by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Daisy Red Ryder.
This report covers:
- Installs quickly and easily
- Base slants downward
- Scope or dot sight?
- Not a Red Ryder test
- The test
- Daisy Premium Grade BBs
- Hornady Black Diamond BBs
- Air Venturi steel BBs
- Observations
Okay, I am shifting gears on this report. The first 3 reports were about my vintage Red Ryder — a Daisy model 111-40. But it wouldn’t accept the Brice scope base that I wanted to test for you. So Bill Brice sent me a new Daisy Red Ryder to test his base for you.
Pyramyd AIR will be stocking this mount, so if you like what you see, you should be able to order one soon.
Installs quickly and easily
The scope base goes on the gun very quickly. Remove the rear sight elevator and then lift the sight and slip the mount base underneath. Use the wood screw that’s on the gun to attach the rear of the base.
Base slants downward
The base slants downward, back to front, giving you a natural lift to the impact of the shot. That’s useful with a BB gun, because of the low velocity.
Scope or dot sight?
With this base you are free to choose any type of optical sight to install. No doubt many will chose a scope, but because I have some experience with scoped BB guns and know that the sight won’t make the gun any more accurate, I chose a high-end dot sight. Dot sights are used to 50 yards with success. I’m using one on the Dragon Claw that launches the Air Venturi Air Bolt, and the accuracy has already produced a Robin Hood (arrow striking the back of another arrow). That’s good enough for me!
Not a Red Ryder test
This is a test of the Brice (know called LASSO) scope base, not the new Red Ryder. I see a lot of differences in this new BB gun that I will report after the scope base has been tested, but for today and perhaps one more report I just want to concentrate on the scope base.
The rear sight elevator must be removed.
The elevator is gone so the front screw of the scope base can be inserted into the slot.
Base slants downward
The base slants downward, bach to front, giving you a natural lift to the impact of the shot. That’s useful with a BB gun, because of the low velocity.
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The Brice mount is installed and you can see the steep slope.
The dot sight is installed.
The test
I shot the BB gun at 5 meters, using the UTG Monopod rest to steady it. This is as steady as shooting from a rest of any kind.
Daisy Premium Grade BBs
First to be tested were 10 Daisy Premium Grade BBs. The first shot went over the backstop andf hit the backer board I put there to protect the wall. The downward slope of the scope base is extreme! I might have to modify it for a future test.
The first group landed very much higher than the aim point, despite my cranking the sight down by 40+ clicks. The BBs were also landing to the right of the aim point. Ten Daisy BBs went into 1.63-inches at 5 meters. In my experience, that’s about par for a Red Ryder. But it was still shooting too high so I cranked it down about 40 more clicks. It was now nearly bottomed out.
Ten Daisy BBs went into 1.63-inches at 5 meters. They appear to have hit to the left, but actually hit far to the right.
Hornady Black Diamond BBs
Next up were 10 Hornady Black Diamond BB. They made a 1.867-inch groiup at 5 meters. It was still high and now a bit too far to the left, as I had over-adjusted the dot sight. I cranked in a few more down clicks and ran out of adjustment. But I was able to bring the impact back to the right.
Ten Hornady Black Diamond BBs went into 1.867-inches at 5 meters. The gun is still shooting too high.
Air Venturi steel BBs
The last BB I tried was the Air Venturi steel BB. Ten of them went into a wide 2.541-inch group that was still over an inch above the aim point. Clearly the slope of the Brice mount needs to be reduced. And just as clearly, this is not the right BB for this gun.
Ten Air Venturi steel BBs went into 2.541-inches at 5 meters. The dot sight is adjusted as low as it will go and the gun still shoots too high.
Observations
The Brice mount is quick and easy to install and it works exactly as intended. If you want to mount a scope or dot sight on a Red Ryder, or on the Marlin BB gun Crosman used to sell, this is the mount to use.
The slope of the base is way too steep. I think I will cut the rear spacer in half to get the gun hitting at the aim point.
I think next time I test this base I will try mounting a scope, just to experience that. I’ll also try some different BBs, though lead BBs are out because the Red Ryder relies on a magnet in the feed mechanism.
When I finish testing the Brice mount I will do a velocity test and accuracy test with the open sights with this Red Ryder — just to complete the circle. I find that a optical sight is fun on a BB gun, although I do not recommend using one to teach people to shoot. Shooters should always learn to use open sights first, because they are the hardest to learn. When they understand how to shoot a gun, then they can graduate to optics.
BB,
That is definitely too much anti-droop for 5 meters. Maybe they were expecting you to extend the range to 10 meters?
Siraniko,
You might be right. Bill Brice does mention shooting at up at 50 feet in te literature.
B.B.
B.B.,
Couldn’t find any literature online but YouTube did yield a nugget. The 5 mm washer in the rear can be swapped out with another washer of varying thickness to bring the scope on target in the presenter’s case he only needed 3.25 mm to get his scope on the target.
And yes somebody claimed hitting small cans at 50 yards using this combination.
Siraniko
I have a question regarding my Benjamin HPA pump. Over the past couple months the thing appears to be retaining air pressure and leaving the shaft exposed. How can I correct this problem before it gets the grease barrier compromised?
Reb,
That sounds as if the barrier has already been compromised and a small speck of dirt has gotten into the pump which is not allowing it to close fully because something is obstructing the free passage of air from one stage to the next.
That is just my opinion.
Siraniko
BB,
LOL! That is a bit much scope for the Red Ryder. Now a red dot on something like a 99 or a 499 might work pretty good, though I would not do such to mine personally. Perhaps the Brice mount would work on a 25?
B.B.,
I see that while the Daisy/Avanti 499 and Daisy Model 25 have places to mount the rear of the Brice Scope Base, but like the 111-40, there is no forward hole for the mount. Does Bill Brice have plans to add a model that could be mounted on those? My limited imagination can’t come up with a way, but he probably could. I would love to get scope mounts for both my Model 499 and (newer version) Model 25.
I agree with Chris regarding reducing the downward slope through the use of washers in the front. I always get an uneasy feeling when the subject of irreversible modifications comes up.
Michael
Michael,
Sorry, but you sent this to me.
RR,
Oops. Thanks for the heads-up.
Michael
My suggestion would be a plastic ring added to the front of the mount to clamp around the whole shot tube
Reb,
That sounds like an excellent idea. Hmmm. Maybe I need to go into the garage and dig around for a hose clamp!
Michael
BB,
I was perusing the BB selection at PA just now and noticed that these ASG Blaster BBs are heavier.
/product/asg-blaster-steel-bbs-177-cal-5-4-grains-speedloader-bottle-1500ct?p=1200
Perhaps they are slightly larger in diameter? Have you tested these before?
RR,
I have tested them in several tests. Don’t know if I’ve reviewed them specifically.
B.B.
BB,
If you have some laying around somewhere handy, would you please measure a few for me?
Talking about past test.
In December 2015 you started a test of the FWB. Model 2.
The pistol you had has issues.
You were going to send it to have it worked on.
Do you have any intentions of revisiting that gun to finish the series?
The reason I ask, I am in the market for one, and remember you reviewed it, and searched and found the 2 parts.
Thanks.
Ian
Ian,
I fixed the problem and reported on it in Part 3.
/blog/2015/12/feinwerkbau-model-2-target-pistol-part-3/
B.B.
I bought some AGB Blasters as they are listed as heavier. Not so.
Weighed batches of 10 BBs. The largest dia, and heaviest steel BBs are Daisy Match Grade Avanti
Weighed on my RCBS Model 5-0-2 Reloading Scale
Blaster – 5.3 grains, diameter 0.1715 – 0.172
Avanti – 5.4 grains, diameter 0.173 – 0.174
and, jjust for fun, the lead H&N BBs –
7.63 grain 0.1710 – 0.1715
JCKelly,
Thanks! If they had been larger I would have bought some to try in my Daisy 99. I guess I will be going with the Avantis.
Nice product. That slope is insane. You mentioned cutting the rear spacer in half. I am assuming that you did (not) mean that you were literally going to cut it. Washers would work. Factory spacers of various thickness’s seem to be in order. Perhaps screws of varying length as well. At some point, the longer screw would bottom out.
I am not sure of the price point, (on the site). I suppose though that anyone that has a tuff time with open sights (read me) that this would be welcome addition. The accuracy surprised me a bit. At 24′, the 1 5/8″ seemed to be more on par with my experience of my 75th Anniv. Red Ryder.
Overall, nice,… I like it.
This mount could be fun with a laser
Or
Even just use the rail to attach an open rear sight with elevation and windage adjustments.
I’d be interested in seeing it at 50ft. Maybe they should offer different size spacers.
Is this something that would fit on a 499?
Kookla,
I have both rifles. The 499 has a screw in the same spot for the rear mount,… so I will say that the rear would work. The front area on the 499 has nothing up front. So on the front screw, I would say no.
Really though, on the 499, the peep sight is great. Plus, at 41 feet, the bb will drop 3″. 8 of 10 bb’s went into 7/8″ at 41′. Plus, the 499 is 250 fps where as the Red Ryder is a 350 fps gun.
Chris- thanks:) Forgot about the lower velocity there. I enjoy using the peep on my 499, but thought a scope would be interesting too.
Kookla,
After seeing the mount, I am not so sure that I could not make one. With a Red Ryder spraying bb’s at 2″ in 5-10 yards, I am not sure what the point would be. I did try the 499 at 32 yards outside the other day on a tin can. That did not work. I left the peep alone, so it was just a wild guess on hold over. It is set for 24′ now and will drop bb’s in one small hole (1/2″ ish) all day long. Oh, that 3″ above was with the sights set for 24′. The POI was 3″ lower than the POA. It may not be that if the sights were set different.
But yea,…. it would still be cool and look cool too.
I THINK I beat you to the Brice-mount BB. I found it via the DaisyMuseum.com: rec’d & installed it on 7/27. SOON found that I HAD to grind a bit off the rear mount shim to get it safely aligned to the gun barrel (I ALMOST said “rifle”!). I was also unhappy with the 6.8lb trigger pull, and yes, it is a rivoted assembly that I did not want to tackle. I found that I could sort of jam the sear surfaces open & use a q-tip loaded with mild abrasive paste to smooth the sear, then clean the heck out of it to remove ALL paste/abrasives. Per others suggestions, I also removed the exposed, rear trigger spring, and found the unit still reliable. AFTER all this, the trigger now is at 4.9 lbs: higher than I prefer, but still safe for the kids to use.
I also LIGHTLY cleaned to bore on receipt… After a few MORE settle-in shots (gun now has ~550 shots thorough it) & the decreased trigger pull & the scope on (old 3×9!), I now easily shoot 50-ft FIVE-groups { too lazy to do TENS! 🙂 } of 4.0 inches, and two GOOD groups of 2.8″ & 2.2″ (all using Crosman Copperhead BBs, un-sorted). I think that’s all I can get out of this gun: Happy with it now! 🙂
Trigger Idea,…
Anyone that has been here long knows that I will try most anything. So,….. I got to thinking of those target pistols that have those trigger “shoes” that stick out from the trigger (or) a trigger post. Also, the single screw head that BB has on his Hammerli 100 Free Pistol trigger. Could I do that on a M-rod trigger? Or something close? No, not easily.
What I did come up with a plastic/vinyl bolt cap that snuggly fits the trigger blade. That alone felt better. But what about the “single point” trigger feel I was after? Enter the common bb. Place the bb in the bottom of the cap, push the cap onto the trigger. When bottomed out, work the bb to the front of the trigger blade. Finish pushing the cap on and,…. done.
What it does is give a single, fine point for trigger finger tip placement. Does it work? Is it better? Am I more accurate? The “jury” is still out,… but it seems to.
Anyways,… just tossing it out there for anyone else that likes to “play” and experiment. 100% reversible and somewhat adjustable.
Ants, Bugs, Bees and Skeeters,….
A few tips that work. Bug spray on ground and shooting stand legs. The 6 month kind.
DEET,…. I saw on the news where the higher the % does NOT mean it works better. It means that it will last (longer).
98.11% DEET at Wally’s for 5$. Spray/spritz on saw horse leg tops, 3 sprays at/on the front of the table and some on a lid. The lid I sit under or near the gun. (None on me!)
A fan works too. Keeps me cool and disrupts the smaller bug’s flying patterns.
Hope some of that helps. Nothing worse than “getting in the zone” or hitting that perfect 10 hole target and you and your gun turn into “Bug Central”.
Chris
To take the itch out of a mosquito bite, get a tea spoon in water/tea till it’s almost too hot to hold. Apply directly to the bite an hold for few seconds. Allegedly this heats an destroys the enzymes in the bite an stops the itching! It seems to work on me an the family.
Rick.
This is scraping the bottom of the budget barrel in terms of scopes. It reminds me of one of my most unfortunate purchases which was a $20 airsoft M4 with select-fire capability. (But the shipping cost $30.) The cool-looking red dot which may have been the first of its kind that I used would not adjust and diverged significantly from point of impact at 7 yards. The full-auto function could certainly thrash the bushes, but it got old in a hurry. It sounded just like a typewriter. After brief use, it has gathered dust for many years and probably does not even work anymore. But oddly enough, my brother just reported his experience with a machine gun. He doesn’t care for guns because of the noise and danger, but he is very determined about his bucket list. As a result, he has fired handguns and recently, he fired off a 30 round magazine from an AR with full-auto. Surprisingly, he said it was very thrilling. Maybe someday, I’ll try the MP-5 that B.B. recommended to me.
Titus Groan, I’m looking forward to your info about the longbow archers, especially the part about scoliosis. That I can readily imagine from the forces that a powerful bow puts on the body. Between that and the gigantic and deformed left arms of English archers, I’m going to be especially cautious. I may have to rethink this 120 lb. bow.
ChrisUSA, thank you for the kind comments. No, I don’t draft or research what I write here. They are just things that I’ve found interesting over the years waiting for the right moment, and the blog is very invigorating to me. But I’ve had plenty of practice. I was trained to be an English professor. But when it came time to get a job, I found that a lot of what that profession is focused on was just not interesting to me–even kind of dumb. But when I tried to question some of their assumptions, they got very hostile. It was a case of me to the North and you to the South. But in any case, I read and write all day as I’ve done pretty much for my whole life. I suppose it is like B.B.’s departed friend Mac who has been shooting since he was a little kid. Clint Fowler, my M1 gunsmith noticed this training effect when I had trouble operating the safety on my rifle. He recalled that I had a university style email address, so he concluded that I had weak hands unaccustomed to work. I was holding back a little bit from the belief that you shouldn’t force things, but Clint was right about the safety. Finally, the value one places on information is a matter of perspective. A guy in college told me that I was a fount of useless information. 🙂
Anyway, I can tell you more about one of the tests required to achieve the highest rank in the Russian society of pain. It involved having cold water trickled onto one’s head. I can imagine a lot worse, but maybe they had special refinements. Their other tests were no joke. And lest we think we are so different, in 1795 a secret society was found at some American army outpost where members endured 100 lashes for a pint of whiskey. Well, they say boredom was a real problem at those frontier forts…
Matt61
Matt61,
Very impressive. Your ability to retain and put forth such detailed information “at will” is amazing. My brain must have taken a left turn somewhere in the last 50+ years. 🙁 ,…… 😉
100 lashes huh? Boredom,…. huh? My, my,….. I need a “sip” after reading that!
Chris
bb
are you going to get to the daisy 853 trigger any time soon?
I just got a used refurb 853 from the CMP and I love it. nice to have a rifle that can out shoot my abilities LOL. with a 4x scope and using Meisterkugeln 8.2gr pellets it can group single hole at 7 yards on my indoor range 😉 I however can only do that for a few shots, I’ve found it fun to make multiple dots on a sheet of paper and try to shoot them out with one shot.
so I really shouldn’t complain, but, the trigger is not only creepy, it is creaky. If i pull it slowly I can hear it making creaking noises, LOL
6.5,
Welcome to the blog.
That rifle is so hard to work on that I’m letting a lot of time pass before I tear it apart again.
B.B.
Everyone,
I’m at the Pyramyd AIR Cup and have very little time to look at the blog. Will the veteran readers please help me with the new commentors, and pleas hold your real questions until Monday?
Thanks,
B.B.
The talk of insects brings to my mind the BugAssault rifle which shoots common table salt at flies and mosquitoes. And other insects. Slower than bug spray but I imagine satisfying. They get rave reviews on Amazon and such. Would love to see PA stock these NaCl shooters!
To all with digital scales,
Just how consistent is the JSB Match Diabolo Exact Jumbo Heavy .22 Cal Domed 18.13 Grains to the claimed weight? I had bought a digital scale (unfortunately the only one available in the market to me, more accurate scales may be available but they are out of my price range) and it did not have a calibrated weight. Is the pellet that consistent that I can use the JSB Match Diabolo Exact Jumbo Heavy .22 Cal Domed as my calibration weight?
Siraniko,
I saw your comment earlier and searched for some data. Did not find. I will weigh some up for you in a bit and post back. I swore I had data. I can tell you now though that my scale goes to 1 place 18.(1). From past experience, I can get 12 places,….. 17.5 ~ 18.7 with the majority coming in on target +/- .2
Shooting now,….. back later,….. Chris
Siraniko,
18.13 JSB, 30 pellets:
5@ 17.9
11@ 18.0
7@ 18.1
5@ 18.2
2@ 18.3
A few other things,….. let it “warm up” for 5 minutes. Keep it away from drafts and vibration. Use a “tray” of sorts. This will keep the oils from the pellet and your hands off of the main platform. Tweezers are good. Open on the squeeze tweezers are best. A bottle cap will work for a tray, just tare it out.
Hope that helps,….. Chris
Chris USA,
Thanks for the data. Seems like the JSB pellets can be trusted for the most part. 😎
A “tray” huh? Can’t see why I should not use one. I’ll give it a try. Maybe one from a sports drink that should give me a bigger surface area to work with. Which way would work better, lid up or lid down? Something to do during our rainy season or when I have some downtime from work.
Thanks again. This should help a lot especially when I am computing for FPE. I would like to tune my CO2 and PCPs to 12 FPE and 20 FPE respectively.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
The sports drink cap should work fine. I see I neglected to address your calibration question. I guess the first thing is knowing the procedure for you particular scale. You should be able to find that out. The second thing would be to know what weight is used. Mine uses a 50 gram. Once you press the buttons, (it only has 3), then you place the weight on and it is a “pass” or “fail” reading. So for me to use some other weight would result in a “fail”. Once you know what weight you need,.. you could make your own calibration weight with a small bottle and some pellets for adjusting the weight to the specified amount.
Mine is a MTM Case Guard DS-750 and cost 35$. I tried a cheaper (25$) model first and all I kept getting was pellets that all weighed the same,…. which I knew better. Post your model # and other info. and maybe someone could help you more.
In my quest for accuracy, I have decided to order a .25 Pelletgage. That, along with weighing, should do the trick. The key though, for anyone, is being able to be steady enough and shoot well enough that you will actually see the difference. From my research here and abroad, I think it is well established that the head size is the most critical. Weighing is just a good 2nd back up. And, while calipers in skilled hands can be ok,… it not the same as the pelletgage.
In fact, with all the weighing I have done,… I have seen (slight) overall improvement. Yet,… I still have unexplained fliers. That is what I am seeking to eliminate.
Good luck with your endeavor,……. Chris
Chris USA,
Unfortunately all I have is a cheap digital weighing scale made for measuring jewelry. My main aim anyway in using the weighing scale is to discover how consistent the manufacture of our local pellets here are anyway.Which I am very surprised to be very consistent during the initial production and expect as time goes by the quality starts going down.
Here is a sample out of random boxed sample containing 102 pellets that were newly introduced into the market.
Weighed using electronic weighing scale set in grains to the tenth results as follows.
92 (90%) pellets weighed 17.4 grains
5 (5%) pellets weighed 17.2 grains
5 (5%) pellets weighed 17.0 grains
I may possibly get a sample of these pellets after a year and check how their quality is going. Unfortunately these are pointed pellets and are not expected to turn out stellar performance. But with the data you gave me I see that the scale has an error of weighing the JSB just a little bit heavier by about half a grain so it is back to the drawing boards.
Getting a weighing scale made for firearms specifically is going to be waving a red flag to our authorities and I would prefer not to attract any undue attention. Our recently elected leader is riding on a wave of popularity and has declared our entire country under a State of Emergency. I hope you guys have a wise choice when your election comes this year.
Thanks again.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
I would not be too concerned about your scale weighing a 1/2 grain higher. The pellets you weighed (may be) just that. Even a “cheap” jewelry scale ought to be able to be calibrated. If you can not calibrate, you could skew the results with a known weight,…. and some tedious calculations.
Thanks for the good luck on the election. I do not know what else to say beyond that. Well yes I do, but I won’t.
It is interesting that the Philippines is making their own pellets. Done right,… It could be a winner.
If (you) have a blog over there, I would be interested to check it out. That is assuming it is done in English. If not English, then at least some pictures would be cool to see. You seem to be a “watch dog” or “advocate” of air gunning over there.
Restrictions and government?,….. again,… I will hold my tongue. Compared,… we seem lucky.
Chris
Chris USA,
The data you gave me regarding the JSB becomes the known weight. Thus I can now state with some certainty how much our pellets actually weigh. Pellet production remains as a cottage industry here. Have not seen where they produce the pellets but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was only in a small structure maybe the size of a two car garage from the volume they produce. There are occasional shortages as the demand increases seasonally.
I am an advocate for responsible airgunning over here. Active mostly in the local Facebook groups. I think there is no official hunting season over here. Socially we do request “hunters” to impose a bag limit on themselves. There is farm pest control though as some birds destroy the crop and the only alternative is to poison them.
If ever I do get around to it I will submit some articles to B.B. as a guest blog.
Yes, I do agree to what you did not say. Less talk = Less mistakes.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
I am more than happy to help. If I can be of further assistance on pellet weighing, (please let know). I have at least 10 types of .22 pellets. I have no .177 pellets except a can of cheap Crosmans. Then 5 types of the .25’s.
Chris
Matt61—–I dont think that you have to worry about scoliosis from shooting your long bow. English archers began shooting in the bow when they were children. If you are an adult,your skeleton is fully formed. However, there might be other problems, like tendonitis and muscle damage. Arthritis might be another problem. Your age might be a factor in how much bow draw weight you can tolerate. I was never a serious archer, until the age of 70. That is when I began to shoot longbows on a regular basis. The heaviest bow that I shot was a 60# Martin Mountaineer. I recently sold it because it was too powerful for my backyard range. I was getting too many shoot throughs on my targets. Like you, I have been called a fount etc. , on numerous occasions. It is probably the least offensive thing that I have been called. From one fount to another, —Ed
Matt61—-PS— do you have the following books –Long bow–Hardy (not Oliver), The Great Warbow –Hardy and Strickland, Shooting the Stickbow–Camera, Archery–Elmer (doctor, not Fudd), The Medieval Archer–Bradbury (not Ray), Crossbow–Payne-Gallaway ? These books will give you lots of information to add to your fount. —- Ed
Chiming in just in time to SEE the Bricemount premier on B.B.’s Airgun blog; PRICELESS!
Lost most of my shooters but hung on to the good stuff!
Hi Reb,
Got a bit concerned not hearing you chime in for a while. Hope you have had no serious health issues.
Siraniko
BB—–I just bought a Crosman M1 carbine at the Middletown gun show. It has the light brown plastic stock, and the original magazine ! I lubricated it with pell gun oil, and it is in good working order. After 50@ shots, I noticed that the trigger pin ( 350-1b) is missing. I put a pin in the hole and continued to shoot the gun. The pin made no difference. The gun shoots with or without this pin. Did crosman put a n unnecessary part in this gun? ——Ed
Through the Miracle of Pellgun oil I got my 1947 all-wood stock Red Ryder working again. Birthday present from Dad. Recently bought myself a birthday present, being a 75th anniversary Red Ryder. Of course, this new gun couldn’t possibly compare with my trusty ’47.
Huh.
I can shoot the 75th much better, being fairly deadly on mtn Dew cans at 20 paces. I am, sadly, only a mediocre shot so not doubt others can do much better. Use Match Grade Avanti BB’s, they being the largest (actual, measured) dia BBs I can find.
Well, I just ordered a Brice mount too, for mu Red Ryder. I’ll be 63 on Nov. 1st, and my eyesight is deteriorating. Looks like I’ll have to give up on open sights. With, or without, my latest prescription eyeglasses, I often see two front sight posts. I have astigmatism, and, as I found out recently, early stages of cataracts.
And, the trigger on mine is horrible. Very hard pull. Dot sights for me are pretty bad. I have to choose which elongated blob to use for aiming. My BSA RD30 works the best, and it’s like a whopping $25 unit.