by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This Diana model 5 air pistol is marked as a Winchester model 353.
This report covers:
- Iconic air pistol
- History
- Winchester
- Gun Broker
- The gun
- Grip
- Sights
- Trigger
- Expected performance
Iconic air pistol
Today we begin looking at one of the most iconic air pistols of all time — Diana’s model 5. In all my years as an airgunner, I have never owned a model 5! I’ve seen them, handled them and shot them, but have never owned one. I have owned 2 Diana model 10 target pistols that are related to the model 5, if not that similar. The model 10 has the Giss anti-recoil mechanism and is the target version of the model 6, while the model 5 is a conventional recoiling air pistol. Models 5 and 6 look a lot alike, except for the round caps on either side of the model 6’s spring tube that house the Giss anchors.
History
The model 5 has a long and colorful history. It was made from 1931 to 1940 as the model 5V, and, although the Blue Book of Airguns tells us that model is not the same as the post-war model 5, they are related. The 5V had a wooden grip and was actually documented in a guest blog some years ago.
Diana made the model 5 pistol we are looking at here from 1958 to 1978, but if you include the models 5GM and P5 Magnum, that time extends to 2008. There was a break in manufacture from 1978 until the ’90s, so the ’58 to ’78 timeframe is the most accurate for the pistol before us today.
Winchester
Actually, the pistol I am testing for you is marked as a Winchester model 353. Winchester never made airguns, but in the 1970s they had Diana make certain models with their name on them. These airguns are no rarer than Diana airguns marked with the maker’s name, but in the United States people often put a premium on the Winchester name. Airgunners know better, but firearms people often don’t. So, if you find one of these at a gun show, expect to pay more, based on the Winchester name.
The Winchester name often adds value to the pistol in the U.S.
Gun Broker
I found this pistol on the Gun Broker auction website. A trusted dealer I buy from was listing it, so I felt secure. However, if it needed any work, there are still plenty of parts available. Usually these “Winchester” airguns draw a lot of interest, but for some reason this was one wasn’t, so I got it. It’s in 95 percent condition, with 100 percent bluing and some light scratches on the plastic stock/grip. The action is tight and new-feeling, and even the breech seal looks good. As old as it is (40-45 years), I’m thinking this one might have recently been overhauled.
The gun
The model 5 is a large breakbarrel spring-piston air pistol. Overall length is slightly more than 15-3/4-inches, with the barrel being slightly more than 7 of those inches. The weight is 3 lbs. 1 oz., which is more than the Blue Book states (2.4 lbs.). That makes it a large air pistol — definitely not for younger shooters. In size it’s the equivalent of the BSA Scorpion that is similar to the BSF S20 and larger than the Webley Hurricane.
It’s a breakbarrel, which also makes it a single shot. This one is a .177, though the model was also offered in .22. The effort to break the barrel and cock the pistol is in-keeping with its size and weight. I will test that for you in Part 2.
The rest of the gun is very conventional. Mostly blued steel on the outside, other than the plastic grip — a very conservative airgun of the style of the 1950s.
Grip
The dark brown plastic grip is an extension of the pistol’s stock that houses the entire barreled action. It is one piece and features coarse checkering all around the grip. And there is a thumbrest on the left side because, as you know, until around 1990, everyone was right-handed.
Coarse checkering is characteristic of Diana model 5 grips.
Sights
The sights are a strange mix. The front sight is a fixed tapered post inside a globe. It belongs on a cheaper air pistol. The rear sight, in sharp contrast, is a highly adjustable target-type notch. The rear sight begs for a front sight with interchangeable inserts, but this one doesn’t have them.
Some model 6 pistols have the identical front sight, while others have a globe sight with interchangeable inserts. As far as I can see, though, the nicer sight will not fit on the model 5, because it attaches to the model 6 barrel with a purpose-built sleeve. Maybe a reader with more experience than I can elaborate.
The front sight appears to be a globe with inserts, but this photo shows that its really a fixed tapered post. Some model 6 pistols have this same front sight.
The rear sight is fully adjustable. I need to find out why this one is adjusted way over to the right.
Trigger
The trigger is 2-stage and there is a single adjustment with a locking screw. My guess is the adjustment is the control the length of the first stage. At present stage 2 is difficult to feel. The let off pressure is nearly equal to the first stage pressure and both are light.
Expected performance
According to the Blue Book I can expect to see up to 450 f.p.s. with lightweight pellets in .177 caliber. That should tell me how healthy this powerplant is when I test it.
There is a lot to see and experience in this report. I know many of you own model 5s, so please tell us your experiences. Let’s see what this one can do.
B.B.
i have a mod. 5-G that has the same sights on it and I have it all the way in the opposite direction to get on target. Not sure what to make of it, but it does shoot pretty well. The trigger is adjustable and nice. I think it might be a newer version than yours as it has 2 piece grips with the polymer frame. The left grip has a much more pronounced thumb shelf along the whole length of the top of the grip. I don’t shoot it much because my eyes and open sights don’t make a very good mix. If it had a rail, I could mount a red dot but it doesn’t so I probably should just sell it to someone that could.
I receieved my new UTG 4×16 Bubble level scope last week and I am totally impressed with it! I didn’t know it but I have a real strong tendency to shoulder my gun with a cant to it. With this scope my 50 yd. groups tightened up right away. I had never used a mil-dot reticle before but, when coupled with my new rangefinder, my longer range hunting capabilities just extended out quite a bit farther.
Bruce
Bruce,
Thank you for your look at the 5G. I think I have tested one of them, because the grip does sound familiar.
I’m glad you like the Bubble Leveler scope. I think the optics are stunning and I, too, cant my rifles when shooting offhand. You always hope you do it the same every time, but probably not.
B.B.
Bruce,
Congrats on the scope! They are indeed some sweet optics for the price!
B B B,
Awesome on the new scope. I love the mil-dots. The UTG’s are so fine and crisp. I could not imagine shooting without mil dots. Precision aiming is a breeze and even allow 1/4 and 3/4 dot holds, like when that PCP starts to drop off the curve and the 1/2 dot hold needs a little more. Enjoy!
Chris -RR
I’m really enjoying the new scope but it looks pretty big on my Disco. I bought it with the idea of mounting it on something with a little more substance to it, like may a .25 Marauder. Looking for about 40 fpe and M-rod seems to fall into that range. There’s a lot of new stuff out there in the same general price range that looks interesting, but the m-rod has great after-market goodies and excellent parts support. How is a guy supposed to make those kind of decisions?
Bruce
Bruce,
🙂 It is tuff. The 4-16X56 fits nice on the M-rod. I do not have the level, but shoot from a bi-pod, so the level is same regardless. R.A.I. stock with FAB Defense butt fully extended. It is a good mid ranged priced gun. Tin can MOA at 100yds. at least 8 of 10 times. That 3000 psi might be a bit of a chore on the hand pump though. Doing it again,.. I would look more at regulated. I am very happy with what I have though.
Chris
Chris,
I never had a pump, I figured I was too old and broken to consider it so I started with 92 ci bottle. Dive shop is 7 min away. With 3000 psi fill and almost 2x the reservoir size on the m-rod, a bigger tank will have to come along pretty quickly. I also am planning on installing a regulator right away. That kind of consistent shot string #’s would really be great when out hunting. One less thing to worry about when lining up for a shot.
Bruce
Bruce
You will need a 4500 psi tank to fill a Mrod if you got one and was filling it to 3000 psi.
The tank your filling from has to be a higher pressure than your maximum fill of your gun.
If your filling a Mrod from your tank that’s at 3000 psi it won’t fill it.
Unless I misinterpreted what you mean.
GF- 1,
Yup, I started out with a 4500 psi, 92cu. in. CF bottle but it will be too small to keep an M-rod well fed. I get about 13-14 fills(1100 up to 1900psi) on the Disco but will probably get about 6 for the M-rod. I would like to find at least a 75 cu. ft. tank as soon as I get the gun bought.
Bruce
Here’s the tank I used with my Mrod and other pcp’s.
/product/benjamin-carbon-fiber-tank-90-cu-in-gauge-hose-w-female-quick?a=4203
I got around 10 fills out of it with the Mrods I had depending on begining and end fill pressures.
And it sounded to me like you had a 3000 psi tank when I read your reply instead of a 4500 tank.
And if your only filling your 92 cu. In. tank to 3000 psi at the dive shop for your Discovery. You would get way more fills if that bottle could be filled to 4500 psi for your Discovery.
Is it a a 3000 psi max fill tank or a 4500 psi max fill tank?
GF-1
The tank I have had from the start is the same size as yours, but is Air Venturi brand. The dive shop fills to 4500 psi. I recently put in an FFH and I have noticed less air consumption per fill on the gun.
Bruce
What’s a FFH?
And is the Air Venturi tank regulated?
GF-I
” Free Floating Hammer” in the disco. The bottle is regulated to 2900 psi. output .
brucebbrammeier@gmail.com catch me there
Bruce
Ok on the anti bounce device.
And you should get more than 6 fills on a Mrod I would think with your bottle.
Anyway why more than 6 fills do you need anyway on your Mrod? That’s alot of shots before you need to top off your tank.
Bruce,
I get 4 fills. But that is with a 12# hammer spring and filling to 3500. You may get 6. If I start with a full gun and a full tank (4500), that would be 5 fills before filling the tank again. I have the Guppy which is nice and has 2 gauges. The one shows the pressure in the tank at all times, even when not hooked to the gun.
I read some of your comments below. I like the way you are not afraid to get inside and play around a bit. On regulation, I was referring to guns that already had it. I do not know I will ever see the day I would plop down near 2 grand on one though. You are right, there seems to be endless mods. that can be done to the M-rod. That SSG device has seen quite a bit of refinement from what it started as. I would be surprised if someone over at GTA has not already started offering them for sale.
By the way, the Maximus is a great pick up and go gun. I got the Hunter version and it is threaded for a brake. It feels and point like a dream. The scope that came on it is quite useable as well, just not as nice as a UTG.
All I can say is good luck and have fun. Keep us posted on what you get. A full out makeover on a new M-rod would make for a very interesting guest blog. Something to think about.
Chris
Bruce,
I should have added, that is 24 shots per fill with no ~ little drop in poi. My usual is 1″ at 70 yards but there always seems to be flier or 2 in the bunch. Could just be me though. GF1 seems to get better groups. When tuning, I noted that striker adjustment was moving. I used some blue Loc-Tite. I did that too on the hammer adjustment. The only other thing I would do to it at this point is maybe a different barrel. I think the barrel on it is a Green Mountain that comes stock.
I have the Shoebox 10 and it takes 25 minutes to fill from 3500 to 4500. No dive shops around here close. I would get the A.V. compressor most likely if I were to buy a new compressor again. The 10 is actually a 10, minus the bigger pulley and belt. But, I have the bigger pulley and belt that makes it a 10. I seemed to catch them mid change over of the 8 and 10. They sent me a free belt and pulley. I am just using the old 8 set-up for now. If I had the new pulley and belt on it, that 25 minutes would be less.
Chris,
My bottle also has 2 gauges but I had to buy the line pressure gauge after market.
Since I will tune to 38-40 fpe , I hope I will be able to get 25-30 shots per fill. With a regulator and an SSG installed, I could get even more. Main idea is to keep extreme spread and standard deviation as low as possible.
The cost of a Shoebox 10 and shop compressor together makes the new Air Venturi rig a viable option at $1300, but first, the gun and a bigger bottle are in line.
Bruce
Chris USA
Pretty good groups at 70. Did you upgrade your trigger? I’m guessing you have but I must have missed it? I just changed mine a week ago. Not much chance to shoot groups but initial testing is promising.
Punchin Holes,
No trigger upgrade. I really was not aware there was one. Mine is set a 1 1/2# and is fine for me. First time I had it down, it got moly in all the right places. The fliers are what bugs me. I have weighed and even got a Pelletgage. About the only thing I have not tried is tuning the fps down to match a pellet. The 15.89 and 18.13’s are what I shoot. Tried some others but the JSB’s won out,.. as they usually do.
CUSA
O I MUST have READ that wrong. I thought you said 1″ with the maximus. If your talking about your me Of then I bet that’s nice. My new mrod trigger is kinda rough but an enormous improvement over the maximus oem unit.
Punchin Holes,
1″ at 50 is more like the Maximus. I got it for a “30 and in” critter getter. I still need to shoot it more,.. a lot more. I got it Ohio-mid-Jan. and lucked out with a few warm days. As for the Max. trigger,.. I pulled the safety and it was less than a measured pound. Too light. Cut the trigger return spring as well. A slight tweak (bend) of the sear spring is next. It is at around 3# now. Goal is 1 1/2#. Moly, of course.
Oppps! Big oppps! 25.39 and 33.95’s. 🙁
CUSA
I had thoughts of going that route but I changed my mind for superficial reasons. I’m glad it’s working out well for you.
I’m glad I did because I really like the feel (2stage) I also have grown fondly of the safety oddly enough.
Punchin Holes,
Oh, I did the two 4-40 screws in the trigger too. I like it. I really did not buy it for a project gun, but you know how that goes.
BB,
Other than the 6M and the 10, which by the way I would really like to get my hands on, I have to say that I have never liked the looks of these old air pistols. The stock makes them look so bulky. It is almost like they did a great job of designing the pistol itself and then put a half hearted attempt in putting grips on it.
I am looking forward to this review though. Show us that this old gal can still cook.
B.B.,
I enjoyed looking at the various “5” series in the Blue Book. You threw a lot of them around in the article and it was nice to look up the differences. On the 5, the book states wood grips to 1960, light gray in the early 70’s and later dark brown. So,… maybe yours fits in the mid~later part of the 70’s of the ’58~’78 run?
That said, the cross over chart in the rear does state the other branded guns could vary in parts and even power levels. So who knows,.. it may be earlier.
Did I mention I like the Blue Book? 😉
Chris
B.B.
Thanks for this report! The Diana 5 is near and dear to me.
I have a 6G. However, it has the grips from the Diana 10. When I bought my 6G, I could have bought the 10, but I believed that the sliding barrel sleeve could be problematic.
I had my 6G brought back to life last year and I love it!
-Y
Yogi,
I never found the sliding barrel sleeve to be problematic, but the original Diana piston seals certainly were. They all crumbled over time. Today Diana makes blue seals that seem to last forever, so once resealed a Diana 5/6/10 should be good to go for a long time.
How do you like the palm shelf extension that slides backward into the heel of your hand? I don’t think any other 10 meter pistol has that feature.
B.B.
The pistol had sat in my Mom’s basement for 25 years, unloved. First shot in 25 years, no problem. Second shot, problem! Off to a Gliss expert it went…..Good to know the new seals are long lasting.
I really like the adjustable shelf. It DOES help in supporting the pistol. My problem with it is it works best when it is very tight to the bottom of your hand. Because it is so tight, it often slips a little, just a little, but enough not be be very tight to the bottom of my hand. Maybe a longer screw would hold it better?????
-Y
Yogi,
Maybe you have the bottom shelf adjusted a little too tight. I never had a problem with slippage.
B.B.
I have a Diana/RWS 5G airpistol with the plastic end cap. It’s an accurate informal target/plinking pistol once you fix the upward droop barrel , loose end cap, and annoying automatic safety.
I believe there is still a niche market for well made, spring piston air pistols. I know Weihrauch and Diana make some of the best pistols out there, but who wouldn’t like to see an Air Arms or FWB break barrel air pistol?
Probably not, they must cost an arm and a leg…
I am looking forward to more on this one! The classic model 5 is a wonderful air pistol…well-made, beautifully finished, accurate, good power, and IMHO a very underrated trigger.
I believe you are correct in saying the model 6 sight may not fit (have never actually tried it though). But the model 5’s front sight mounting grooves are the same as on Diana rifles of the day, so one could put the interchangeable-insert front sight made for the models 27, 35, and 50 on there if desired.
When the postwar 5 was introduced, it at first had a wood grip/frame, and some extra touches to the metal work. These must have been quite expensive to manufacture, and didn’t last very long. Here’s a look at one for anybody interested:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/405945/message/1247449933/Diana+model+5%2C+1960
I find these rare early ones more attractive than the later plastic stock, but I have to say the latter fits my hand better! Really a very comfortable gun to shoot.
Various versions of the models 5 and 6 lasted for many years on the market, of course.
MDriskill,
That is one beautiful gun by any standard. Can you imagine the cost that furniture would add to a modern pistol of this type? I think what I like best,though, is the tapered barrel paired with the long swept back look of the rear sight. It’s kinda elegant !
MDriskill,
Halfstep hit the nail on the head. I admire fine woodwork and detail. Thank you for sharing. Chris
Off subject a bit.
Got my Benjamin Wildfire yesterday. A day sooner than what my tracking number said even. And didn’t even get to open it up. Had a bunch of stuff going on yesterday.
You know what I’ll be doing soon as I get home from work this afternoon. And it’s going to be a long day today. Can’t wait to try it out. But happy it’s finally here. 🙂
GF1
Glad you received your gun. Wring it out over the w/e and report back to us. My guns had some air in them when I got them so I didn’t get a count on pumps from 0 -2000 psi. If yours is empty when you get it and you use a hand pump I’d like to know what it took to fill it. (mine was 50 pumps from 1000-2000)
Halfstep
You know I’m going to wring it out. But already got a pretty good idea what it’s going to do. I had a 1077 on HPA (high pressure air). I’m pretty sure I’m going to be a happy camper. As long as it’s not a leaker. And you know what I mean.
And every Crosman or Benjamin PCP that I have ever got has had a little over 1000 psi in it when I unboxed it. So that is something I usually pay attention to when I unbox one.
And sorry no hand pumping for me. I have had a Shoebox compressor for a fair share of years now. So won’t be able to let you know how many pumps from empty. And I use to keep track of pumps per shot and all that stuff to when I got into pcp’s. But ain’t done that in forever either. I use to keep one as a back up if my Shoebox failed too or if the electric goes out. So far pretty good luck with my Shoebox. And it’s even a older one from back when they were chain driven instead of belt driven. Mine is one of the first belt driven ones. And it doesn’t even have a cooling fan.
Oh and your wrist getting any better? Got to get yourself on track for that fish’n trip and shoot’n your Wildfire. 🙂
GF1
My wrist is much better, thanks for askin’ and don’t ever feel you have to apologize for not havin to use a hand pump. I wanna be ya!!
Halfstep
Ya know you could probably pick up a used older model Shoebox fairly cheap if you look around and search one for sale. I’m sure there is people out there updating to bigger or newer compressor’s.
Good on the wrist. And let us know how your Wildfire does. And when you get your other one. 🙂
Last summer I recieved a call from another pawn shop in town. They had taken in an air pistol in pieces and wanted to know if I would take it off their hands. Got it back together with the help from a machinist friend. In fact we put it together durring working hours. I remember a little boy in the store watching Pat assemble it. That pile of parts is a good shooting model 5. Last week the urge to down size hit and I gave it to my Son in law. Left him with a big smile on his face.
When I saw the subject of today’s article it made my day! My first big-boy airgun about 30 years ago was a Marksman 70 (which I still have!) and my second was a 5G with the cast aluminum grip frame and removable grip scales. It’s still one of my favorites. It does take some technique to shoot well, but that little effort is rewarded by the sheer fun factor.
I liked the 5G so much that I bought a late ’60’s / early ’70’s version with the all-wood grip as a fix up project. It’s just about ready to go. While I was working on that I saw a chance to buy another fix-up project, a pre-war 5V. It’s about half way thru being brought back to life. Then, I saw a basket case 5G like yours with the brown grip and the price was right…so, it’s sitting on the shelf waiting it’s turn.
Somewhere along the way I also had a chance to pick up a just-revealed 6, so I have one of those as well.
Yeah, you could say I enjoy those old spring piston rifles and pistols!!
Motorman
St. Louis, MO
Motorman,
You will LOVE Monday’s blog because it’s about a BSF S70 that was the basis for the Marksman 70. In fact, the first Marksman 70s were nothing more than BSF rifles relabeled. Then they got the Rekord triggers.
B.B.
Interesting that the front sight has a c-clip instead of a bolt or some mechanism to apply tension/squeeze on the dovetail
Belgrath04
I see what you mean. There even seems to be daylight under the clip so that pin probably doesn’t even put any tension on the dovetail. Wonder why its even there?
Just looked at a Model 353 on Armslist and it HAS a bolt rather than a pin.
BB:
When I got my Marksman 70 it had the BSF trigger. However, in a conversation with the Marksman service Dept (somewhere in CA) they mentioned they could upgrade it to the Weihrauch trigger, so off it went to Cali for a new trigger. With a 4 – 12 scope on it it will put one pellet on top of another at 33′
I also acquired a.couple of the BSF pistols (also waiting for resealing a re-lube) along the way somewhere. Then there’s the HW45 and HW 70. Just can’t get enough of those old spring piston guns!
Motorman
St. Louis, MO
Strange about the front sight. My own experience is that tapered sights are good for rapid acquisition by poking them into the target but not for a precise sight picture.
Gunfun1, no toes at the abyss I’m afraid. The only airgun I’m thinking of is the Crosman 1077. I’ve also reached the practical limit of guns where I can’t even shoot them all as much as I want. I’ve learned how to appreciate guns from a distance.
Matt61
Matt61
You know I’m trying to get myself to keep certian guns. But I just like shooting different guns.
I was the same with muscle cars and rc planes.
You wouldn’t believe the stacks of pictures I got.
Lovely guns. I have a wood grip 5, a grey plastic 5, a 5G, two 6Gs and two 6Ms.
There wasn’t a “break in production” after 1978 – the 5 was replaced then with the 5G: exact same action, but an alloy lower receiver with plastic grip scales (or wooden anatomical grip as an option for the 6G and 6M).
The front sight from the 6 fits the 5. As does the front sight from the 1980s Norica model 83 pistol.
Geezer,
Good call! I rechecked the Blue Book and discovered you’re right.
I know the plastic front sights are interchangeable, but what about the target sight with inserts? The 6 barrel seems machined for that.
B.B.
Really? I’ll check. One when I have them at hand, but I’m pretty sure they interchange, at least on the later “G” models.
Well unboxed the Wildfire tonight. Just a few minutes ago actually. And like what I see so far. Reminds me of a Discovery crossbreed. Same tube diameter as my Discovery’s I had and the Maximus I have too. But with the 1077 breech I guess it’s called.
But one thing I noticed is it has Benjamin Wildfire molded into the upper breech. So it’s not just hand me down parts from the 1077. Maybe their alike but for sure a unique Wildfire breech. Otherwise everything looks like and operates like a 1077 other than filling it. On that part it’s like filling a Discovery or Maximus or Marauder.
Haven’t shot it yet. But just topped it off with my Shoebox. It has the same gauges as my Discovery’s and Maximus has. And filled to the same spot on the gauge as my Maximus with my Shoebox. In other words it’s reading the same as my Maximus. So that’s a plus too. Some sort of gauge consistency.
No shooting yet. As I always do I’ll see if it holds air for the night. Then the shooting begins tomorrow if it’s holding air. Well ok I I dry fired it a couple times after I filled it. And it does sound a little stronger than the 1077 I converted to HPA. And I don’t usually chrony these type of guns. And I’m relating “these type” of guns to Co2 guns. But I will this one just to see how fast it’s going. And will even try to do a rapid fire of so many shots then chrony and see if it slows down like a Co2 gun does after rapid firing.
I can already tell by holding it and knowing how pcp guns perform that it will be a fun gun to shoot. But that’s just speculation. Tomorrow I will be able to say for sure if the Wildfire is what I suspect it will be.
GF1
If you get a chance do a compare of the Wild Fire trigger and your 1077.(if you still have it) My Wild Fire is harder and rougher than my three 1077s. Have swapped mags around and it seems to be more of a function of the trigger group. Maybe stronger hammer spring?
Halfstep,
Unless I got it wrong, a stiffer hammer spring would just make the trigger “harder and rougher”.
Chris U
And I think Halfstep means that maybe the Wildfire has a heavier hammer spring than the 1077. Not put in a heavier hammer spring.
GF1,
So it would appear. My mistake.
Halfstep,
If I was to try and do anything it would be see if I could add an either tension or compression spring “somewhere” in the linkage to “assist” the trigger. Kind of like applying something that would incorporate a “built in” assist that would make up 8# of the 12# pull. That would leave you with only 4# of pull. I do not know without having one apart. If anything could be done, GF1 would figure it out.
Chris U
The Wildfire and 1077 are a little more complicated to take apart then the Marauder’s and Maximus and so on that use the tube and breech on top design. The Wildfire and 1077 is I guess what I call a break open design. Lot of peices to keep in the right places when you put them back together. And not loose when you take apart.
I already thought about what would happen on this PCP model of the Wildfire if it needed to come apart. Like for o-ring replacement and such. Or modification. 😉
But you know what I think would take care of the trigger to some degree. First note how it feels as of now. Then let my daughter’s shoot the heck out of it every day for about a week. Then tell them while their not shooting it they have to take turns dry firing it as fast as they can while their doing the computers and while their eating. They can only take a break from it when they sleep.Then after that weeks over I’ll fire it a few times and see if the trigger feels better.
Oh and of course that’s with a empty clip and magazine in the gun. And with air in it.
Oh heck I’m just going to shoot it and let it break in. 🙂
On the serious side though the quickest easiest way to lighten the trigger pull up some would be lighten the springs in the magazine. That’s the way I would go if I felt I needed it lighter.
And you know what I bet the trigger on your pistol that takes a rotary clip feels pretty close to the same as a Wildfire and 1077 trigger. You need to get you a Wildfire and let us know. Heck you got that gauge to measure trigger pull even.
Well you going to get a Wildfire? 🙂
GF1,
Will I get one? Well, never say never. I do not have any need for a .177 though. I would probably fork out the coin for a repeating breech for the Maximus first.
Chris U
Different kind of shooting your talking about with a repeating breech. You still got to pull the bolt everytime before you pull the trigger to shoot. Your talking about having a shot ready to load if needed.
The Wildfire the shot is ready to be fired everyone you pull the trigger. A semi auto type shooting is for fast shooting at random targets. Kind of like having a AR in your hand and rounding a corner in a combat situation in a home or such. No time to cock the bolt. You would probably be dead befoee you got a next chance to cock the bolt.
And back to the Wildfire. It’s basically a cheap way to do fast action plinking. And come to think about it. Practice scenerios like I just mentioned with the AR.
A reapting gun that needs the bolt cocked wouldn’t stand a chance to a semi auto action. Well I probably shouldn’t say that cause there has to be a few of those special people out there that could give a semi auto a run for its money with a bolt action gun. But I bet not many of those people are out there.
Just trying to get you to see the difference in the two types of actions we are talking about. And yes I know the Wildfire is not a true semi automatic. But pretty darn close in my book.
GF1,
Yup,.. they are different. The repeating breech for the Maximus would make it into a mini M-rod. Better accuracy and longer range with more hitting power (.22).
I do admit, it would be fun. So would a lot of things.
Chris U
How would the repeating breech make it more accurate?
GF1,
It would not. It would make for a quicker follow up shot. You never know,.. get yours to doing 1/2″ at 50 yds. and the trigger down to around 1# and I will think about it. How is that? 😉
Chris U
Would make for a quicker follow up shot no doubt with the Maximus. But still not as fast as the Wildfire.
And the Wildfire won’t ever have a 1 pound trigger unless it broke.
And ok you got to show me a 1/2″ 10 shot group on your Maximus at 50 yards first. Heck even a 5 shot group. 😉
GF1,
On taking stuff apart,…. the Beretta 92FS busted my “chops” really hard. Going forward after that,. I have no fear! 🙂
Chris U
Looking at the 1077 parts diagram I’m going to have to say the Wildfire and 1077 is a gun then needs paying attention to when taking it apart and back together for the first time.
But then again sometimes the parts diagram makes things look worse than it actually is.
And yes I had no fear stickers on my dirt bikes and drag cars and yes even my RC planes.
Sometimes it’s just got to be that way. 🙂
Oh and guess who I heard from today. Reb. Sounds like he had some situations go on. But he’s surviving. Still got his hi-pac 2240 conversion gun though.
GunFun1,
Good to hear about Reb. Any news on Bulldog?
Siraniko
Siraniko
Yep Reb just jumped right in a started talking air guns. So you know how long we talked.
And Buldawg. I talk to him pretty much every day. And you know him. He’s always got something air gun related going on.
GF1,
That is great that you heard from Reb. Glad he is still kickin’. He always seemed to know a lot about the Co2 and multi-pumpers. Yea,.. he was always into adventure’s of one kind or another. Here’s to hoping he stays well.
Chris,
Probably won’t do any modding till after warranty expires. Drilling out the hammer( it’s quite large if it’s like the 1077 hammer) and filling it with lead , may allow using lighter hammer spring. There is also a separate trigger return spring to deal with.
Halfstep
Don’t have my 1077 anymore. But the trigger feels pretty much the same. I had about 3 different 1077’s through time and they all started out a little on the heavy side and not much feel of when the trigger would break for the shot. As they got more use the trigger would lighten up. And I could start feeling the breaking point of the trigger better also.
But again I only dry fired it a couple times. Once with the mag and clip in the gun and with the mag completely out. Probably not enough to get a real good idea yet about the trigger.
And getting ready in a bit to go see if it held air. Then going to shoot it for a while and see what it’s about. Then will chrony it later today.
I can say this that I hope it performs like that 1077 I converted to HPA. Used a 88 gram Co2 cartridge adapter and cartridge and put a Foster male fitting in the 88 gram cartridge. I don’t know what that cartridge figures out to be volume wise. But I was getting 36 good shots before POI (point of impact) started dropping off. It would do 48 shots though. And that was around a little over a 1200 psi fill down to about 800 psi. But with no slow down in velocity if I rapid fired like the gun did with Co2. In other words the shots stayed pretty consistent even rapid firing on HPA.
So that’s one of the things I want to see with the Wildfire when I get it rock’n and roll’n today. And mentioned this before. Going to shoot it open sights. I want the quick acquisition for rapid shots in different locations. Had a couple FX Monsoons. One was a real good one. The other had valve problems. But if the Wildfire is as much fun as the good FX Monsoon was then I’m going to be a very happy person. And just think of all the Wildfires I could buy for the price of a Monsoon. 🙂
GF1
You’re right about the spring. I just wondered if it was too heavy already in order to open the valve against higher compressed air pressure. My 1077s are fairly new and I haven’t really noticed them getting lighter or smoother with use, (have done most of my shooting with a certain one so, I guess it would be the most broken in) all three just started out nicer. I’ve had all three apart to install an oring and stronger spring to the detent, (I think that’s what the movable transfer port that presses against the magazine is called) and it is tricky to take apart but there are some good videos on youtube that help. That is a very worthwhile mod , by the way. You will probably feel air escaping through the slot for the barrel lock each time you fire the Wild Fire. That’s the air that leaks at the detent. I’m gonna mod mine after the warranty is up in order to get higher velocity and better shot count. Worked for the 1077s. Glad to hear your converted 1077 maintained consistent velocity in rapid fire. Main reason I bought the Wildfire. That and winter use outdoors.
Halfstep
I may have to do that mod to my Wildfire later on. Thanks for telling about it. And that would be a good time to look at the trigger mechanism and spring to if I take it apart.
And yep same with me with the Wildfire. Shooting in the cold and rapid fire with out worrying about the Co2 slowing the gun down.
But heading out to shoot now. So will give a update later.
GF1
Here’s the link ,http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBhYc3NQXeE
Off to Georgia, later!
Halfstep
You didn’t get all the link copied. It will turn up blue if it’s copied correct when you post.
I’ll see if I can search it later. But going back out to shoot now.
Stopping for lunch so here’s a update on my Wildfire so far.
First off it is louder than my 1077 was on Co2 or with the HPA conversion I did. But definitely not as loud as my Maximus. And yes the trigger is harder to pull. I have to keep hold of the gun pretty good to keep it from moving on my bench rest bag.
About the trigger pull. I do believe they used a heavier striker/hammer spring. Because if I take the magazine out of the gun and push and pull the lever on the magazine that cycles the clip. It has a very light spring in it compared to what my 1077 magazine had. So I believe they did increase the striker spring and lightened the one in the magazine. I guess we’ll know that if the give replacement mags for the Wildfire a different part number. And otherwise I’m sure the gun would get valve lock at the 2000 psi fill if they kept the 1077 striker spring.
And about valve lock. I did try the gun to 2300 psi and about the first 4 shots were quieter than it has been at the 2000 psi fill and poi was a little lower. So I believe the gun is starting to get partial valve lock at the 2300 psi fill. So the full fill of 2000 psi is what I went with when I started shooting.
And then that brings me to this. The gun is making 36 consistent shots poi wise. I could get one more clip out of the gun buy the last 5 shots of that clip fell off on poi pretty good. And the gun was down on 1000 psi. And as far as shooting goes I tryed the open sights and a target at 35 yards and my eyes just ain’t wanting to do it today. So I put my trusty Tasco red dot on it I have had for years. And started sighting it in.
So far tryed JSB 8.4, 10.34, Air Arms 10.34 and Crosman 8 grain premiers in a tin. Not the ones in a box. The JSB 8.4 and 10.34 and Air Arms 10.34 shoot equally the same. And luckily it’s nice and calm out today. I made a red circle on my white target paper using my red dot lens cover and tracing around it with a red marker. It’s 1-3/4″ diameter. All shots taken after I sighted in the dot sight were well with in the circle at 35 yards. Probably about a 1-1/8″ group.
I still want to chrony the gun today. But can tell pretty well by the sound and shot placement that the gun isn’t slowing up rapid firing. I did at least one clip of 12 shots rapid firing on each gun fill and each pellet at the target. And each target was a total of 36 shots.So I say that’s a pretty good example of what the gun does at 35 yards. Definitely alot more shots to fall in that target circle than the usual 10 shot groups.
So far I’m satisfied and is pretty much what I exspected it to be. Oh and forgot no leaks over night. Which is good. Because my plan is to have the gun loaded and safety on ready to pick up and shoot if I have a pest show up. Yes black birds and mice. No nothing bigger. But that’s another reason I wanted it. The clips aren’t like a Marauder spring loaded rotary clip so don’t have to worry about the spring fatigue while left loaded up. And likewise with a spring gun. The Wildfire will always be ready for action.
And that’s what’s next. The other reason I got it. Fast action shooting at targets placed in different spots. Basically pull the trigger as fast as I can while moving from one target to the next and see how many hits I get.
But time to go shoot again. Th-th-that’s all folks 🙂
One more quick one.
Sighted the Wildfire to the high on the circle target at 35 yards. I can now get 48 shots per fill. The gun starts out at the top of the circle and ends at the mid to low of the 1-3/4″ circle. Did some plinking at some feral cans after that sight in. All I can say is poor, poor feral cans. They didn’t stand a chance with the Wildfire. 🙂
And forgot. Tryed the Daisy wadcutters I have. It’s not liking them out at 35 yards. But was doing good at 20 yards and in. Around 1-1/4″ and under. Should make a nice mouse gun in close with the wadcutters.
And no chrony yet. Having to much darn fun shooting it to stop. Oh and plan for alot of pumping air one way or another with the Wildfire. You can burn through 48 shots pretty darn fast with it.
Oh and my Shoebox will refill the Wildfire faster than I can refill 3 clips with pellets. Let alone 4 clips. So my down time shooting is from me. Not from the gun being filled.
GF1,
🙂 on the above, above,… and out of room. Next pellet order I will be looking over my options on a another addition to the “family”. I still need to play with the Maximus more. The JSB 15.89’s are the only thing I have tried thus far. I did do the 2100 fill with no issues. 2200 next. No chrony test to verify though.
Chris U
Well I know you already know what I’m going to say.
The paper is what counts. 🙂
GF1,
Yup,…. you have taught the “Grass Hopper” well. Or Jedi,.. or?,… heck,.. I am not even sure anymore. In my feeble defense, I did get it just before the cold set in for the Fall/Winter. 1-11-17 to be exact. I am taking your advice and trying some other pellets when it warms back up. I have a bunch of .22’s to try. Use them up if nothing else.
Chris U
Yep with all that Jedi grasshopper stuff.
And it’s seeming to me the Maximus is one of them guns that just likes to shoot well. I don’t have any other .22 caliber pellets to try. But maybe it will like other pellets.
I’m still wondering if it’s that new barrel process or what. Soon as they come up with a parts diagram I’m sure going to order one and try it on one of my 1322/77 rifle conversions.
You will have to let us know when you try some other pellets in your Maximus. Curious to see what other pellets do.
Chris U,
Between Grasshopper and Jedi is Padawan.
Siraniko
Chrony update on the Wildfire.
Well I got a 80 fps spread from shot 1 to shot 48. It’s a progressive drop in air the whole shot string. And both the JSB and Air Arms 10.34’s went high of 730 to 650. The JSB 8.4’s went 770 to 690. And those numbers are basically are rounded up or down within a few fps of what they actually were. And I did shoot a couple shots with the Maximus and Synrod to see where they were at. They were both off about 50 fps. So the Wildfire could shoot anther 50 fps faster than what it’s getting right now. Will have to randomly chrony it here and there to see if it picks up along with the Maximus and Synrod just to see what they chrony at also.
One thing I did notice with the Wildfire when I had it setting next to my Maximus. Is it has the same diameter resivoir tube as the Maximus or Discovery. But the length of the tube is much shorter on the Wildfire from where the valve is to the fill fitting. Don’t now how much less volume wise. But the Wildfire definitely has less volume of air supply. So that’s got a bit to do with fps falling off more rapidly I’m sure.
But overall satisfied with how my Wildfire is performing. And again the cost compared to other types of PCP guns that are in this type of “semi-auto” shooting makes the Wildfire a big bang for the buck as they say. 🙂
GF1,
All sounds good. B.B.’s part 2 showed 126 fps spread over 36 shots and ended at 1100 psi, so yours is doing a bit better. His showed a steady drop just as yours. Have you checked to see were the drop off starts on POI?
Chris U
Yes I did yesterday. You must of overlooked it above.
I have it sighted with my red dot sight at 35 yards. I drew a 1-3/4″ circle with my red marker on white paper.
The gun is sighted to the high 12:00 position on full fill. The shots move to the center of the target as I shoot. I can go to shot 48 now which is 4 clips and I’m still in the circle towards the 6:00 position.
So basically 48 shots will stay inside the 1-3/4″ circle at 35 yards. Mind you though it was a beautiful dead calm day yesterday which I was thankful for. Great for sighting in and testing a new gun. Not so lucky today. Got a 8 mph head wind and slightly from the right. The group’s of 48 are more tear drop shaped with the wind. But the JSB and Air Arms 10.34’s are definitely bucking the wind better than the JSB 8.4’s. Definitely more of a bigger scattered group with the 8.4’s and wind today.
All in all I still think it’s a good gun for what it is. Definitely performs better than my 1077’s I had on Co2.
GF1,
Now that you mention it, I do recall. That is nice for a light “pester”. Just adjust the sight picture for 35 yards and less so for closer in. Like you said,… a nice shooter to have “at the ready”. Just keep track somewhat on where you are at in regards to the 48 string. Glad it worked out for you.
Chris U
That’s easy to find out where I’m at in the 48 shot count. Just look at the gauge on the gun and section the gauge in 4 places.
A 2000 fill down to now my established low fill of 1000 psi is easy to break down in 4 places of fill pressure. Since I’m using 4 clips now.
And with a overall drop of less than 1-3/4″ over the 48 shots. I should just be able to aim center mass or shoulder height on a starling that’s standing straight up and hit at any psi level in that 48 shots.
It’s nothing new I’m doing. If you have enough Co2 guns you learn about that real quick. It’s just a little more easy to do with a PCP gun. They don’t usually have the progressive drop off like Co2 guns do.
It’s all about staying in a given kill zone and knowing how your gun performs.
GF1
Almost missed all your helpful reporting on the Wildfire. Didn’t see anything in the comments that were posted on the blogs I missed while fishing and just now thought to look at past threads.( This Blog Commenting is quite new to me so I’m still on the uphill side of the learning curve.) Good to hear that rapid fire is better than on the 1077. 48 shots is good but I’m betting that the detent mod that I tried to post will give approx. 24 more shots ( and slightly higher velocity) based on my mods on all 3 of my 1077s. ( Do you feel air blasting out of the barrel pellet jam release slot thingy on each shot ? )I can try to post it again if you can’t find it. I can sort of confirm your striker (it is hammer shaped on the 1077)spring theory as I have 10 (12 counting the Wildfire mags) mags and they seem the same, but the Wildfire trigger is definitely harder and a little crunchier, if that is a real air gunning term 🙂 on the Wildfire, mag or no mag. Went to a hand and wrist Doc today and was diagnosed with arthritis in my right wrist and “trigger finger ” in two fingers on each hand, so I can’t use my hand pump until the cortisone shots have a chance to work their magic. ( I’m not makin’ this up, “trigger finger” is keeping me from shooting 🙂 ) so it will be a few days( if I ignore the yard work that didn’t get done while I was gone,longer If I behave as a “responsible adult” ) before I get a chance to shoot mine more, so I’m living vicariously through you.Post any impressions you have. (Have you seen any owner comments other than ours? I thought there would be more buyers.)
Halfstep
I remember you talking about the mod. As far as the air blowing by I know my 1077’s I have had did that. And ya know I never did check my Wildfire yet. But I’m betting it does. If so I will probably do your mod.
And yes from shooting the Wildfire more I can tell the striker spring is definitely heavier. And I’m really wondering if it needs to be that heavy to get the velocity it shoots at. I have cut coils on spring guns and cut as much as 4 inches off and the gun still shot the same velocity. And likewise did the same sort of with some of the 2240’s,1377/22’s and Discovery’s I had. Just not 4 inches. Maybe just a couple coils. But I found over compressing the spring does nothing. Well actually knew that From the race engine’s I built for muscle cars in the past. And matter of fact it usually hurts more than it helps.
And bummer on the arthritis. I have it pretty much always now too. I have been lucky it isn’t my trigger finger. But for some reason my finger next to the pinky finger or what ever you call it doesn’t want to work at all anymore. It aches like I don’t know what and trys to lock closed up.
And really the only thing I can say about missing a post is read the blog all the time. You never know what conversations will come up. 🙂
GF1
The odd thing is my actual trigger finger is fine, but the condition that affects 2 of my other fingers on each hand is called “trigger finger”. The fingers lock up in a curled position the release in stages ( like a trigger and sear). It gets inflamed and the palm of the hand gets too sore to use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBhYc3NQXeE&t=301s here is that youtube video again, if I copied it right this time.
Halfstep
Thanks for the link. And that is pretty much what my finger does.