by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
The Czech VZ 35 was a large rugged military trainer. This one is missing the upper handguard.
This report covers:
- Airgun Academy Episode 36 is up
- Made for adults!
- The firing mechanism
- Not a plinker
- Sights
- Loading
- Build quality
- A sporter?
- Trigger
- Overall evaluation
Airgun Academy Episode 36 is up
Before we begin today’s report I want to announce that Episode 36 — Safe BB traps is online and ready for viewing.
We haven’t talked about airgun trainers for a while. Today I want to look at one of the most realistic military trainers of all — the Czech VZ 35. This is a bolt action ball-shooting rifle — essentially a BB gun — that fires 4.4mm lead balls through a rifled barrel. It weighs as much as the 8mm CZ 24 Mauser firearm that it copies, which is 9+ lbs. And that’s without the bayonet! Yes, this military trainer accepts a bayonet — the same one that goes on the military rifle.
This airgun was made at the Brno arsenal in the 1930s. The model number gives away the date when they started making them. Production ended sometime before WW II.
Made for adults!
Make no mistake — this is not a child’s BB gun! It is a full-blown military trainer for adult men, many of whom will find the bolt difficult to cock. Pulling back on the bolt handle compresses the mainspring, readying the rifle to fire. Instead of coming straight back, the bolt is attached to a lever at its root that is anchored deep inside the stock. Raising the bolt handle unlocks it for cocking, but instead of traveling backwards, it rocks back through an arc, pulling the mainspring into compression.
The force required to pull the bolt back is considerable, plus the bolt/cocking lever is anchored deep in the pistol grip that is located close to the shooter where it’s difficult to apply force. I can cock the rifle while it’s sitting on my shoulder, but just barely. I wouldn’t want to do it all day!
Lift the bolt handle then pull back and cock the mainspring like this.
The firing mechanism
I said the VZ 35 is a BB gun and it is. Inside this rugged rifle is a mechanism not that different from the one Daisy puts in the Red Ryder. Instead of a piston with a flat seal like a spring-powered pellet rifle would have, the VZ 35 has a plunger. A long air tube on the front of what might be called a piston pushes the ball out of the breech and starts it on its way down the barrel. That’s good for the first 50-75 f.p.s., or so. When the plunger seal closes on the end of the compression chamber it sends a blast of compressed air up the hollow air tube to the back of the ball. This blast then accelerates the ball to its final velocity.
Not a plinker
Once cocked the rifle is very deliberate. It’s definitely not a plinker. The weight and length, the heavy trigger pull plus the military sights combine to make the shooting experience of this rifle very focused. To an extent that’s even greater than the Hakim trainer, this one keeps the shooter thinking about the task at hand.
This rifle shoots pretty hard for a BB gun. It pushes the 7.7-grain ball out the spout at around 425 f.p.s., which puts it into the class of a pellet rifle more than a BB gun. You get something back for that hard cocking effort. And keep your gun oiled, because it does have a leather piston seal.
Sights
The rear sight is calibrated for distances as close as 5 meters. You can actually give the Daisy Champion 499 a run for its money. Of course this one is rifled and the 499 isn’t. I could put 5 shots into a half-inch offhand at 5 meters with mine.
Windage is not adjustable unless you move the front sight. On the rifle I owned the windage was thankfully right on. The elevation marks on the rear sight leaf placed the shots a little high though, so I just used a fine bead on the front sight (putting the tip of the front sight at the bottom of the rear sight notch).
Lead balls are stored in this hopper on top of the spring tube. When the rifle is cocked, the air tube retracts to make room for one ball to fall into the breech.
Loading
The VZ 35 is a repeater that holds around 20 lead balls in a hopper on top of the spring tube. When the rifle is cocked, the air tube on the plunger retracts far enough that one ball can fall in front of it. The top of the hopper is spring-loaded and opens when the catch is depressed. It looks very retro and elegant.
Build quality
A VZ 35 is finished as nicely as any premium firearm — much nicer than it had to be and far better than the Mauser rifle it copied. The stock and handguard (which my rifle is missing) is made from a hardwood that appears to be from the ash family. All metal parts are either highly polished and deeply blued or else left bright. This is an all wood and steel airguns that harkens from the pre war era. The same care that went into a Luger was put into building this air rifle.
As a consequence of the obvious quality, VZ 35s have always commanded high prices whenever they came on the market. You don’t need to be an airgunner to see what’s there. The one I owned was blued as well as a TX 200 Mark III.
A sporter?
I remember spotting a sporter on a table at the now-defunct Roanoke Airgun Expo years ago. I thought someone had cleverly sporterized a military trainer, but collector Larry Hannusch set me straight. Apparently the sporting version of the same gun was made and is found from time to time. I think I have seen two in all my time attending airgun shows, and they might have been the same rifle seen at two different times. In contrast, I’ve seen a dozen VZ 35s.
The difference between the sporter and the military rifle are the length of the gun overall (the sporter is shorter) and the upper handguard on the military version. And of course the sporter does not have a bayonet lug!
This rifle accepts the same bayonet as the firearm it’s patterned after.
Trigger
The initial trigger pull of my VZ 35 was very heavy — in the 10-12lb. range that’s too heavy for me to measure accurately. I disassembled the mechanism (don’t try this unless you are very skilled — this gun is complex) to lube the mechanism and I put moly on the sear and trigger surfaces at the same time. That reduced the pull a little, but this is a simple trigger that won’t ever be light and crisp. I would say I probably got it down to the pull of an average Mauser battle rifle. That’s in the 7-9 lb. range.
Overall evaluation
This is a collector’s airgun — not a good shooter. It’s too difficult to cock, for one thing and the trigger is too heavy for another. But as an object of curiosity it is ideal. I owned the bayonet when I had the rifle and I think no collection is complete without one. If you want some thing no one else has or will even know about, consider getting a VZ 35!
BB
I always like when you report on these military trainers. I always find them interesting.
And I’m going to bring something up that RDNA was talking about the other day. It was could a air gun be fitted onto a firearm stock possibly.
What I wonder about since these military trainers try to copy the weight and feel of the firearm. Are there any of the air gun trainers action or firearm actions interchangeable in the stocks?
GF1,
Yes, air rifles have been inlet into firearm stocks — mostly for training. I know several high-power shooters who have dropped 10-meter rifles like the FWB 300 into M1A stocks. It’s not easy, but once finished they can shoot thousands of shots offhand to keep their trigger finger trained.
B.B.
BB
I bet it would be some work. But for the purpose I think it would be worth it.
And on the subject of trainers and replicas.
That new full legnth stock Mosin Nagant replica is a cool gun. Just wish it was a pellet rifle instead of bb gun.
I would love to see a M1 or Nagant pcp pellet rifle. I would have to say I would have to get one. It would be kind of cool to have one in the big bore calibers or at least in .25 caliber. Obviously it wouldn’t have the same recoil.
And recoil brings up something else. Have they ever added a spring and weighted piston I guess placed in the butt stock of the gun that would simulate the backward kick of when the air gun military trainer fires. You know to give a simulated feel of the firearm.
I wonder what the soldiers thought when the first shot went off from the firearm version when they shot it. Compared to the air gun trainers I bet they had a big surprise when the gun kicked and the shot cracked.
I think you mentioned some of those soldiers never even fired a gun before. I can only imagine what a surprise they had on that virgin shot of the military firearm.
GF1,
Both Gary Barnes and Dennis Quackenbush have built pistols with counterweights that simulate recoil, I believe. I know for certain Barnes built one.
B.B.
BB
I didn’t know about those pistols you mentioned. But the blow back action of certain pistols and of course the normal recoil of pistols and centerfire rifles got me thinking about the simulated recoil in a training air gun.
One circumstance where a harsh shot cycle would be a benefit. Somewhat anyway I suppose.
GF1,
How ’bout a pellet out the front and a blank rifle cartridge to drive a weight rearward in the rear?
Yea, go ahead a say it,…..my mind can go in some pretty weird places sometimes…. 😉
Im glad you brought that up, I think I’ve figured what’d be the closest thing to another, besides these replica dealios, and tube magazined large bore rifle stock might be able to accommodate the air under barrel reservoir tube of lots of pcps in place of the tube magazine. So far, those are the two most similar in configuration I can come up with. Now just finding what caliber takes a tube magazine close to the diameter of the air reservoir and you’ll be very close in some respects to dropping in an air rifle to a firearm stock.
RDNA
What big bore tube fed magazine firearm are you talking about?
GF1, See bottom. 499
Thats a good question! What large caliber tube magazine semi auto rifles are there? Seems like the majority will be underlever. Maybe and over under shotgun or semiautomatic shotgun would be better…
Scratch the over under, they break open, thats not part of our criteria.
RDNA
That’s what I mean. Hard to come up with a air gun power plant that could easily swap into a firearm stock.
But as BB mentioned. Somebody put a FWB 300 action into a M1. I myself find that a real cool idea. I got 2 FWB 300’s right now. That would be a cool project I would like to do at sometime.
RDNA and GF1,
Who says your air reservoir has to be as large in diameter as many are? I have thought it would be cool to have an air rifle that was a replica of the old Henry rifle of the War of Northern Aggression. It would be a single shot PCP that would cock and open the breech with the lever. You could also do a Winchester.
If it was done in .45 it could be used to hunt deer also. You might only have enough air for one good follow up shot, but that would be sufficient. You could carry a small buddy bottle if you felt the need.
RR
Yep I like those guns too.
I guess anything is possible if you try hard enough.
RDNA and GF1,
Who says your air reservoir has to be as large in diameter as many are? I have thought it would be cool to have an air rifle that was a replica of the old Henry rifle of the War of Northern Aggression. It would be a single shot PCP that would cock and open the breech with the lever. You could also do a Winchester.
If it was done in .45 it could be used to hunt deer also. You might only have enough air for one good follow up shot, but that would be sufficient. You could carry a small buddy bottle if you felt the need.
I like the idea of small reservoirs, but getting down to a single shot is better to just go the way of cartridges? Or a built in pump everyone thinks they want (I think many guns would fail before a good self contained pump pcp came along) but having a 3stage pump on a single shot gun is the only reasonable configuration. Make it old school valve (outside lock, low pressure, etc) and the fewest pumps possible to get a big bore bowling. So, hunting single shot, hipower pump, low pressure high efficiency, thatd make a selling self contained.
RDNA,
You are almost to where I am wanting to be. Muzzleloader, outside lock, 1000 PSI, .45 caliber, long barrel for efficiency and styling similar to a long rifle.
I do not think I would want the pump on it simply because of weight. With a 1000 PSI operating pressure, I could carry an AirForce air bottle charged to 3000 PSI in my possibles bag to top it off for a few shots. If I am “at the range” I can bring a hand pump or larger tank to top off.
The FX Independence series are self contained and work quite well from what I understand. If I was to own just one PCP, that would be a good choice.
Love military trainers both pellet and rimfire! Have an MAS Model 45 (Mauser type trainer in .22 lr) and a Diana Model 50 T (Underlever tap-loading Mauser type trainer in .177 pellet.) Both are accurate and robust in construction.
Trainers are not replicas but are military teaching tools for developing shooting skills while simulating the usage of standard issue infantry weapons. Now the Gletcher Mosin Nagant Model 44 I just got is an excellent replica but cannot be considered a trainer….Too delicate, and wouldn’t survive a day being banged-up in the hands of clumsy new soldier recruits. First of all, trainers have to be made of steel.
Some of the most affordable trainers nowadays would be those Chinese side-levers that simulate AK and SKS rifles. They even feature those crude sights, sling swivels, plastic grips and furniture to simulate those found on the real guns.
BB,
I could see me shooting something like this on a regular basis. Like you said, the trigger pull might be heavy, but I bet it breaks real nice. The quality of this air rifle is obvious in the photos. I could see me getting a bunch of lead balls and taking out feral soda cans at “long range”, especially with that sight.
Thanks for bringing the Airgun Academy back.
RR,
RE: Airgun Academy. I hope I can keep on doing it. Edith helped me a lot. She was holding cue cards when I filmed these episodes. I filmed 10 different segments in one day, which means switching from topic to topic and not stumbling with my lines. We did it, but without Edith’s help, I don’t think I could have done it.
B.B.
BB,
I understand. There are so many things I could not do in this world without help.
B.B.,
Tom, there should be a large inventory of used (heavily) government surplus teleprompters up for sale in a year or so. Maybe you could get one of those.
Bugbuster
BB,
Yes, but most of those are bulletproof and weigh a ton. My advance team would complain! 😉
B.B.
B.B.,
How silly of me, I never even considered that, oh well, it was just a thought.
I just finished watching the new Airgun Academy video and the block of duct seal reminds me of a M112 block of C-4.
A thick, thoroughly water soaked, telephone directory or something similar, also makes an excellent backstop for BB’s and pellets. Just a little messy indoors and I must again emphasize THOROUGHLY SOAKED!
Would it be possible that the upper hand guard from one of the many Mauser models be the same or could be modified to fit your VZ 35
Bugbuster
BB,
Anything is possible — unless you ask me to do it. I can modify the upper handguard of a Mauser to become splinters and sawdust.
B.B.
B.B.,
“Advance team”…? Man oh man….that “paint’s” all sorts of pictures. You know you have “arrived on the scene” when you have you have an advance team. Well, come to think about it,…you are a bit of a celebrity! 😉 “Hey you over there,….a Mocha, Capo, Frappuccino,…light on the sugar,….and step on it!”.
Nawww,.. that ain’t you…. 😉
B.B.,
From the very first time I saw a picture of them, on this blog, of course, I have thought that the VZ35 and its slightly less fancy sibling the VZ47 are great looking and impressive, But based on what you’ve written about them I decided years ago to settle for a simple Haenel 310. I’m sure the cocking effort is less on that, and I know that it weighs less than these. It also set me back quite a bit less than one of these would.
These are probably more accurate than my Haenel 310, however. The barrels are probably of higher quality, as is everything else on the VZs. Even with its 4.4 lead shot and rifled bore, my Haenel is just slightly less accurate than my 499 with Avanti steel shot at 5 meters. From farther than that, I would expect the 310 would catch up quickly in accuracy, given the lead plus rifling of that airgun.
Michael
Michael,
Actually, the Haenel 310 is about as accurate as the VZ 35.
B.B.
B.B.,
So the Haenel 310 is more for the shooter while the VZ35 is more for the collector. :^)
Michael
Michael,
That’s my assessment.
B.B.
BB
I’m just jumping in this morning because I’ve been gone the last week or so and have missed the the discussions here. My younger sister passed away unexpectedly last Friday and things needed to be taken care of but now I’m back on line.
I took delivery yesterday of my new Discovery and the goodies to work with it and I am excited to get things assembled and start learning my new toys! Finally getting some better weather here in Denver so a trip into the snow drifted back yard to do a little site in session is on the plan for today. My order from TKO showed up and it really does make the Discovery backyard friendly!
Bruce
Bruce,
I am sorry to hear of your sister’s passing. There is never a good time, but when it’s unexpected it can really strain the rest of the family.
Please keep us informed of how your new Discovery does. Those who have owned them know what a treat they can be.
B.B.
BB
Thanks for the kind words, Tom. It’s true that,as we get older, everyone has to go through this, but when its time you have to pick up and move on to the new day. I’m gonna try to not shoot my new chrony by accident!
Bruce
Bruce,
I am sorry for your loss as well. People always say that. I prefer asking how “they” are doing. Either way, I don’t deal with it well. But, there is no gettin’ around it.
Glad you got all your “goodies”. Best of luck with it all. If you any issues with the chrony, you know where to come for tips…….that would be here on the blog. 😉 Oh,…..and don’t shoot it! 🙂
Michael,
This morning I filled my daisy 1700 with bb’ s and a CO2 cartridge with a drop of pellgun oil of course. Boy what a pleasant surprise no leaks and no comparison to the 1200, it is accurate. I tossed a red plastic drinking glass on the lawn. It took a few shots to get the feel of it. Then I started moving back from about 10 feet. I ended up at 15 yards and after a few ranging shots was able to hit plastic glass about 9 out of 10 shots. Not sure why it is so much more accurate and more power than the 1200. They seem to be identical inside although I haven’t taken them apart.
The 1200 still had CO2 this morning. So far I am happy with both but the 1700 is far better than the 1200, just the way it is with air guns.
Don
Sounds like you found a couple winners there!
I’m glad one is living up to it’s fullest potential.
Reb
Thanks, now I just need to feed them on dry ice. how is that working out?
I may even put a laser sight on the 1700 it seems some of them came with a red dot or laser sight. It has groves on the plastic in front of the rear sight, not sure what the size is maybe 11 mm. I will check it out.
Don and Reb,
My 1700 is a wonderful aluminum can killer. It hits everything I point it at, it seems powerful (never chronied it to prove that), and compared to most of my other CO2 air pistols, it is quiet.
The 1700 is incredibly ergonomic with that target-angled grip. That might explain why we might find it more accurate than the 1200, which you are correct about — the internals are identical. Also, it is light as a feather, so I shoot empty a whole CO2 bulb at a time with it. The lightness is the one thing about it, however. Do not drop it. I have read that if you drop it, it will break — very light duty plastic on those.
Michael
I think you could make any large under lever into an m1 replica by putting it in an m1 replica stock, changing the front sight and underlever catch to look like the M1sight , changing the trigger guard to look like it a M1 trigger guard, and putting an aperture sight on the scope rail. Price it at $250 or less and I bet you sell a lot of them.
Brent,
I once saw a Crosman M1 carbine BB gun in a genuine surplus M1 stock. The owner said it was surprisingly more work to get it to fit than he expected, although it did look good.
Michael
Try as I might, I looked under CZ in my blue book which led to a search under VZ that sent me back to CZ.
I tried but still don’t have an idea of the market value of this gun or it’s sporting version. If I had to guess I’d probably say a shooter might be in the$300+ and up for the ones in good-excellent.
Reb,
Shooters go for $375 and up. Nice ones are bringing $600-700.
B.B.
Thanks B.B! Guess I missed it a bit but still kinda in the ballpark.
I’d like to see one!
Maybe of interest to Avanti 499 shooters…..
A few days ago, the topic of “sleeving” the barrel with tubeing came up. That would be on rifles that the actual shot tube is removable, which the 499 does.
I looked at what I had laying around and found some clear pvc 1/4″ id tubeing. A bit too small, I split it and ended up with about a 1/8″ linier gap. Enter electrical tape. And, since the barrel threads in, some Teflon thread tape.
My 10 shot groups were cut in near 1/2! Not one group, but 3. Comparison was easy as the target is a homemade 12 bull, that already had 7 bulls shot up. Nothing else changed. Pattern was much denser. ( 1/2″ @ 24′ )
No bull,…immediate results.
Chris,
Photos and text, please. Call it a guest blog. 😉
B.B.
B.B.,
Much honored. I just figured how to send pics on a phone, let alone a laptop. It’s all true, 100%. I would urge anyone with a 499 to try it. Quick and 100% reversible. It was not me. I had not shot it for about 3 weeks. I am still amazed. As for “text”, the above is pretty much it. Anyone that has had a 499 barrel out knows how quick it would be. Maybe,……..youuuu? 😉
Chris,
I find my 499 is pretty accurate at 20 feet or closer if I use Avanti Precision Ground Shot, but even MORE accurate is always nice, especially if it means being able to move out farther. I would love to see a guest blog on that mod. Do you think it is a process that could be applied to other soda straw barrels?
I must ask, do you know of a mod that will make ME more accurate? (LOL)
Michael
Michael,
I would think that it could be applied to any soda straw barrel, as long as you can get to it.
As for you, (and ME), practice, practice, practice! That is why indoor practice is so important, for those who live in colder Winter climates. At least you keep the “feel” fresher, sighting practice, breathing, holds, trigger feel, etc., etc. Accuracy at the normal indoor range is going to be fairly close, so accuracy is something to take with a grain of salt. They all look good at that distance, even the bad ones.
Michael,
Just caught the “guest blog” part. I do well to turn it on and find my way back here everyday if that gives you any idea on my tech knowledge. There is really nothing to it. Just what I said, and that was pretty brief. A guest blog, or a BB blog idea would be a “tune” on a 499. Get into the guts of it. That would be reader. They were in pieces at one time,….they must come apart! There is no doubt something on You Tube, just have not looked. Chris
Awesome! I had some flyers before the mod on my Airmaster but now I know if I miss it’s my fault and not the gun’s.
Glad it worked well for you!
Reb,
I am pretty sure that you were a big part of that idea….. 😉 Thanks!
But it’s the execution that offers results.
I guess you could say I probably got the idea from the aftermarket suppliers’ offering their little stubs.
Reb, “stubs”? Sorry,..could not figure that one out.
Someone once sold little 1-2″ long pieces called “barrel stabilizers”.
Sounds like something Air Venturi might offer but I just tried to find them and all I got was mini 14 stuff
Reb,
This was full length, as you suggested. And yes, we talked about smaller bands. An O-ring at the cap would be a final mod. but the plastic already fits the shroud pretty tight as it is. Not sure I want to “carve” on it,….so to speak. ( Dampen muzzle from shroud )
If it cut group size in half I’d leave it alone and enjoy what very well could be THE most accurate BB gun ever.
Reb,
Well said. If I was B.B. or GF1, that now 1/2″ would be more like a 1/4″.I guess the bottom line is, no matter how good,…or bad;(,….I shoot, it cut MY group size in half.
Not sure what is working, but something for sure is.
Harmonic stabilization and thread seal I guess.
Chris USA
This is a seriuos question.
Since that mod worked and cut your group’s in half.
I really, really want to know what kind of group the gun will produce now at 10 yards and really at 15 yards.
Here’s the question. Can you please test the gun now at 15 yards and report what group size it gets. No comparisons. I want to know what your gun will do at that distance now with the mod.
Thanks.
Looks like a lot of fun. But I still can’t figure out what role it plays in military training. If the trainees are supposed to transition to firearms for training later, that is an exhaustive process. If they are expected to switch to firearms on the battlefield, I don’t think this will go well. I was talking to a U.S. Army soldier at a JROTC training camp, and he lamented the fact that they never got to fire their TOW missiles for practice. He said that he expected on the first few shots that this extremely expensive round would go up in the air off target. He went on to say that the entire state of Nevada was one big ammunition dump, so he didn’t see why some of it couldn’t be used for practice. Interesting.
Still, the rifle looks to be a lot of fun. With all that weight I do wonder if it wouldn’t be better to get the real thing and dry fire it which is what I do. The decision would depend on how much you would want to shoot the gun at home which is something you definitely will not do with a Mauser. That bolt does indeed look awkward to cock. It makes me think that what is called a “smooth” action may not depend so much on the mechanism itself as how it engages the body’s ergonomics. The fabled Lee-Enfield action may not actually be intrinsically smoother than a Mauser. But the cock on closing action somehow allows you to build up momentum in the bolt throw and engage the arm and shoulder. Somehow you naturally whip that bolt through the cycle. This trainer action with the awkward rotation could be even harder to cock than the measured cocking force would indicate.
Interesting about the trigger. I wouldn’t guess that my Mauser trigger is as much as 9 lbs. It’s not light, but it doesn’t feel that heavy, just enough to prevent a premature discharge in the field. The two stage trigger is a great design that I think you can use effectively provided that it is not unreasonably heavy. That is one reason the three stage trigger on my CZ 75 has thrown me off although I am getting the hang of it.
Matt61
B.B.,
This VZ35 is a great looking rifle. Sounds like it shoots well too! Was it used by the Czech military only or did others use it? It seems that most, if not all, of the military trainers you have shown us are BB rifles. Why not pellet rifles given their greater accuracy? Were these trainers only used for teaching how to handle a rifle and not for how to shoot one at all?
I really enjoy all of the replica rifles and pistols but I definitely prefer them when they are pellet shooters. I have to agree with the writer above that if the Mosin Nagant full size BB gun was a pellet rifle I would buy it in an instant. But not as a BB gun.
Also, I keep waiting for Winchester (or somebody) to build the M14 with a wood stock or at least a synthetic(plastic) stock as nice as the one that Gletcher makes.
I would buy both of the rifles I have mentioned(plus this one) in a second with better stocks and/or as pellet shooters. Maybe if we keep complaining long enough some one will respond. I absolutely love my 1894 Winchester replica by Walther and you can actually hit something with it at a reasonable distance.
G&G
G&G,
Just curious,…how many shots do you get out of an 88 gram cartridge?
Chris,
I have never bothered to actually count but I know it’s over 200.
G&G
G&G,
I don’t have any information about where the rifle was used.
B.B.
B.B.,
While maybe an obvious question,….the above mentioned 499 “mods.” would be illegal in competition?
Chris,
I don’t know. It would have to be researched.
B.B.
Only if you got caught. 😉
On the serious side of things though, I personally despise people who feel they must “cheat” to insure they “win”. Though it is repugnant to me, I can somewhat understand when money is involved, but how in the world can you savor a win knowing that you could not do such without an unfair advantage?
As for the legality of modifying the BB gun in competition, when the competitions first began with the model 99, the coaches would order extra barrel assemblies and swap them out to find the assemblies that shot best. Daisy eventually caught on and tightened up the tolerances on the barrels and built the 499.
There may or may not be rules against sleeving the barrel and other modifications, but I personally do not think it is a good idea to be teaching young people that they need to be looking for unfair advantages in competitions. We have enough Tom Bradys as it is.
Having said all that, I am not competing, therefore I am very interested in your mods to the 499. I think I may have to tear into my 99 and see what I can do. 🙂
RR,
Very cool! You may have read that it went from a barrel sleeve to a full tear down. Chopped 12fpe TX spring. The piston has got to go. May pay to have one made. It will be down a few. I will keep every one posted. Still studying the parts for the best solution. If goes as planned, new piston, new spring and moly at all the right points. Keep us posted on the 99. You will be surprised at the construction of a stamped steel parts bb gun. Real surprised! 😉 Chris
Chris USA and all, i have a suspicion that as the 499 is used the steel BB’s gradually erode the barrel. This would occur most when the barrel was new and tight and diminish as the bore size increases and then stop. If true, on average, new 499 barrels should be most accurate and then diminish to merely fantastic.
Keeping a layer of oil in a new barrel might help and also make the barrel very slightly tighter. This and changing barrels selected for accuracy frequently I think would be competition legal.
Just theory. I like my 499 too much to mess with it. I should buy another.
Fido3030
Fido,
Nice comment. I still want to get into the “guts” of it! There has to be something to be improved! But, I am pretty sure that B.B. said that there is no internal mods. to be done. That was even before I got it. I asked, because I know me! “)
B.B.,
Interesting air rifle. I also enjoy reading about these “out of the norm” air guns.
I just picked up a S & W Model 78. It needs re-sealing. I looked at your old posts about this gun and see you referenced Dave Gunter. The link you provided five or six years ago now points to some IT company website, and the phone number goes to a customer service line. Do you — or anyone else on here — have good contact info for him? Or is there someone else I can send this thing to? I’d like to get it tuned as well — or at least operating as well as it can.
Thank you.
Jim M.
Jim,
An S&W 78 and 79 shouldn’t be too difficult to fix for a repairman. Have you tried Willnecker or Baker?
Baker Airguns @ (937) 660-9152 https://www.bakerairguns.com Email: info@bakerairguns.com
B,B.
Thanks B.B!
I have read those names on here before, but didn’t associate them with the 78 repair.
Merry Christmas!
Jim
GF1,
To the above request,….why 10 and 15 yds.? If I am not mistaken,…it is a 5 meter rifle. Sure, I will try it….but why the specifics on distance? Oh,…on the 15,… my indoor only goes to 41′. I could use a 50yd. addition if you are feeling generous,….with all that O.T…… 😉 Won’t be tonight or tomorrow, but I will do since you asked.
Chris USA
I would like to know how accurate your gun is at 15 yards now.
If I can do that mod and use the 499 inside in the winter great. But also if I could get some can plinking done with it outside next summer at 15 or so yards I would be even more interested in getting one.
I’m not worried about hitting the 10 ring with it out at those distances but it would help me make a choice to get the gun if it will plink cans at those distances.
I just don’t care for up close shooting. I would even just for the heck of it if I had the 499 and done that mod shoot it out maybe even farther.
I got into some air soft sniper guns with a 3-9 power scope on it. Done a spring mod and used the heavier weight airsoft balls. I was killing cans at 35 yards with it bench resting. And could hit 2 liter soda bottles out at 50 yards when I got the hop up back spin dailed in. Pretty much was getting a pellet gun trajectory out of the air soft ball.
So that’s why. To try something different. I like pushing the design of stuff always. That’s what I do.
GF1,
I like your passion for the sport!!! 😉 With long arms and tall, and adding 1″ to the pellet rifles, you can imagine what it is like for me to shoot a 499. Notes made and will do. I would say that with almost 100% certainty that you could 1/2 whatever I get.
As for power, the 499 will (most) of the time punch box cardboard backer @ 24′. I think if it hits a “rib”, the bb gets stuck. So,….at 41′ I may have to re-think a backer. I got some of those “official” targets, so maybe I will give them a try….no backer. Then there is the hold over with an insert front…..should prove interesting….. 😉 Will do,….will do.
Thought you had 1 or 2 on the way? Maybe top secret Santa stuff? I had to wait on mine. They are always out of them. They go quick.
Chris USA
No haven’t got any yet. Sometimes I drag my feet. And other Christmas obligations I guess I’ll call it that is occupying the money situation.
But yep whatever info you come up with will be great.
And see your already thinking about hold over and stuff. Just another way to make things a little more challenging. In a fun way you know.
Whenever you get to it will be fine. Thanks.
GF1,
I pre-ordered, after they would always show up and quickly disappear. I lucked out because they got 6 in, all on pre-orders, and one of them cancelled. So I got it. You had better get an order in now to reduce the wait later on. There seems to be “line”. I have not checked lately, maybe they got a stash now. What is up with the 15.89’s? Been waiting to put in an order, but waiting for those to get back in stock. With everything going on over there in that general area, maybe lead will be in short supply? I see the 18.21 snipers were in stock. I may give them a go. Plus some good .177 for the 92FS. The 747 pistol is “whispering in my ear” as well. I’m “hooked”! 😉
Chris USA
The 15.89 JSB’s sell out fast.
What does that tell you about them.
😉
GF1,
“What does that tell”,……?,…..I think I might have just a weeee bit of an idea. 🙂
Sounds like a pre-order,…..might be in order.
Chris USA
Well I would sure pre-order a order you know what I mean. 🙂
GF1,
Forget about the 499. What you need to do is track down a good deal on a 99. I picked up my 1959 for $35. It is in remarkably good shape and though it is not quite as accurate as the 499, it is pretty good. I can dump a bunch of BBs in it and kill feral soda cans all day long, out to a pretty good range too.
Another big plus is it does not have a safety on it!
RR
Sounds like a fun gun. I will have to check them out.
Chris USA, here’s something that may be of interest: having found a BB that the 840 liked, (Hornady Black Diamond) I went down to the 5 meter range for some relaxing fun. All of a sudden accuracy was awful! I panicked since I had “published” some favorable results. Long story short, after trying many things I found that lightly oiling the bore did the trick and the average of 5 consecutive groups was .325 ctc..(hard to measure BB groups exactly.)
You might want to experiment with lubrication on your 499.
BTW on the 74 when accuracy drops off the first thing to suspect is low CO2 even though sound is normal.
Gun Fun, I had no idea airsoft could be that accurate! I think I’ll try it. What a great Blog this is!
Fido3030
Fido3030
Long story short BB did a blog on airsoft guns quite a while back and the ole mind started thinking. What if I could make one of those longer range sniper guns a fun little plinker.
Got a scope on it. Turned up the power. Then played around with different weight air soft ammo. Just like we do with our pellet guns and such. Found the most accurate in at like 15-20 yards. Then started moving the distance out and ended up at 35 yards and hitting a aluminum can pretty consistently. Like 9 out of 10 shots. And the air soft ammo was going completely threw both sides of the can pretty much every shot.
So decided what the heck. Ain’t going to know if I don’t try. So moved out to 50 yards shooting 2 liter plastic soda bottles and gallon plastic milk jugs. That’s when I started messing with the hop up which puts the back spin on the ammo. Finally got that arched trajectory out of it. I could hit the bottles and jugs pretty much every time after that out at 50.
The ammo wasn’t penetrating at 50 yards but was sure denting the plastic I guess you call it. Definatly had fun with the gun. And I was using the biodegradable air soft ammo. So no worries about them laying around or picking them up later like steel bb’s.
I don’t think all the air soft guns are as accurate as others. But I figured going with a sniper model since they were designed for longer distances. I just wanted to push the gun so I knew what it would do. Then just make sure I stayed inside that pushing distance when I shot. Then the gun was fun. And really if you think about it. We all should know that about all our guns we shoot. They all have their limit at some point. We just need to find it. Shoot within it and we will be more happy with the guns and ourselves if you think about it.
GF1,
Interesting on the air soft. Never messed with them, but I did not think that they would punch through an alum. can even at 15 yards. Don’t people shoot at each other with air soft, like paint ball? I have seen the bruises that paint balls can leave.
So you only turned up some sort of power knob and played with the “hop up” device? You did not get into the “guts” of it? I see you getting into the valve and changing out springs or valves or something.
Chris USA
One of the reasons I never messed with air soft was because of the idea of shooting a gun at a person. My dads number one rule with gun handling was never point a gun at something that you could hurt or kill unless you were hunting. Especially a person. He didn’t like when we played war with or toy guns when we was kids. But loaded or unloaded it didn’t matter. And as you see like I said before. I got the one I had to plink with and see what I could make it do.
And yes some air soft guns can be made to shoot harder. There is some different mechanisms and power plants for the air soft guns. I’ll tell you about the type I had. And yes the people do feel it when they get hit. Some wear protective close and masks when they do the war games. Search “air soft war games with a sniper rifle” on You Tube and watch some videos. You might be surprised by what you see.
The gun I had was basically a fixed barrel spring gun. They are layed out a little different than bb or pellet guns. When you pulled the bolt back that cocked the gun. And they sale heavier springs. So I put one in. But when you cock the gun a air soft ball was loaded in the barrel from the bottom from a spring loaded clip that you filled with the air soft balls with a speed loader. I can’t remember how many the clip held but I think it was around a hundred air soft balls. I may be wrong though. That was a few years back when I had it.
But the “hop up” is not a modification. It is something that is incorporated into some location on the smooth bore barrel on some air soft guns. It’s sort of like what the pumpkin chuckers do. It puts back spin on the air soft ball as it passes by. And you can adjust it to put more or less spin on the air soft ball. Mine had a little slide lever that you slid forward or backwards.
When you shoot the gun it controls what the air soft ball does as it flys. Probably mostly in the middle of its flight till the end. You can make the ball go farther with it. And you can make the ball fly straight and level. You can make the ball rise and curve up at the end of its flight or you can make it arch downward.
I had mine shooting pretty flat out to about 20 yards then would raise at about 35 yards and start slowly dropping off by time it hit 50 yards. Had the scope zeroed at around 30 yards so had to use some hold over at 50 yards and hold under 25 yards and under.
It was pretty fun. And you should search some of the different power plants and mechanisms. It’s a way to own a full auto replica gun like a Tommy gun and blast some soda cans outside with the biodegradable air soft balls.
See I do like other kind of shooting besides punching paper for the ultimate group. 🙂
Fido3030,
I will keep the oiling in mind. I have some 0-20 full syn. and some RWS chamber oil. A light coat with a pull through or push through can’t hurt. Co2 can be tricky. You could keep good records of shot count and chrony shots every 10 shots or so. At some point you should see a correlation between fps and accuracy even if the “sound” is normal. On my 92FS I can do 8 eight shot clips, 64. The sound is still normal at 64. Go another 8, and the sound starts to drop off. Go another 8 and risk a sticker. As it turned out, it came with 2 and I got 2 more 3 packs, which ended up being just right. Fill up all 8 and when they are done, swap the 12g cartridge.
Gunfun1,
Here is your test results. 10 at 41′ was 2.125″. 8 of those 10 was 1.0″ The paper had dents in the back side where the bb’s bounced off the steel backer, but did not come back out of the paper. So that gives you an idea of power left at that range.
I cut a cardboard backer and just put notebook paper over it. I have the smallest insert in now (and it has a very small washer in that. Less than 2mm. opening). I put one of those 3/4″ dots high on the paper and just aimed at that. 3 1/4″ low and 1/4″ left.
There you go! 😉 Family stuff today so see ya’ all later this evening. Chris
Should say (cut-out) a cardboard backer. The bb’s went through paper only.
Chris USA
Thanks a bunch. That sounds like a aluminum can killer to me for outside fun next year.
And I’m getting ready to go out and shoot. I ain’t took one shot all week. It’s suppose to be a 3-4 mph wind today out of the north west which is my good direction. So I’m ready for action. And I better get it while I can. Tomorrow the darn wind is comming back. 15-17 mph with gusts up to 25 mph.
So getting ready to shoot now. Later.
GF1,
No problem. Had some spare moments this AM,…and I did not want you “chomping at the bit” all day,…so I worked it in. Thanks for the airsoft advice. 38g. and 500 fps,…who would have guessed. 38g,…really?
Getting shot with ones of those,….no thanks! I agree on that whole notion as well.
Chris USA
Yep I was surprised you got it done already.
And the air soft balls are rated by grams. Not grains. I forgot the number to use to convert. I think the PA caculater can do that though.
So 38 grams is lighter than 38 grains. But I do know people that have had to dig the air soft ball out of them.
You do not want to shoot your bare unprotected skin with certain air soft guns. They will penatrate.
GF1,
Thanks for that clarification. I just looked them up and was about to reply. That did not sound right anyways. Get a 499 and mod. the holy crap out if it! You would be the one to do it! 😉
Chris USA
Yes if I got a 499 I would for sure put it to the test.
Can’t see it any other way.
GF1,
(“if” ?),…..Mmmmn,…..Mmmmmn? The 499 shooters of the “World” await…. 😉
Chris USA
How come its only me all the time?
There has to be other people out there that want more out of what they have or know how far something will go.
Ain’t there?
GF1,
Well,…..you are about the best and the most experienced here. At least the tuners that post on a regular basis…..yea….that was a compliment,…in an awkward sort of way.
😉 Chris
Chris USA
Don’t say that. “The best” I just try.
You know what they say about the things that work don’t you?
How many fails were there before somebody got it right.
I just say what I find happens. And I’m not doing anything different that what you or somebody else does.
I have just had more fails probably than everybody else. I’m pretty sure that’s how it is.
GF1,
You did say gram.,….my bad. ( at 10:01am to Fido)
GF1,
There are 454 grams in a pound. There are 7000 grains in a pound. A gram weighs 15.43 grains.
B.B.
BB
Thanks for posting that.
And I see what you mean. I forgot to put the decimal point in front of the number when I was talking to Chris.
Should say .38 grams is lighter than 38 grains.
Thanks for catching that. Se how much difference one little point makes. 🙂
GF1
I was checking out the 499 on Chairgun. It showed about -3.5 inches low at 41 feet about what Chris got. I do not know where he is sighted in at so I used 5 yards. It shows about -11 inches at 20 yards. Looks like a mortar after that. If you want to get past 20 you will need one of the folding long range sights that can go up above 4 inches. Or mount it on a turret where you can walk it in at 40 yards with zero wind. I think you could hit a 2 liter foil wrapped soda bottle at 30 yards with the right set up on a dead calm day. Chairgun shows about a -32 inches at 30 yards.
If it is not raining tomorrow I am going to try some long range tin can shooting with my Daisy 1700 CO2 pistola. It is amazingly accurate for what it is. I want to give it a try at 20 yards on cans. I think I can get 50 percent or better hits with it. I cant believe I am having this much fun with this pistol. It is so easy with no pressure to have everything perfect for each shot.
Benji
You know what you just put it perfectly.
“Having this much fun” and no pressure.
That’s the main thing. Enjoy shooting your gun how you like. If it makes you happy at the end of the day then it was all worth while.
Everybody has their own thing that makes them happy. And air guns is a very good way to enjoy yourself no matter what kind of air gun shooting you like..
Benji-Don,
Checking up on me, ehhh? 😉 Keep at it……keeps a person honest that way. Thanks for the back up. Mine was sighted at 24′. Plug that into Chairgun. I really need to do Chairgun more.
Chris
Not checking just trying to calibrate chairgun. I was extrapolating. I will check out 24. I think it will show less drop than you got. Will check back tomorrow.
Don
Benji-Don,
Just kidding around. I really do appreciate the research on your end. I look forward to hearing what the difference might be. I ain’t the best shot,….but I ain’t half bad. Thanks, Chris
Great posts!
ChrisUSA, Daisy recommends 20w non-detergent which i used on the pump head and pivots. I used Crosman Pelgun oil on barrel. I’m going to dig out my 499. I never cleaned barrel. I thought it might be eroding–maybe it’s just dry. Accuracy is still fantastic though.
BB, any info on who designed the 499? I’d like to buy them a cup of coffee!
Gunfun1, awesome, Can you suggest a brand/model sniper rifle? For accuracy do you like spring, electric, gas? I’m really a novice on airsoft although i have a few almost-toys pistols for aerial can popping. Are heaviest BB’s best? Sounds like another fun project!
Merry Christmas all!
Fido3030
Fido,
I imagine Orin Ribar had a lot to do with the 499. You’l find him at the Daisy Museum.
B.B.
Fido3030
Here is one similar to what I had. /product/utg-master-sniper-airsoft-rifle-green?m=1236
Mine was black. You can get them with a scope combo too. I think I put my own scope on the one that I had. And you can get them with the heavier spring installed already.
When your looking for one for plinking like I did. keep a eye on the feet per second it lists and what weight air soft ammo they used. I was using something like a 38 gram ball I thought and mine was up in the 500 fps zone with the heavier ammo. They came in a bag and they were a light green color and biodegradable. But the green actually allowed me to see the air soft ball good in flight so I could get the hop up tuned in for the trajectory.
They are fun to mess with. And a good way to teach kids about trajectory with the hop up adjustment and being able to see the ammo in flight.
Let me know if you pick one out. That link I provided has a video also. I did not check the video out. But there is a lot of videos out there about air soft. Again let me know if you pick something out.
GF1,
I’ve enjoyed reading your comments to Chris in the thread above. I’ve had one of those air soft sniper rifles in mind for myself. I have an air soft pistol I keep in my office for sighting drills, trigger squeeze practice, etc. I’ve thought about the rifle for the same thing — practice in the house — and also for using as a trainer for my boys.
Jim M.
Jim M.
Thanks. And yep they are fun and good training tools.
We had a little semi-auto blowback pistol with a red laser mounted underneath it at the same time as the sniper air soft gun. And just a reminder. Had the air soft guns in the middle of probably my most seriuos time of air gun pellet shooting.
But me and my two daughters and wife use to shoot it in the house all the time at one of those dart board looking gell targets. Was pretty fun. Especially the idea of point and shoot with the laser.
We took it out in the summertime and set some cans out at about 10 yards and plinked with it. No laser though. It wasn’t a very good laser. But yep they were fun.
I kind of like the air soft guns better than bb guns I think. There is definitely alot of cool air soft guns out there.
Fido3030,
“20w on pump head? As in the,… piston seal on a 499? I see nowhere to oil it and the manual says,…no internal lubrication required. Did I miss something? Chris
Hi Chris, I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. I was talking about the 840, a single pump pneumatic, when i was telling about the pump head and pivots. My bad. cordially
Fido3030
Thanks, BB!
Gunfun1 thanks for the link. Wish i knew how to do that. Ok, it’s on my drool list for after Christmas. The video is awesome and the reviews are good. It looks like a great way ro start serious airsoft. Thanks for all the advice!!! Saves me from wasting monet by buying almost at random and then moving up.
Fido3030
Fido3030
No problem. Hope you get one.
If you do. You got to tell us about what you got. And of course how it shoots.
I do suggest for sure the biodegradable ammo for outside. If your like me and shoot all the time you’ll have them all over the place. The regular air soft ammo is there forever. The biodegradable ones take some time to go away but at least they do.
GF1,
Well,….. you try more than 99%. That is a real treat for the rest of us.
Those 90% fails, lead to those 10% successes.
Thanks for the hard (work?),…. and sharing. Outa’ here,…Chris
Several people here have been musing about buying the Mosin Nagant M44 if it were a pellet rifle. It is quite possible to design such a system based on the D-Boys Mauser Kar 98K air soft bolt action. That long gun features ejecting cartridges that you can load up with airsoft bbs, much like the pellet and bb cartridges for the Colt Peacemaker air revolvers. Of course the D-Boys Mauser replica is a springer gun, but a system for chanelling CO2 through the bolt should be doable. Install such a system and couple it with a rifled barrel and Voila! A replica WWII bolt action pellet gun!
The D-Boys Mauser replica is dimensionally so close to the real thing that when the magazine spring broke on mine, I was able to replace the brittle original with a real Kar 98K magazine spring which made it it ultra reliale.
Lioniii
Thanks for posting that idea. And your gun sound like a interesting airsoft gun.
That’s what I do like about air soft guns. Alot more choices of guns than bb guns. But I’m glad that there is the other guns made that shoot bb’s or pellets too.
But I still wish for some pcp pellet shooting military guns to come out. Would love a Nagant or M1 pcp. I can see myself doing some long range dirt clods sniping out at a 100 yards with either gun. And hopefully it would be at least .25 caliber. I could have fun with one. I do know that.
Gunfun1,
Well, I saved you the trouble of doing a “super tune” on a 499. Got mine 100% down including spring, piston seal, etc. Quite the challenge to get the spring out. Hard to explain. Some pressure on the spring with a bamboo bbq skewer did the trick, then popped out a “tab” that can be seen on the assembled rifle. YouTube and Google had 0% anything on getting it this far down. There is (definitely) a special tool for getting the tab and spring out. Took about 1 1/2 hrs. of studying it to figure what to try. The rear stock, trigger assy., safety and cocking lever all came out and the spring assy. was still in there.
Still looking it all over and thinking about what, if anything to do. Re-lube for sure. It was not bad, but could have been a whole lot better.
It chronied at 205 avg., but it is advertised at 240. Very unique construction. Nothing like a conventional springer.
Chris USA
That’s what I’m talking about!
If you get a fps increase I just may explore the idea of a…how should I say it. A accurate 20 yard BB gun.
Wouldn’t it be great if it happens. I sure love when something works out in a good way that most would not expect.
You said you finally learned how to send pictures on your phone. Didn’t you?
If so I would like pictures of the tab and the other things you see. If you don’t mind of course.
And another thing to get excited about. 🙂
GF1,
Yea on the pics,….I sent you a few,…remember?…… 😉 20 yd……? Thought you were going for 10 and 15? I will study it this week and decide want I want to do. The 12fpe TX spring may be a candidate. Might be too much for the cocking lever and the latch sear though. Shim the spring? I got 2 washers that are perfect but would only add 1/4″.
With 0 info., I was definitely out there on my own. You might say,…499 bb rifle?,…how hard could it be?,……I’ll bet getting that spring out would have left you scratching your head too.
Chris USA
A Tx spring? That’s pretty heavy.
Is the coil diameter small on the 499 spring? Or is it shorter.?
A bigger diameter coil is the way to go if it will clear everything. I’m talking inside diameter and outside diameter of the spring. It won’t add alot more cocking effort like a longer spring will. Added preload is ok if not excessive.
Measure spring legnth, outside diameter, inside diameter and coil diameter. Then we will know what spring to choose to up the power if ones available.
And yes I know what you mean about how to figure out how to get something apart. The main thing is not tearing it up so it will go back together.
And most importantly keep the factory parts so it can be put back to stock condition.
GF1,
499 .079″ wire dia. and TX 12fpe spring is .115″. 499 length is 6 15/16″ and the TX is 7 7/16″. If you remember, the 12 fpe spring was cut to 1/16″ pre-load.
The TX spring dropped all the way down with slop, but is bigger. ID and OD no issue.
That would work?
Chris USA
Need to watch for coil bind with the bigger coil diameter and longer legnth of the Tx spring.
If its to long you won’t be able to cock the gun. Plus the extra pressure from the extra preload wont really do anything but make the gun harder to cock and possibly break something.
I say make the Tx spring the same legnth as the 499 spring or just a bit less because of the bigger diameter coil. Maybe a 1/16″- 1/8″ shorter.
You’ll just have to assemble and see.
GF1,
Yea, that is about what I figured. I had coil bind on the TX 12 fpe kit with the Torrington if I remember correct. Or,… that could have been the stock? Or that might have been the HO with a Torrington????? Oh yeah, I had to cut the outer tube on the 12 fpe. with the Torrington. Man,….all this tuning stuff is scrambling the ‘ol Noggin. 😉
Thanks for the advice,….Chris
Chris USA
Yep I have had to cut the inner spring guide too.
But that usually happens if you use to many spacers or or whatever you call them to add more preload.
GF1,
The 12 fpe Vortek kit spring tubes may work as well. Imagine that,….. a 499 with a Vortek tune kit!!!!!! Might be a slight bit of modding reqd. 😉 ,….but I think it would work!
Chris USA
Yep its all about fit and function.
You wouldn’t believe how many guns I found will accept the factory Tx spring.
The main trick is measuring the factory spring of the gun you want to mod. Increasing the dimensions will cause fitting problems. Get the most out of the fit and the gun should get a higher velocity.
But then the shot cycle comes into play.
Anybody heard of a 499 that needs the artillery hold?
GF1,
Got some real GOOD laughs on that one !!!!! 🙂 Scope?,…Tri-pod? You need to get one so we can do the same mods. at the same time. Now,……if I only knew a Machinist? 😉 I am sorta thinking that the seal area could use an upgrade. The piston, if you want to call it that, could use some tips from it’s bigger Brothers.
Outa’ here,…..Chris ( artillery hold on a bb rifle,…..still grinning ) !!!! 🙂
Chris USA
I’m betting the seal needs to be better. 240 fps from the factory. Right?
Well I’m sure that seal will need bumped up if the spring pressure is increased. Blow by will eventually happen at some point.
That’s the thing about modding. When one thing is increased probably something else will need changed.
Balance man! It all about balance.
GF1,
The seal and the piston are 1 piece if you can believe that. A white harder plastic. The front side is made somewhat like a parachute seal but I doubt that there is very little if any expansion going on with as hard as it is. Even a machined piston with a groove for an o-ring would be a vast improvement. The way the compression tube is made, access to get an accurate id is all but impossible.
Chris USA
Can’t you measure the front of the piston/seal diameter. That should give you the right measurment if you wanted to do something with sealing it better.
While watching Steven Seagal clips and loading ammo this weekend, I came across some information that might be of interest. This from a former Delta Force trooper. He explains that when using a laser on a rifle, you want to mount it on the side, NOT underneath the barrel. And when you zero, you do not adjust your laser to coincide with your optic. You zero it to strike the same distance to the side of the laser as the laser is from the center of the bore. Why? It took me awhile to figure this out. But if your laser coincides with point of impact at any one distance, it will be off at all the others. This is because the angle and distance from the bore are different from your optical sight, so there will be only one point of intersection. By zeroing the laser at a specific horizontal offset from the bore, your elevation will be identical to the optical sight and your windage will never change either. Kind of interesting and it reinforces our earlier comments about the importance of scope height over bore which I am now a believer in.
Also, the Delta trooper answers some of my questions about tactical lights. Basically, you only shine them on the target when shooting which I had sort of figured out. What about losing your night vision from the beam? That is something you have to live with. But part of what makes it worthwhile is that the light not only illuminates the target for you but also blinds him which is a good idea. As for activating the lights, he does not believe in pressure switches because they are unreliable. My own experience exactly. I couldn’t get the darned things to turn on reliably. The trooper says to activate the switch on the light.
As for lasers, he’s a big fan. BUT the benefit he describes is solely in frightening the enemy by playing the laser on them. Or it is for finding booby trap wires for IEDs. Not things I will be doing. He doesn’t say that they add to the aiming process although they obviously work.
Anyway, it is great to live in a country where you can get this kind of info from top secret warriors!
Matt61
Try shutting one eye when you turn on the light. It may preserve the night vision in that eye.
Fido 3030
Matt61
That’s only at a given distance on elevation.
The point of impact will always change in relation to point of aim at different distances. Even without a scope.
Have you put it on paper with a laser yet? I have.
What kind of kill zone did he use? 6 inches? The zeroed in distance will represent one aim point.
Windage will always fall to the left or right of aim point. But up and down aim points have to change with distance. Even without a scope.
Matt61
Also I don’t think that he is thinking about trajectory.
Maybe his idea of sighting works with a higher velocity round because it has a flatter trajectory at shorter distances.
It’s not going to work out the same for a pellet trajectory that is moving 2/3rds of what that center fire round is. Or even rim fire velocity’s. Well except for the .17 hmr rounds which have their own unique trajectory.
Even if you sigh a laser at one barrel distance with a gun at a given distance. The other ranges/yardage will hit different. You have to account for trajectory. That’s the way it is. Other physics come into play.
Put some paper out and try is all the can say.
Hi B.B. and All,
Made a discovery. While shooting my Daisy 840 I found that putting a little Pellgun Oil on my fore-finger and rubbing it againat my thumb and then wiping excess off of both and then gently rubbing each BB between fore-finger and thumb while loading it in the magazine dramatically shrunk groups. It’s so easy to do I hope others will try it and post the results. Too much oil is counter productive and the point of impact may change. I think the oil fills in any micro-blemishes on the BB. Hornady Black Diamond gave the best results, but all tried showed improvement.
I tried a group (pattern) with a current 105-B, with no appreciable change.
Fido3030
Fido3030
Never tryed with bb’s. But I’m thinking it will help.
And like you said. To much is probably not good.
Fido3030,
That is a great idea! I wish I would have tried it with the 499, before I tore it down. The oil trick with the sleeved barrel might have been quite the combo. The oil would act as a bit of a seal and help reduce air blow by. That would really benefit a tight fitting barrel like the 499 is known for. The Red Ryder will be it for a few. It could definitely use some help in the accuracy department.