by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
We The People commemorative BB pistol from Sig.
This report covers:
- The trigger reveals itself
- Sights
- Grip
- The test
- Daisy BBs
- Hornady Black Diamond
- Dust Devils
- Blowback
- Accuracy?
- Discussion
- Summary
Today is accuracy day for the Sig We The People 1911 BB pistol. Remember, there is a cartridge equivalent pistol, but I won’t be testing one of them.
Things I look at in a semiautomatic BB gun test
I do a lot of these BB-pistol tests and I thought I would take a moment to tell you what I look for. Since this is a BB gun the level of accuracy is not the same as I would expect from a pellet pistol. And it is certainly not what I expect from a single-shot pellet pistol! I know you guys are rolling soda cans with BB pistols like this, so that’s my criteria — is it that accurate and will you have fun shooting it that way? I do shoot it at paper but only for a visible record we can all see and discuss.
While pinpoint accuracy is not a requirement for a BB pistol, hitting the aim point certainly is. If a gun shoots somewhere other than the aim point and the sights cannot be adjusted to hit, it won’t be a lot of fun. Sure, you can learn where to aim and can eventually become quite good with any airgun, but if the BB naturally goes to where the sights are aiming it’s so much better!
The trigger reveals itself
I weighed the trigger for you in Part 2. It breaks at between 5 lbs. 7 oz. and 7 lbs. 4 oz. I said that was stiff, but it isn’t until I have to use the trigger while shooting for accuracy that things really reveal themselves. A trigger that breaks at 6+ pounds is not a target trigger. It took a lot of concentration with this one to not pull a shot off the target.
On the other hand, this trigger is perfect for rapid-fire drills. It’s heavy enough to prevent any accidents while moving quickly from target to target. I know that IDPA and PPC shooters prefer lighter triggers, but they train with them all the time. For a duffer like me, the heavy trigger is the ticket!
Sights
The sights are clear and bright. They are crisp enough for good target work and the white dots don’t interfere with a good sight picture when the target is illuminated.
Grip
I would also like to add that this BB pistol has a checkered front grip strap and checkered flat mainspring housing (the rear of the grip). Add to that the stars on both sides of the grips themselves and the We The People pistol is very grippy. It’s as nice as the grip on my Wilson Combat CQB 1911 that now retails for $2,800.
The test
I shot the pistol at 5 meters off a UTG Monopod rest. The target was illuminated brightly and I was seated, so the pistol had the best chance to shine. I aimed at 6 o’clock on the tiny black bull.
Daisy BBs
I began the test shooting 10 Daisy Premium Grade BBs. They grouped in 2.132-inches between centers. While that is a large group, it is well-centered on the aim point and would roll a can easily.
Ten Daisy Premium Grade BBs made this 2.132-inch group at 5 meters.
Hornady Black Diamond
The next BB I tried was the Hornady Black Diamond. This BB often turns in great results and today was no exception. They gave me the best group of the test — 10 shots in 1.475-inches. They landed slightly right of center and a little high on the target.
Ten Hornady Black Diamonds went into 1.475-inches at 5 meters. The group is a little high and a little to the right of center.
Dust Devils
The last BB I tested was the new frangible Air Venturi Dust Devil. These have done quite well in some BB guns, but today they came out third. The group measured 3.382-inches between centers. It is centered nicely on target, except for the one BB off to the right. Leave that one out and the other 9 are in 2.357-inches.
Dust Devils grouped 10 in 3.382-inches. Nine are in 2.375-inches. The main group is well-centered.
Blowback
I have to comment on the blowback, because I experienced it directly in this test. This handgun does bounce around a lot — especially if you do not hook your thumb over the ambidextrous safety in the classic 1911 hold when firing the gun! I would rank it up among the bouncy-est air pistols with blowback!
Accuracy?
I just heard from Bob Li of ASG. He read yesterday’s report of the CZ75 SP-01 Shadow and told me that BB pistols with blowback do suffer accuracy loss because of the blowback. It seems that with a blowback gun that is accurately made to copy the firearm, the parts inside the gun have begun to move before the BB exits the barrel. You don’t have that problem with a firearm whose bullet is going three times faster than a BB, but the slower BB will be affected. That will hold true for all BB pistols with blowback, regardless of the gun they copy.
Discussion
The We The People BB pistol has many good points and a couple that are not so good. Looks, feel, function and sight alignment are all in the plus column. The trigger and general accuracy, however, are not as good. This is a BB pistol that’s suited to a lover of the 1911 pistol, and also one who will use it for fast action shooting. It gets lots of shots on a cartridge and the velocity is pretty good. It handles BBs reliably and had no misfeeds throughout all testing.
Summary
Sig Sauer is a happening company. Not only are they making sidearms for the US military, they are also winning contracts for law enforcement agencies across the nation. Add to that the guns they make for the general public and you can see what a winning streak looks like.
But beyond even that, Sig has chosen to play in the airgun world. Some of their products are imports made to their specifications while others are brand new and made right here in the U.S. I will be traveling to Sig next week to tour their U.S. facilities and see exactly what they are doing. You can expect more to come from this company and you can expect a big report from me!
I shot this while at the Texas airgunn show, The one they had on the range did shoot high right, but once you held off, it was accurate, and made the plates fall with regularity.
Now the targets were reactive targets, so it was either a hit or a miss. No group size to measure.
Tom I see where Sig has a line of alloy domed pellets.
Do you intend to test these as well?
Hopefully they will be accurate in some guns like their ballistic match pellets.
45Bravo,
They also have lead pellets. They look to be H&N.
45Bravo,
I know about the domed pellets, but as yet I have no positive plans for a test. That doesn’t mean no, it just means not now.
But it is a worthy subject.
B.B.
B.B.,
A duffer? False modesty doesn’t suit you Sir!
Now I’m wondering if this can be shot from a Ransom Rest in comparison with a non blowback replica to show how big the group opens up due to the blowback action. Historically I can’t recall you doing a test on a non blowback replica.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
It’s been a long time, but there have been a few.
The P08 was tested in both forms, as was the Makarov. Back around 2010-2012.
B.B.
Siraniko,
When it comes to fast-action defense pistol shooting I am the very embodiment of a duffer. That is a discipline I have never pursued. I will do it now, for this report. but I am entirely in uncharted waters. I shoot pistols with one hand at bullseyes — not two-handed at larger targets for time.
B.B.
B.B.,
But neither were 1911 pistols. How much accuracy does one give up due to the blowback action? Your tests with the Brodax pistol produced 1½” groups so if I were to extrapolate from that then one could reasonably expect to cut the group size in half of there were no blowback action.
Siraniko
Siraniko
I have said all along that blow back has to mess with accuracy with pellet and bb pistols.
Siraniko,
1911 pistol? Are you talking airguns? Which models?
A good answer to your question would require a whole report. And there would be a lot of speculation, because most models don’t exist as both blowback and non-blowback. Not from the same manufacturer.
B.B.
B.B.,
I agree it would probably make at least a two part report. Then again it would be an apples and oranges comparison anyway. I’ll just contend myself with the rule of thumb that blowback pistols will produce a group size twice that of a non blowback pistol and that you can either have accuracy or realism but as yet you cannot have both in one product.
Siraniko
Hi B.B.,
When you visit SIG Sauer next week, please ask how things are coming along with their ASP Super Target single stroke pneumatic.
Earlier this year, I purchased one of the first new (U.S.-made) P210s, the firearm on which the shape and style of the ASP Super Target is based. I am anxious to get my hands on the airgun, and see how well it functions as a training tool for the P210.
General L,
You know I will!
B.B.
B.B.,
Diamonds on the grip panels? That would be pretty “blingy,” but they look like stars to me. :^)
Michael
Michael,
Fixed.
Thanks,
B.B.
The CZ P 07 BB pistol comes in no blowback (about $60) and blowback (about $100) flavors from the same mfr., all available thru Pyramyd AIR. There’s you two test subjects for the blowback accuracy comparison.
Motorman
St. Louis, MO
B.B.,
Thanks for clarifying the “requirements”, I had a bit of an adverse reaction to the size of the groups.
Gotch ya – minute if an asprin; pill container; soda can; paint can; garbage can… barn door 🙂
Kidding aside, your definition does help – a kick in the perspective does make one pay better attention.
Always said that “a quality product meets the customers requirements”. Customers have different requirements and that an item doesn’t meet my requirements doesn’t make it any less valuable. Sometimes I have to stop and remember that.
I am a single-shot pellet pistol guy (FWB 100) and shudder at the thought of trigger weights measured in pounds. Still, I read all of the blogs, whether they are applicable to my tastes or not, because there is always more to learn.
Appreciate that your reports help me in finding a products that meets my needs.
Cheers,
Hank
Hank,
I’m still waiting.
RR,
Haven’t forgotten 🙂
This pistol has higher velocity and stiffer recoil than the other 1911 pistols but a heavier trigger and poorer accuracy. I can shoot groups less than half the size with my Colt Commander and the WW2 Combat Vet, even with its’stick military sights. Not that Sig can’t make an accurate bb pistol , here is a target shot from Weaver stance at 25 feet with the 226, afull co2 cartridge of Umarex bbs
Michaelr,
Do you attribute the lesser accuracy of your “WtP” 1911 to its heavier recoil? Heavier trigger? Both?
From what I understand the Colt Commander and the Swiss Arms SA 1911 TRS are the most accurate blowback 1911 air pistols out at the moment, although I own neither.
I do have the 226, and despite its blowback and being a BB shooter, from 20 feet it is the equal of my non-blowback Umarex 1911 and 92fs CO2 pistols, and those are pellet shooters. At 30 meters, however, the differences begin to show.
Michael
It is the heavier trigger pull mainly, recoil not as much, the Sig 226 kicks hard but is more accurate. Would like to see aGold Cup adjustable sight , light trigger pull blowback pistol. We the people may set the stage for more blowback 1911 pistols.
B.B.,
We bought a new car a few days ago. In our old car, the button that held the seat belt tongue in place came loose and so the tongue was always quite low. In our new car, the tongue is at an appropriate height, but I keep getting in and reaching down low for the tongue. Force of habit.
One thing I appreciate about this 1911 and the others built on the same core is the accuracy of function. Of course there are differences between the firearm and the co2 replica, but I know I am familiar with the 1911 firearm and am comfortable with the grip safety and the thumb safety. They are in the correct place and work correctly.
I can’t say that about the Daisy Model 11 or the Crosman GI 1911. They are similar in size, shape and weight, but the aspects do not work as the firearm does makes them less than adequate for training and practice. Habits need to be transferable. (The two pistols mentioned are fine in themselves, just not for developing those transferable habits).
Of course, you and your readers know this, but I feel like adding my 2 cents.
~ken
Ken,
Boy oh boy! Are YOU going to relate to tomorrow’s blog! I use old cars as my analogy for old airguns..
Are you psychic?
B.B.
B.B.,
Great minds, and all that.
~ken
B.B.,
A firearm-shooting question for you and anyone else who cares to chime in.
There is a recently viral police dashcam video of a Las Vegas officer in pursuit of an alleged murderer in which the officer, in hot pursuit in downtown Las Vegas, shoots perhaps four or five times through his windshield at the rear window of the suspect’s car. https://www.yahoo.com/news/las-vegas-police-release-dashcam-183704629.html
Wise? Reckless?
My thought is how can you control where your shots are going if they have to pierce a slanted windshield right out of the muzzle? And if the shots go crazy wild, you ARE in downtown Las Vegas, where at least a few of the bystanders have to be innocent, given the law of averages.
Michael
Michael;,
I wasn’t there so I shouldn’t say, but there is no way shooting through a windshield will ever go where you expect it to. Unless your target is pressed against the other side of the glass, that’s a risky shot to take. Windshields have a barrier material in them that keeps the glass from shattering in an accident. It will also deflect bullets.
B.B.
Michael,
Sounds a bit reckless, but it seem the officer pulled it off.
I suppose some things are relative. I don’t know much about the suspects, but the news points toward them being armed and violent.
Hard call.
~ken
He did indeed pull it off, although he did so through a time-proven technique all police practice endlessly: a pit maneuver. After getting the suspect’s vehicle stopped (although he was in reverse and trying to get back to fleeing), the officer reloaded and shot at the suspect’s vehicle through the squad car’s open driver’s window.
It is a tough job to be sure.
Michael
Michael,
“to be sure”
Thanks,
~ken
Ken
There is a reason why it’s not standard procedure.
If the original shooting was just a random shooting and the public was in eminent danger I suppose it could be considered justified. If the vehicle was stolen they could probably just jump out and disappear if not pursued.
It obviously escalated into something unexpected with over 40 shots fired. A lot of police departments don’t even get into high speed pursuits because of the danger involved and shots fired ? well in the country OK, the city, not so pretty good. His pursuit may have initiated the shooting.
My opinion, If there was sufficient surveillance available for ID and following a vehicle through the streets it would be uncalled for. Be nice to see how the investigation turns out.
Bob,
Good points.
~ken
Bob,
Good points.
No car can outrun a radio.
Michael
Michael, my first thought was can the guy hear normally? 9mm is amongst the loudest of handgun ammunition coming in at 159.8 db compared to .357 mag at 164.3 db. Of course, I don’t know the distance the microphone was, where it was positioned and what weighted scale the testing was done at. I found the data at a site “earplug superstore”. As for trying to hit what he was aiming at, my opinion is his emotions were well “amped” up over the incident where I understand the perps were shooting at pursuing law enforcement and overrode his normal common sense.
Fred formerly of the DPRoNJ now in GA
Michael,
What happens in ‘Vegas stays in ‘Vegas!
So maybe that rule stays in effect at smaller scales in ‘Vegas too!
You can see how AMPED the officer is just by how he moves his hands on the steering wheel as well as moving his pistol toward the cars windscreen. Fortunately no one was run over or killed in a crash, as well as no errant bullets from either side killing Innocent bystanders…if such a thing exists in Sin City!
shootski
Shootski,
To me, unless that tactic was [proven to actually work],.. (you will hit what you are shooting at?), it looked really stupid to me. After all,.. it was not like it blew out the entire windshield , thus giving an unobstructed view/shot. Hang it out the window and do some “off the hip” shooting would have been my first instinct. Stupid too. Like someone said, you can’t outrun radios and cam footage. Or a helicopter.
It looked reckless in all aspects.
Chris
Chris
Hey buddy, how are you? When can we expect a report on the Red Wolf?
Carl,
You might have missed my update last weekend.(look it up for more detail) I did put 60 shots through it, with on paper at 25, sight in at 39 and some 50 yard shooting. There is nothing about the rifle to not like. The new MTM rest raises the shooting position about 3″, so I will have to do something on my shooting table and/or seat. The fully adjustable Sportsmatch rings work great and the FFP scope is looking good too. So lots of new gear that I was just getting used to for the (first) time.
This weekend F,S,S are all calling for rain. Family function on Sat. Shop today. Sun. AM is looking like my next time out. Indoor target making and some chrony work if I get 100% rained out, which is looking very likely.
Got the lag bolt spinner in the mail Wed. I do believe. Thank you! Looking forwards to adding it to the other 2 versions. They work great!
I ran across a breech seal for the TX that I got as a spare for the TX when it was brand new. I will be dropping that in an envelope and get that off to you this weekend/Mon.
The hip that was “out” for a week is almost back to 100%. About a week out and another week of nerve/muscle recovery. Now I am back to (just) my usual aches and pains,… 🙂
On your spinners,…. will you be continuing onward with your venture? Any new thoughts on products or marketing expansion? Did you meet any contacts at the Ohio show that were willing to test and review?
The guards look good by the way and just make sense that they are part of the spinners.
That is about it for any kind of an update. Hope you are doing fine as well,…… Chris
B.B. (and you experts out there)
Blow back on a bb or pellet pistol makes accuracy suffer due to the bb not leaving the barrel util after the slide (parts) start moving due to the bb/pellet gun being slower than a powder burner…That got me thinking crazy thoughts. Could it be designed so that the blow back is “delayed” until after the BB has cleared the barrel? I would think it could, but I’m no engineer.
Doc
Doc,
While not familiar with the specific mechanics, it sounds like a good remedy to the slower moving projectile problem. I like it,… at least in concept. 😉 Too much delay and those comparing it to a firearm would probably find any noticeable delay unacceptable though. Good thinking at any rate.