by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
The B3 underlever from China.
This report covers:
- The test
- RWS Superdomes
- Sig Match Ballistic Alloy
- Firing behavior
- RWS Meisterkugeln
- Qiang Yuan Training pellets
- Trigger
- Summary
This is accuracy day! Today we will learn how accurate my new/old Chinese B3 underlever spring-piston air rifle is. This is the rifle with the replaced breech seal that we learned in Part 3 is such an easy fix. Today we see whether it matters.
The test
I shot at 10 meters off a sandbag rest. I used the classic artillery hold with the off hand next to the front of the triggerguard and rested on the sandbag.
I resolved to shoot just 5 shots, unless the pellet looked like it might group. If it did I would go to 10 shots.
RWS Superdomes
First up was the RWS Superdome. The first shot hit the target at the lower edge of the bull, but shot two hit above the 10-ring. I shot the next three shots and then looked at the group and decided this is not the right pellet for this rifle. The 5-shot group later measured 1.37-inches between centers.
The B3 put 5 RWS Superdomes into 1.37-inches at 10 meters.
No sense going any farther with Superdomes. Oh, well! I have never had any luck with Chinese springers. I will say that the rear sight was easiere to use than I thought it wouuld be — being that close to my eye.
My next Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellet hit very low, so I adjusted the rear sight up quite a bit. Even then it didn’t raise the point of impact up to the aim point.
Sig Match Ballistic Alloy
Now I shot 5 Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellets. These hit on the white paper below the bull, so I saw the first hole, but when I fired shot two I couldn’t see where it hit. I looked through my spotting scope and there was no other hole. Oh, well! Shot number 3 opened the first hole slightly, leading me to suspect I might have a shooter and also I might have just paired it with the best pellet. Two more shots confirmed my suspicions.
I looked at the group through the spotting scope and it looked so good that I went down and photographed it. I don’t know precisely how large it was, but a dime would easily cover it! It’s maybe a quarter-inch between centers. What irony that the B3 does best with pellets that cost more per tin than the rifle!
Just a quick pic to show what the first 5 shots did at 10 meters.
I then went back and fired 5 more shots into the same group. The 10 shots landed in a group that measures 0.577-inches between centers at 10 meters. I know that isn’t the best group I have ever fired, but with a cheap Chinese springer, it feels like Olympic gold!
Ten Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellets from the B3 made this 0.577-inch group at 10 meters.
Firing behavior
This B3 fires quick. There is no vibration after the shot, but the piston stops with a big jolt, which is a lot of vibration packed into a millisecond. If I tune the rifle I will see what can be done to reduce that jolt.
RWS Meisterkugeln
Next I tried 5 RWS Meisterkugeln pellets. After seeing the success with the Sig pellets, I was hoping for another miracle. I nearly got it when 9 pellets went into 0.657-inches at 10 meters, but shot 10 opened the group to 1.344-inches. Still, this is a pellet worth further testing.
Ten RWS Meisterkugeln went into 1.344-inches at 10 meters, with 9 in 0.657-inches.
And, just to keep the record straight, I did shoot 5 pellet first and evaluate the group before finishing it.
Qiang Yuan Training pellets
The last pellet I tested was the Chinese Qiang Yuan Training pellet that has proven to be such a superior pellet over the last year. They aren’t cheap, at $10 for a tin of 500; but they aren’t that expensive, either. They hold their own with other world-class target pellets costing much more and are always worth trying in a new airgun.
In the B3 they did okay, but nothing spectacular. The first 5 went into a horizontal line that was 0.624-inches. I could measure that one because it was still there at the end of the shooting. Ten made a group measuring 0.978-inches between centers. That’s okay, but in light of the other two pellets that did better, it’s not good enough.
Ten Qiang Yuan Training pellets made this 0.978-inch group at 10 meters.
Trigger
The B3 trigger is single stage, but crisp and reasonably light. I can use it as it is. And that’s a good thing, because these triggers are not easy to improve. Their parts are case-hardened, with shells that are often thin and don’t stand up to stoning well.
Summary
I am surprised by the accuracy of this rifle. In all my years with airguns and having seen and shot many Chinese underlever and sidelever springers, this is the first one I would call reasonably accurate. I once put a Lothar Walther barrel on a TS-45 and made it into an accurate rifle, but this is the first time I have seen a Chinese barrel stand up on its own.
So I will take this rifle apart and see what can be done to make it shoot smoother. At least when I’m done I know I’ll have a decent airgun, if not a world-beater. What more can you ask of a $30 air rifle?
B.B.,
If Pyramydair can sell pellets at 3 tins and get the 4th free there might be a marketing ploy somewhere where you buy 1 sleeve/sausage worth and get a budget airgun free.
That’s reasonable accuracy already for something so cheaply made. “The marvel is not that the bear dances well, but that the bear dances at all.” — Russian proverb.
Siraniko
Siraniko, that’s great! I love that proverb! =D
Dave
Now that picture is cool.
Thanks for no tutu’s.
Roger that; no tutu pics! #_# Hahaha! =D
—^. 🙂
GF1,
The tracking info on my compressor indicates it should arrive Tuesday.
Jim M.
Jim M.
Good deal. Will be waiting to hear what you think about it.
BB
Hmm. Smoother shot cycle from a (tune)= better acurracy from a easier to shoot gun.
I think we are getting somewhere now.
There is always something about making something rough and crude, and bringout the hidden gem..
45Bravo,
Yes, pursuit of the hidden gem. It is amazing what you can accomplish with some TLC, spit and polish.
Hank
B.B.
Seems kind of strange to feed your cheap gun expensive quality pellets.
It is more accurate than I would have guessed…
-Yogi
Yogi,
Not to me. I always try to find which works best. If it is the cheapo brand, so be it. More often than not that is not the case though. I was once purchasing a supply of top of the line RWS wadcutters for my FWB 601 and Izzy 46M and the guy asked me what I would be doing with them. When I told him I would just be plinking, he informed me there were less expensive pellets I could use. I then informed him I was very serious about my plinking.
RR,
…” I was very serious about my plinking.”
Yup, me too – my favorite shooting activity. I also do a lot of what I call “snipeing” where the targets are grasshoppers, wasps and other small targets at random ranges.
Don’t know if snipeing is a generally used term or not. That is what we called it when we were kids. We would spend the whole morning and a can of pellets shooting grasshoppers. Great fun!
Hank
Hank
Yep for sure snipeing. Use to do it too as a kid and still do.
Hank,
Drop the e in there and you are good.
Nowadays there is an airgun sport called mini sniping. It started out with using 10 meter rifles and shooting 9mm shell casings from 10 yards out to 35 yards. Standing, sitting, kneeling and prone is fine as long as the rifle is not resting on a bipod, etc. Since it has not yet become an officially sanctioned event like field target, any equivalent power air rifle will do. Many like using little toy soldiers.
At our annual GTA Fun Shoot they have a competition shooting paint balls. Sproingers shoot at 25 yards and PCPs shoot at 50 yards. I think this year they will have an 100 yard shoot for the big bores.
RR,
I can see that “mini sniping” could be quite exciting if one was to get themselves in the right frame of mind first. Maybe even watch a few of the “Sniper” series movies to help set the mood. (All in fun of course). The right frame of mind makes all the difference. I find that if I am off for the day, it often has to do with me not being in the right frame of mind. (tired, busy, distracted, etc.)
Your GTA shoot sounds like fun.
Chris
You got to get that under control.
When it’s shooting time the other things have to be out of the mind.
When I shoot. That’s what I’m doing is blocking those things out. In other words it’s time to relax.
GF1,
Hey dude,… we all do the best we can do at the time and (hopefully) always strive for better.
That is the goal anyways. Never lose sight of the goal.
Chris
The point I’m trying to make is you need to be 100% into your shooting at that given time.
Leave the other behind. In other words don’t even shoot if you can’t give it your all.
This is one of my all-time favorites of B.B.’s. Everyone should read it:
/blog/2011/08/mini-sniping/
Michael
Chris, its the “zen” of shooting that you need to find 🙂
Yeah, frame of mind is critical. I used to stop for a bow hunt on my way home from work. Sometimes I couldn’t make the transformation from “high-tech worker” to “predator” and would just give it up and go home.
Agree with GF1. Once I determine that it is safe to shoot and I commit to taking a shot, from the moment that I “lock on” there is nothing but the target. From the shot to the follow through the focus is 100% – to the point that I am not aware of the muzzle-blast and recoil of even my 30-06. Stance, hold, compensation and shooting are all controlled by my subconscious. If I am not 100% focused then I consciously interfere with my subconscious and will usually blow the shot. “ZEN” actually sums it up pretty well.
Love sniping – acorns are excellent targets as are dandelions and stuff like that. A box of Honey Comb cereal is snipers heaven – hang them on a string and blast them while they move in the breeze. …OK, so I am easily entertained 🙂
Happy Easter!
Hank
Hank,
I (have) found it and I (do) know what it is. Yes,… Zen. I guess that I do not shoot enough to get “there” on a regular basis. I need to be retired already! Bout’ 10 to go on that,…. 🙁
I do have the wind flags to look forward to (thanks to you!). Plus, I have a set of Coduece spinners. Plus, all my bright orange cans set out at 30, 50, 70 and 100 yards. It should be a fun year of shooting.
On the side, over the weekend, I did some research on hold over and hold under. In the process, I found that B.B. prefers to “click” to adjust as opposed to the afore mentioned method of hold under/hold over. From what I gathered, with good reason.
I found it to be interesting and something worth consideration. The basic idea,… “guessing” at hold over is (less) precise than “clicking” your way to the cross hairs being spot on.
Thanks for the comment,… as always. Chris
Chris,
I read that blog from 2009, all three parts. I think with the less expensive scopes most of us are using on our rifles, we would be better off not “clicking” to compensate. I have found that when I try to zero my scope, I don’t get the expected results. For example, if I am shooting a target at 25 yards and my POI is 1/2″ to the right of the bull and I adjust my scope left 8 clicks, I will invariably be off to the left and have to adjust back. It seems like every time I make any scope adjustments with the w/e knobs I end up having to tweak the zero back in again. It seems also that I have to make a few shots for the scope to settle into a repeatable POI. Maybe on $500+ scopes clicking to compensate would be feasible.
Hi Chris,
I agree with B.B. that clicking is more precise than guesstimating but that presumes that you have the time to be twiddling knobs and (as GEO points out) that the hardware is of sufficient quality to faithfully react to your adjustments.
If I am testing at specific range I just re-sight for that range.
Same with my parallax adjustment. For serious testing I set to max magnification and fine tune the parallax. When hunting, I set it for 25-30 yards and leave it unless I get into an extra long-range situation and I have time to give the AO a quick twist.
For competition Field Target shooting clicking and ranging is the way to go.
I was watching a couple of squirrels yesterday. When they are foraging they only sit still for 1/2 to 1-1/2 seconds (to do a safety-check) before they are moving again. For my style of shooting I set a 3/4″ kill zone for the rifle and learn the trajectory. That way I can make an educated guess and quick shot. No time for messing with the equipment.
To test to see of your scope is suitable for click-shooting, setup a target at a comfortable range and sight in on the bull. Dial up (say) 5 clicks, aim at the bull and shoot; click right 5 and shoot; down 5; down 5; left 5; left 5; up 5 etc to to “draw” a box with center marks (eight shots) and finish with the last shot at to bull. Theoretically ( 🙂
), you will have a square box when you are done. Fun exercise that.
Happy Monday Chris.
Hank
RR
Wonder why not rested.
Most military snipers are rested when shooting.
GF1,
It is just one of the “rules”. I guess it is just more difficult. Maybe it comes out of the rules for 3P competition shooting.
To the best of my knowledge there are no official mini sniping competitions, so if a few guys wanted to get together and shoot some, they could make up their own rules. If you are by yourself there are no rules, but you may want to challenge your own skill level.
RR
Rules suck.
You got to make it your own. 🙂
GF1,
That is usually what happens around here. 😉
RR
🙂
RR,
Drop the “e” – right, got it 🙂
Between English, French and Dutch (some Japanese and a bit of Russian) my pronunciation is often off and my spelling is atrocious (thank heaven for Spell-Checkers though I confuse them often enough).
Do enjoy sniping – it probably accounts to 75% of the pellets I shoot.
Hank
Hank
Same here.
“Do enjoy sniping – it probably accounts to 75% of the pellets I shoot.”
In reading the comments about yesterday’s pistol, there is one thing no one touched on.
It supposedly has a 3 chamber silenceair noise dampener on it.
Pyramid rates it at a 3 medium.
But it also rates the 1377 as a 3 medium.
We shall see if Tom can tell us is there any difference in the attenuation between the two designs.
If umarex starts to sell replacement parts, it may be an avenue to mods on a 1377, that would be shorter than adding a TKO brake to a 1377.
If the scilenceair design is effective.
45Bravo,
Tom’s ears cannot detect any difference in the sound. I can already tell you that. 🙂
B.B.
BB,
Could you take a peek down the pipe and see if there is a baffled section before the muzzle?
RR,
Just did and it looks like there is.
B.B.
45Bravo,
Are they kidding? So they are saying the barrel sleeve does not reach all the way to the muzzle? Either the documentation department has made a real booboo or this thing is sliding downhill into the abyss faster and faster.
I have no personal experience with the pistol, but am going off of the description on the PA website. It would be neat if it did incorporate a moderator, an I think it would be the only multi-pump to be doing so.
45Bravo,
BB just answered my query and it does have baffles.
BB ,
Keep in mind that rifle might have a leather piston seal , a little Ballistol will swell it up. Leaky seal will cause it to shoot hard. Some are synthetic and some are leather.
Gene,
That’s what I will be looking for. I did oil the rifle well with Pellgunoil before the velocity test.
B.B.
YEAH! We’re going behind the curtain!
BB
Just a pondering, the pellets that prove to be accurate in this rifle were years away from being available when this rifle was new.
Gerald
Participant/Gerald,
This would be the story of the Crosman 160 all over again. /blog/2012/08/crosmans-160-part-1/
Siraniko
Gerald,
Good observation! As Siraniko already said, it’s the Crosman 160 all over.
B.B.
Sort of.
BB,
I do not know if it has been mentioned before, but my pure speculation is that the original intent of this air rifle was as a training rifle. It has a very strong resemblance to a SKS.
RR,
Well, I never heard that is was, but I do believe the Chinese have used air rifles for training. I think I saw something In Smith’s book.
B.B.
BB,
I put the nozzle from Ballistol right into the compression chamber and let it rip !!!! No need to worry about dieseling in such a low powered gun , those seals can really drink up the oil. Oil , then let it stand for about an hour then start shooting.. These are fun guns as long as people ALWAYS HOLD ONTO THE COCKING LEVER WHEN LOADING. We jokingly refer to these as Chinese finger removers . At the gunshop Jerry used to buy 20 at a time , everyone loves cheap stuff . The first guns didn’t even have a bear-trap mechanism.
The B3 has less power than an R7, but more cocking effort than an R9. It is lubricated with bacon grease. It is uglier than sin with a stock made from old pallets, the nail holes plugged with wood putty then the whole thing covered with a yucky varnish that looks like it was painted on with a horse‘s tail. Next the child labourers who assemble these things in Chinese sweatshops stick warning labels on the butts that make the pieces of corporate vandalism stamped into Weihrauch cylinders look like works of art in comparison. Oh, and despite the fixed barrel the B3 doesn‘t group well, not even at 10m, except with expensive pellets. To top it all off, it has a reputation for being a slippery-seared finger-guillotine. I don‘t care how cheap it is, how did this P.O.S. acquire such a cult following?
+1 Bob,
You said it much more articulately that I could!
-Y
Wow Bob! You pretty much summed it all up in one paragraph 🙂
Bob,
Please don’t hold it in like that. You have to learn to express your real feelings. 😉
B.B.
Bob,
You answered your own question.
One of the most popular rifles in the United States is the Mattelomatic.
Jeeps are some of the most expensive, least reliable vehicles on the road, but everybody wants one.
There are many motorcycles that are better built and far more reliable than a Harley, but I own one.
There is no sense to it all. It just is.
RR
Well at least you finnished off your comment right.
RR,
Those products you mention all have a coolness/prestige factor at least. The B3 doesn’t have that. I reckon it’s purely the low price that makes it irresistible to people who should know better. It’s the airgun equivalent of the 40,000 calorie, shard-filled doughnut 😉
B.B.,
It would be really something if you could find an inexpensive pellet that did quite well with this B3. As you pointed out, there is irony in it doing so well with a tin of pellets that cost about as much as the air rifle itself. After all, the legend of these air rifles is that one can get a great shooter for very little money. That very little money becomes not so little in a hurry if the pellets have to be pricey ones.
Are there any medium-priced pellets that you have found to be similar to the Sigs in design/proportions/weight that are considerably less expensive?
Michael
Michael
B.B.
Please consider cleaning the barrel on this one. I know you don’t like to do that anymore but look at the dirt rings around the edges of some of the pellet impact holes in the white areas of your target photographs.
Who knows what kinds of Gunk have been blown into the barrel from the questionable lubricants in the compression chamber over the years.
Feinwerk,
I get those marks from pellets shot from a freshly cleaned barrel. I think it is graphite or whatever more expensive pellet makers use to prevent oxidation and to lubricate their pellets. I don’t think it’s crud. I even rely on those marks to help me measure the group size with some round nosed pellets because they don’t cut clean holes like wadcutters do.
Half
Or lead dust.
My early TS-45 Side Lever would shoot about 1/2 inch groups at 15 yards. I still have it but the trigger became unsafe so it is currently in pieces. I had a lot of fun with these jolly junkers. As I have mentioned, I sold them for a couple years. I would buy them in lots of five or ten. That way, I saved enough on shipping to make a profit.
Mike
The more I hear about this gun the more it sounds like a trainer.
Of what not to get!
GF1,
I agree with Bob higher up the chain here. “Of what not to get”,.. as you say,…. can be “training”,.. in and of itself. Until we ever knew better, we would buy anything. Shopping your way up the “food chain” is another lesson and actually similar. Quite costly as well.
Chris
Right. And not only these things. You don’t want to know what I spent on cars, motorcycles and RC planes. And not only those things.
No matter what a person does or is into. Even if research is done. There is personal preferences that come into play too. So no matter what. It still takes a bit of time and money to get something in your hand that feels right to you.
You, me, BB or anyone else can recommend things. But in the end it’s what I or you or anyone else wants.
But for sure you will learn to stay away from something one way or another. As I say. Time Will Tell.
Ruger used to make some cheap hollow points that work pretty well in the B3 I had previous to this one, really well in a xs46u at 50 yards. They don’t make them anymore for some unknown reason. As for expensive pellets, the JSB 8.44 4.52 diameter shot about the best in my B3. I would suggest mounting a Bug Buster scope for maximum accuracy.
Brent
What size groups did you get?
Right around an inch or an inch and a quarter from my xs46u, which I thought was pretty amazing for a hollow point pellet.
Those were the best groups. I got them from Wally world, but they don’t carry them anymore.
Brent
Yep that is pretty good.
Brent,
Those pellets were hard to find for awhile last year but they can be had at the Strum Ruger website now and all of the Meijer stores in my area of KY. I know because they shoot sub .25″ groups at 12 yds from both of my Daisy CMP 853s. As soon as I made this discovery I hit all the stores in my area to stock up and went into an absolute panic when they were all out. They had no idea why they were out and didn’t know when or if they would get any in. I searched all the normal places online with no luck. Then I just did a Google search and got a hit on the Ruger site. They were over priced and they only had 8 tins but I bought ’em all. I have since added to my supply from Meijer.
Half
Halfstep,
Yes, they were pretty amazing for the 5 or 6 bucks that you paid. The Winchester round noses have also changed. They are now made in Spain. I’ve shot a couple of tins. The head sizes are still inconsistent. I haven’t shot them enough to form an opinion. The hollow points were pretty good in my Benjamin Titan XS.
I just checked at the Ruger website. They wanted $6.95 for a tin of 250. I’ll buy some if they start showing up in the local Wally World at a lower price again. Otherwise, you can get 500 jsb 8.44 4.52 diameter heads for $11.99 from Pyramid.
Just got through with a hard days night of 4 wheel’n.
Not to much clean left if you can see.
And of course some shoot’n inbetween. 🙂
Gf1
So dirty took me a second to see ur quads clearly. Looks like a blast! It was pretty nice up here today, must have been even better down there. 😉
Punchin Holes
Definitely had a good time today.
It’s been up and down on the weather. We had a bunch of rain the last 4 or so days. But today was me and the families first day of for the Easter weekend. It was warmwr than it’s been and no rain and sun shine.
It was overdue for some down home fun if you know what I mean.
GF1,
That looks like a Jackson Pollock painting.
Half
Halfstep
Well that it does.
I wonder if his paintings have any hidden true life messages?
GF1,
Only in his head.
RR
But I bet he had more money than we will ever see.
GF1,
Maybe, but what good is it now?
RR
Depends I. What he did with it.
Hmmm…. The only thing I like about this is the hint of accuracy. I would shoot cheap pellets to terrorize the local feral can population ( I would have to get pretty close to pick off some of the weaker slower cans) and shoot the sigs formally, if I had to own this rifle.
Now if this is a cheap vehicle for tuning in any shape or form I could be game. Depends on the internals and the meager “reward”.
Has anyone heard about the Nova Vista Freedom? I remember quite the discussion about a marauder based multi pump on this blog a while back. Well to be honest this rifle checks quite a few boxes for me. If I find one positive review it may be enough to sway me. 🙂 Although it is comfortabley above the $300 dog pile of quality entry level pcp rifles, I will reserve judgment until I get more info.
Punchin Holes
You know that’s a self contained pcp. It’s not really a multi-pump in a sense.
Here is something close to what I’m talking about for a modern multi-pump. If it had a shroud i would buy it.
/product/seneca-dragonfly-multi-pump-air-rifle?m=4514
Punchin Holes,
Ted over at Holdover VLog will be doing a video review of this air rifle in the near future. Here he talks about it a bit at the IWA Show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfzVUdmVAeI
If it was available right now and I had the money, I would probably go ahead and get one myself just to try it out. Fortunately, neither is the case. I will just have to wait and see if it will be worthy of a room at RidgeRunner’s Home For Wayward Airguns.
RR,
I like it, but do not care for the looks a whole lot. It looks heavy, but someone said that it weighs in at 8.8#. Not bad, but not light either. I figure that the bulky look is due to compound pumping linkage and/or a 2-3 stage pump mech., that is hidden under the pump arm.
Keep us posted as I do often get over to other sites. I am interested in it just out of pure curiosity.
Chris,
A local airgunsmith bought one in .177 and was pretty favorably impressed. It was consistently hitting spinners at 35 yards. He didn’t like the trigger but that’s probably because triggers are his speciality. I’m sure he’ll work on the trigger when he has time.
Brent,
Thank you. At least that is one real persons’ review that we can trust. I am just assuming that there must be a 2 or 3 stage pump stuffed up in there. Kind of like a mini-Hill pump I would guess.
If you look on GTA, there should be a link to a Vimeo on a .22 Freedom test.
Hey Everybody,
Here is the link:
https://vimeo.com/260169742
Sorry, you’ll have to paste it. For some reason, I couldn’t copy it as a hyperlink.
Brent
BB
And how come no more reports on the Dust Devil bb’s?
Pyramyd AIR now has them listed under their new products. But no release date yet.
Bet their on their way soon.
Forgot to post the link.
/product/air-venturi-dust-devil-frangible-bbs-1-500-ct?p=1477
GF1,
They are expensive for bbs, but not so high to not be considered. I would like to try them in my 99.
RR
And maybe you will.
Maybe one day we will hear if you did.
🙂
GF1,
You probably will.
RR
Yep.
Geo,
Regarding our (prior) conversation regarding:
Does a person use hold over (or) hold under at close range? (say 10 yards, with a rifle that has been sighted in at say 35 yards,.. at which point there is neither hold over or hold under. The reticle is perfectly centered)
You say to use hold over (cross hairs are above the target).
I say to use hold under (cross hairs are below the target).
I am having a hard time coming up with a way to explain it or show it. Chairgun should show it, but I am not sure what data point to pull from the chart. One thing for sure, and perhaps the most obvious, is to shoot at paper. If your scope is zeroed at 35 yards and you need no hold over or hold under at 35 yards,… I think that your pellet will hit high at 10.
Will hit high…. therefore the muzzle must be lowered to get the pellet to hit lower,…. at which point you will also be lowering the sight picture that you see in the scope,…. the cross hairs then dip below the target (hold under) instead of on or above the target.
I thought GF1 might weigh in, but he does not check the RSS and is sometimes not aware of discussions going on in past blogs.
GF1,.. Do you use hold (under) at closer distances?
10 yards is almost a mute point anyways, because the pellet has already entered into a 1″ kill zone at 7.7 yards and stays within the 1″ kill zone until 40.2 yards. (old .22 Maximus data, prior reg. install) That is with the sight in distance optimized to keep the pellet in the kill zone continuously.
Of note too, I think it was Halfstep that tossed up a Chairgun chart on an older blog. Something was way out of whack on that chart as there was a huge gap in the bars at the bottom. This is also illustrated in the pellet exiting and reentering (outside and above) the 1″ kill zone. I believe the sight in/zero data needed adjusted which would bring those 2 bars together and keep the pellet within the 1″ kill zone continuously for a period.
*** I had thought that BB might weigh in and give a quick answer,.. but,… I think he is sitting back and watching to see how we hash it out and to see what we know or don’t know. No,.. BB would never do that,… or would he? 😉
I will try to follow things today but I will be spending the whole day prepping and cooking for Sunday. I did the best I could do trying to explain my point. Sorry I could not do it better. Perhaps someone will magically swoop in and explain it all?
ChrisU,
I think Geo said 1/2″ kill zone so that’s what I used. I looked at the bars at the bottom of the chart and if you are referring to the Point Blank Range bars, I don’t see anything out of place. Can you explain. I don’t really use this app but I think I want to start, so I need to understand.
Half
Halfstep,
The bars at the bottom correlate to the shaded areas up in the kill zone. You want that pellet to stay in the kill zone as long as possible (and) you want it to be ((continuous)). Adjust the zero range and see what that does. The bars will spread or come together depending on what data you input on the zero range.
Plug in whatever # until they come together and that is your sight in range.
/blog/2018/03/umarex-gauntlet-part-6/
I pasted your chart when on full screen, but do not know how it will post.
That is how I do it.
Opps,.. it appears that cut/copy/paste may have been in order? Everyone else, just scroll down until you see a trajectory graph. I think it is the only one in the blog. I may try again.
/blog//wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Chairgeourban.jpg
That worked,… select all, copy, paste
I am a computer genius!!!! NOT! ;(
Chris U,
I figured out what I did wrong. Here’s a new chart.
Halfstep,
There is still something not right with your graph. See the pink area? That should be continuous without a break in between. Also, the PBR bar at the bottom shows the same break.
The only difference I can see between your graph and mine is that I used 50 yards as the end range. But your graph just doesn’t look right. Try this. Go to the top and click on “Toolbox”. A menu will drop down and select “Zero Range Functions” and choose “Optimum Zero Range”. The program will do some calculations and produce a chart and graph based on the information you input.
Give it a shot and see if you don’t get a better graph. This program is fun to experiment with different scenarios, like a different weight pellets, or faster speeds, etc.
Forgot to post my graph for comparison…
Geo,
Good looking graph. That is pretty much what mine look like.
Bar at bottom is solid,.. no gap.
Geo,
You and Chris got different graphs because you have the app set up to CALCULATE the zero range. I was not trying to do that because I didn’t know how for one thing and for another, I was simply trying to see if you, Geo, would need to hold OVER at 10 yds. That was the issue on the table at the time. All I had as data points were what you published, zero at 35 yds using jumbo heavies. You didn’t provide the velocity that you were firing at, but since you asked for the velocity that my two guns were firing at and you are sans chronograph, I used the average of my two guns. That’s why I have the gaps in the PBR in my first graph and why I qualified my results so extensively. I had two trajectories because I was unintentionally doing a comparison. I got rid of the comparison and that left only the trajectory that I was concerned with. The PBR line was still split because I was still trying to prove the same point, you must holdover at 10 yds under the circumstances that you published. After ChrisUSA pointed out that he wanted to see something different and coached me (sort of) on how to do it , I did and got the results that he was looking for. As it turns out it is what you were looking for in addition to my position on the hold over issue, so now I think everyone should be content.
Since you are much more familiar with this app than I, can you explain why I can’t find the images after I save them. The folder ” IMAGES” in the ChairGun folder doesn’t exist. When I search for the image by name it is not found. I have been doing a screen shot with Shift PrtScn and then opening and saving with Paint. Using ChairGun 4 on a Windows 7 Pro machine.
Thanks for any help, Half
P.S. Did you see the post about the leaking bolt probe seal on my gun?
Halfstep,
Thanks a bunch for all the effort you have made to help us resolve this dilemma. Chris and I were not trying to criticize your graph because of the gap in the PBR. We were just trying to help you determine why the graph didn’t appear normal. My graph did have the speed shown which was my guess of 750 fps. I know you that you were tending to agree that shooting at 10 yards would indeed require a holdover to be on center of the target. Other than you and GF1, no one else really had an answer or a comment. Chris and I are still discussing his last post about the test he did at 24′ and at 41′. His results were pretty puzzling to me.
In regards to creating images with Chairgun, once you actually save an image with a name the folder will be created and the image name will appear in that folder. The folder will be in
C:\ProgramData\Chairgun4\Images. The file name will be “whatever.png”.
I use a simple little program called “printkey” to create screenshots and save them as a JPEG filename. I have had this little freeware program and used it for years. The nice thing about PrintKey is that you can use it to create an image of any area of the screen you want. If you would like to try the program I can email it to you. It’s only a single file and you just double click to start it. I put a shortcut for it in my Startup folder so it loads and is available anytime. It is used with the “printscreen button” on your keyboard. This is how I made the images I posted it in the blog. It much easier than the method you used too. I will post an image of the menu in Chairgun showing the drop down menu to create an image with Chairgun too. Either way will work. But PrintKey will work to create an image of anything on your screen in one step.
Yes, I did see you post about the leaking probe o-ring. Once that is repaired maybe the two Urbans will be closer in velocities. Oh, and now that you mention it, I do remember that a little bag of spare o-rings was included with either my Urban, or the hand pump.
Happy Easter – He is risen 🙂
Geo
Geo,
I have been saving the screen as image. And the next step is to name the file and the extension is a .png and the default folder is Images and the path is C:\ProgramData\Chairgun4\Images. Where I’m running into trouble is I don’t have a C:\ProgramData file. I tried working around that by saving to a folder that I knew existed. The image wasn’t there when I looked. I tried saving to my desktop and I didn’t show up there either. I did a search using the ” search programs and files” thingamajig on the Start button and it returned no results. I searched for all .png files and looked through them with no joy there either. So that’s why I asked for your help. Any ideas?
Happy Easter, Half
Halfstep,
Sorry you are having difficulty locating your images folder. It can be difficult to find things in Windows sometimes. I can definitely help you with that.
First off, Chairgun will only save it’s images in the designated folder it creates. So you won’t be able to save them in any other folder using the Chairgun program. And Chairgun assigns a default extension to the file of .png. If you did in fact save an image with a name using Chairgun4, it will be located in that “Images” folder. You will have to find the image using the Windows explorer. Chairgun4 will give you the option to save the image, but no option to open one.
The reason you are not seeing the “ProgramData” folder is that it is a “hidden” folder by default. I know this may be getting a little complicated for you but stick with me and I’ll walk you through how to make hidden folders visible again. Okay, are you read?
First, open the Windows Explorer to view files and folders. It’s the icon on your taskbar
that looks like a folder. Now go up to the toolbar at the top and click on “Tools” and select “Folder options” from the drop down menu.
This opens another small window with three tabs at the top. Click the tab “View” and a list will appear under Advanced settings. Go down the list to “Hidden files and folders”. There you will see two options. Click the little circle to select “Show hidden files, folders, and drives”. While you are there, go down the list and uncheck the box “Hide extensions for known file types”. Now click the “OK” button and close Windows Explorer. That’s it, were are done. Hope I haven’t made this too complicated.
Now when you reopen Windows Explorer you will see the “ProgramData” folder with the “Chairgun4” sub-folder and inside that folder you will see the “Images” folder and the filename.png. I do not know why Microsoft hides the file extensions by default. I always change that setting right away when working on computers. The extension give you an idea of what kind of file you are looking at. For example, *.exe is always a program file, *.jpg, jpeg, or .png are always picture files, a *.doc or docx is always a word document file. Do you see what I mean? Without that extension you won’t have a clue what kind of file you are viewing in Windows Explorer. Okay, end of lesson.
Hope this helps you out not only with finding the *.png image, but also with finding other files and knowing what kind of files they actually are. If you have any other questions, don’t hesitate to ask. And I could still send you the little “PrintKey” program that I find so useful when taking a quick screenshot of the anything on the desktop.
I am attaching a screenshot of Windows Explorer with the folders shown.
Happy Easter to you and your family.
Geo
Geo,
Thanks so much for that. I didn’t even think about hidden folders because ChairGun let me chose alternative folders during the save and gave no indication that it wouldn’t actually save it there. It tricked me! When I couldn’t find it in an un-hidden folder, I just assumed it had a bug.
I don’t have the F E V T H toolbar at the top of Explorer for some reason, but I knew how to make the changes through Control Panel.
Thank you again,Half
Halfstep,
Glad you were able to figure it out using control panel.
To get the menu to show at the top of Windows Explorer, click on the “Organize”
button. Then select “Layout” and check the box “Menu bar”. That will put the menu toolbar at the top for you. When you click on the “Organize” button you will see “Folder and search options” just below “Layout”. That would get you to the “View” setting to show the hidden folders as well.
Yup, even if you tell Chairgun4 to save the image on the desktop, or another folder, it saves it in the “Image” folder under Chairgun4. Yes, it does fool you 🙂
Geo,
Thanks again. I eventually found help online. I used ALT to get the menu up temporarily then Tools and so on until I got to the option to “Always show menus”
It worked fine. It was surprisingly difficult to arrive at a wording of the problem that would get me a meaningful return. They mostly dealt with Task Bar problems.
Hope the Giant Bunny has been good to you today.
Half
Half
Giant bunny ????
I plugged that sucker with a brain shot this morning. Real trophy size too .
tt
George this is well off topic but I am curious (despite stopping searching the comments for your name months ago), did you manage to fix your shooting and are now able to defend your (nesting box or bird feeder, I can’t remember)?
Sean.
Sean,
Yes, I fixed my shooting. But not like you would expect. After B.B. returned my Diana RWS 34P last July with a new Vortek Kit in it, it shot very smoothly. The problem was that I still was only able to shoot groups of 1.5″ to 2″ at 25 yards. I tried everything, different artillery holds, different pellets, and every suggestion from my fellow bloggers. Nothing I tried improved my shooting. I was so frustrated with my shooting at that point, I could see no option but to try a PCP airgun.
This spring I was encouraged by all the new entry level (less than $300) PCPs coming to market. I did a lot of research and watched every review video I could find. Also read a lot of reviews from owners of several of these PCPs. I was very interested in the Crosman Fortitude but could see the available date was being pushed out further and further. I could not wait until summer and I really wanted an airgun that had a proven design, to use this spring.
I finally settled on a Gamo Urban when I saw one on sale for $220. It was a deal I could not refuse. I also purchased a new compact UTG 3-12x44mm SWAT scope with the EZ-Tap illuminated reticle. I had to order a set of BKL offset rings to achieve the correct eye relief because of the compact design. I also bought a Taousa HPA hand pump for $85 to fill the Urban.
The weather here in southwest MI has not allowed many opportunities to shoot outside. I have been shooting in my basement at 17 yards. My very first group with the Urban using JSB 18.13 Jumbo Heavy pellets measured .155″. Basically at this distance I am able to shoot hole in hole. The Urban has renewed my confidence that I am still able shoot accurately at 71. I am so pleased with the Urban. It’s light, compact, and easy to shoot accurately. I was able to get outside one day a week or so ago and shoot the Urban at 25 yards and 30 yards. I shot groups of less than 1/2″.
So, the sparrows are not going to stand a chance this spring when they start harassing my bluebirds. The bluebirds arrived about mid-March. They are peculiar little birds. I have three bluebird nesting boxes about 25 feet between. They will continually go from one box to the next so we never know for sure which one they will choose. This will go on until mid-April when they finally decide on the one in which to nest. That’s about the time the sparrows start to fight with them.
I have shot three starlings from my feeders and a sparrow. I also shot a sparrow at 35 yards from the top of one of the nesting boxes. So far I think it’s five shots and five kills, no misses. That has been the goal all along, and I have finally achieved that goal 🙂
Geo
George it is good to know the Bluebirds finally have a defender, although it is a pity you had to spend more money. It is also good to know that you can still shoot. My major thought was that you were simply struggling to shoot a springer correctly but I did harbour a slight suspicion that you were just a bad shot. Sorry.
It is good for the airgun industry that there are finally, “airguns as a tool” available at a reasonable price point to eliminate pests in the backyard.
Have you kept the Diana? It would be interesting to find out whether your new found absolute confidence in your ability to shoot, which narrows down the problem to your artillery hold (I knew it wasn’t a floating reticle), would tighten your groups with it.
Sean
Sean,
Yes, I will keep the Diana RWS 34P. It has a lot of history now, and since B.B. tested it and installed the Vortek Kit, and the BKL droop compensating mount, the gun has sentimental value to me. It’s a very nice break barrel rifle and B.B. has make it even better. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Diana. I will take it out of the gun cabinet later and try shooting it again. The Urban has spoiled me though with it’s easy to shoot accuracy. I know for sure now that when I have the crosshairs on a pesky sparrow, he’s history. I like being able to call my shots again. Now if the weather would just warm up.
ChrisU
I will chime in with my 2 cents worth. As an example the scope center is 2 inches above the bore center so when the pellet leaves the barrel it has to arc up in those first yards to meet where ths cross hairs are. Untill ir reaches that point (first zero), the pellet will hit below where the cross hairs are. It will be in the 1 inch kill zone at 3/4 of the first zero distance. I hope that is the answer you are after.
Gerald
Participant,
Quite busy today, but I will try to work in a test at around 15′ and 24′ and 41′ (yes, feet, not yards) with the Maximus or the LGU. Those are my options for an indoor test. I am not sure what that will do, but hopefully it will show something.
Gerald,
That’s exactly what I was trying to convey to Chris. Until that pellet reaches the first zero (within PBR) it will be below the scope’s center (cross hairs). I use a 1/2″ kill-zone for Chairgun and when I optimally zero at 31 yards my PBR is 12.5 yards to 34.6 yards. These are the distances when the pellet first enters the kill-zone and then leaves the kill-zone. With a 1/2″ kill-zone and my Urban zeroed at 31 yards if I shoot at a target at 10 yards, my POI will be 0.46″ low and I would have to hold over the target’s center 0.46″ (1.3 mil-dots) to have my POI on the center of the target. If I were to use a 0.46″ hold under, my POI would be 0.92″ low and I would graze the belly of that pesky sparrow. They don’t present a very large kill-zone and that’s why I use a 1/2″ kill-zone instead of the 1″. I hate when I shoot and the feathers fly, but then so does the sparrow. Chris is now questioning his theory to use hold under at close ranges.
Thanks for jumping in Gerald 😀
Geo,
I did shoot at 24′ and 41′. Both shots landed low when shot at bull. Both took hold(over) to get on target. I am not sure what I am thinking, but I do know what worked outside at longer ranges,… at least I think. 24′ shot 3/4″ low and took 2 dot holdover to correct. 41′ shot 1 1/8″ low and took 1 1/2 mil dot holdover to correct.
You are correct. I will have to get back outside and shoot at the cheat sheet distances to confirm my notes. Sorry for any confusion.
Chris USA,
Glad you got a chance to test this out. It must have been bugging you that we disagreed on holdover at short range. It was good though because it challenges others think a little.
Your shooting results have me puzzled a little though. Is this the rifle you said was sighted in at 35 yards? At 8 yards (24′) you are seeing the POI 3/4″ low. That seems like a lot. Is your scope more than 1 3/4″ about the centerline of the bore? Also, the pellet’s trajectory should be upward, yet at 14 yards you are seeing 3/8″ more drop. This would mean the pellet was falling, when it should have been rising. Actually I think that at 14 yards, you should be in the PBR of a 1″ kill-zone if I am not mistaken.
I think we are going to get on the same page here soon 😀
Geo,
I might have to concede that you are correct. Chairgun would say so and you say so. That still does not explain why I use hold under at closer ranges. It would seem that some sort of hold under would be needed to correct for the pellet going (over) the center of the kill zone. Not true hold under, just less hold over.
While looking back at past articles for an answer, I ran across this:
/blog/2009/02/scopes-for-field-target-part-3/
Part 3, which this is, addresses hold over and under. Mostly hold over.
*** What is most interesting, if you look at all 3 parts, is why B.B. does (not) use hold over to shoot. He adjust the turrets. Why is that better? Read and find out. I am a hold over shooter, but that was food for thought. Other good stuff in there too that we do not often hear discussed, because it is a bit advanced.
I will work in a test today if I can. Now you have (me) questioning things! Darn you anyways!,….. 😉
Chris
Let us know what you get when you test.
But I zero at 50 yards. Only because most of my shooting is 35 yards and out. So yes I use hold under at distances closer than 50 yards. And of course hold over as distance increases past 50 yards.
Chris and the rest of you plinkers
Since I shoot mostly Big Bore air rifles/pistols with their signature loopy trajectory I have shot so many ranging targets from 10 to 100+ yards that I think I may have an idea for you to chew on.
Is your muzzle at the same elevation above (MSL) as your POI. The closer your target the more important that same elevation becomes. I use a water level or more recently a LASER Level to make certain that my sightline is plumb.
10M also isn’t much of a problem because it is such a short distance that we almost naturally place target and muzzle at the same AGL..
When I shoot High Power PB the issue doesn’t normally show because my sight in range is 100, 200 or more yards.
IF, that hurt your head then just look at a Sightline/boreaxis short range (under 50 yards) chart and imagine that the range is perfectly level and you JUST change the elevation of the muzz!e and still keep the target at the same height over the ground. I think you will see that at some point you will need to hold over because you are actually shooting at the 10 yard point. IF on the other hand you lower the muzzle in relation to the target the bore axis will shoot that round way high at, say 10 yards
Eazypeezy,
shootski
Shootski
So do you range your gun at different elevations and distances so you know what your aim point will be?
And when you use a acronym. Do like this just in case someone doesn’t have time to figure it out.
POI (point of impact), POA (point of aim), FPE (foot pound energy).
Gunfun1,
Happy Easter! (Monday?)
Sorry about the acronyms without the English translation. To many years of using my DICNAVAB
(Dictionary of Naval Abrieviations.) To keep myself from blowing acronyms or abrieviations.
I only do a full ranging on a level indoor shooting range. Elevated or depressed fire all have lookup tables, or “WIZ WHEELS” (circular slide rules) or more recently smartphone calculators/apps. I use only USMC MILDOT reticals on my Big Bore stockedpistols and rifles and do not spin turrets when I hunt.. So you could say that I have dope tables in milliradians for known hunting situations not on the same level to the MSL (Mean Sea Level) plane. The rest is all stalking to closer known range and advantageous position. I spend a good deal of time walking/skiing my hunting areas to look for “Sign” and locating those advantageous shooting positions. I also “call” my estimated range, use my MILDOT retical to check my called range. I usually then pace it off (if possible)or use a range finderIdo no still or treestand hunting. Pacing it off was something my Dad taught me because it quickly teaches you to eyeball range in unfamiliar places.
It really is most often the same Mental Dope you probably use without thinking about it when you have hunted a place frequently with the same weapon and optics/sights, or very close, to what you would get by simply shooting the range to target with no consideration for the angular distance. The same as taking out squirrel in tall trees from near the base of the tree. Experience and mindful observation really count in the field when scouting; not just when afield for the hunt.
shootski
Shootski
Right and after all that you basically shoot and know your shooting area.
So how do you use your dope notes in different areas than where you normally shoot?
Gunfun1
I was looking at the write up on a new rangefinder by Leupold:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/04/02/leupold-1600i-rangefinder/
It mostly answers all of your question about how my system works in new hunt areas; of course most often without using an optical or LASER rangefinder. First of all you need to learn the average size of things (trees, pine cones/candles)in an area by inspection; then the MILDOT retical is used almost like a tape measure. You need to do a little paper& pencil math and you can create the Dope. Just get it done before the Trophy target shows up. It is possible to really good at eyeballing your external balistics solutions. Then you interpolate a few known distance/holdover tapes that I glue to my eye piece flip up cap and take the shot when you know it is right.
Rangefinders are getting way better with every new generation. They are a really good training aid but for airgun range hunting they are to slow, fiddly and will lose you more shots if you use them for the external ballistics solution right before you take the shot. That’s why I believe in good stalking and field craft more than I do in all to much gear.
Come to think of it; high power hunting has become less an less “fair chase” with every generation of optics improvement in my opinion.
shootski
Shootski
Ok thought maybe you had a new secret way to do it.
How long you been reading the blog anyway. I thought you said for some time now. We have talked about all this in the past. Pretty heavily at that.
But I guess it’s good to bring up every once in a while for the new readers.
You should search before you post. Google or whatever you use for your search engine. I type in Pyramyd AIR blog and what subject I want and different reports BB has done will show up. Pretty sure if you do that you will find what you want. More than likely BB has done a report on it.
Chris,
Thanks for the link into the past. I went back and read all three parts. Some good stuff was discussed. I’m with you, I like the KISS method (keep it simple stupid) of shooting. I am not trying to do field target shooting and I think holdover, or holdunder, will work just fine for my needs. It was interesting how anal some guys get over the details but I guess that’s what it takes to win field target competitions.
Oh, one more thing ELEVATION in my post only means distance above the ground/floor/dirt and NOT angle of the barrel relative to that floor!
shootski
B.B, — and everyone here,
Happy Easter! Have a great weekend.
Jim M.
Thought I would include this link to further complicate the holdover discussion and because I can thanks to Chris. /blog/2005/07/how-to-optically-center-a-scope/
Carl
Carl,
There you go!,.. just “stirring the pot”,….. 😉
Yes, while I do not remember ever linking that, I do remember we had a brief discussion on the topic. Mirror method if I recall?
Today was the first shooting I have done in awhile. Indoor shooting has lost it’s “allure” after a few years. Ohio weather would dictate that I should do otherwise,… hence, I am a bit “rusty”.
Is the message on the warning label on the butt in English or Chinese? If it’s in Chinese, I suspect it translates as something like this: “Warning: device is booby-trapped. Intended for sale only to enemies of the People’s Republic. Long live Chairman Mao!” 🙂
Bob,
That is pretty darn funny! 😉 You do bring up a good point as to what language it is printed in though.