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Education / Training › Hatsan 125TH air rifle combo: Part 1

Hatsan 125TH air rifle combo: Part 1

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by B.B. Pelletier


Hatsan’s new 125TH breakbarrel is a large, powerful spring-piston air rifle.

Today, we’ll begin our look at the first of what I hope will be many new Hatsan air rifles. The Hatsan 125TH air rifle is a powerful breakbarrel spring-piston gun with a black synthetic stock. The advertised velocity for this large .177 Turkish rifle is 1,250 f.p.s. A month ago, I would have decried that kind of velocity, but the results of the Pellet velocity versus accuracy test showed us that velocity, by itself, is not what causes inaccuracy. It is the harmonics of the gun that cause inaccuracy, and they can be moderated or “tuned,” if you prefer, by selecting the right pellet.

This is a combo package, so I’m not only testing the rifle but also the 3-9×32 Optima scope that came with it. This scope dopes not have parallax adjustments; but if you’re consistent in placing your sighting eye at the same place in relation to the scope’s eyepiece every time (your “spot weld”), you can eliminate any parallax error that tries to creep in. The scope mounts that come already attached to the scope are two-piece high rings (aluminum) with two-screw ring caps.

Quattro trigger
When I was in the Hatsan booth at the 2012 SHOT Show, I saw all their new models. There was no opportunity to try any of them, so I’m looking forward to putting this pellet rifle through its paces. Hatsan is advertising two features that I’m especially interested in. One is the Quattro trigger. I was told by the president of Hatsan U.S.A. that the Quattro is a match-grade trigger. I told him I would reserve judgement, but he assured me that it is extremely adjustable.


The Quattro trigger has three adjustments. It’ll be interesting to see how well it can be adjusted.

The reason I’m skeptical of the trigger is the physical difficulty encountered by a trigger on a spring-piston gun that has to restrain well over 100 lbs. of mainspring force (probably more like 160 lbs. in this case) and yet break cleanly and crisply. The Rekord can do it, but that design is a multi-lever trigger that’s more famous than many entire airguns! If Hatsan has been able to design another trigger that’s just as good, it’s earth-shattering news.

I’m giving lots of leeway to the “match-grade” trigger comment…a real match-grade trigger releases in ounces, as we’ve seen from testing numerous vintage 10-meter guns. I won’t be looking for that level of performance on this gun. But I will hold the Quattro trigger up to the Rekord, which, on a Beeman R1 rifle of similar power, can be adjusted to a crisp release weight of 1 lb. and still be quite safe.

I couldn’t resist a couple test shots, but they didn’t reveal much. The trigger is reasonably crisp as it comes from the box and not too heavy, either. There’s a small amount of creep in the second stage. I’ll have to try adjusting it for the next report. To do that, I’ll read the owner’s manual, which I must say is very nice. It has clear instructions on adjusting the Quattro trigger and should be a great help when I do it. The adjustments, by the way, are for the length of the first stage pull, the length of the second stage pull and the second stage pull weight.

It isn’t up to Rekord trigger performance right now, but it also isn’t a bad trigger. It’s probably the equal of the Diana T06 trigger at the present time. I’ve fired the rifle only a few times as I write this. With the right adjustments, I hope this will turn out to be a great trigger.

My friend Mac had observed that the trigger looked like it came up, rather than straight back. Of course, he was limited by not being able to shoot the gun, just as I was. In fact, the trigger does come up, but the angle of the blade makes it slide through your finger so it feels like it’s going straight back. Some airguns do feel funny this way, but the trigger on this Hatsan feels quite normal.

The safety is automatic, and the button is located at the back of the spring tube — convenient for release by your thumb. Unlike most other airguns and firearms you pull the safety button back to release it. The norm would be to push it forward.


The safety engages automatically when the rifle is cocked. But to release it, you pull the button back, rather than pushing it forward.

SAS
The other feature Hatsan is touting for this new line of airguns is their Shock Absorbing System (SAS), which is supposed to isolate the shooter from the vibrations of the powerplant. As I understand it, it’s one or more rubber bushings between the action and the stock. At this point, I have fired the gun only a few times, but it does vibrate some — as I would expect from an untuned rifle of this power. The vibration isn’t that bad, though. It certainly doesn’t give you a headache or sting your cheek when the gun fires, so the SAS is probably doing its thing.

This illustration shows how the SAS works. The stock is held to the action by a strong bolt that passes through a rubber bushing.


This is the actual cocking link. You can see how it wraps around the stock bushing.


Looking straight up into the stock slot, you can see the rubber bushing that the stock bolt passes through. It’s contained in a steel housing.

The stock
The stock is for right-handed shooters only, as the sculpted cheekpiece does not roll over to the other side. This is a thumbhole design, and it has to be shot that way — there’s no provision in the shape of the stock to shoot the rifle any other way.

The pull on the rifle as it came from the box is 13.25 inches, but there are three spacers that came with the rifle to lengthen this pull. The owner’s manual doesn’t address them at all, and the Phillips-head wood screws that hold the rubber pad on the rifle are buried so deep inside the pad that you’ll have to find them by feel, alone. I added all three spacers and now the rifle’s pull is a more comfortable 14 inches.


The buttpad can be moved back with one to three spacers that come with the rifle. With all three spacers installed, the pull is 14 inches.

The synthetic stock material is rough to the touch, but it feels good when the rifle is held. The stock profile or cross-section is large at all points of contact except for the thumbhole, where it fits me surprisingly well.

The rifle weighs just one or two ounces under 10 lbs., even, with no scope mounted. Overall length is 47.4 inches, so this is a very large air rifle. Your Winchester model 70 will feel like a carbine in comparison, unless it’s an African model. The barrel is 19.6 inches long, and you’ll be glad that it is when you cock this powerhouse…it’s like bending the bow of Hercules. You need one of Archimedes’ really long levers to cock this one! I’m guessing the effort will exceed 50 lbs., but I’ll measure it for you in Part 2.

Sights
The rifle comes with a nice set of open sights, even though it’s a combo that includes a scope. The front sight is fiberoptic and the tube is exposed, which could lead to damage. This is where a metal hood would be appropriate.


Front sight contains a fiberoptic tube that’s exposed to damage. A hood would be good here.

The rear sight, which is also fiberoptic, is a nice, adjustable open sight with click detents on both adjustment knobs. The windage knob detents are mushy and vague, but the vertical detents are crisp. There’s a scale on the windage adjustment and reference numbers on the elevation knob.


The rear sight looks like a good unit. I plan to try it in this report.

I like the open sights on this rifle enough to conduct a separate accuracy test with them. So, there will be at least four parts to this report.

There’s also a scope rail on top of the spring tube. And this is perhaps where Hatsan shows its capability, along with the Quattro trigger and the SAS. When Hatsan made Webley spring rifles, they had a two-dimensioned scope rail that appeared to be sized for both 11mm and Weaver dovetails, but the base was very crude and the cross-slots weren’t even the same size. They looked like someone from summer camp had filed them by hand. I criticized them at the time; but upon reflection, perhaps Hatsan was only doing what Webley paid them to do. The scope rail on this 125TH is correctly proportioned and well-finished. Maybe Hatsan did the right thing by coming to the U.S. under their own name!

Notice in the picture that there are two vertical holes for scope stop pins, as well as a flat metal plate. There’s also a threaded hole forward of the metal plate if the shooter desires to reposition it. This gives great flexibility for positioning your scope mounts.


The scope rail gives you the option of using either Weaver or 11mm scope mounts. It looks very nice. Note that there’s a flat scope stop plate for the 11mm dovetail grooves and two vertical holes for scope stop pins. You can also reposition the flat metal plate forward by using other threaded hole.

So far
I’m impressed. After seeing the Webley Hatsans, I didn’t think too much of their airgun designs, but this 125TH looks like it could turn out nice. To do that, the rifle has to be accurate. We can only hope.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.
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134 thoughts on “Hatsan 125TH air rifle combo: Part 1”

  1. A few comments:

    A. Why can’t this much power be applied to a .22 cal (or larger)? Why did Hatsan, like so many others opt for .177?

    B. I love thumb-hole stocks. This, coupled with the spacers for length-of-pull adjustability can make this a nice handling rifle for different positions. For instance, I prefer a short length-of-pull with a thumb-hole stock when shooting in the offhand or kneeling position. Gives you a better center-of-gravity. On the other hand, the longer length-of-pull is nicer for prone shooting.

    C. I hope the trigger is good. How light can it go? I hope Hatsan isn’t trying to redefine “Match Grade”.

    D. The rear open sight does look a bit different from those that I’ve seen my my Gamo’s and Crosmans. How solid is it? I’ve noticed that lots of open sights have a certain amount of lateral play. That’s why I don’t trust them as much as scopes. However, on a high quality gun, I much prefer iron sights.

    E. I’m afraid that this much power will limit the level of accuracy obtainable when by a .177 caliber (regardless of tuning). Is there (or will there be) a .22 caliber version of this rifle?

    As with almost all rifles, the worthiness of this rifle to most of our collections will be determined by accuracy. I hope that the airgun manufacturers are reading this report, and realizing that we want VALUE ADDED products at a reasonable price, and not just an ocean of so-so products that cloud the market.

    Victor

    • Victor, the Hatsan online catalog indicates the 125TH come in .177, .22 and .25 calibers with muzzle velocities of 1250, 1000 and 750 fps respectively. I know there is more to life than FPS but these are the spec from the catalog.

      Ken

    • Victor, I did a quick Google search for Hatsan 125 accuracy and got a hit on a well know airgun forum. The initial poster spoke of having lousy groups until he tried the artillery hold, after which he was pleased. Responders spoke of the hold sensitivity and how much it helps but they seemed to not be speaking about the Hatsan 125. Based on this limited information I suspect the Hatsan will be much like the Trail XL rifles, they can be accurate but hold is everything.

      I am going to lay down for an hour now. Fortunately, my driver (who is also my wife, boss, nurse, etc.) has been getting some sleep for a while.

      I’ll see you on the flip side,
      Ken

      • Ken,

        It is almost a given that this rifle will be super-sensitive, given the power level. And it’s a breakbarrel on top of that — the most hold-sensitive design of all!

        I fully expect this rifle to need lots of holding care, which I’m prepared to give. But at some point, it must perform.

        B.B.

        • Sensitivity goes up with power, eh? I didn’t know that was the case since my B30 is quite a bit less sensitive than the IZH 61. But maybe the connection between power and sensitivity only kicks in if the rifle is also a breakbarrel. One of my dream guns is the RWS 350 magnum which I saw in a YouTube video hitting a coffee can at 100 yards offhand with open sights. Couldn’t have been too sensitive.

          Matt61

      • Kenholmz,

        I have found that others claims of accuracy, one way or another, can be very different from my own personal experienced. For instance, I’ve read lots of reviews that say that the Ruger AirMagnum is very accurate. In my experience, it’s very inaccurate, and there doesn’t seem to be much that I can do about it. I’ve tried at least 4 scopes and as many rings, plus as many different types of pellets. However, I have found all of my other airguns to be extremely accurate, except for my Gamo Silent Cat, which is moderately accurate (i.e., a plinker, at best). Some of my rifles, according to some, are hopelessly inaccurate. Not according to my experience.

        For sure, I’m not as good as B.B. or Mac at testing air-rifles out to 25+ yards, but I can get some VERY tight groups at 10 meters, so that’s the distance that I test at. I’ll accept B.B.’s accuracy test as a real-world measure of how well this rifle can perform.

        In any case, I’m finding that so many claims of accuracy are more subjective, than scientific. In other words, for some, hitting a refrigerator while fully penetrating it’s metal siding qualifies as accurate, or a “good shooter” for some. The reviewers just don’t do an adequate job of qualifying what they mean by “accurate”. It will be very interesting to see the complete report of this rifle.

        Victor

        • Victor, I think that subjectivity is one of the first things that we notice when first discovering, B.B.s blog; it has so much less subjectivity. I just found it interesting that this one person was disappointed until he began using the artillery hold and that a couple of people on that blog had told him about it. He used the name which show what Edith mentioned; the name and description are getting a wider audience.

          I have no doubt that you are correct in your assessment and much of what passes for a review says virtually nothing except that the gun either shot or it didn’t.

          Ken

      • I have the Walther Talon Magnum with Nitro piston which is the same gun as far as the Hatsan 125 except for the stock. It is much less hold sensitive than the Benjamin Trail XL. My Walther Talon Magnum has the same trigger as the Hatsan 125 which is not even close to being a match grade trigger. It’s actually a pleasure to shoot compared to the Benjamin Trail XL. Just wish I could pull the trigger from the trail xl (GRT-II) and put it in the Walther AKA Hatsan.

        • Michael,

          That is very interesting. It’s nice that you Walther Talon Magnum shoots well. Because I have never shot with a match grade trigger, a Quattro trigger or a GDT trigger I must pay attention to what you and other write about them.

          You mention that your WTM is the same as the Hatsan 125 except for the stock. Looking at the WTM on the PA website, it looks a lot like the Hatsan 125. The is the “125” and the “125 TH” I have the PDF of the Hatsan 2011 catalog that I use as a reference.

          Ken

          • I called the Benjamin Trail XL .22 a beast when I first picked it up and it is. The WTM is very close it is actually about a 1/2 inch longer than the Benji and that is with none of the extra spacers supplied(3) with the rifle installed on the butt end. I tend to alternate back and forth between the two rifles. Now keep in mind the trail has the Charliedatuna trigger upgrade and the WTM has just an average airgun trigger AKA detuned Quatro “MATCH GRADE TRIGGER” identical to the Hatsan 125. If the Benjamin was that great why would I reach for the WTM? It shoots really nice that’s why. I certainly wish Air Venturi would offer the Nitro Piston upgrade through Pyramyd AIR on the Hatsan’s. It was funny I asked Pyramyd AIR about putting a nitro piston on a Benjamin Superstreak and they said no. Now keep in mind the only difference is the nitro piston between the Benjamin Super Streak and The Benjamin Trail XL every other part is Identical.

            • Michael,

              Maybe there’s something specific about the Super Streak that is NOT identical to the Trail XL. The smallest difference prevents the insertion of the Nitro Piston. Besides, the Super Streak is no longer made. Therefore, they’re not going to buy a gun no longer made so they can practice inserting the gas spring when there’s no indication that there’s a demand for it.

              Edith

        • Michael, could you tell me what size groups you are getting and with what pellets, also what cal. it is, as i just received a Walther falcon hunter in .22 with the nitro piston upgrade from PA, has great power, cocks smooth, smooth trigger, just wont group well with 8 types of h&n pellets or crossman premiers, best group is 2.75″ @ 25 yds, i changed the scope and got the same results with any hold off the bag or steady rest, for hunting i need something with a quarter size group @ 100′ with good power. thanks for your time. Glenn.

          • Glenn,

            Thanks for coming over to the blog with this question. I assume you are the same person Erika told me about?

            This is an older blog that fewer people will see, so I am going to post your question on today’s blog. We don’t worry about staying on topic here. You can ask anything any time.

            I will start the answering process below your question on the new blog, but I bet you hear from a bunch of other shooters, as well.

            Like I promised you, we will stick with you until you are satisfied that everything possible has been examined. I can’t promise that we’ll get your rifle fixed, but I bet we can do better than the groups you have shot thus far.

            B.B.

    • Victor,

      I share your concerns about this rifle. While it might seem like a terrible mistake to make this in .177, you have to remember that the buying public doesn’t recognize all the intricacies and nuances that dedicated airgunners do. Hatsan did exactly the right thing by making this a .177. But they will learn that there are enough people who also want it in .22 and perhaps even in .25 that it is worth it to build them in those calibers in the future.

      As for all your questions, I know that you know that I will get to them as I test the rifle. And no, I will not cut Hatsan any slack on the trigger. It will have to rival a Rekord for me to agree with their “match trigger” pronouncement. But stranger things have happened, so we’ll just have to let the test decide it.

      Concerning the rear sight, I know exactly what you mean about them being a little loose. So just now I have looked at the one on the test rifle for you. It is 100 percent rock-solid in every way! But the proof will be in the shooting, as you have said.

      B.B.

      • B.B.,

        A good trigger certainly does help position a rifle in this price point as “value added”. I’ve had to replace the triggers on all of my Gamo’s and Crosman’s, except for my Marauder. I think that’s a bit of shame. If the accuracy is there, then this rifle will definitely earn a place in the winners category. So many of us are building a short-list of rifles that we may consider buying. A common wish, I think, is that we get our money’s worth.

        Victor

    • Of course they’re trying to redefine “match grade.” I suspect that “match grade” will come to mean 2-stage trigger with adjustable pull weight and maybe adjustable first stage length. Hopefully it will also come to mean breaking cleanly.

      It’s some kind of new word to say “quality.” So if you can combine velocity (main retail figure of merit) with “match-grade trigger,” the sales people have a lot to push. Just maybe they’ll get it right and provide a good trigger.

      • Pete,

        I am suspicious of labels. I see ads for computer mother boards and some other products that sat “military grade”. I am suspicious of anything described as “world class”. I think they are in the same category as “Deluxe”. So “quality” and “match grade” also fail to tell me much. I suspect serious match competitors have an idea of “match grade” that may differ from that of someone else.

        Generally, I think B.B.s blog is like the Consumer Reports of Airguns (maybe a cut above the original).

        Ken

          • Chuck,

            We kid about government misspending all the time, but the truth is, a military-grade item is infinitely better than most of what is on the civilian market.

            Just ask Edith. She used to work for a job shop that won the contract to re-upholster the seats for the C5-B upgrade. There were only 75 of those planes in the world at the time. She noticed one day that the company wasn’t putting the correct number of stitches in the fabric and she mentioned it to the owner of the company. He shrugged it off and told her that nobody would notice.

            Sure enough, the government inspector found it and rejected the entire lot. They had to remake all the seats and it halted the entire airplane upgrade program for a time.

            And all you have to do is compare any older military rifle to a civilian model of the same timeframe to see the military gun is made stronger. It isn’t as true today, as modern manufacturing processes have brought civilian components up to Mil Spec. Or perhaps Mil Spec today has fallen off from what it once was.

            B.B.

            • Yes, and that company (I was the business manager) got “repossessed” by the IRS for not paying their employee tax withholdings. I later found out that my hiring was not to be business manager but to be a flunky who could hold off the impossible demands of gov’t contractors and the IRS for wanting the money the company withheld from their employees’ paychecks. Well, I lost my job the day the IRS took over the property. It was actually a godsend. I hated working there.

              Edith

            • B.B.,

              I don’t doubt a word you say. In this case, however, I don’t think the military would be using these low end motherboards on anything but a very low end project. As with “world class” I think it is someone trying to use words with positive connotations to purchase something that doesn’t meet the standard.

              Ken

  2. It is my pleasure to write this first response as I prepare to head for the hospital in a few hours. It is 23:51 hours here in Central Standard Time so I am having a drink of water and going NPO.

    It is good to see a review and test of a Hatsan airgun. As I have mentioned before I have a Daisy Powerline 1000 (a.k.a. Hatsan 70) air rifle apparently manufactured in July of 2004, and I purchased it not long after. This model 125TH has some very noticeable similarities and some definite differences.

    I can’t tell for sure but it looks like the 125TH has a two piece articulated cocking link whereas the Model 70 has a single piece cocking link. The open sights are similar but not quite the same as the Model 70 (which does have a hood covering the front sight).

    I expect the power plant in the 125TH has more umph than than the old Model 70 (which also lacks the Quattro trigger and the SAS. I wonder what vibration would have felt like without the SAS (probably significant, but I can’t be sure of course. The old Model 70 lacks the cross slots but does employ the same scope stop pin set up. The scope stop can be anchored with one of two threaded holes set about one inch apart. Also, the scope stop plate has its hole drilled off center and it can be turned 180 degrees to change the position of the scope stop by a bit for find tuning. The old Model 70 does have an adjustable trigger, but I confess I don’t know enough to be sure how adjustable it is or when it may become dangerous so I have only adjusted it a little. I haven’t been good at feeling the first and second stages of the triggers on the old Model 70 or on the Titan (although the Titan trigger adjusted nicely for me). The old Model 70 has no muzzle break and, of course, it does not have a thumb hole stock. I do wonder about the accuracy of the 125TH. This old Model 70 is more accurate than I am.

    I shot all three of my air rifles today (yesterday, now). I wasn’t doing well in my kneeling position so I decided to look for some kind of tripod just to rest the rifle on. I thought to use my wife’s camera tripod but I knew she wouldn’t be too keen on that. The answer came in the form of the tripod stands that are used for funerals (to hang flowers and wreaths on). They has a U shaped hook that worked well enough for today’s adventure. Although I will someday need to adjust the windage I was pleased with the open sights at 20 yards.

    On the Crosman 3100 (which I can allow no one else to ever play with due to the recall I missed regarding the safety) there is no scope stop. I naively thought that because the rifle is of such low power it wouldn’t matter. I learned better today. When I couldn’t get synced with the scope I looked and found that the rear mount was completely out of touch with the dovetail (something to concern myself with later on).

    I was pleased with the Titan. I don’t mean to bore you good people. I won’t be shooting these again for at least several months (read possibly a full year) and I won’t even be lifting an air rifle for at least several months (or as PeteZ said, having someone help me put the gun on a rest).

    I don’t need to sleep because my driver is getting some rest so I can do what I choose for now.

    Going back in time, I don’t remember anyone in the old neighborhood having a pellet gun, but B.B. guns were plentiful. We moved across town soon after I turned 15 in 1965 and I don’t remember airguns being in prominence in the new neighborhood. It may be a false memory but I do remember having a B.B. gun with a plastic stock. I remember more than one of these and I remember the stocks breaking or wearing near their anchor point. They would rotate around the bolt that held them to the rest of the gun. Alas, we just had to buck up and secure the stocks anyway we could.

    I wouldn’t pick up an airgun again until August of 1976, although I did shoot some powder guns. In ’76 I was in a proprietary shop in San Antonio. The owner sold archery equipment and air guns. He was talking to another customer and telling him the reasons the Sheridan .20 caliber air rifle was much better than any of the .22 caliber rifles. I am sure he has other pump pneumatics but I don’t know if he had any springers. He may have, I remember either Robert Law or Robert Beeman (or both) touting the .177 over the available .22 air rifles of the time. I remember the photographs showing that the .177 expanded more than the .22 when hitting small game. I suppose it all depends on a few factors that can be manipulated. I am not impugning either of the Roberts; I just don’t know what all of the factors were. At any rate, I was convinced and bought a Sheridan before I left the store. I have never regretted that purchase even with all I know now.

    In the winter of 1977 I bought my first springer pellet rifle, a break barrel El Gamo (the same company whose airguns became just Gamo later) that was rated at 600 FPS. I had my facts and I had my ballistic putty. I found it did shoot about 600 FPS and the Sheridan shot at somewhat less. Whether my findings were correct can’t be confirmed or denied at this point. The break barrel had the leather piston seal. The first thing I did was ask if there was a better spring for the El Gamo. I purchased a nice spring from Robert Law. I don’t think the FPS changed much but the new spring was of a higher quality. Even back then I was interested in kinetic energy and with the information I had I did calculate at least the muzzle energy I had at my disposal. Unless I find some papers I wrote on I will never know what I came up with; I just don’t remember.

    I enjoyed reading the writings of both Roberts back then. They were the main two authors although I occasionally found something by someone else. The Moly-B I could get back then came in a low viscosity oil. I actually was taken with the smoke that accompanied every shot. I did replace the leather piston seal and I did learn a little about using silicon oil (a subject that has been written about since then). I wasn’t as pleased with the El Gamo as I was with my Sheridan and I sold it to a boy in the neighborhood (well, there were six houses in what I am calling the neighborhood, all occupied by families with someone assigned to Ft. Campbell. Cobra helicopter pilots seemed to enjoy practicing pretend strafing because the houses were strung out in a row. They used to come in at a fairly high rate of speed. Past us they had a distance of open field to cushion them from complaints. They weren’t supposed to do the strafing run but none of us minded very much. Now I would think more about what it would be like to have one of them hit a house at that speed…OUCH!

    I shot the Sheridan intermittently through the years. I don’t remember buying the Crosman 3100 but I’m sure I did. I know it was I who took the open sights off, including the front sight. I have no idea what happened to the sights. I know I bought the Daisy/Hatsan in 2004. I shot it and the 3100 sporadically. It is difficult for me to explain my Titan purchase. It was something that built up in me over a few months. I was interested in getting a .22 caliber air rifle and I was interested in the gas technology. The deciding factor was seeing a vulture that has a right wing that has been lost either to a vehicle or a bullet. It was trying to get over a fence but it couldn’t. I thought to capture it but I couldn’t get close enough to it. We were going to the local fair and my wife wanted to “let nature take its course”. I was seriously bothered by this all afternoon. When we got home there was no sign of the bird. I went on foot in search of it but found nothing. I bought the Titan a few days later.

    I started doing my consumer research after I made the purchase. I hadn’t used the Internet to research or read about airguns, but my initial experience was interesting. All I wanted to know was something about the Titan. All I found initially was confusion and misinformation. Eventually I was able to sort things out. I suspect a Trail might be somewhat better, disregarding the barrel shroud, sling,better scope and weaver style scope mount. I’m not sure. It may be that the Titan is much like the Trail minus those four things. Of the four, it is the scope mount that I miss the most so far. The Daisy/Hatsan could be used to euthanize an animal like that vulture. I would prefer to use the Titan but I don’t know how much difference it makes.

    If I have been fairly pleased with my airgun experience, it is in large part due to luck and my expectations, which may have been influenced by the writings of the two Roberts. Somewhere, in a box, I know I still have some of the old writings. While I recover from surgery I may be able to find some of them. There are airguns that are more refined than those I have. I may yet have one or two of them. I wonder if I can get the neurosurgeon to write a prescription for one of them?

    I’ll see all of you on the other side.

    Until then,
    Ken

    • Ken,

      You will read this after your procedure. Right now you have to be “mommy’s brave little soldier” and not complain, even when it hurts a little. And despite what all patients say, just about everything they do before giving you the sleeping shot does hurt just a little. Even the shot hurts, but you fall asleep so fast that it’s not that bad.

      On the other side you wake up relieved to be back, and then assess the situation. Physically you are set back a long way. There is a lot of recovery before you will be back to where you were when you went into the hospital this morning.

      But a time will come when you do feel better than before, and that time is what this is all about.

      So take your rest, take all the pain meds you need and catch up on all the boring courtroom programs on daytime TV — or the endless poker tournaments at night, if you can’t sleep.

      One day soon this will all be a memory, and you’ll be better for it.

      We are praying for you as your surgeon works,

      Tom Gaylord

      • Thanks, B.B.,

        I will work at being that “good little soldier”. I mostly okay going through the paces before they put me under. The last think I remember is that the anesthesiologists were telling me they would tell me what they were going to do at each step. I replied that soon they could tell me but I would not hear. Sure enough, as they started rolling the bed they also pushed that first sedative. I was out in seconds it seems. Interestingly, when I came to I wasn’t disoriented at all.

        Now is when I must take it slowly and not injure myself. Now is when I must not complain. I am pleased that, even over the airwaves here in the Houston area, I have stations that carry some oldies. Perry Mason, Peter Gunn, Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, Bat Masterson, and a host of others. There are a couple of stations that show a lot of movies. One is something like FX and the other is into the old blacksploitation movies. Judge Wopner was the most interesting of the bunch and I’ll only watch people playing poker if I want to be bored out of my mind.

        Thank you,
        Ken

    • Good luck, kenholmz and don’t go trying to blog in the middle of the procedure. Being laid up has its drawbacks but some advantages too. I think I got that impression from some good hospital stays when I was very young. Just think, you have no obligations and responsibilities. You can just sit around all day and think.

      Matt61

      • Matt,

        I had to forgo blogging during surgery. I did bring a laptop just in case I was admitted to the hospital for some reason. I would have been looking for an open WiFi router.
        I’ll be alright for a while. I really like my job and so I look forward to getting back. However, this is legitimate and as I get better I may be able to go do some things I don’t usually get to.

        But right now I couldn’t even use that self cocking crossbow.

        Ken

    • Use the morphine pump if they give you one. Gives you back control over your own fate!

      It matters; I will use mine. For certain!

      You heal faster when pain can be minimized.

      Pete4

      • Pete,

        I have hydrocodon and a muscle relaxer for now. I expect pain but so far it hasn’t been a problem. I still anticipate that I will hurt at some point. We’ll see.

        Ken

    • There are a couple of other triggers out there – the AR1000 series and the BAM B20/B26 come to mind – that are copies of excellent designs but let down by mediocre manufacturing or some other compromise. The good news is that they are not terribly difficult to set right.

    • Mel,

      You said it right when you said it all comes down to the build quality. This trigger looks NOTHING like an Air Arms trigger from the outside. It was a real eye-opener to see that cutaway you linked to.

      Air Arms did use the Rekord as a design to start from, but their trigger incorporates finer adjustments. A TX 200 trigger can be adjusted finer than a Rekord.

      On the other hand, BAM, who copied the Air Arms trigger when they built the B40 (a TX 200 copy) never did get the trigger right. It was too sensitive and too light for safety. And their triggers varied too much from gun to gun. That’s why I am so interested in testing Crosman’s MAV 77, which is the B40 under their name.

      I hope Hatsan did this trigger right. I really do. But I plan on being very critical of it, and I’m going to put the design out of my thoughts. I will approach this trigger as they present it in their owner’s manual. If it works, fine! I will be their biggest cheerleader. If it doesn’t, I will report it. It’s parentage doesn’t concern me at all, since the devil is in the manufacturing details.

      B.B.

  5. The couple of Hatsan’s I’ve had (Daisy Powerline 1000’s) were awful guns to shoot and mechanically unreliable – but very powerful and extremely accurate. I’ll be very curious to see how this one turns out.

      • tt said:

        You mean the one that disintegrates starting at the stock mounting holes while sitting in the gun rack?
        That is exactly what happened to my ‘version 3’ made in 2006. And yes—I AM looking for a wood stock if anyone has a spare! Tom

        • Mine has not fallen apart yet. Have not shot it more than 50 times either.

          Should have thought about it a couple days ago when there was a tree trimming crew working across the street. They had a big chipper that would have tuned it right.

          twotalon

    • Vince,

      I agree about your comment but for one thing. Hatsan may have made those guns, but they made them for Daisy, who was working for Winchester. They made them as cheaply as they could, and that never bodes well for quality.

      Then came the “Webley” Hatsans. I put the quotes around the Webley name because the company that contracted with Hatsan for those guns was not the same company that made the fine Webley air rifles in the United Kingdom. It was an investment company who knew nothing about airguns. I met and talked to their managing director, and he was clueless about the world of airguns.

      So once again, Hatsan did what they were told to do (and paid for).

      This time they have their own name on the guns, so now it’s their turn in the sun. It’s a similar situation to the Checker Marathon that had a Chevy drivetrain. they were lucky that when they were buying from Chevy, Chevy was making good drivetrains. I’d hate to see what they would get today!

      I want to give Hatsan every opportunity to show their stuff apart from the other airgun companies who buy from them. Let’s see if they really know how to make airguns.

      B.B.

  6. B.B.

    Do you know if the velocity rating for this one was based on the pot metal nerf pellets ?

    An idea for a blog…
    A velocity test with one of the megamagnums with PBA pellets. Test with dry pellets, then test with a drop of various liquids in the base of each pellet. Suggestions…. lighter fluid, 3-in1 oil, kerosene, gasoline. Fire it from a gun vise and with a long pull cord on the trigger.

    twotalon

    • Someone posted about something like this yesterday on the Canadian Airgun Forum!
      He noticed that the small 8 caps ring sold for kids measure exactly .177 apparently, he puts on in front of the pellet for a small bang on impact and/or another one behind for a bang on firing and a small muzzle flash, he also warn about dirtying the barrel of the gun because of that… not sure I would try it myself but to each his own, there also some tutorials on youtube to make tracer, incendiary, armour piercing, explosive and frag pellets.

      Could a destructive test be done? Not with the Hatsan but a well used, easily available rifle. Showing what not to do and the result of the carnage and destruction resulting of such a use.

      J-F

      • I would never do that with one of my airguns unless I already intended on sending it to the landfill in the first place. Come to think of it, I do have some that may make it to the landfill anyway.

        twotalon

      • J-F,

        I have already done a destructive test for this. Not the one you are thinking of, but the gun was destroyed, nonetheless.

        Read about guns that use caps to fire BBs here:

        /blog/2005/10/another-12-caliber-airgun/

        Caps are corrosive and will ruin an airgun. You’ll see evidence of that in the article. That’s what I meant by destructive.

        B.B.

        • Hey I remember that post! I’m always suprised to see how I’ve been here. Time goes by fast when you’re having fun!

          But I was thinking more about what some people do like over oiling or putting a drop of oil in the pellet skirt to make it diesel, dry firing, bending the barrel by shooting the gun while the barrel is open and using a grass trimmer line with a patch to clean the barrel showing the kind of damage the plastic line will do to the steel barrel.
          Showing what some other proclaimed “miracle” idea might do to a rifle.

          J-F

          • I have some fishing rods that have some serious damage to the guides from mono. When you crank the drag down good and get a big pike to really turn on the power, the guides get torn up fast.

            twotalon

            • TT,

              I keep saying this but nobody listens. Monofiliment is used to carve jade! When impregnated with diamond dust. mono will cut through a steel bar.

              Mono attracts and hold abrasives well and then acts like a cutting saw. that’s why it should never be used for cleaning rifle barrels.

              B.B.

              • B.B.

                It can be nasty stuff. I have seen tip guides that were cut clear through.
                I don’t know how well ceramic guides will hande it. My heavy fresh water rods all had plain guides. Roller guides only?

                But our barrels are not that hard.

                twotalon

                • twotalon,

                  Ceramic guides last much longer. I haven’t fished with a rod that had metal guides for probably 20 years. I haven’t used monofilament line (except for leaders) for over 10 years.

                  For casting I know use the stren super braids. These are graphite coated and proven to be harder on guides that monofilament. I haven’t had a problem with wear on the ceramic guides but I replace the line annually.

                  Not all ceramic guides are created equally. The quality of the ceramic isn’t as important as how the manufacturer bonds the ceramic to the inside of the guide. I use Loomis rods for this reason.

                  kevin

                  • Kev…

                    I seldom fish anymore. Used to do it all the time in Upper Mich.

                    Been cut by Dacron. Something like a hacksaw blade. Have not been cut by Spider Wire yet, but think I might not want to be.

                    Bought a lot of Shimano rods and reels when I was on Okinawa. Have not used them all that much. Fishing sucks around here, and you don’t want to eat them either. Some places in the “Upper” were seriously bad if you wanted to eat the fish. Some of them grew extra fins and heads. You could hang them on the wall in a vertical position and calibrate them to show the temperature…as the mercury rose and fell.

                    twotalon

                    • twotalon,

                      I’m a big fan of shimano reels. I only fish with the shimano stella reels. Sorry to hear about the mercury levels in your fish. Wouldn’t matter to me since I rarely eat the things. They taste like fish to me. Like to catch them though.

                      kevin

              • People who read this blog know but some people still promote it on forums.

                It could be an airgun mythbuster blog 😉 leaving some seals in detergent and non-detergent motor oil to settle that other argument.

                Maybe PA has some stuff that’s been returned or damaged and that can’t be used or that could be destroyed.

                A nice “if you do that, this will be the result, I did it so you don’t have to” like the pic of the guy who blew up his PCP using oxygen (I still wonder how he think of doing something like that, if he had easy acces to the gas he’s supposed to know it’s potential dangers no? I mean if it can be used to weld or cut thru metal maybe it’s better to use it with care).

                J-F

                • J-F,

                  With oxygen in an airgun the person always works at a hospital or health care facility where there are an abundance of filled tanks. They are supposed to be trained on the dangers of oxygen, but until you actually see what can happen a lot of them don’t pay it no nevermind.

                  Keep talking, there might be a blog here. But I’m not set up like the Mythbusters to test things to destruction — apart from the stupidents I occasionally have.

                  B.B.

      • When using powder burners anyone ever try putting gun powder in a hollow point with a primer on top. Only do it with bolt, revolvers and single shot break actions. You would not want that primer to hit a feed ramp. The bullets just um well kinda explode when they hit a bone. I have never tried it because there are Federal Laws in place to prevent this crazy idea. Nothing like exploding bullets. Wait did I mention don’t do this at home.

  7. BB,

    Wow, big gun. Can’t imagine pulling one of these out around the house without feeling like the Joker with that 40″ pistol! This should be interesting though, just the fact that Hatsan is making guns for themselves. Hope to see some good quality out of this one.

    TT, Stocks don’t get any uglier than “Pelosi ugly”! Let’s hope Hatsan’s claims with the trigger and velocity don’t turn out to be Obama accurate either!

    ka

  8. I’m dense. I don’t understand how the SAS (Shock Absorber System) can “isolate the shooter from the vibrations of the powerplant”.

    If I’m understanding the SAS it’s a bolt that is inside a rubber bushing that is inside a metal sleeve and is secured while passing through the stock side to side? Isn’t the rear of the action also secured by a screw and/or a bolt through the trigger housing? Do the trigger guard screws/bolts also pass through a rubber bushing? If the action is secured at one location how is vibration mitigated?

    Maybe I’m missing something since the fifth picture shows a bend in the cocking arm that exists to wrap around the bushing but the side screw appears too far to the right for the cocking arm to bend around.

    kevin

  9. Odd how it looks identical in every way to the Walther Talon Magnum with Nitro Piston. Oh that’s right because they are one in the same except for the stock. My Walther Talon Magnum with Nitro Piston has the same trigger but is not adjustable at least the first two cap screws are not. Many have suggested replacing them with a headless screw with just a slot for adjustment then it would function like the Quattro trigger. Out of the box it does not have a “Match Grade Trigger”. Hopefully a charliedatuna trigger will fix all of the problem if he or someone makes one. What were they thinking as far as the automatic safety? It has to be disengaged every time you break and load the rifle. I have found that the Walther Talon Magnum with Nitro Piston is a very good alternative to the Benjamin Trail XL in .22. Only weak point would be that “Match Grade Trigger”.

  10. Kevin…

    New thread because the other was getting thin…

    I don’t have any of the newer Shimano stuff.
    This was back from the years of the “Fightin’ Rod”. I have bait casters…one that is two speed. Several open face. Two open face are “Bait Runners”. Those are interesting. Two drags. Love them for some kinds of fishing. Have light to mediums and heavies (rods and reels).

    There is all kinds of bad stuff in the water and the fish. I leke to eat some of them, but there just are not enough places to get clean enough fish anymore.

    twotalon

    • twotalon,

      I’m a big fan of the shimano stella’s. Mine get used alot in extreme conditions. No problems. Never could get used to bait casters.

      We’ve worked hard to clean up our waters in Colorado the last 30 years. We still have some work to do. Mostly from water passing through old mine tailings that end up in major tributaries. Where I fish the water is pristine. Unfortunately the fish still taste like fish.

      kevin

      • Kev…

        You just don’t like fish. O.K.
        My favorite is crappie. Do them right and they have more of a shrimp taste. But you probably don’t like shrimp either?

        twotalon

        • twotalon,

          Ate too many fish growing up. We ate everything we caught. I’ll eat them but I don’t crave them. Ever. I like salmon. Yes, crappie filets are good fried. We used to dip them in flour followed by an egg wash then final dip in cornmeal. We fixed walleye the same way. I still like ’em like that. Sometimes.

          Love shrimp. Especially rock shrimp. All shellfish for that matter. Had no idea what crab or lobster was when I was growing up. Caught lots of crawdads as a youngster but never considered eating them. I like them now though. My wife cooks some great cajun style food.

          I’m gonna go eat lunch.

          kevin

          • Kev…

            Never ate crab or lobster. Crawdads either. Have to try crab and lobster some time anyway.
            I used to watch Cajun Cookin’ with Justin Wilson. A lot of the stuff he cooked up sounded mighty good.
            One of his favorite ingredients was louisiana hot sauce. I use that stuff as fast as I use jalapenos.

            twotalon

      • /Dave…

        At least you didn’t say that it would do all that stuff that they advertise on T.V. all the time.
        You know what I’m talkin’ ’bout….makes your…. uh … something bigger and for longer?
        I just figured it out. I know why I have had so many problems….
        In my younger years, iI did not go to a doctor immediately if something lasted longer than 4 hrs.

        twotalon

  12. Some time ago, a comment was made about the new Air Venturi Bronco that comes with the replacement rear sight…a Mendoza micrometer sight. I promised to let you know when Pyramyd AIR made the front sight riser plates available. They’re now live:

    /product/mendoza-front-sight-riser-plate-fits-air-venturi-bronco-air-rifles-1?a=4147

    You’ll need 4 of these ($3.95 apiece) to lift the front sight high enough to work with the replacement rear sight, which is here:

    /product/williams-diopter-sight?a=2003

    If you don’t already own a Bronco, you can buy the gun with the new rear sight (and riser plates already installed under the front sight):

    /product/air-venturi-bronco-target-pro-air-rifle?m=2709

    Just for reference, the original Bronco with standard rear sight is located here:

    /product/air-venturi-bronco-air-rifle?m=2013

    Edith

        • Chuck,

          Looks like the screws are on order & will be here in a few days. I’ve requested that the riser plates be listed as out of stock until the correct screws arrive & can be shipped with the plates.

          Thanks for being on the ball & bringing this up.

          Edith

          • Edith/BB,
            I have another issue with the plates. My Beeman peepsite is right on when set as low as the stock will let it go. So, I only ordered two plates thinking that would give me enough wiggle room. Now I’m concerned that the screws that PA is going to get will be too long for just two plates. I might have to shop for my own screws.
            -Chuck

            • Chuck,

              There should be an email link or phone # on your order confirmation email. If you like, you can use that to ask them to hold the order until we clear up this issue. I haven’t heard back from anyone, and I see that the item is still showing as being in stock.

              There’s also another issue. The image of the product shows only 1 plate. But if they’re ordering screws for this, then that means the item will probably contain 4 plates. Otherwise, they would end up sending a set of long screws for EACH plate ordered! That makes no sense. Since you ordered 2 plates, you may end up getting 8 plates.

              Thanks,
              Edith

              • Edith,
                Yeah, Thanks for all the checking, Edith. I think I’d better call them. I was wondering if $3.95 was a fair price for one little plate. It makes more sense for a set of four plates since most everyone will need four for their Broncos. I might be the exception with the Beeman peep. If it is four, I hope that doesn’t over compensate, or I’ll still be out looking for screws.
                -Chuck

    • Hilarious and just my style. But it must go through the nerfs quickly, and it would be laborious to load up the belt. There’s a gun looking for the right situation, but what would that be?

      Matt61

    • You mean there is TWO kids but only ONE gun… kudos to them! Dad needs one too!
      We make full on wars in our house, we move the furniture around and it’s the boys against the girls.
      Giggles garanteed.

      J-F

  14. B.B.,
    Have you or anyone whose results you trust ever tried to slug and lap an airgun barrel? I’ve used J.B. Paste with great results, but the tinker-er in me wants to take it to the next step. I’m not trying to solve an accuracy problem, just thinking of making good better. I’ve also thought about “fire lapping” with a Crosman Premier/J.B. combo. I know getting paste in the transfer port is bad, and it may detonate if used in a springer. I just can’t stop myself from thinking about it. Could there be any accuracy gain or am I just crazy? It’s ok if you call me crazy, I’ve been called worse!
    -hm

    • Hank,

      What a great idea! I have absolutely no idea what it might do. I know that a muzzleloader from the 1850s would both polish out and also grow in size by as much as a thousandth of an inch. Lapping was how the old barrel makers developed tapered bores. A fellow could read up on that in Ned Robert’s book, “The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle” where he has specific and exact instructions from Billinghurst, I believe. They didn’t have micrometers back then, so they blew a raw bullet through the barrel and noted where it stopped, to gauge the taper.

      B.B.

  15. Interesting about the restrictions that big spring puts on a trigger. I’ve found that the adjustment on the B30 trigger is hard to get exactly right. It’s still a little on the stiff side, but if I go lower, it loses the second stage. But it’s shooting well enough that it doesn’t really matter. Otherwise, I have to admit that I haven’t adjusted the triggers on any of my guns, the Daisy 747, the IZH 61, the Savage 10FP or the Anschutz 1907, so all that adjustability is lost on me. However, by way of warning, I’ll say that my first ever venture into gunsmithing sometime this spring will be to try to install a Huber Concepts Anti-Friction ball trigger into my Mosin sniper rifle. There is a certain amount of mystery whether mine is a genuine sniper rifle or not, so I’m going to hedge my bets and make it a sniper with handloads and an improved trigger. Fortunately, the Mosin trigger is supposed to be about as simple as it can possibly be, so I’m not being overly ambitious. I won’t keep you waiting on your seats longer than I have to….

    Here’s a blog idea. Would a high powered .22 airgun shoot through a laptop like the guy who shot his daughter’s laptop with a .45?

    DaveUK, don’t be too quick to call for the end of Western civilization of the decline of Great Britain. I understand that a few years ago, a retailer of camping equipment in the UK had a sign in the window that said, “Come in the winter of our discount tents.” Ha ha. Shakespeare scholars will roll their eyes, but I think this is brilliant and highly creative.

    /Dave, Justin Bieber was only there to say that he is the silliest stuff ever…unless it’s Beyonce or this other person named Nicki Manaj. Ugh.

    Mike, you identified the rifle, I can’t believe it! I had heard of the Remington 600, but never seen one. I can see why it didn’t last long. But why would the guy carry this particular weapon since apparently, he’s a gun aficionado? One of his camps had 19 guns along with a bunch of survival gear! Where does he get the ammo for this arsenal, much less money to buy them all? There is some mystique to the mountain man idea, and you’ve got to admire a guy who is so self-sufficient. But his behavior of breaking into cabins, shooting them up and defecating in them crosses the line I would say…

    Matt61

    • Matt,

      When I was still in Maryland a group of friends met at the rifle range several times to destroy desktop computers with firearms and airguns. The tube of an old monitor is thick glass that takes a heck of a hit to break. A .22 LR will do it, but I would bet that an air rifle wouldn’t.

      B.B.

    • Matt…take heart.
      We’re Canadian…’eh’.
      My oldest (11) takes guitar lesson, my youngest (8) drums.
      They both hate Beiber (who is Canadian).
      Gwydion (my oldest…it’s a Welsh name) has as his heros the likes of Clapton and Knopfler.
      Callum (my youngest) thinks ‘In The Air Tonight’ (Phil Collins) is the greatest drum solo ever.

  16. It does look to me like they are at least trying to serve the market. I like the LOP adjustment a lot, and the trigger adjustment may turn out to be good, although I actually still like single stage triggers on guns with practical applications. Maybe CPH’s or some other heavy pellet would be a good thing to try in it. .22 would be nice. I really like the related Torpedo 150 (underlever) in .22.

  17. The Hatsen Co. design team at work: “Say let’s make the safety work the exact opposite of almost all the other safety’s on the market.” “What a great idea!”

    Let me know how that works out for you.

    Mike

      • Just a little bit of humor on the safety issue. Perhaps there is a good reason for the design. But, I wouldn’t go there without a very good reason. It will cause problems for some folks if they own other guns that work the “regular” way. If you drive a vehicle with a clutch, then jump into one with an automatic transmission, you will push in a clutch that isn’t there.

        Mike

  18. Look at the picture of the safety. Did you ever wonder why, when a part that has two plastic halves that have ribs, are joined together, they never seem to get the ribs to meet?
    -Chuck

  19. B.B.,

    A couple more things:

    I have a gut feeling that this rifle is going to be a pleasant surprise to us all. On the surface, there’s just too much that I seem to like.

    I wish that the muzzle break on more of these rifles was interchangeable with a front sight that takes various inserts, like apertures. Then a rear aperture could be used for the rear. Just a thought.

    Victor

  20. I’m really liking the aperture sighted Bronco, could very well be my next purchase. Used to have a peep on a pre 64 winchester 30-30 I took on trade from my father in law, loved that setup very quick and accurate, unfortunately I told him he could always get it back if inclined, he did, and I would still be saddened, but I recently inherited my late uncle’s pre 64 that is the same gun I carried when I was a kid, great memories with this rifle and now more to make. Crazy thing is he would give me a box of ammo, his .22 single six with belt and holster and send me off into the woods on adventures, i was 12 at the time!

  21. B.B., I’m very lucky because I grew up around firearms, they were second nature, I still miss my uncle Charles, but his two brothers accompany me to just about every local gun show, It would be a crime for me to pick favorites as they are all responsible for my love of anything that uses projectiles, I love them dearly. Not too sure about the old days, because I’m only 32, but I love the craftsmanship of old guns, especially military service rifles, I am the proud owner of a 1942 Finnish M39, 1942 lithgow SMLE No. 1 Mark III, and the above Winchester. B.B, can you recommend a peep sight for a .22 caliber RWS 350 Magnum that will work with the front sight and not require any modification to gun or sight. A scope really messes up the balance of this rifle, I use it to hunt, but would also like to do some long range work with it too, thanks!

    • I’d like to remind you that this is a PRIVATE website. The Bill of Rights says the GOVERNMENT may not abridge your speech. Private companies can abridge speech all day long!

      We don’t mind people saying they like Hatsan guns. But we do mind it when someone posts a comment to their own comment and pretends that it comes from someone else. That is disingenuous.

  25. Over the past 15 years I have bought and used many air rifles and to date I have not found a better rifle for the money then HATSAN, And for the lowest prices on all airguns and ammo Air Gun Depot can not be beat! I hope I am not breaking any rules buy saying that as I am new to this site.

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