanism is an ingenious mechanical marvel itself. When combined into a multi-pump air rifle like this that can stand up to generations of use it is no wonder I like these old air rifles and pistols.
B.B, getting a grand ol’ gal like this one to hold an inch at 25 yards, and then to get her to shoot right where she looks, is something pretty cool; you just made my morning; thank you! =>
I still take out my Crosman 99 (CO2 lever action repeater) and blast away at trespassing soda bottle
s (plastic). Fortunately, it’s never jammed where I had to take it apart as I don’t think removing the mechanism that takes the pellet from the loading tray to the barrel would be a simple proposition. Only thing I’ve had to do with this rifle that I bought at Roanoke is use pellgun oil on the CO2 cartridge and tighten up the piercing assembly so the seal was snug and holding. Neat and NO PUMPING!
Fred formerly of the DPRoNJ now in GA
Fred,
Very sweet sounding rifle you have. I’ve never owned one, but they look like they would be fun.
Doc
I’ve been led to believe that it was based on the Savage Model 99 lever action rifle. I don’t know this for certain, however.
Fred formerly of the DPRoNJ now in GA
Going to try to make this simple. Tethered is the way to go from a regulated bottle to a pcp.
With the regulated 13 cu. in. Ninja bottle I tryed with my Condor SS and Co2 AirForce adapter was regulated at only 800 psi. Wrong working pressure from the regulator. But hang on. It was the ideal setup with my WildFire tethered. Then at the end of my reply I’ll say about the Condor SS.
The WildFire got 16 mags that hold 12 shots which was 196 full power shots that hit on poi of (ilk) can.
The Maximus hit same poi with the tetherd 1100 psi regulated Air Venturi 13 cu. in. HPA bottle as it did whith the established air tube resivoir pressure I used for a full fill before the regulated bottle. So the air Venturi bottle was regulated right for my Maximus. It’s getting 146 full power shots with same poi as it was unregulated.
And the Condor SS is the tuff one. And now the reminder from the beginning of my reply. I started the Condor SS test with basically the wrong regulated pressure feeding each shot. It was just not going to work at that psi.
So I was trying to shoot at 800 psi and feeding right off of the 13 cubic inch bottle. There was no air volume. Not enough psi for flow and the restricted AirForce Co2 adapter.
And a quick note. There is nothing wrong with the AirForce Co2 adapter. It just was not the right application for what I wanted to achieve.
All said and done. I put the higher 1100 psi regulated Air Venturi bottle tethered to the Condor SS’s factory bottle and I got good consistent power that was off about 75 fps instead of 150 fps that happened when I ran the Ninja bottle that was only regulated at 800 psi.
The big thing was picking up that extra volume from the guns factory resivoir or bottle and more working pressure from the higher regulated bottle pressure. Then tethered to the regulated bottle.
The right regulated pressure with a sufficient supply of air fromm the resivoir and bottle made all the difference. Oh and the Condor SS got about 60 good shots on the tethered (1100) psi air Venturi bottle. But note. Still is not as much fps as the non tetherd factory bottle and correct established fill pressure and ending pressure. That still gives the best shooting result with the Condor SS for what bottles I have tryed now. The factory set up.
And as it goes it don’t seem that it can ever be kept simple. I tryed to tell it that way. And believe me. Alot of shooting was involved. And all I can say is more shooting is still involved. But hey what can I say. It’s what happens. 🙂
GF
I decided to join the compressor club. Ordered the Air Venturi Nomad today.
tt
TT
Gerald took the words right out of my mouth. Good for you. I definitely want to hear what you think about it.
And does that mean you have been hand pumping all this time? Or did you have somewhere to go to to fill a big bottle up?
Oh and my China pump is still going strong. I better knock on wood right now.
GF
Hand pumping all along.
tt
TT
I hand pumped for a while. I don’t want to do that anymore if I don’t have to.
Do you know when your compressor will be delivered?
GF
Try pumping Talons by hand .
Should be here Tuesday or Wed..
I won’t be doing any fills over 200 Bar.. Some will be faster than others.
I am not going to beat it to death.
tt
TT
My first non spin lock talon I had I hand pumped it for a while before I got a compressor. I was only filling it to 2300 psi. Still was no fun. I weigh right at 200 pounds so it’s not really hard for me. It’s that I like the fast and easy now from using compressors.
And cool. Make sure you let me know when you get it. Want to hear about it.
Well, I’m still a member of the “workout” club with a hand pump. I would be curious to know how many of the blog group use compressors as compared to hand pumps. I don’t normally shoot more than three pumping sessions at a time which is 50-60 shots just to stay in practice.
Geo
If you ever get a compressor you will not want to go back to hand pumping. It just makes it simple.
What that relates to is more enjoyment of your shooting time.
Geo,
For what you do, I am not sure a compressor would be worth it. And, with a compressor usually comes a bottle too. I have the Shoebox 10 and a 98cc buddy bottle (the Guppy),.. but then I have 3 PCP’s and shoot quite a bit more too,… or at least used to anyways. I got that set up before all the new compressors came out. I like it and it works well for me. The Guppy has 2 gauges, one that reads tank pressure all of the time and then a second larger one that shows filling pressure status that falls back to zero after filling a gun. 2 gauges is very nice.
In your shoes and (if) looking to upgrade,.. I would consider that China pump that GF1 got and go direct to the gun like he does. $300’ish if I do recall. If you decide to shoot more and/or get another PCP,.. then it might be an option. I think GF1 says the average gun fill might be around 3 minutes. A tank is nice to haul out to the bench with you or travel with,.. but I just bring the guns back inside since my bench is only like 20 steps from my front door.
In the end, it just adds to the enjoyment and ease of things to have a compressor and a tank. Plus, while getting the heart rate up is good for cardio, it is not so good for steady shooting. 😉
Chris
I agree with your last statement. Hand pumping is not so good for shooting a lot of shots. But like you said, for how I’m shooting right now the hand pump is fine. Maybe at some point I’ll step up to a compressor but that’s an expense I can forgo for now. I’ve already blown the through my indoor backstop with duct seal and 1/2″ OSB back. Any ideas about where I could find a piece of sheet steel to use as a backer? My Urban just chews through everything else pretty fast.
Geo791,
An old refrigerator door from the junkyard might work.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Thanks for the idea, but I need a piece of 1/8″ thick steel to use as a backer for an indoor target I use in the basement. I fasten 8 1/2″ x 11″ targets to it that I print out on my printer.
Geo,
I would try a local fab. shop or machine shop or weld shop. A scrap/junk yard may have something too. (I am pretty sure Lowes has pieces of sheet steel too in with their rod stock and other stick steel stock). I would do at least 11 ga. which is close to 1/8″ thick. Many weld/machine shops also sell steel to the public for farmers and home fabricators. A plasma cutter is an option to a shear. There is small home units that people have with a hand held cutter. You should be able to turn up something pretty quick.
Combine that with a swinging matt and all you have to do is sweep up the lead that falls to the bottom. Much nicer than duct seal.
Chris
Chris,
Thanks for the suggestions. I will check it out. I did copy your plans for a target backstop and save it for future reference. Just wish I had a picture to go with your plans. I will take a picture of the target backstop I made with duct seal in it. I’m blowing the back out of it already.
Geo,
Also, isolate the steel plate from anything solid. It will make a dead thunk when the pellet hits. I used the foam packing that PA ships pellets in, (behind the plate) and then used drywall screws at the corners with a rubber washer under the screw heads The screws did not touch the mounting holes in the steel plate either. You get the idea. You are trying to make a back stop/trap,… not a gong! 😉
Chris
Does the steel plate hang straight down in the back, or is it at an angle like \ to deflect the pellets downward?
Geo,
Mounted solid to the rear wall, straight up and down. No issues. Even bb’s. The swinging mat helps and target backer is another barrier.
Geo,
The “swinging matt” is some 1/4″ rubber that I got at work. A similar item would be a semi-truck mud flap. Very durable. I am sure that there is places around you that replace them and would be happy to give you an old one.
I hang it from a rod and use binder clips over the rod. You will shoot through it,.. but it will be a good rebound barrier. Pellets are not so much an issue as they will splat flat. The bb’s will not shoot through the matt, but will lose energy and fall too.
Bottom line,… make it how you want. The slanted plate is a good idea. I just did not do it.
Chris
Geo791,
Another junkyard idea is to find an opened safe. it’s already a box made of steel with concrete reinforcement, you just have to find one small enough for your needs.
Siraniko
Geo, 98 cubic inch,… not cc. The bottle on the Red Wolf is a 500 cc I do believe. It is a big one. The M-rod is 300 cc I think.
Geo,
Actual volumes:
M-rod, 215 cc
Maximus, 135 cc
Urban, 105 cc
Red Wolf, 480 cc
Guppy Tank, 114 cu.in. or 18 cu. ft., cc?
I was not sure and got curious so I looked them all up.
Chris
TT,
Good for you! I am sure it will add ease and enjoyment to your shooting sessions. No bottle? I know some of the compressors do not recommend filling a bottle (at least not the big ones) but filling a small one, 1 time, should not be an issue. You can always fill it over a time period with 1/2 hr. rest in between. Once it is full, you will never have to fill it up from 0 again. My Shoebox 10 and 98 cc Guppy tank will do 3500 to 4500 in about 20 minutes. That is a bunch of fills depending on if your gun is a 2000 or 3000+ fill model. 10 and 5 respectively. Maybe like 15 on a 2000 model? Enjoy! 🙂
Chris
TT, I am pretty sure I mean cubic inch, not cc. The big tanks are cubic feet, if I do recall correct.
TT
Good for you I like the air venturi compressor.
As for GF1, you need to get the 13 cube bottle to feed your condor at about 1400psi. You would have the fps with it you need for what you want to achive.
Gerald
Gerald
Yep you got it.
Right now I’m using the lower regulated Ninja bottle for the WildFire. I only use it on that gun.
And the higher regulated Air Venturi bottle will be only used for my Maximus.
What I’m looking at for the Condor SS is a bottle that mac1 has. It’s the same diameter as the Air Venturi and Ninja bottle. But its longer. That way I can still keep it in my front jeans pocket when I go outside. And as you say. The higher regulated pressure.
They have different pressures that you can get. And I really need about 1800 psi regulated pressure for it to get up to my 950fps the Condor SS makes on the factory bottle.
I think I’m going to call them and see what they can come up with. If they can get the pressure I need then I’m going to have to buy another Air Venturi adapter. Because I want to have that set up dedicated to the Condor SS. Like the WildFire and Maximus have theirs.
But so far so good.
Oh and forgot.
I want the longer mac1 bottle because of more volume of air. If I get up to 1800 psi regulated pressure I’m going to need that extra volume to keep my shot count up.
And I know I can go to bigger bottles but I’m trying to keep the bottle easy to carry in my pocket. It works out nice keeping it my front jeans pocket. I could even run if I want with the bottle in my pocket without worrying about it falling out. As I said before. So far so good.
GF1,
Sounding good. So,.. you will have 3 tethered guns in the end ehh? Having them regulated will be the big plus as I see it. Extra shot count will be nice too.
Just checked the Maximus and it is holding the 3000 just fine. On (your) Maximus,.. I thought you had messed with it more. You did chop the fore end, right? Also, did you not have it tethered at one time also? I was thinking too that you used a drop down tank adapter and had a bottle mounted to it,… the reason for the fore end chop,… or so I thought anyways.
At any rate, that is what I remember and the reason that I had thought that you have messed with it quite a bit.
Hopefully get out this AM and shoot the Red Wolf some more. The weather models are showing storms/rain staying about 1/2 hr. just South of me on a front line,.. so it will be iffy. Been mid 80’s+ and humid as all get out here. Got a lot of rain Friday PM. Nothing worse than getting all set up and to have it start raining. Wood deck and concrete steps look to be dryish now so that means that the trees I shoot under should be dry too. They can drip for several hours after a good rain.
Having live weather radar is cool and it at least gives you a pretty good idea of what will be happening and when. Makes you wonder how we got by “back in the day” ehh? 😉
Chris
Yep 3 tethered guns. And remember the Gauntlet uses the same bottle. So 4 regulated pcp’s.
And yep at first I did cut the stock on the Maximus and had the small bottle zip tied to the air tube. I didn’t like the extra weight of the bottle on the gun. Plus I really needed to figure out a way to mounit better. And I for the longest time been running the Maximus with no stock and the 2240 type of pistol grip assembly and the 1399 stock.
And I put the Huma regulator in the Maximus right before you put one in yours. And it’s been that way till up to about a week or so ago. Then I took it out because of the slow leak. Now no more leak down.
And your remembering the QB79. I put a drop down adapter on the front of it with the regulated bottle on the front. Just like what the Gauntlet uses.
But yep definitely like the tethered bottle set up. And we are suppose to be dry here and in the mid to upper 80’s. Which is good because I’m to go out and try the big blast caps later today also. I want try them with water and with out. And they say they work nice if you put powder of some sort in them. Should be fun. But problem is I only got four 2 litre bottles right now. So that’s only 4 shots. Anyway should be fun.
And let us know how your shooting goes today. And glad your Maximus is holding air.
GF1, See bottom for RW update,…. Chris
GF1,
I agree that the longer bottle is worth a few more $’s. I saw one on someone’s Gauntlet a while back.
Geo asked who pumps and I have 3 pcp’s that I fill with one hand pump. For that reason I like the Gauntlet the best because it gets the most shots per fill.
I put some different pellets through the Gauntlet today and found the AA field heavy 10.3 are as accurate as the AA field 8.4 that are my best so far. The H&N baracuda were all over the place.
Waiting to hear TT’s thoughts on his new compressor.
Gerald
Yep with TT’s new compressor.
And yes I saw the longer bottle on a Gauntlet too. And I use the Air Arms 10 grain pellets too. The JSB 10.34 and Air Arms 10 grain pellets are my go to .177 caliber pellets. I myself haven’t had as good of results with the JSB 8.4 pellets tryed them in many guns for many years. The 10 grainers always seem to win out. For me anyway.
Participant
Keep in mind that this compressor is not intended for heavy duty operation. It is intended for filling guns, not high capacity tanks.
It will require a high amount of maintenance .
Download the instruction manual from PA to decide if you can live with it or not . If you need something that can be beat hard for extended periods of time, you need something else.
tt
TT,
I think that it would be ok for something like a Guppy tank (114 cu. in./18 cu. ft.) 1st time fill. I would do it 1/2 hr. periods with a 1/2 hr. cool down. After the first fill, it should just be topping off. My Shoebox runs 20 minutes for 3800-4500. 33 min. for 3300-4300,.. and those are actual #’s for the Guppy tank.
Chris
Chris
I will have to see how long it takes to top off my rifles . Run times could be fairly short . I will have to see.
tt
114 cubic inches / 18 cubic feet – this is somewhat confusing because the 114 cubic inches is water volume, and the 18 cubic feet is air volume. Don’t see how the volumes correlate. Another new thing to learn?
Geo,
I pulled that off the site when I looked things up. If they are wrong in some way,.. then I am wrong.
The tank is wrapped up in 2 layers of 1/2″ sleeping matt foam and secured with duct tape. Complete with a 2 layer bottom. It increases the OD and makes it very stable to sit upright. And no,…. I am not taking my custom foam wrap off to see what writing there is on the bottle,… of which I am sure of, that there is some. 😉
Chris
No Chris, you are correct. It is what the site states, it is just strange that they spec two volumes which are not related to each other. But that’s how they show it.
Gerald
And that place I mentioned does have a ninja bottle that is 22 cubic inches. It is the same diameter as the 13 cubic inch bottles and a bit longer. And the highest they go is 1800 with the regulated pressure.
They are kind of high at $175. But it’s what I’m after. So probably going to order one next week.
Off topic question here but I hope someone can help my failing memory and weak search skills: I recall reading about a high quality adult BB gun way back and I think it was on this site. My memory suggests it was German made and built for commercial gallery use. FWB perhaps? Does anyone have any idea what I’m thinking of? I can picture it but for the life of me can’t recall the make, model etc. I’m not thinking of getting one (I’m happy with the 499 for BB target practice!) but I would like to read up on it again – and hopefully remember what I read this time.
Nowhere,
Do you mean these?: /blog/2008/02/what-came-before-the-10-meter-rifle-part-2-zimmerstutzen/
Siraniko
Nowhere,
You are thinking of the Diana model 30. It may still be made today. They are accurate but not as accurate as a Daisy 499. I may be able to borrow one for a test.
B.B.
B.B.,
Read a short article on it. Modeled after the Kar98 featuring an underlever and a loading tap. Shot pellets more accurately than the Haenels shot BBs.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
No, not that one. Diana made two model 30s. That was an earlier one. The one I referred to is a bolt-action gallery gun that shoots ball bearings. It has two counters for the gallery to track shots for charging and for maintenance.
I mentioned it here:
/blog/2009/11/haenel-310-parts-2-3/
B.B.
B.B.,
Rather confusing for Diana to use one model designation for two entirely different rifles. Some form of logistics joke I suppose?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
About the same as when Crosman made a Benjamin Streak! 😉
B.B.
B.B.,
Having the Blue Book,… (hint ya’ all!),…. I was able to look it up straight away. I knew I had seen that before. Who could forget that lever on top? I had forgotten about the counters though.
The Blue Book is showing 3 models of the 30.
1) 30B (Bugelspanner) 1913-1935
2) 30M (Military) 1935-1940
3) 30R (Repeater),… as you have shown in the picture
They all look different and in the notes it says that are not related and the B,M,R was added to distinguish the models and does not appear on the guns. The R is listed at $450 in 95% for anyone interested. It says limited manufacture from 1972-2000. That is a LONG time for “limited” manufacture! 😉
Chris
That Diana 30 with the counters is the one I was thinking of, thanks! Good thing BB and the community here are so helpful and knowledgeable. I would have been searching forever without you.
Nowhere,
I now have a model 30 with the counters and I hope to do a complete report for you.
B.B .
.25 Red Wolf update:
Today was a series of experiment(s).
– Tank rested or fore end rested?
– High power or medium power?
– Sorted pellets or un-sorted pellets?
The fore end rested did slightly better,… enough to stay with,.. I think. It was pretty close.
The 25.39’s did better on high power,… enough to stay with.
The sorted and non-sorted test(s) was the most interesting. Using 24 mag. and rested both front and rear on an adjustable rest,….. I have seen 4,5 and even 6 pellets land on top of one another and then 3 or more land a 1/2″ off from the group. WHAT THE HECK!!!!!!
The set up is so steady,.. that there is NO doubt as to what is happening. When you get an off landing pellet,… you know FOR SURE that it was not you. Maybe? the (very slightest) of hold differences, but not much else.
Weight and head sorted results, center to center:
30 yards, 25.39, (sorted), 5 shots each,…. .222″, .251″, .228″ (unsorted .456″)
50 yards, 25,39, (sorted), 10 shots each,…. 7/10 = .337″, 10/10 = .814″
50 yards, 25.39, (un-sorted), 10 shots each,…. 7/10 = .420″, 9/10 = .796″, 10/10 = 1.267″
So,.. the lessons?,… Fore end rested, hi-power and (preferably) 🙁 sort pellets for head and weight. As it turned out,… I had a (very few) of weight sorted pellets already from prior weighing,.. so all I had to do was use the Pelletgage to head sort them. The 30 yard sorted groups were weight and head specific (all the same head, but different weight per group) and the 50 yard was a mix. 9 of one weight and 1 of another,.. but all the same head. All pellets, in all test, were the same head.
I had “fantasy”??? ideas of dropping “pellet on pellet” at 50 yards,.. but it would appear that it will not be quite that easy. 🙁
That is it for now. Hopefully some more shooting, again in the AM.
Chris
NOTE: The 50 yard was just 2 test,… 10 shots each. I did the x/x to show group spread with added shots.
Chris
I don’t remember. Did you try the heavier 33.95 JSB’s? They always seem to do better for me than the 25 grain JSB’s.
And those really aren’t bad groups. Remember different days usually bring different results. I think you just need to spend more time with it.
GF1,
I did try the 33.95’s and expected them to do better. Even the MKII’s. So far, no. Close,.. but the 25.39’s are doing better. Even with the 33.95’s,… some pellets would land on top of one another, just like the 25.39’s. It is ((quite odd)) and still has me puzzled a bit. That is what forced me to play with the sorted pellets today.
Of course,.. I checked the scope related screws and the single stock screw. I even took the action out to check it over. The scope is still factory centered. It is close enough now that final adjustments will be made with the turrets.
What I can tell you at this point is that it (will) let you know when you shoot a pellet that is different from the rest. Yet,.. the groups are similar and consistent. 70% pellet on pellet and 30% (ish) off from the main group. The steady rest and higher magnification has pretty well eliminated the “me” factor. The sorted pellets have been the biggest break through and have produced the most noticeable results. As I said,… a bit odd.
It may be that it has some rest/hold sensitivity? If it does,.. it is very slight. Like you said,… spend some more time with it.
Chris
Chris
Maybe the barrel and valve need broke in. And maybe the electronics need more shooting time to calibrate some sort of way more?
Don’t know but I would try more shooting for sure.
GF1,
In general,… it does seem to be experiencing some sort of breaking in. Of course,… it may be,.. OR it may be (me) getting better with it,.. OR a combination of both. Whatever way,… things are improving.
Chris
Chris
As long as it’s improving then I wouldn’t worry. My Condor SS took some time to get better. But doing good now.
B.B,
Based on what you have read from my comments,…. what do (you) think?
How can I get pellet on pellet and then have shots go off? Do you have any “gut” feeling as to what to try? I mean,… I have had 3 shots in row (multiple times) that never changed the group size at all. Then 2 off and then 3 more back in near the same small hole. Very frustrating when you see that, as you can imagine.
Any opinion appreciated.
Thanks… Chris
Chris,
Could be many things. Are there lead streaks inside the shroud/moderator? That’s what it acts like.
B.B.
B.B.,
The moderator is a Huggett and appears to be a series of baffles and batting and appears to have ample clearance. It is a well made unit and all metal. The shroud is similar to the M-rod unit. The moderator screws on and off the shroud end cap via 1/2-20 male threads on the shroud end cap. When the moderator is not in use, a knurled thread collar screws on the threads. I tried it without the Huggett and with it and it shoots better with it. It is all a really stiff set up. The shroud end cap incorporates an inner stripper of sorts and measures .315″ ID. The shroud is well supported with collars and O-rings. 3 in the rear and 1 up front. Shot tray for 99.9% of shots.
Thank you for the advice. I will keep a further eye out for any clipping. My “gut” at this point is that while it will put a variety of pellets into a descent group,… it likes the pellets to be the same. Same head? Same skirt? I do not know. I suppose that I am doomed to doing some sorting? 😉
Something that I thought you would find interesting is that Daystate recommends cleaning the barrel every 500 shots,… or so. I have nearly 500 through it and it is as shiny as new. They also recommend lubing the pellets. They must do things a bit different across the pond. I will not consider cleaning (or lubing) until something changes. For now, it seems to be getting better. The barrel does come right out with 2 set screws, which I thought is a nice feature for a PCP.
Chris
Chris
And I read things about the shroud on your Daystate.
They say becareful taking apart or cleaning. They say there are wires in there that attach to the onboard chrony. In otherwards. Probably can ruin the gun.
Didn’t know if you was aware.
GF1,
That is on another model(s) and I am pretty sure that they do not do that anymore,… but not 100% sure. Either way,… mine does (not) have that,.. for sure. I am aware of that type though. I think Geo may have posted a link awhile back on that, but not sure. The electronic regulator system is similar though.
Chris
I do believe your gun uses the chrony in the moderator. That’s how it knows how to adjust air pressure for the shot.
It calibrates how the electronic striker hits.
I may be wrong but some reason I’m sure I saw and read about it when you said you ordered your Daystate.
GF1,
100% sure it does (not). I have had the shroud off and the barrel out. There IS Daystate guns though that do have that,… but not the Red Wolf.
Chris
Ok. Well now I got to search more about the gun you have. Cause now I don’t understand how the gun knows how to adjust pressure for the fps it shoots.
GF1,
From what I gather,… the electronics monitors both side of the regulator, balancing the pressure,… and sending the appropriate signal/voltage to the coil powered hammer. Pressure decreases and the hammer strike gets more powerful,… pulled further back. Or,… at least something along those lines. 😉 Hey!,… if you find out for sure,… you let me know! So far,.. it seems to be working pretty good.
This Winter,.. I will sacrifice about 70 pellets and get a full shot curve with all of the data including pressure drop along the string.
Chris
Ok so your gun monitors pressure. Not fps too.
Maybe that is better that way. But I wonder why they don’t also monitor fps too anymore.
I wonder if the guns that monitored for fps and changed striker hit was more consistent. Or more problems to work right.
I’m now thinking they don’t use the chrony anymore for some reason/that reason?
Ok big blaster cap time.
All I can say is cool stuff.
We tryed one 2 litre bottle half filled with water and 75 psi of air. They say it can go to 80 psi in the instructions with the 2 litre bottles. But every pump stroke made me feel like it was going to pop. I did fill the bottles in the blast containment bag it comes with. But still I could feel the Spidy senses tingling if you know what I mean.
It was pretty cool. It jumped off the ground about 5 feet as it exploded. It happened very quickly. And it wasn’t noisy at all. Sounded about like the 710 fps CCI rimfire rounds. I was thinking the water could of muffled the sound.
Then next did a 2 litre bottle filled with air to 75 psi. And what was cool is my youngest daughter is was taking a video of it and I didn’t know it. I will post the video in a minute. I was telling her when I was ready to shoot when I was in the breezeway. She was standing by the door to the yard. Then you hear her say yupp. But it went at least 75 feet in the air. And it wasn’t that loud either. Out here anyway. Probably would get someone’s attention in town.
And only one thing I don’t like. I lost both caps. I tied them to my squirrel feild target. Both bottles broke the string that came with it. No idea where they went.
So next step is I’m going to use some wire tied to the cap and squirrel target. But yep totally like the results. Now I got to save up more bottles. Definitely fun stuff. And I couldn’t edit the video for some reason. So you will herar us. And she didn’t stay with the bottle flying the whole time. Not the best video but not bad either. Glad she got it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz_KUn7alNk
Oh and if you have the option on the upper right of the video. Click on it and slow it down.
You can see the explosion better and how high the bottle goes.
GF
We have some recycle bins just up the street. One day there were hordes of plastic bottles in one of them . Must have been hundreds .
My wife drinks bottled water . Always hate picking up cases of it for her when I go to the store.
tt
TT
So now I’m thinking I got to tell the guys at work to save their 2 litre bottles and bring them in for me.
And yes they do recyle out where I’m at too with the trash pick up. They supply a full size can just for recycling.
GF1,
Very cool stuff!!!!! 🙂 x10 Pretty good video all in all, I thought.
Chris
Cool glad you liked it. I’ll tell my daughter.
And I was surprised in more ways than one. One that she did the video. And two how the bottle blew.
I could do that all day long. 🙂
GF1,
That was really cool! The video of it blowing up was fun to watch. Good job daughter.
Geo
Told her. She said thanks.
And yep. I would of never thought it was going to do that.
And now I need more bottles to see if I get anymore that do like that.
Oh and that was with my Condor SS. I wonder if how fast and the diameter of the pellet makes a difference. I can see the bottle has two holes where the pellet enters and exits the bottle. And the bottle had a long split on both sides of it.
I’m going to have to try my FWB 300. It shoots slower than the Condor SS and has the smaller diameter pellet. The instructions said it works down at 600 fps. I just wonder if the way it blows up changes with different velocities. Got to get more bottles is all I can say right now.
GF1,
My guess is that any pellet that would penetrate the plastic bottle would cause it to explode. I think it’s just physics. There is a lot of pressure in the bottle and when it’s penetrated…boom. Just like a balloon.
Geo
What I mean by the way it blows up is when my .25 Condor SS hit the bottles. There was a entrance and exit hole in the bottle. And each hole made cut all the way down the bottle. So when it blew it was more or less happening on each side of the bottle at the same time.
What I’m wondering with the smaller .177 pellet shooting slower is maybe it won’t make it out the other side before it blows. And that’s if I shoot at it at the same distance as I did with the .25 caliber pellet.
And thinking more now. Maybe different distances will make it blow different. Like the slower .177 caliber pellwt. At some distance out there it probably won’t even penetrate one side of the bottle. But yep physics one way or another.
GF1,
Now you will be getting the six pack of 20oz to have more bottles than one 2ltr. I have lost a cap also but if you tie a bright ribbon on it they are easier to find.
Gerald
Gerald
I think mine ended up out in the soy beans.
We did another with just air and it shot out in the feild like a rocket. Got a video of it. But can’t find it either. Even watched the video over and over to try to get the location where it landed. No luck. Reminds me of when I was a kid learning rc planes. You could watch were the plane went down. But never could find it. Kind of like the Bermuda triangle. The earth just eats it up.
And my daughter was getting the 20 oz bottled water. But don’t no more. And they say only 50 psi for those. I do know they are alot more flimsy than the 2 litre bottles. Makes the Spidy senses get rild up again.
And the thing is. I tied the caps off. Still broke the string that came with them and the yarn I tryed.
Maybe kite string is what’s needed. Can you even get that anymore?
B.B.,
Above, I asked your opinion on why some pellets are going off from what is an otherwise excellent grouping. You mentioned that you thought it might be pellet clipping.
I spent at least an hour this AM looking things over real good and taking critical measurements where I could. Bore light, good flash light, digital calipers and drill bits for go/no-go gauges.
-This was for the shroud end cap which has a stripper behind it and the tail end of which sits 3/4″ from the barrel.
-This was also for the Huggett screw on moderator that is 1 1/4″ OD and 6 3/4″ long.
No evidence of pellet clipping found anywhere.
As for clearances:
-There is a (minimum) .036″ (all around pellet clearance) on the shroud end cap and air stripper. 5/16″ bit pass thru.
-There is a (minimum) .047″ (all around pellet clearance) through the Huggett. 11/32″ bit pass thru.
** For reference,.. (1/32″ = .031, 1/16″ = .063″)
I also checked the Huggett (to) shroud for anything being out of parallel and found the Huggett to be perfectly in line with barrel, so not screwed on crooked. (shroud end cap in crooked, thus making the moderator screw on at an angle to the shroud/barrel).
So,… this raises 2 questions,..
1) On clipping in general, why would the same type/brand/weight pellets clip and others not?
2) If not clipping, which it appears that it is not,…. do you have any other ideas to look into?
Remember,… I am seeing about a 70/30 ~ 80/20 split which may occur in a row, but more often in batches or at random throughout a 10 shot string.
Thanks,… Chris
Chris,
If the pellet leaves the muzzle canted it can clip. The tolerance may be so small that some clip and others don’t. You found no evidence of clipping and that was all I asked. The measurements are unimportant. It’s either clipping or it isn’t.
I would try different pellets to find some that seem more stable.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thank you. I will continue to keep and eye out for any clipping though. I wanted to know the measurements for one,.. to know,… and second to see where any tight areas might be that would be the most likely areas to present a problem, now or in the future.
Chris
Chris
How many shots through the gun now? Maybe the barrel needs shot more to season it. My Condor SS took some time to come in.
And another thought is maybe you need more velocity. You said you tryed the lower power setting already. Didn’t you say the twist rate was a little different. Or maybe I’m thinking of something else though.
GF1,
463 thus far. I have been shooting on high (of low, med and high). I did try the medium setting. If I want more fps I will have to go to a lighter pellet. (I have yet to chrony it). A of A said 25.39 JSB’s at 929 and Daystate said 31.0 Barracudas at 854.5.
I am not sure what the twist rate is. I may try to find out later. It is a “special select” Lothar Walther barrel,… whatever “special select” is supposed to mean? 😉 Maybe nothing more than an excuse to add in some extra mark-up? 🙂 LOL
Chris
To me it sounds like it needs more shooting time. My Condor SS took close to 2000 pellets through it before it started settling in.
Maybe the lead collects in the barrel and makes the pellet fit to bore better and a more stable diameter down the legnth of the barrel. I don’t know just a thought.
Chris
Another thing. Maybe you had wind blowing that you didn’t know about on those so called flyer shots.
GF1,
No wind. I did not even set out my four Vana2 wind flags. It was pretty darn ideal conditions.
Chris
Hmm. Sounds like more shooting is needed then to see if the gun changes on different days.
As crazy as this sounds don’t use your new rest and shoot some groups. Use a bag or however you shoot your Maximus. See what happens like that too. You just never know.
GF1,
I have played with it some. The rear stock has that deep sway on the underside and there is not much to do there but pick it up/off the rear rest.
1) Tank rested w/rear rested, light shoulder
2) Fore end rested w/rear rested, light shoulder
3) Tank rested with 2 layers of wax paper (to allow slide action) between the rest and tank (while) lifting the rear out and shouldered as normal
4) Tank rested and shouldered, no wax paper
So yea,.. I have played a bit with that. The old way offers no advantage over the MTM rest. Plus the gun will sit up on its own in the rest while I re-set targets, or refresh my beverage. Remember too I made a Velcro strap that can further secure the gun while in the rest. I do not use it/leave it attached while shooting so as not to apply any unnatural downwards force on the gun. I will keep playing with things,… as I always do.
Thanks for the ideas,… Chris
Chris
Well you will have to give us some more updates as you go then. Hopefully you will get what your after sooner than later.
I’m very interested in what the root cause is for your random flyers (wow, 1/4″ flyers?).
GF1 has certainly given many possibilities. Keep us posted, I’m liking the reports 🙂
Chris U,
I think you need to shoot more first to see if it gets better by breaking in. And try different pellets.
Hey, what would be the fun if it shot pellet on pellet at 50 yards out of the box. I would also pay attention to the feel each time while loading each pellet. Do the pellets all feel the same or do some feel a little rough or hang up a bit?
There is a good chance you will find a better pellet. Some chrony tests while using one of Vanna’s targets may also reveal something.
Persistance usually pays off. Good luck.
Don
Don,
Thank you for the advice and ideas. Heck, it darn near did do pellet on pellet at 50 if you saw the results from above. Heck,.. even 1″ at 50 in an evenly scattered group would be a good group. But, when you see 7 of 10 land that tight 2 times in a row,… that really gets the ol’ blood flowing.
On feeding, I have been using the shot tray almost exclusively. The “feel” is very nice, so I should be able to pick up on an “odd” one. I have actually grown pretty fond of it,… which is something I do not think I ever would have said a few months ago. EEEK!
Also on pellets, I tried 5 types already. I have never had good luck with HN’s, but won’t count them out. Plus, with the 30 and 50 yard groups from yesterday,… you wonder IF? there could be a better pellet. I will need to put in an order before long though, so I will look over my options then. Plus,.. re-shoot what I have already tried again. It is all too easy to blow $100 plus on pellets,… just to “try”.
On scoping,. I am not used to shooting at 24x plus and while (very) steady,… I do need to “fine tune” that just a wee bit.
And yes,.. as you said,… (Plan A) is to just shoot some more! 😉
Thanks again,…. Chris
Hey Chris USA,
Since you are sitting at your bench…if you unfasten the top button on you trousers and loosen your belt by one notch see if it eliminates some of that potential Aorta pulse.
Only a maybe. Lots of folks do that in any sitting position!
Have fun shooting and gaining knowledge of and experience with that BAD girl.
shootski
Shootski,
Well,.. that is (certainly) one tip that you do not hear everyday!!!! 😉 Now it makes me nervous to ever go to a field target event and anticipate a bunch of old guys undoing the trouser buttons all at once! :0 LOL!
Chris
Wow! Now we are really grasping at straws. Chris, maybe you are not holding you mouth right 😉
Geo,
🙂 for sure! It does make sense and something that an experienced shooter would know. I like every little edge that I can get,.. to make up for my shear lack of any natural talent,… so I will take what I can get.
I do suppose that falls in line with the specialized shooting outfits,… although,… in that case,.. they are trying to hold it all in place whereas this golden tip seems to suggest the opposite approach. 🙂
Chris
Chris,
You are having WAY too much fun 🙂
BINGO!
That’s right Chris.
When you wear a Shooting Coat some of the five straps are tightened but others aren’t, zippers are undone in the crook of your elbow that rests on your hip bone depending on position. If you wear shooting pants then is when High Power, three/four position and 10M shooters loosen that top button and belt. I haven’t a clue if Field Target shooters onow about that…don’t most of the wear stretchy jeans and sit on bum bags? I do use that trick when I shoot a benched rifle since it works for me when I’m wearing heavy jeans or tactical pants.
shootski
Shootski,
As always,.. any and (all) tips are appreciated. 😉 I am sure that you are giving your good tips to more than just me. I am open to all tips.
Thanks,.. Chris
Chris
You know what else I thought of last night while I was at work.
Your Daystate has a electronic trigger. Maybe it needs a different follow through. Also maybe you are getting side pressure of some sort on the trigger that is pulling your shot to one side or the other ever so slightly. Less or more can cause problems.
That is very good way to pull a shot and it seems like it’s a flyer.
I would look at your trigger technique. I don’t recall you mentioning anything about how you use the trigger on the Daystate.
GF1,
It is so light that I am not sure my Lyman would pick it up. It is a micro switch and very easy to activate.
The trigger post moves forward and rearward (1″ travel) on a dovetail and the shoe can go up and down on the post too,… as well as twist side to side.
The trigger is probably the (last) thing it could be. And,.. like Geo said,…”now we are calling something that is 1/4″ off the main group,.. at 50 yards,.. a flyer?” 😉 Maybe I should lower my expectations a bit? 🙂 If it will do it,… then great.
Thanks for thinking about it though. I welcome all ideas. Chris
Chris,
Don’t recall but does you scope have a level built into it? Is it possible you may be canting the rifle slightly different between shots? Grabbing at straws here.
Geo,
It does not have a level. I did make some targets on the computer at work (circle with cross hairs), so I do have a reference. They are working pretty nice actually and beats having to hand make them by a long shot! I think that after enough shooting,… that cross-hair level thing becomes instinctual. I think. 😉
Chris
Chris,
I have eight targets stored on my computer that I can print out on my printer. They are pretty nice targets. Some have like (20) 1/2″ dots on a grid and some have (1) 1/2″ dot on a grid, etc. They print out pretty close to scale. I could send them to you as an attachment to an email. You could then download them to a flashdrive and take them to any computer printer and print them out. Would be happy to do it.
You are certainly getting into the finer nuances of shooting small groups.
Geo,
I have sites stored in the favorites that have printable targets, so I can print them out. I even have a flash drive around somewhere. At work, I have a lap top that is mine to use with internet access and I can access sites there too. It is just something that I recently tried.
Thank you kindly for the offer though,… Chris
Chris
What I was thinking is your trigger finger could be moving the gun sideways as the trigger is pulled. Maybe canting the gun? But I guess your shooting rest probably stabilizes the gun good.
Chris
And got something else. Tryed this for you today just because I was curious.
I took the baffles out of my Condor SS.
Guess what my group size did improve.
And just to note. Now thinking about it i repositioned the baffles awhile back. To 30, 60 and 90° apart. That’s when I started getting better groups. And you have to see how the AirForce baffles are. They have a notch cut out on the inside down one side. Basically a off center cut. In other words air flow through the baffles.
And also just so you know. Absalutly no clipping of the baffles or end cap with my Condor SS.
So maybe exit air pressure from the barrel could be your problem on the Daystate like you have seen on other guns you owned too.
Just wanted to make you aware. You know like the air strippers we talked about in the past.
GF1,
It shoots better with the Huggett moderator,… but I will be checking it on and off in the future as the gun may be breaking in and changing what it likes. Unlike the M-rod or LGU,.. there is not much to change other than removing the Huggett and installing the thread protector.
Thanks again,… Chris
Chris
Ok. Didn’t remember if you tryed with it off.
Chris
And have you tryed your Daystate without the moderator?
B.B., I just wanted to thank you for this blog and for all I am learning from it. I had my eye on a vintage Crosman 102 but knew nothing about it so was afraid to bid on it. It just looked amazing to me with an awesome Quigley Down Under vibe. Then I found this series and felt informed enough to go for it. I am positive that I paid too much for it, if I was into flipping or collecting but this one was the perfect one for me as to the way it looks and I can’t wait for it to get here. Thanks man, I am sure I speak for many of us that we appreciate the knowledge that you impart unto us. I am also eyeballing a project Diana 27 with a droopy barrel and trashed stock to rebuild. We will see on that one.