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102 label

Crosman 102 multi-pump pneumatic repeater: Part 2

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by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Crosman 102
Crosman’s 102 is a .22 caliber multi-pump repeater.

Part 1

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • The rifle
  • Test 1
  • Rebuilt
  • Examine the power band
  • Trigger pull
  • Surprise!
  • Test 2
  • Magazine capacity
  • Feeding
  • Label
  • Summary

Today we look at the power of the Crosman 102 bolt-action repeater that we are testing. This test went in a different direction than I expected because of the rifle’s design. I will explain as I go.

The rifle

You know that I just finished the test of the Crosman 100, and I’m getting confused between that rifle and this one. I re-read Part 1 for this rifle to familiarize myself with its operation, and good thing that I did. I had forgotten one thing that turned out to have a huge influence on today’s test. But I’m getting ahead of myself.

Test 1

The first test I did was one I like to do for all multi-pumps. I tested the power of the rifle with different numbers of pump strokes. Let’s look at that. I used the 14.3-grain Crosman Premier pellet for this test.

Pumps……Vel. avg…Total spread…..Energy ft. lb.
3……………391………14……………4.86
4……………431………32……………5.9
5……………506………08……………8.13
6……………527………30……………8.82 no air left
7……………535………10……………9.09 no air left
8……………536………24……………9.12 no air left

Okay, that was an eye-opener! I own a Crosman 101 which is the .22 caliber single shot and it is much more powerful. On 8 pumps it shoots the same pellet at 635 f.p.s. — a difference of 99 f.p.s. Why is this one so slow?

Rebuilt

The rifle was just rebuilt by Jeff Cloud who has rebuilt many multi-pumps, so I think it’s as good as it can be. There may be some parts that are worn from use, and that could affect the power level. Jeff rebuilds the rifles to stock specifications. My 101 was rebuilt years ago by another guy who made it hotter than stock. In fact, in the test I did years ago I pumped it 10 times and there was still no air remaining in the reservoir. But 10 pumps puts a lot of strain on the pump linkage, and I don’t want to subject this rifle to that kind of abuse.

Examine the power band

Now let’s turn our attention to the power band of the rifle that’s shown above. Notice that it stalls out at 6 pumps. I tried shooting it dry after 6, 7 & 8 pumps and there was no air left in the gun. But clearly 6 pumps are all you need, and 5 are even better, when you consider the return on your effort.

Trigger pull

The single-stage trigger pull is very repeatable, which is a welcome change from the Crosman 100 I recently tested. It breaks at a consistent 3 lbs. 15 oz.

As I mentioned in Part 1, this rifle also cocks easier than the 100. That is entirely due to the cocking knob, which has a wide knurled band that makes it easy to grasp. I think I will look for one of those for my 100, as well. It won’t be correct for the rifle, but it will cock easier and, as accurate as that 100 seems to be, I am thinking I will hang onto it.

Surprise!

This is the point where I wanted to test the rifle with lightweight and heavyweight pellets. That demonstrates the limits of power, because a pneumatic is almost always less powerful with a light pellet and more powerful with a heavy one. And that’s when it hit me!

Remember that little cutout in the gravity-feed magazine tube I showed you in Part 1? Let’s look at it again.

Crosman 102 mag port open
The hole the pellet must pass through limits the pellets that can be loaded into the magazine.

Here’s the deal. I don’t own that many lightweight pellets in .22 caliber, and the ones I do have — the Gamo Raptor and the Gamo Luxor — are both 9.8-grains, which is pretty light for a .22 pellet. Unfortunately both are also far too long to fit through that wadcutter-shaped loading hole, so no dice.

Test 2

Okay, I went to the other end of the spectrum and tried a H&N Baracuda Match pellet. Same thing! They are also too long to fit through that hole. So this test will end with a shot of an RWS Hobby lead pellet that is the lightest pellet I have that will fit through the hole. I gave it the full 8 pumps to give it the best chance to excel. It went out at 602 f.p.s., which for this 11.9-grain pellet generates 9.58 foot-pounds. That makes what I just said about lightweight pellets wrong! Oh, well. You try your best and let the chips fall where they may. At least I was smart enough to use the modifier “almost.”

Magazine capacity

This time I managed to affirm that the tubular magazine does hold exactly 20 Crosman Premier pellets. That was left in doubt in Part 1.

Feeding

I have to comment on how well this rifle feeds! I have owned 2 Crosman 400s, which is a bolt-action CO2 repeater. Neither one fed worth a darn. Their magazines came off the rifle, which may have lead to a misalignment problem, so no more 400s for BB!

I also used to own a Crosman 118, which is another CO2 bolt action repeater — this time bulk-fill. It’s an older design than the 400 and the magazine is integral. I don’t remember it feeding as well as this 102. As I recall, sometimes the bolt would hang up because the linkage would go over-center and refuse to advance.

But the 102 is bulletproof. If the pellet will fit through the hole it will feed! I like that!

Label

I’m putting this in because one reader asked for it. The label on the forearm is mostly gone. I’ve had full labels in the past and if this one was any good I would have shown it in Part 1.

102 label
The label on the forearm is mostly gone.

Summary

The 102 is certainly a different air rifle! It’s so quirky, with pellet pickiness combined with smooth feeding. Pumping is smooth and easy. I just like it! I hope it’s accurate.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.
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210 thoughts on “Crosman 102 multi-pump pneumatic repeater: Part 2”

  2. B.B.,

    Thank you the label pic. I thought it unusual in such a high contact area. Interesting was the different examples given on the different guns, tunes and valves and what was optimal for each. There is a sweet spot for each one. While it would do nothing to help the value, I would be real tempted to open the magazine/tube loading port. That may fix a problem on one end, but create another problem with feeding at the other end,.. I don’t know. It seems in a way that they were trying to make things a bit proprietary and limit pellet choice to their own brand. If I recall, that was part of the story on how the .20 caliber came to be.

    Chris

    • Chris,

      Yes, if I open the port I might be able to get a longer pellet in, but what would happen at the shuttle that feeds it?

      Quackenbush was the first to have an oddball caliber that was 21.5, as I recall. It didn’t matter much in those days because airgun calibers weren’t standard yet.

      Crosman had a .21 caliber ball for their gallery guns, but it didn’t last long. And, when the government bought 1,000 model 102 rifles during WW II, of course they bought the odd caliber instead of the standard .22. Then they also bought 1-2 million rounds of ammunition — a typical government approach! Somewhere there may still be a few thousand rounds of .21 caliber balls in some dusty warehouse.

      Sheridan picked .20 caliber so the clunky .22 caliber pellets of the day couldn’t be used in their guns. It actually cost them sales, as by the late ’40s .22 caliber was firmly established and retailers worried about an odd caliber they had to stock if they sold guns that used it.

      B.B.

  3. B.B.,

    Considering that the feed mechanism is a mirror image of the Girandoni air rifle, makes me wonder why this one works compared to the ones that followed it. It would probably be a big downgrade to the overall worth of the rifle to modify the pellet port to accommodate other pellet silhouettes and test if they can feed properly.

    Siraniko

    • Siraniko,

      The major weakness of this type of feed mechanism is the limitation of the length AND shape of the projectile. If the projectile is longer than the shuttle can accommodate, it will not clear the tube. If it is too short, the next projectile will jam the shuttle. Also, if the pellet has a deep indentation in the skirt, the nose of the lower pellet needs a nose that will not protrude into the skirt thereby “locking” the pellets together, again preventing the shuttle from working. The Girardoni shot round ball, eliminating these issues. The loading port on this air rifle restricts what can be loaded, reducing the possibility of these issues arising.

  4. BB,

    Pellet limitations have been an issue with many magazine types, not just this 102. Most magazines limit you to a certain length. The loading cutout on this tube limits the pellet to what will work properly in the feed mechanism.

  5. The RWS Hobby was the pellet I thought of immediately the moment I saw the cutout in the magazine tube and you mentioned the fit issue. Great minds, ha! That pellet has been my best accurate lightweight in a variety of guns, in both .177 and .22.

    • Hiveseeker,

      As you may have seen, I got a 2240 and am looking at doing something similar to what you have done. After some research, it would appear that the Custom Shop is the way to go. From there, a Maximus barrel, maybe a port to drill out and maybe a power adjuster for the rear, from the 2300S model. I am not sure which stock barrel to go with yet, but leaning heavily towards the 24″.

      1) The Crosman site says 3-6 weeks on delivery. Based on your past orders,.. what has been your average wait time?

      2) How is the next installment (mods/tunes) to your blog series coming along? No pressure, just curious. I know from past reports that you are very thorough, have lots of visual supports and spare no detail,.. which no doubt takes a lot time.

      • Hi Chris,

        My modding blog is coming along (very) slowly, but surely. It’s being a lot of work with all the testing! However, to give you a Cliff’s Notes preview, buying a Custom Shop 2400KT — especially if you go with the 24 inch barrel — will give you something very close to a fully modded gun. Of course, many enjoy starting from scratch with a 2240 and doing it all with their own two hands. But if you’re looking mainly to the end product and cost, two words: Custom Shop! To answer your other question, my nearly half dozen CS guns have all shipped almost exactly 3 weeks after I order.

        In the meantime, comment specifically to me (so I see the notification in my email) if you have further questions, especially if you’re getting ready to spend $$.

        • Hiveseeker,

          Thank you. I always meant a direct reply, but I guess that I messed that up. Yes, after much research, I see that the Custom Shop is the way to go on cost. I will re-check that,.. but from last research,.. that was the lasting impression. Thanks on the 3 weeks conformation.

          GF1 just asked why? Custom way at the bottom. I thought that I gave him a rather informed answer.

          Take your time on the report. You do quality work and quality work takes time.

          Thanks again,…. Chris

          • Chris
            I’m thinking after all these discussions on the 2240 and such that Hiveseeker has been going crazy rewriting his blog.

            Just way to much stuff out there for these types of guns.

            It would be hard to stay on the upper end of things.

            • GF1,

              Having just now delved into the “pit”,… I can relate. I do however have FULL confidence in Hiveseeker,.. however long that takes.

              To this point, he has given us all most excellent info. on the Custom Shop line-up. Modding is a whole other realm. Whatever he comes up with will be most welcomed. I am pretty sure that when it is all said and done,.. it will be some of the best info. on the topic. Heck,… it already is as it stands now.

              Out’a here for now.

  6. BB,

    I don’t think you stated specifically, but I assume these were 10 shot groups. Why do you suppose that one additional pump – from 4 to 5- caused a change from the worst spread to the best spread, then one more pump essentially reversed the whole outcome? Would you be willing to repeat that stage of the test to see if it is repeatable at all, unless, perhaps, a single shot skewed the spread at 4 and 6 pumps?

  8. BB,

    Revisiting the design flaw subject for a bit, the primary reason for my interest in a muzzleloader is that I would be able to use it during muzzleloading season. A valve deciding to leak at a most inopportune time would indeed likely lead to a most unpleasant experience.

    As for the Modoc, you were saying that the fill pressure was a maximum of 4500 PSI. If you go to their website now you will see that the recommended fill pressure is 3000 – 3500 PSI. Rick Eustler did a review of it a good while back and he stated that the maximum fill pressure was 4500 PSI also, but he also said they were getting the best results around 3000 PSI. It sounds as though your experience has caused AirOrdnance to scale things back a bit.

    Maybe InnovAirTech would decide to tap into your network and send you one of their rifles to review?

  9. B.B.,

    I want to piggyback on RidgeRunner’s comment yesterday that air guns are not toys. Certainly, you have stressed this and it is on every air gun package I have read as well as printed on air guns (although, not all).

    I was reminded of something I read some time ago. A detective stated that his first case (as a detective) was a homicide committed with an air gun.

    I did a quick “murder by air gun” search and found enough to bother me.

    I hope these links are reachable. The first is a PDF about incidents in the UK.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC500806/pdf/jclinpath00268-0037.pdf

    The second is about a murder committed in 2017 using a home made air gun. Detectives used information they discovered to reconstruct an air gun. The perpetrator apparently though he could just dismantle the gun a be home free.
    http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/lehigh-county/index.ssf/2017/04/killer_used_homemade_airgun_pr.html

    This one refers to the same case as above but has more about the air gun.
    http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-stephanie-roof-air-gun-making-a-murder-weapon-20170528-story.html

    We are still most fortunate, compared to the UK and Scotland.
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/air-guns/rifles-being-turned-deadly-8072623

    Of course, we do have HIGH powered air guns available. We can’t stop the bad seeds but we certainly need to police ourselves and enjoy our sport (and not shoot ourselves in the foot or other body parts).

    ~ken

    • This is a very informative, entertaining, well-written blog. Sorry this is a coming-late-to-the-party comment, but anyone who watched “No Country For Old Men” can attest to Anton Chigurh’s skills in killing with air pressure – which was not generated by an air gun. I know, it is only a movie.

      We ARE most fortunate to be living in this country and enjoying the benefits of our Constitution and system of government, which too many take for granted. Freedom – use it responsibly or lose it.

  10. Since things are a bit slow today,.. I shall offer up a (totally off topic), topic, that may be of interest to Northern states veggie growers. I like hot peppers. I grow them. Fall arrives and I still have 40+ (green) Cayenne peppers on the plants.

    Sad,.. 🙁 < me sad,.. small tear,…. I bring 4 plants in and put them next to a window. 40 (red) peppers harvested within 3 weeks. 🙂 me!

    Long-ish story short,.. as the peppers ripened and the plant limbs were no longer needed, I cut them back. To my surprise, there is (new) leaves popping out all over the place. Will the plants make new peppers? I do not know.

    All in all,.. I found it interesting that a veggie/annual plant's life could be extended,… for how long though?

    Back to napping now. Did I mention that it is a bit "slow" today? 😉

    • Chris,

      I love peppers. They are not annual plants and will live a few years if kept from freezing. If protected they will have peppers next year. I keep wanting to build a green house mostly for peppers and tomatoes, too many projects I guess.

      I planted about 30 pepper plants this year. I could not give them all away. Had about 5 varieties.

      Don

      • Don,

        I just now did a bit of research on the topic. Yes, they can be perennials, and actually are. I just tried it and was just sharing my results,.. thus far.

        Related,.. a fellow at work grew some Ghost peppers,.. but showed me plant pics that were 10X the size of the plants he grew,.. that were grown in optimal climates/conditions. They looked like big bushes!

      • B.B.,

        Ahh yes. I think that I get your “drift”. Yes,… minimal has been my way to go,.. though some reading this blog on a regular basis may disagree. 😉 Balance and solid direction,.. with education,.. in all things,.. is the goal.

        Easier to say,.. not as easy to do on regular basis. But hey,… like you say,… take your best shot and let the chip’s fall where they may. At least you gave it a shot! 😉

        Chris

  11. Hi guys,

    I have not had much of anything to post about for a while. No shooting outside in west Michigan. Our high temps for the past week have been 10º to 15º with lows down to -15º.

    I have been reading the blogs and the comments though. Very much interested in the entry level PCPs at $300 or less. Halfstep has posted some good information about his Urban. Does anyone else have any comments? I thought that the Stormrider or the Gauntlet looked good until I read about the random quality issues.

    Also, could anyone recommend a good quality scope that won’t add a ton of weight to the rifle. I wrote the Gauntlet off of my list because of the length and weight. I want something more compact and lighter weight. I won’t say which rifle I am most interested in because I would like some unbiased input from the experts here 🙂
    I believe more of what I read here than all the reviews online. You guys are the best.

    • Geo,

      Missed ya’ Bud! (I have seen your occasional post) I was hoping that you were sticking around. 😉 Me? Maximus. Single shot yea, but I prefer a magazine. Halfstep’s Urban has my interest, but have done 0% research on it. He has done some most (excellent) graph work on it though. So there ya’ go,… my 2 cents. 😉

    • Geo,

      On a scope recommendation,.. I have this on my TX200. I like it a lot. When I got the Maximus, I ordered what I thought was the same, but it was not. This one has a etched glass reticle and the Maximus one does not. I find the difference huge and recommend going etched glass, if doing the UTG line. The lines are finer and there is 1/2 mil dot lines between the dots on the etched glass. Oddly, I think I have yet to see an accurate picture of that reticle on-line. The etched glass on the 4-16×56 UTG on the M-rod has the same lines.

      /product/leapers-utg-3-12×44-ao-rifle-scope-ez-tap-ill-mil-dot-reticle-1-4-moa?a=4319

      • Chris,

        Thank you for your input regarding PCPs and also the scopes. That 4-16×56 would be a monster. I have a Hawke 3-9×50 IR AO with an etched glass reticle on my RWS34P. It’s a very nice scope but a bit large and heavy. I think I would prefer the side paralax adjustment (SWAT) so I was looking at the UTGs. The 3-12×44 might be a good choice.

        Well, the Gamo Urban is the PCP I have been researching. All the reviews indicate good quality and accuracy in a compact lighter weight airgun. I did read all of Halfsteps posts and looked at all his graphs and charts. All good information to base a decision on.

        Thanks again, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post. I have fallen behind in my reading of the posts and comments since Thanks Giving and have not caught back up yet.

        Geo

        • Geo,

          No problem. As you know, the tube length fore and aft of the turret is something to watch. More there will you give you more freedom to move the scope. Many of the UTG’s seem to have the same scope, but in short (Bugbuster), medium (compact) and long (normal),.. at least I think that to be the case.

          Magazine clearance is concern without going higher than needed on ring height. If you can get the turret away from the magazine, then that will afford lower rings in some cases. Of course, the more rail the better. If I recall correct, the Stormrider was pretty poor in that regards. The Urban,.. I do not recall. 11 mm rings should be fine for a PCP. No need to do the P/W, unless it already has that rail.

          If you go to the UTG site, the dimensions (very detailed) can be found. Front bell, front tube, turret, rear tube, ocular lengths and diameters. If you know what Halfstep used, you can use that as a comparison, if he posted a pic. I do not remember at the moment.

          Of course you probably have read all that and already know it, but I thought that I would toss it out again, all in 1 post. I want you to be a “happy camper” this go ’round. 😉

          • Chris,

            I understand what you are saying. My ideal size would be to use low mounts without the bell touching the barrel. And yes, on the PCPs with a magazine, clearance would be a concern also. I will say that the Urban, which does not come with iron sights, has an ideal configuration for mounting a scope as the rail is one continuous piece. The magazine fits under the rail so no interference to worry about there…I like that design. Stormrider’s rail is short and the rear sight has to be removed for all but maybe the short bugbuster scopes.

            What I have learned by following this blog is that in airguns, you usually get what you pay for. The Stormrider is probably worth $200, maybe, but not to me. It’s too iffy as to getting a good one or a bad one. Some have stated that the pre-production Stormriders have a different size letter (don’t remember which letter) than the ones being shipped now. So those pre-production models may have been more accurate.l

            • Geo,

              I did look it up after I posted. Yep, much of what I mentioned does not apply. The Urban looks nice and Hiveseeker’s post’s back that up. I like the vertical pistol grip,.. which is something that I will be looking for from here on out.

              I would never allow the front bell to touch the barrel. 1mm ok,.. but never touch. Some ring makers have very good info. on height,… others just plain *! P.A. could do a MUCH better job on that front.

  13. B.B.,

    Hope this one is as accurate as the 100 you tested. The power seems to be about the same as my 101. Wonder what the pump seal on yours looks like? I don’t expect you to take it apart but it seems there were a few iterations on the pump head design over the years.

    While we are talking Crosman 100-104 series I just want to update on my progress. I believe my gun may be constructed from spare parts. At least they are all there in one form or another. My pump seal is not a cup. It is just two leather washers with a fiber washer spacer squeezed together with a threaded compressor nut. I have ordered two Maximus barrels and a seal kit. The kit has a synthetic cup pump seal, I hope I can make that work. I also ordered the shop manual for all the early Crosman air guns, about 300 pages if I remember correctly. Will see if that is helpful or not.

    Hopefully I can get one of the new barrels necked down to fit the breech and have all working in a couple of weeks. I am leaning towards the .22 caliber barrel. I wanted to try both the .177 and .22 barrels but the machining requirement puts a damper on both at this time.

    Also my Benjamin Wildfire as developed a leak so I have plenty to keep me buisy. When I fill it to 2000 psi it makes a pop and then leaks down to about 1000 psi and then holds air. I tried filling to 1800 to avoid the pop but it still leaks down to 1000 psi and then holds for days. I am guessing it is the valve shifting from the pressure and an oring leaking. Any one have an Idea. I am not one to send it back for repairs. Oh and I did not fill past 2100 psi ever. I thought they had fixed the leak issues guess not.

    Don

      • Benji-Don
        Pretty sure this is the problem. The picture will show where mine leaked when I got it.

        Put some Loctite 592 slow cure thread sealer on the brass tube that I have circled in red. Don’t get none in the tube. Only on the outside and back about a 1/16 of a inch from the opening in each end where I circled red in the picture.

        Assemble the gun then fill to about 1200 psi. Do about 6 or so dry fires. Then let the gun set for about 3 or so days.

        Here’s the trick though. After the 3 days even if the gun leaked. Fill it to 1500 psi. But slowly. If your filling from a bottle crack the knob open very slowly. The way the tube is designed and bent at 90° it will try to push the tube out of the air resivoir block. Then slowly fill to 2000 psi. And I would not go over 2000 psi. Matter of fact I would call it quits at 1500 psi really. They did not redesign the gun when it comes to that tube. It’s naturally going to push the tube out of the air resivoir block with that much pressure. Remember the 1077 was designed for probably 1200 psi at the most of Co2 pressure.

        So if you do what I explained you should have good luck.

        1500 psi.
        Fill slowly.
        Live with the shot count that gives you what poi your looking for. Maybe only 3 mags from a fill.

        My WildFire I modified springs and took out componants even. I’m getting 5 mags from 1300 psi down to 700 psi. The last magnet does loose about a inch of poi though. But I have no leak down issues at that psi after using the Loctite 592.

        Oh and remember to degass your WildFire before you take it apart. You will have to dry fire it empty is about the only way I know.

        • GF1,

          Thanks for all the information. I may get into it today. I thought of that tube when I heard the pop. I bet you are correct.

          My WildFire has a degassing screw in front of the trigger. I may try that but I don’t want to get that leaking either. Thanks for the reminder, so far I have always let all the air out first, one time is too many to forget.

          Don

          • Benji-Don
            Your about the degassing screw. I forgot all about it. But now I remember why.

            Mine did have a slow leak from it also. But they didn’t have the screw tight at all. So I tightened the screw down and left well enough alone.

            That’s why I just dry fired till I could hear no more air.

            If you get into you might want to remove this flap, spring and pin. It dramatically sped my gun up on fast action trigger pulling.

          • Benji-Don
            If you do the things I mentioned it should lower you working pressure down to around the 1300 psi to 700 psi like I use.

            You will still get good velocity and 4 clips of full power with no poi change is what you should get. And like I said I can squeeze another clip out of it with a slight POI drop on probably the last 5 shots of that clip.

            Let me know if you try it.

            • GF1,

              Thanks for the tips. I will take my tablet out to the workshop so I have your pictures and notes while working on it. Not sure where I will go until I get into it.

              • Benji-Don
                No problem.

                Still like I said let me know what you find. Also let me know if you see what parts I’m talking about removing and that shortening of the trigger return spring.

                Those things all need done together to get the performance out of the gun that I’m getting from mine.

                Waiting to hear.

                • GF1,

                  Yep, it all makes sense. Darn it you got me checking my spelling more now.
                  I opened it up and the transfer tube has a good nick/cut in it right where the o-ring fits.

                  I haven’t decided if I want to try to polish it out and use loctite in it. I think I will have to order a new tube. If I loctite it and it still leaks then I will have more trouble later with a new tube. So I think I will wait.

                  That tube does not have much holding it in place and they do not go far through the o-ring so any movement and you have a leak. If I can figure out how to hold each end tight up into each fitting it should not leak. I am sure the pop I am hearing is coming from the tube getting pushed out of the o-ring.

                  The rest of your mods will be looked into once I stop it from leaking. Using B.B.’s technique on the trigger “pulling just to the break and then you are ready to use the trigger as a two stage. Works good for plinking. For rapid fire I see where your mods would be a big improvement. I am not to that point yet. The leak has kept me from even finding a good pellet. I have a few wadcutters to try when I get the gun fixed.

                  Here is a picture of the tube.

                  Don

                  • Benji-Don
                    I believe that knick is the problem.

                    The question is how did it get there. I do believe the tube is moving and causing wear.

                    But another problem I see is the valve can actually move in it’s pocket. So believe each time the trigger is pulled it bumps the valve and tube around.

                    That’s why I chose the Loctite thread sealer. Incase things did shift around the seal would actually flex to some extent.

                    But yep figuring out how to hold everything more secure would seem to be the best idea.

                  • Benji-Don
                    And you know thinking more.

                    Maybe with me lightening the springs and changing the working force is why my WildFire didn’t show the wear yours does.

                    And maybe using the trigger as a two stage trigger is not good.

                  • Don,

                    That could be (wear from movement) from shooting since you have had it.? It could be that the nick was never there at the time the rifle was put together. I don’t know,.. just tossing it out there as another idea.

      • Woah, that from the man with five or more guns in the air all the times.

        If I moved any slower someone would need to drive some pegs in the ground to see if I am moving.

    • Benji-Don,

      I went through 3 Wildfires, when they first came out, that popped then leaked all the way down. I was filling with a hand pump at the time and the valve would not seal well enough to allow refilling. The short story is 2 of them went back and the third I attempted to fix or at least find the problem, thus voiding the warranty. For that gun I tried to order a new valve only to find that it was different from a 1077 valve and that there was a parts list that was so new that it wasn’t up on Crosman’s website yet. The Parts guy told me that they did not have the parts set up for sale yet ( it was a different dept that set that up ) but if I could give him a few days he would see if he could arrange a sale for me. Two days later he called and said that after talking to the folks that were responsible for setting up the parts and finding that they were not in a hurry because the gun was so new that they assumed all the repairs would be done by them under warranty, he got a supervisor involved and the parts were now for sale. I know that didn’t seem like a short version, but trust me, it was. Kudos to Crosman’s Parts and Customer Service people. This guy really felt bad for me and you could just tell that he really wanted to help me, which he did.

      I ended up ordering two of the valve’s in order to have a spare. The first one that I installed would not hold air after 7 or 8 pumps. It would just start leaking faster than I could put air in. The second worked fine. So I just wanted to warn you that If you try to repair it yourself you could end up installing bad replacement parts. The valve can be disassembled but it’s a real bugger to get back together. Its parts are all under considerable spring pressure and a tiny snap ring holds it all together. Compressing everything and still having room to operate the required angled snap ring pliers is a real challenge. I was able to determine on my gun that the leaking air was coming out through the center of the valve stem rather than around its stem. The former indicates a leaking valve seat and the later would be a bad O-ring around the stem. That O-ring is not made of Buna, by the way, it was translucent like a hard silicone. I don’t know if you can buy the individual parts of the valve assembly.

      Well, that’s what I know about the issue. Not much good news in there I know, but I hope it helps you out, somewhat, anyway.

      • Halfstep
        I don’t buy your theory.

        The brass tube feeds pressure to the valve from the air resivoir.

        So air is introduced in to the valve and pushing against the top hat to seat on the valve body.

        The striker/hammer pushing against the valve stem is the only way air will dump out of the valve towards the barrel.

        What is happening is like I told Benji-Don. The brass tube is trying to lift out of the air resivoir location. It does not lift all the way out. But it does lift enough to cock that brass tube upwards. So it looses it’s seal at the air resivoir location and also where the tube goes into the side of the valve.

        What happens is as your filling it reaches a certain pressure and finally looses the seal. Then that’s the poof you hear. Then the leak down. Then in Benji-Don’s case it finally resealed at 1000 psi. In your case it does not reseal.

        And now your story.

        • GF1,

          I will say that the bent tube is a weak spot in the design. Especially that there is not a good bracket or fitting to hold it in place against the pressure. I thought about some tie wire around the pressure tube and the transfer tube to hold it in place. Or a bracket with a set screw that could be tightened once the gun is together. That would solve the problem. Hey maybe some small fuel line around the tube so that it can’t move. That would take up some space so the tube can’t move away from the pressure tube and the valve. The diameter of the transfer tube is 0.120 inches. So at 2000 psi it has about 23 pounds of pressure against it. I am thinking a small fuel line or even some tape wrapped around the transfer tube in the right locations may do the trick. I still have the bad spot on my tube but may give something a try.

          Don

          • Benji-Don,

            The two halves of the receiver form a channel that retains the tube when the two halves are joined ,if my memory serves me. Since yours is apart you should be able to see it and those two parts don’t really want to go back together until you get the tube situated just right, relative to those areas molded in to form the channel. It’s been awhile since I have been in mine but I was taking it apart 4 times a day for a while there, and that’s my memory of how it was made. I suppose those areas could be miss-molded and are allowing the tube to back out some.

            • Halfstep

              Thanks for the help. I put some tape on the transfer tube and mashed it into the channel in the receiver you are talking about. Those parts especially the trigger seem to want to pop out when trying to get the two halves together so after a few times it will probably get easier.

              I want to fill to 2000 psi so that is what I am going to do. Ok, get to the end Don. So I filled it to 2000 psi and it went to 1900 that is normal for some reason. Now that the temperature has settled down it is holding at 1850 psi. That is only about 30 minuets test so far. But good enough for shooting. I will still be ordering a tube and at least one valve on Monday when the parts department is open. I think there may still be a slight leak so will let the gun sit until tomorrow and see.

              Will give a new update on pressure later.

              Don

              • Don,

                I will be watching for that. I have two Wildfires and three 1077s so I’m all about gathering firsthand repair reports on these guns.

                I don’t know if you read it or not, but in the past I think it was GunFun1 who told someone that the little flat plate at the top of the receiver, it’s pin and it’s spring can be left out upon reassembly. They are some of the fiddly parts that make reassembly a three handed job and I will be leaving them out, if ( Knock on wood! ) I ever have to get into any of mine again.

        • GF1,

          I ultimately had to troubleshoot the gun with it partially disassembled. I don’t want to describe it here because it wasn’t really safe and I wouldn’t want to encourage anyone to try it. It was my risk to take and I chose to but I also didn’t fully understand or appreciate the energy that is stored in a PCP at that early stage of my PCP dabblings .

          I’d like you to understand that I was an industrial maintenance man for 42 years, and that’s pretty much all of my adult life. It turns out that I have an analytical and logical mind and learned a thing or two about troubleshooting in those 42 years. I had to solve problems that were much more complex than discovering where the air is leaking from on my Wildfire and when I put on a new part, I usually knew that it was going to fix the problem, For Sure. I did not troubleshoot by Part Replacement as many do. I was the guy that other men came to for help with their calls and I only say I’m certain of something if I know for certain, so I’m just going to tell you that I know for a certainty that my gun was leaking past the seat and out through the center of the valve stem. I was able to put a wooden skewer into that hole and the air stopped.

      • Halfstep,

        Thanks for the information. My leak could easily be in the valve especially if you heard a pop also. Hopefully you broke the ice and I will be able to order a new tube and a couple of valves also. Mine is already apart so no return for me. Will get a few o-rings for the tube fittings, although I can probably find them at Grangers or a paint ball/pellet gun/hydraulic shop.

        Good thing for this blog it saves me a lot of wasted effort. Guess I will be shooting my guns that are not apart for a while, O-darn. I have some reactive targets including one from Coduece to test out some more. The sun is out today and it is 63 degrees with a slight breeze here on the Left Coast.

        Don

        • Benji-Don
          The tube for the 1077 is exactly the same as the Wildfire tube.

          Alot of the 1077 parts will interchange.

          I’m all thinking about getting a 1077 wood stock for mine and drilling a hole for the air gauge on the bottom. Then I’ll have a wood stove WildFire.

          Might make it a little heavier which I don’t want for the type of shooting I do. But would make it look and feel nicer I believe. Also the added weight might help bench resting like it sound that you want to do with your WildFire.

          • GF1,

            As much as I love to tear into things and see how they “tick”,… I am sorry to say that the Wildfire would have been in the scrap heap after a few tear downs. The crap you guys are going through is just plain ridiculous. In fact, a pretty good endorsement on what (not) to buy. I do admire and enjoy about how you guys are figuring things out though.

            • Chris,

              Thanks for the encouragement?? Suppose to be a winking face here, I will figure those mojies out some day maybe??

              When something does not work I have no choice but to try to fix it. I have no control over it. Just the way I am. And I use whatever means possible.

              I have a long way to go with the Wildfire, it is also going to get better groups before I am finished with it. I hope. It needs to be a little better than my 1077 in the accuracy department and has a ways to go. With the better barrel that should not be too hard to accomplish.

              Don

              • Don,

                I refer back to my comment. I do wish you the very best and do admire,.. and enjoy all you are doing. I would be doing the same. It sounds like it would be a lot of fun if it got up and running. I guess, in the end, even I have my limits. If retired and had lot’s of time,.. I would enjoy the challenge.

                What bugs me the most is that the model was obviously not tested well before release. Now that sir,.. bugs me a lot. That alone, ticks me off pretty quick.

              • Don,

                Try this,…. type words,…. skip 3 spaces,…. hit : and then ),…. skip 3 more,… and continue post. This will get you a 🙂

                When you post, all the gaps will come together and they will appear normal.

            • Chris
              Yep they should of for sure spent some more time trying out the WildFire on the HPA before releasing it.

              They might of changed some components from what the 1077 had. But they didn’t spend no time tuning the gun right.

              • GF1,

                Yea,.. what can you say? Stupid ol’ me thinks that put someone in a room with 6 or so rifles and just blast away for 8 hrs. for 5 days. Do not even aim,.. just shoot. If one breaks, then move to the next one. That is more shooting than anyone would ever do with one and would be a good stress test of the design and parts.

                I mean really,.. how hard is that? You don’t need a college degree and a 3 piece suit to figure that one out. That goes for any model and any air gun manufacturer.

                If the results are good, then use the results as part of the advertising campaign. If not, then fix the issue and then,… repeat.

                • Chris
                  You know I always got alot to say. 😉

                  You saying I should be getting paid to torture test the guns I have got through out time. 🙂

                  I for sure had my share and ran them through the wringer. You know what I mean.

          • GF1,

            I thought that was the case but being it is a different valve I was not sure. I almost took my 1077 apart to get the tube out.

            See my response to Halfstep above I used tape and it seems to be holding so far. I also have not pulled the trigger yet so that will be the next test.

            Don

            • Benji-Don
              Pull up the Crosman 1077 parts diagram.

              Look at the parts compared to your WildFire when it apart the next time.

              Physically the parts look the same. So from what I seen with work I done on 1077’s the parts should interchange other than the air resivoir parts verses the Co2 tube and parts.

              Now the valve. That’s another story. Outside they are physically the same. Put internally they may of changed the spring and top hat for the WildFire.

              But I bet either valve would work on the WildFire. You may need a different fill pressure if you use a 1077 valve in a WildFire though.

      • B.B.,
        Looking forward to that one. Probably going to be expensive, for a bb, but I can picture them really shattering in a high velocity gun like say a Umarex EBOS or say a 600 fps MORPH!
        Doc

      • BB,

        I’ll say it again, ” Gun writers get all the fun !”

        We’re gonna need info on weight/diameter variance. Attracted to magnet? Some of that great microscope stuff you do. A cadaver eye nearby for a “Will It Shoot It Out” test. Aluminum can penetration test. How hard does the target have to be for the BB to shatter. Will typical reactive targets like Dum Dum suckers still explode. Taste. Smell……. I’m so excited !!!

        • Halfstep,

          Any more information regarding your Gamo Urban? I was going to ask you what scope you are using on it. I am thinking the 3-12×44 UTG compact would be a good choice. Do you know if that scope would require high mounts or would low mounts work? Looking forward to more data on your Urban.

          Geo

          • Geo,

            I have not done anything worth reporting yet with the Urban except some more reading and videowatching online and I’m a little embarrassed to say that I thought I was breaking new ground when I said that the Urban was a better choice over the stormrider. Turns out, that little bit of wisdom is already commonly included in many of the discussions out there on the web.

            The scope that I am using is the Mantis 3-9 X 32 AO that was included in the deal that I got from Airgun Depot for my stormrider. If you are going to be shooting birds, primarily, at 30 -35 yards and you won’t be switching it to a springer at some point ( I haven’t used it that way and cannot speak to its suitability) I think that it will work fine for you. The parallax adjustment on mine is spot on at 9X, which is the only way I ever use it. On the Urban I didn’t use much UP adjustment and I feel really comfortable telling you that it holds zero. I also think that if doorway birding is all you’ll do an even less expensive scope, namely the Winchester 3-7 X 32 AO, at around $50, will serve you well. I have many of them and the even less expensive 4 X 32 AO for around $30 on my CO2 and PCPs. I personally think that these inexpensive scopes are fine for the type of shooting that I do. Geo, and anyone who finds themselves wanting to call me out on that statement, please pay attention to ” I think” and ” kind of shooting I do”. When I shoot it is not past 50 yards, usually closer to 30 yards, it’s daytime, and they are on PCPs or CO2 guns. Additionally, I’m willing to spend the time to tweek the ocular adjustment to get all the parallax I can out at the expense of a tiny amount of blurriness at some distances and magnifications to save a buck, since I have PAIRS of most of my guns and they all end up with scopes permanently attached ’cause, if you’ll pardon my southspeak, I can’t see good no more and I can’t afford that many “Good” scopes. I don’t need wide fields of view, illuminated reticles, my arms reach to the front of all my scopes so I can manage to adjust the focus just fine. The scope that I recommended to you, Geo, happens to have mildots but I couldn’t tell you whether they are the right size or spaced right or how they correspond to the click adjustments on the turrets, because all I use them for is to help me avoid hitting my aimpoint when I’m trying a new pellet. I use the second upper dot to make sure my shot lands low and preserves my bullseye for the next shot. I don’t hunt so my guns and their scopes lead pretty cushy lives and have survived the infrequent bumps and bangs OK. On guns like the 1077 and Wildfire I even used 4 X 15 Tascos for awhile as they were much better to me than the rudimentary open sights that come on those guns.

            I explain all of this so you understand that I am not necessarily the guy to ask if you are wanting the “Real Lowdown” on scopes. If my eyes were younger I’d probably just use open sights. The scope you are considering is probably better than you need is all I’m saying and it is well thought of by the folks that need more scope than I do. As for mounts, the rail runs the full length of the receiver so clearing the mag is no concern and I wouldn’t know how high you would need to go to clear the objective bell. Someone here recently posted his process for selecting mounts by getting dimensions from the manufacturer’s website and making cutouts and such. It may have been Chris USA, but I’m not certain.

            • Halfstep,

              Yup, that was I. And you are right on the cheaper scopes,.. they can be ok. The use parameters you listed suit a less expensive scope well. The Center Point that came on the Maximus is one such scope. It is front AO and I prefer side. Had it not been for that, I may have left that scope on it. For now, it will be going on a Custom Shop 2400, when I get around to that.

              • Chris
                What is making you want to buy a Crosman custom shop 2400 when you just got a 2240 for such a good price.

                Is it the other barrels they offer or the dress it up bling parts and the engraving?

                Why right now since you have a 2240 and all you need to do now is get a steel breech. A 1399 shoulder stock like the custom shop gun can be gotten with. And what ever barrel you want by looking at the Crosman parts diagrams of other similar Crosman rifles and pistols.

                Right now if you bought those parts for your 2240 you should still be cheaper than getting another gun from the custom shop. Performance should be no issue.

                So why the custom shop guns additional cost?

                • GF1,

                  1) The Custom comes with a fore grip (which I want), which requires a longer tube/new band/bracket/screws.
                  2) The adjustable trigger assy. is already installed. (Per H.S. blog)
                  3) It comes with a steel breech, which I need anyways.
                  4) It comes with the stock, which I need anyways.
                  5) I will have an extra barrel, which I can put on the 2240 I have.

                  The 2240 I have now is of little use as the opens and peeps do not work for me. To get it to work at the most basic level would at least require a stock and steel breech with an optical of some type.

                  On sights, I might consider a dot type for the Custom Shop one, but have no clue on where to start. Not a laser, but the open or closed dot/reticle type. That would keep it nice and light and good for quick, close (30yd. and in) shots.

                  So, does that answer some of the “why’s”?

                  • Chris
                    Some why’s.

                    But here is more for ya.
                    The custom shop guns come with a trigger assembly from the 2300 series guns from what I have seen. In other words only the trigger pull spring pressure is adjustable with a little brass block on top the sear spring. It does not have a two stage adjustable trigger and the same spring pressure adjustment or a trigger stop like a .22 Marauder pistol or Crosman 1720T.

                    And here is something else for ya if you want to put your tinkering skills to work. I have the front part of my Maximus stock I cut off. And remember it has a schnabel on the end you like. It has the same diameter tube opening as a 2240.

                    You can cut it to the legnth that fits your 2240. Then take the barrel band and drill and tap a bigger hole in where the bottom set screw goes. So you could then position the barrel band wherever it needs to be to line up the grip. Also the 1720T and Marauder pistol uses a little flat plate bracket off the front trigger assembly screw and attached to the forearm grip on those gun’s. So you could fashion something to work like that if you want.

                    I’ll gladly send you the front part of my Maximus stock if you want to try it for your 2240.

                    • GF1,

                      Thanks for the offer. A Schnabel would look good. I found the trigger to be good enough on the 2240 I have, without much shooting. I am not looking to re-do the trigger group. The trigger stop does appear on the Custom Shop photos, but is at the back and bottom of the trigger blade, through the guard. That would work for me, for a stop.

                      Nothing is “locked in” yet. Still looking at my options and appreciate all insight.

                  • Chris
                    Ok the way it sounded I thought you wanted a better trigger feel out of the 2249 or at least the two stage feel and adjustability. Although I do like the factory trigger assembly’s on the 2240’s and 2300 and 1300 series guns. You can cut or stretch the sear spring in those too to get the feel you want.

                    Also I have drilled and tapped holes for trigger stops in those trigger assembly’s too. So that’s a option on your 2240.

                    And the offer still stands if you want to try that Maximus front stock on your 2240. That would sure be a one off custom front grip if you do it. 🙂

                  • Chris
                    And I forgot to mention.

                    If you pull up a Marauder pistol parts diagram. You can order the trigger parts that will turn your 2240 into a a true two stage adjustable trigger just like how your .25 Marauder adjusts more or less. Plus it’s only about 4 parts I believe you need to get. And the parts are cheap.

                    And that’s what I like about these series guns we are talking about. Even the Discovery and Maximus. They will interchange in one form or another if you dig deep enough.

                    Definitely a thumbs up on Crosman for that thought process.

                    • Derrick
                      But he wants to put it on a 2240 that has a shorter tube.

                      Which he could cut it off back by the front of the trigger assembly.

                      That would be very similar to what I mentioned ,with the front of my Maximus stock.

                      And that fore grip looks like it came from a 1720T which I thought about too.

                      And have you heard of the RAI butt stock adapters that accept AR butt stocks?

            • Halfstep,

              Oh wow! you gave me a lot to digest here. Thank you for all of your input. I can see that you, Chris, and GF1 have several airguns of all types, and all of you like to mod them. Like B.B. stated way back when I first started commenting in this blog, “I just want a rifle that will shoot groups of 1″ or less at 25 yards consistently without a lot of messing around.” The artillery hold just drives me crazy trying to use it on my Diana RWS34P. I am not one to go cheap on things either. I won’t spend a ton of money on a high end PCP and the required equipment for HPA either. I usually go middle of the road on products and do a lot of research before making a purchase. I just couldn’t go cheap on a scope though, even though it might be much more than I need for pesting sparrows. Your Gamo Urban is very appealing to me because it appears to have good quality and a reasonable price. It also appears to be capable of shooting right along with the big name PCPs. I don’t want something I need to mod and improve before it can perform. And yes, I’m 72 so I know about the eye thing too. I tried shooting with open sights for B.B. and had a very difficult time doing that at 25 yards. B.B. wanted me to take the scope out of one possibilities for my poor groups on my RWS34. I’m still reading and researching too. The PCP is something I have been considering since last summer when I was still not able to shoot my RWS34 accurately. B.B. proved that the rifle could group 1″ at 25 yards but for the life of me, I can not achieve it. My groups are more in the 1.5 to 2″ area. So anyway, thanks for taking the time to give me your opinions. I glean information from all the folks here in the blog and find some of the subjects very interesting.

              Geo

          • Geo,

            I would say for sure (not) high. Med. should be fine and even lows may work. The barrel drops down from the rail, so if the objective bell ends up over that, there is a little more room. I like to keep scopes as low as I can. UTG rings are cheap enough that you could get and try both. If you get lows and they “almost work”,… removing the dust cover sleeve on the front will buy you another 1-2mm..

            The one I linked is a 30mm tube. I would go with that over a 1″. 30mm is supposed to allow better light transmission.

            When I did that full scale mock up on paper, I already had the M-rod and then used the great scope info. on the UTG site. As for rings, I do not remember if I used a pair I had or bought some. I will see if I can find some links to the UTG stuff, if you have not yet done so.

          • Geo,

            Here are 2 examples from the Leapers/UTG site:

            http://www.leapers.com/index.php?act=prod_detail&midx=1356&allids=1343_1356&itemno=SCP3-UGM312AOIEW

            http://www.leapers.com/index.php?act=prod_detail&midx=1409&allids=1363_1409&itemno=RGPM-25M4

            That should be all you need if you are inclined to do a bit of # crunching.

            Without looking at the models again, I would lean longer rather than shorter on scope length. I know weight was one of your concerns. The one I linked that I have is (not) the Bugbuster model. Those I believe are the shortest.

            Hope some of that helps ya. Chris

            • Chris

              Thanks for all the great information. I really like the looks of the scope in the compact size. The scope rings in the link are 1″ rings. I looked at the 30mm rings and they all appear to be for a Picatinny / Weaver mount. Any adapter would tend to raise the mount which I would want to avoid. I would for sure want to keep the dust covers to keep the lens clean. I’m still in the research mode as to the rifle and scope. Really liking what I see in the Gamo Urban verses the other options so far. Wish B.B. could get one to review.

              Geo

              • Geo,

                The links were to just get you there so that you can go from that point. The links were (random). At least you have some solid info. to work with. One bit of info. had different models listed in a chart and then had the different specs. listed per model. I was a bit surprised to find a singular set of specs..

          • Geo,

            Just tried the links. Well, that got you there, but click on “specifications” tab/box on the product page and (all shall be revealed) on the great specs. that I was referring to.

  15. The new issue of Backwoodsman (one of my favorite magazines) has three articles on airguns 1870 Giradoni, the Gat and the Avanti champion. If you see it on the newsstand I highly recommend it.

  16. I promised a few of the regulars here a report on the Wolverine so here it is.

    It’s not that cold, just above freezing, but I wimped out anyway, shooting out the kitchen door. I had considered shooting down a 20 yd hallway but this was easier and fortunately my wife tolerates these shenanigans.

    I installed the UTG 4 – 16 x 56 scope with bubble level last night using the high picatinny 30 mm rings it comes with. This required an adapter. This one worked very nicely and you’d have to look to see its there.

    /product/utg-11mm-3-8-dovetail-to-weaver-adapter-2pcs?a=4148

    Very nice scope. I do have a little struggle seeing the bubble, and I get the feeling its not truly level. I’ll check that out with a large level later. I worked fine for this test. Very clear. Nice fine mil dots.

    I sighted first at 10 feet with 2 shots to see if it was on paper and somewhat consistent. The scope won’t focus that close. Second shot – where is it? Not on paper? I moved the reticle a little toward center and fired a 3rd. It went where I expected so I think the 1st two went in one hole. Smiling a bit now.

    I moved the reticle more to center, up a couple full turns and shot a 5 shot group at 10 yds. I initially want to see if I’m getting what I paid for so I chose what most say is this gun’s most accurate pellet, the JSB Jumbo Heavy 18.13 gr.

    I reviewed Toms writing on how to measure groups using a caliper. Of course I may be off but this looks really good at 0.13″.

    I only have one charge so I decided to move out to 25 yds with the same pellet. I’m measuring yardage with a tape.
    This 5 shot group measures 0.27″. About double the 10 yd group. I had thought the POI would move more. The groups are close to each other, but not overlapping.

    I already know now it performs as I had hoped. I have two more targets to share.

    • Idaho,

      🙂 x100! I am happy for ya’!!! Looking forwards to when you can stretch it out a bit more. I can relate on the weather. 🙁 “Shenanigans”,…. I like that. She sounds as if she might be a “keeper”. 😉

    • Idaho,

      1 note. That scopes looks to be awful high. I like them low myself. The distance from the front bell to the barrel will tell you if can go lower. Turret/scope tube to magazine area would be the other factor to consider. Since the comb/cheek is fixed, that factors into it as well. The way you have it now may suit you best on cheek weld/eye position.

      I don’t know,… just some FYI to ponder.

  18. Time to move the target back to 50 yds.
    Still testing with the 18 gr JSBs.
    Didn’t make sense to switch until after I see what happens at 50 which takes me right to the edge of the forest.
    I decide on 10 shot groups for better reliability.

    So far I’ve been single loading, wanting to exclude any effect from the magazine as I’ve heard some experience an accuracy decline from the magazine. The first lower group was single loaded and measures 1.14″. There’s a 5 – 10 mph breeze and some gusting so it seems about right. Eight of ten form a 0.64″ group.

    The next 10 shot group was shot using the magazine and 3 mil dots hold over. It measures 1.18″, with nine of ten in a 0.90″ group. Seems the magazine has no effect but I’ll do more testing.

    One more target to go. The pressure gauge is out of the green into the yellow.

    • Idaho
      Nice all the way around.

      But to me it looks like single loading did better than the magazine.

      The 8 in .640″ is what is making me think single loading is better. Maybe the two pellets that opened the group up to 1.140″ where pulled shots some what.

      The magazine did all 10 shots in a bigger group than single loading of 1.180″ and 9 in .900″.

      Or am I missing something.

      • GF

        I agree it looks that way. I was not aware of any pulled shots but you know how that goes.

        My understanding is a fresh barrel may be prone to some fliers. I plan to shoot it more and do more comparison.

        It’s all on hold until my tank arrives.

        • Idaho
          When I read your comment about the group’s with and without the mag you made it sound like there was not much difference in group size and the mag made no difference.

          To me it’s a big difference with and without the mag. I think without the mag will represent your guns grouping the best. Probably the two shots I said we’re pulled shots could of bee from the wind kicking up.

          I myself think you will have a gun that will end up shooting in the .700-.900″ range at 50 yards. With those pellets anyway.

          And there is nothing wrong with that. 🙂

          • GF1,

            Like I always say,.. repeat testing over several days is the only way to say for sure what (it) or (I) can do on a regular basis. Without looking again, there may be a power adjuster that has yet to be played with? Remember too, he will be using dive shop air since he has one super close. So that is the tank he is waiting on. At least he got to try it out with the air that was sent with it. Come to think of it, I doubt that was even a full charge it was sent with. If I recall, the M-rod and Maximus were sent with around 1000.

            • Chris
              Exactly on the repeat testing.

              And don’t just do it on another day. Go as far as taking notes about group’s shot at different seasons of the year and different days.

              I’m tell’n ya groups change with different conditions that the gun is in.

              Maybe most people don’t even notice that. But if you shoot 7 days a week for hours on end you do start seeing more about how different conditions make the guns performance change.

              We don’t know anybody like that do we? 😉

            • Chris

              There’s no power adjustment on the Wolverine. I thought that over and decided it didn’t matter to me since most adjusters don’t save air.

              It was test fired and shipped with a full charge. He also installed swivel studs no charge.

              I’d prefer numbers on the pressure gauge. All I have is colors. I suppose chrony testing will sort that out.

              I have to say PCP is awesome. Accurate shooting with mil dots. Low recoil – I can see pellet flight. No cleaning – that’s huuuge! Shooting out my back door, no driving to a range – even “huuger”

              • Idaho,

                I looked it up again after the post. I see that it has a “sling shot hammer” and promotes itself as being super efficient. Like Halfstep’s Stormrider is less efficient than his Urban. It sounds as if the valve is “tuned” well. Thanks on the charge info.. I was not aware that PCP’s were shipped with a full charge. Well, at least that afforded you some play time while awaiting your tanks arrival.

                • Chris

                  This is the best overview of the slingshot system I’ve found. The friend who sold it to my and has repaired all types for may years verified that its more reliable than a regulator which he sees needing service a fair bit.

                  http://www.airgunmagazine.co.uk/features/hammer-time-slingshot-valve/

                  I keep coming back to the Urban as a possible second gun. Even though Gamo does not have a great rep that is a value package for sure, and dealer support isnt quite as important on the lower cost guns. I have to check if Tom has reviewed one. If not he should.

                  Tanks cannot be shipped with a charge. Guns can. He’s having it drop shipped, soon hopefully.

                    • Gunfun1,

                      PA does specify that it is Ground Shipping only. Probably they have an insurance arrangement with FedEx and/or UPS?

                      Siraniko

                    • GF

                      I did a search on this and gave up. Rules on shipping compressed gases are hard to nail down. I just know my HPA tank could not be shipped full. I’m guessing tank size is a factor.

                      CO2 is of course lower pressure. Unless the tank gets hot. Lots of rules that are clear as mud.

                  • Idaho,

                    Thank you very, very much for that. Quite fascinating and something I have never heard of. It makes perfect sense. Someone with a small home lathe could do something like that. Adjustable hammer tension could further produce some options.

                    (Worth a quick review Ya’all. Just sayin’.)

                    I can see when shopping some of the higher end stuff that is not often seen everyday in the U.S. market,… that checking out the U.K. sites might be very well worthwhile.

                  • Idaho and Siraniko
                    Yep I do know that HPA buddy bottles and full HPA bottles are suppose to be empty when shipped. And I thought also air guns.

                    And then I think why is Co2 bulk fill ok. I don’t think that bulk fill have blow offs/burst discs.

                    But still yet 1000 psi isn’t no joke if it let’s go.

                    And Idaho. That is basically a antibounce system. That seems to be the new wave of regulating a PCP.. there was others in the past that worked just as well that just consisted of multiple o-rings in front of the striker/hammer. Another is what some people do on the AirForce guns. Put different thickness o-rings in back of the too hat. Did it on my AirForce Talon SS. Worked great.

          • GF

            If I delete the 2 furthest R shots from the mag fed group it measures 0.70”. So the 8/10 comparison is very close.

            I need a tank!

            Any thoughts on the so called “seasoning” of barrels? If it’s real perhaps it will shoot 0.5” at 50

            • Idaho
              Seasoning the new barrel?

              Or seasoning each pellet type you try with multiple shots before shooting groups and moving to a different pellet?

              I believe yes in both cases.

                • Idaho
                  I believe if your testing pellets that you should take at least 20 or so shots before actually shooting groups with a pellet.

                  I think on these lines. There is different hardness of lead pellets used by different brands. So I believe that multiple shots should be taken with each new brand and type tryed to get the barrel possibly cleaned or even lead deposited in the barrel.

                  You’ll just have to test it for yourself to see.

                  But back along time ago I was testing different pellets to see what difference they made in different guns.

                  Needless to say it can be very eye opening.

  19. Everything is fed by the 10 shot magazine now. It’s very easy to load and use.
    There’s plenty of clearance, 1/2″ or so between it and the scope and it slides in from the side. In fact I think medium mounts would be fine as there’s plenty of clearance at the scope objective as well.
    A nice feature is the magnet holding it – just pull the bolt back and slide it in place.
    The bolt is smooth, but I’m surprised at the force needed for cocking. The other hand has to hold the gun.

    I decided to test other pellet types at 25 yds.
    My apologies for how messy this target is. There’s two reasons. One is the snow, the other is I don’t know how to load more than one image per post.

    I’ve seen great reports with the AA 16 gr pellets so this was my next choice.
    A 5 shot group measured 0.25″. Apparently this is another great pellet for this gun.

    Next I went to the RWS pellet sampler and picked the Straton Jumbo 15.89 gr.
    This 25 yd 5 shot group opens up to 1.72″!
    Well, OK then the Wolverine does not have an appetite for everything.

    I wondered if pressure loss was a factor as the shot count is now 45. Chrony testing will come later.

    On to the Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum (non hollow point). These are also know to shoot well.
    This group measures 0.32″. Nice to have options.

    Back to the sample pack. This time I picked the Exact Jumbo RS 13.43 gr and got a group of 0.75″.

    In order to see if pressure drop was affecting results I shot one final group with the AA 16 gr.
    This group was 0.35 ” – larger but proves this was not the cause of the poor performance by other pellets.

    That’s it for today. I’m a happy camper. A lot of research went into the purchase. I know very well a lot of other guns could make me just as happy, but I’m just glad to have this one. Let me know what you think.

    • Idaho,

      Nice shooting and a really fine rifle, at that price point I think anything less than great performance would be a deal breaker.

      Also a nice inadvertent link to James’ Airgun Zeroing Target; http://jamesmarchington.blogspot.com/2008/12/airgun-zeroing-target.html that leads to a full sized version; https://www.flickr.com/photos/23128023@N08/3145780296/ that further leads to another target; https://www.flickr.com/photos/23128023@N08/3171258815/in/album-72157612159487985/

      And there is no way to add more than one picture to a post, of course you could stick multiple pictures into one jpg file to get it all in.

      Happy for your happiness

      Mike

        • Idaho,

          Your first PCP, I do not know if you could have started with a better one.

          The squirrel target prints very nice indeed, well he is a journalist, he has to take good pictures.

          Mike

      • Mike In Atl,

        Thanks for those links. That zeroing target looks great. I’ll probably make some of those. The squirrel, on the other hand will, probable be a little expensive to make on a home printer because of the full color nature of it. Since I have retired I no longer have the use of the company Xerox machine. 🙂 I think that I may copy it to Paint and do an outline of it that would maintain the scale of everything but would be cheaper to print at home, at the cost of the great realism of the original, of course.

        • Halfstep,

          Don’t thank me thank James Marchington, he made those targets I just linked them.

          Anyway if you print the squirrel in draft mode and make it greyscale that will conserve ink in your printer, another idea is to print it once and cut it out as a template to cut more.

          My favorite target is of course this one; /product/national-target-air-rifle-target-12-bullseye-100-ct?a=3539 for 9.95 you get 100 sheets with 12 bulls per page that comes out to less than a penny per target.

          I have a vector graphics program called Inkscape which is free so I was trying to duplicate the NRA official air rifle targets and got it spot on when printed from Inkscape the official bulls come out at just a touch over 45 mm in diameter.

          Unfortunatly when exported to jpg they print at 43 mm, well close but the quality went down so I tried exporting it to PDF format and the quality went up and they printed to 45 mm. YAY

          Well the blog will not take the PDF format so here is the lower quality 43 mm version while not quite perfect should work just as well.

          Of course this target will eat some ink too not sure which way would be cheaper.

            • Gunfun1,

              Thanks, here is what I am talking about with the quality, on the left is printed from the vector graphic software, on the right is the exported jpg image printed.

              It is ok but kinda fuzzy.

              Mike

                • Gunfun,

                  I am not sure if you understand what I have done or not so bear with me.

                  The 12 bull picture is an image file that I made with a vector graphics software, if you have a computer and printer you could download that and print it and it will look fuzzy like the bull on the right of the two bull picture. The bull on the left was printed directly from the vector graphics software and looks much more sharp also the right fuzzy bull is 2 mm smaller.

                  What I did was print the 12 bull image from a file and printed the 12 bull target from the vector graphics program then placed the targets overlaping on the table and took the 2 bull picture with the cell phone centering on 2 bulls to show the difference between the image file and the vector graphics original.

                  That makes sense I hope.

                  • Mike
                    Yep makes sense. I see the results.

                    But no. I’m not there yet on the other part of making it happen.

                    Definitely not good at that stuff.

                    Would like to be. But not.

                    • Gunfun,

                      I understand, this is my first try at a vector graphics program took some time to figure out how to just make that target and that is an easy one.

                      Guess I just like learning new stuff, even stuff I don’t know just dive in and figure it out.

                      I think you are the same, just doing it with parts you can hold, shape and make into something.

    • Idaho,

      You got a lot done on one charge of air and you SHOULD be happy, that’s a great shootin’ gun you’ve just bought yourself. Is your handle Idaho because that’s where you live? I hate winter and wherever you are it looks like you’ve got it in spades. So jealous of you and GunFun both for being able to sit in the house and shoot 50 yards and more in weather like that. We have been dry but in the single digits and with winds that create sub zero wind chills. My wife tells me that Tues and Wed we are getting into the upper 50s and low 60s so I’m planning to get in all the shooting that I can. ( I think getting my shooting moved out of the basement is the primary reason she did the weather girl presentation )

      About the picture posting. If those pics are on your computer or you can get them onto your computer and if it’s a Windows machine, you can paste them into a basic graphics program called Paint that will let you put several of them side by side and then save that like it was all one big picture. Then you post that one. And if you already knew that just ignore me. 😉

    • Idaho,

      I’ve never heard of a RWS pellet called a Straton Jumbo. I googled it and got a JSB Straton Jumbo. Is that the one you have? I was unaware of either of them. I also just found someone shooting JSB Straton Jumbo Monsters on YouTube. They look to be JSB Exact Jumbo Monsters with a conical head instead of a domed head. If you have anymore info about any of these pellets I’d like to hear more.

      • Halfstep

        It’s actually a JSB sample pack. Sorry about that. Here’s a link.

        /product/jsb-match-diabolo-test-sampler-22-cal-round-nose-pointed-4-pellet?p=959

        I think I could shoot more rounds, I’m just not sure where velocity drops off. I may get out the chrony before the tank arrives and see where its at. Looks like its still over 150 bar so I guess I could look up shot string reports to find out. I quit because I figured it had to be ready to drop off after 60 shots, and I had enough done for a report.

  20. Mike

    So much great stuff on the net. No wonder airgunning is taking off. I’m going to print that squirrel.

    I didn’t mention the trigger. Light and breaks like glass. It will need no adjustment.

  21. Here is a short update on my Crosman WildFire that was leaking.

    Yesterday I placed electrical tape around the transfer tube between the valve and pressure tube to give it a snug fit in the receiver. I placed the tape on the strait piece going to the valve next to the 90 degree bend.

    This morning it is still holding air with no change in the gauge reading. I will report back after shooting it. Hopefully it will keep holding air.

    Don

      • GF1,

        Looks like it was the tube, I shot a magazine of pellets and refilled to 1900 psi. On this fill I heard a pop but is sounded like the check valve. So far it is holding air after some shooting and a refill.

        Don

        • Benji-Don
          Good news.

          But I have to ask. You say a pop. A pop is abrubt.

          The sound my WildFire made when the tube let pressure by was a bit abrubt.

          When the check valve finally opens to allow air into the guns resivoir is more of a click. And you have to be paying attention to hear it. And even feel it if you place your finger on the check valve when filling.

          That’s something I’m very in tune to. Is that click. That tells me my fill pressure in the gun when I’m refilling. The old AirForce non spin lock tanks didn’t have a gauge on the bottle like the spin lock tanks have that are sold now.

          So I would like a clarification of what you heard.

          • GF1,

            I think you have stated it pretty good. When I say pop that was what it was like both times. But before it seemed different than this time it gave me the impression it was the check valve which it did not do before. Neither one was what I call a click. And it was more of a feel for me as my ears are just about shot, just ask Kate. So I felt it about as much as heard it. Will let you know with more use. For now it is holding air so I won’t be looking a gift horse in the mouth.

            Before the pop felt like it was coming from the valve area. This time it felt like it was from the check valve. Oh and my short term memory is as bad as my ears. Before it happened at about 1950-2000 psi. So check valve was already open. Last time it seemed to happen when the gauge on the tank matched the gauge on the gun. I can’t see them both easily but I knew the gun pressure before I started filling. So that is the best reason I think it was the check valve.

            That is about all that comes to me.

            Don

            • Benji-Don
              All good.

              I just wasn’t sure of what you heard.

              All in all have positive results.

              So definitely good. And as it goes. Leave it to us air gunners to find and fix the faults.
              🙂

      • GF1,

        PCP I would think. I think that he has at least one in the PCP test pipeline (Kral-Puncher-Breaker). Different types of power plants too. It does not have to be all at once,… just over time as the different types (power plants) of test subjects present themselves. Old multi-pumps, new springers, PCP’s, old springers, Co2, etc., etc.. Note: A consistent way of “dinging” a skirt would be ideal. Maybe a “jig” of sorts. Then again, eyeballing it might be good enough.

        Regardless,.. it would be quite the undertaking.

        From that,.. a single report could be presented.

        • Chris
          Nope not where I was going.

          It’s already been tested and I’m sure he has his plate full.

          But on the other hand it would be nice to see BB test it also.

          But then again how many tests would need conducted to give a overall result.
          😉

    • Chris,

      That seems like a good guest blog for you to take on. We can help with a set of criteria on how to damage the pellets and what distance to set the targets. 🙂

      Don

      • Don,

        I am quite flattered that you think that I am worthy of such great test. I can also assure you that I am not the guy to do it. Lots of time and excellent computer skills would be a must,… of which I posses neither of.

        Now,…. YOU on the other hand????,…. just sayin’. 😉

        • Chris,

          Go for it, I think you said you don’t have a camera, get one.

          You can type right? Yea you do it here all the time.

          Computer skills you should learn those anyway and doing something like this would help in that direction as well.

          You don’t have to have it ready tomorrow, take your time and see what you come up with.

          There, you have no further excuses. 😉

        • Chris,

          I think you could have fun with this one. If you control the damage to various locations on the pellet it could be very interesting to see what the effect is on the pellets accuracy.

          You can get some ideas from folks on the blog and select the ones you like. Once it is set up I don’t think the testing would take long. The writeup will take some time though.

          I think your Marauder would be a good gun to use.

          Don

      • B.B.,

        As best I re-call, the topic came up on the blog in the comment section. A link to another blog was posted where a fellow did some tests. I suggested that you do a test on if damaged pellets affect accuracy. You said that you thought that it could be very interesting. Unless you have already done something. This was in the last 2 weeks-ish.

        https://web.archive.org/web/20160517152841/http://varmintair.typepad.com/varmintairs_blog/ammo/pellets/

        I understand if you think that it might too much to fit in.

        Chris

          • B.B.,

            Yes, the testing parameters bears some thought. Many variables can be entered,.. or limited. Siraniko had a good comment on the 1/8 blog, which I replied to, which I am sure you will see.

            Perhaps we can assist you with your research and link up some stuff for quicker study? I am sure all you would have to is ask (as a side note) in a regular blog. At least it would be time saver for you, give you some ideas and at least be a start. Just an idea,.. as usual,… 😉

            Chris

  23. Hey BB, hope you see this one. I received my 102 and have been shooting it today. Mine does not feed anywhere as well as your’s did for this test, I am getting used to it’s quirks though but still get several dry shots per ammo fill using CPHPs. I hated to find that Crosman does not make 22 wadcutters any longer. My question though is about FPS. 4 pumps are getting me only 308fps. I can not find anything online about rebuilding these things as to how involved it is or if any special tools needed.

    Can you address any TIAT type tuneups that might help without completely disassembling the gun or other suggestions?

    • Bob,

      Did you oil the pump head? That’s where to start. After that it takes a rebuild to get the power back, but the velocity you quoted sounds about right for a .22.

      BB

      • Thanks BB. Everything looked well lubricated but with your suggestion, I went ahead and oiled it. I let it sit a while and I am still getting about the same speed. Even 8 pumps only gives me 333fps to your 536fps. I am using the same pellet you did in your test above, CPHP’s, and you were getting 431fps to my 308fps with 4 pumps so I figure mine needs some work. Hey at least it shoots though 🙂

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