by B.B. Pelletier
Announcement: Guy Roush is this week’s winner of Pyramyd Air’s Big Shot of the Week on their facebook page. He’ll receive a $50 Pyramyd AIR gift card.
Guy’s winning photo. He says it’s a “great gun and very realistic feel!”
Related reports.
Crosman 114 — Part 1
Crosman 114 — Part 2
This report is getting convoluted. I’m reporting a device I found at the 2011 Roanoke Airgun Expo that allows the use of 12-gram CO2 cartridges to fill Crosman bulk-fill guns, but I used the Crosman model 114 rifle that already had two reports from 2009 before it broke and had to be resealed. So, the report is really about how this bulk-fill device operates on a Crosman model 114 rifle, but the performance of the rifle is also being examined.
Confused? Well, I will try to keep it simple from this point. Today, we’ll look at the velocity you can expect from a Crosman 114 when it is filled by this device.
The Crosman 114 is a .22-caliber, single-shot rifle from the early 1950s. The new bulk-fill device allows you to shoot it with minimal additional equipment.
Mike Reames, the inventor of the device, told me the CO2 in a 12-gram cartridge would not transfer entirely to the gun, so I should expect some gas loss when I disconnected it. There was a loss of gas as he said, so one of the things I want to determine is how many shots can be expected when the gun is charged this way.
When the gas and liquid flows into the rifle during charging, the CO2 reservoir cools immediately. That’s caused by the liquid CO2 flashing to gas as it enters the reservoir. When it does, it absorbs some of the heat of its surroundings — in this case, the metal reservoir tube.
One way to maximize the fill is to cool the gun before filling. When the CO2 enters, it encounters cooler surroundings; and when it flashes to gas, the pressure of the gas is lower. Since the CO2 cartridge is warm in comparison, it’ll have higher pressure and will push more gas and liquid into the gun. This is an old bulk-fill trick that I’ll try to see what difference it makes — if any.
Velocity with a regular fill
First, I filled the rifle in the normal fashion (i.e., at room temperature). The first pellet I tried was the Crosman Premier. As I test the gun, you must keep in mind that Rick Willnecker, who resealed it, has a policy that he will only return a vintage airgun to its specified power. While there are other repair stations that will soup up the powerplant, you can expect Rick to repair the gun so it will shoot like it did when it was new.
Crosman Premiers averaged 535 f.p.s. The spread went from 531 to 539 f.p.s., so a tight 8 foot-second spread. I have owned one other 114 that shot the same pellet 15-20 f.p.s. faster, so this is well within the ballpark.
Next, I tried RWS Hobby pellets. They averaged 549 f.p.s., but that number isn’t a good one. Because after only three shots, I could see the power drop in the traditional fall-off that happens after all the CO2 liquid has turned to gas. So, the rifle had come to the end of its useful charge. You can look at it in several ways, depending on what you’re doing with the gun, but there were anywhere from 13 to 20 good shots on a fill. If you were just plinking, that might stretch to 30 shots.
The first three Hobbys went 563, 558 and 558 f.p.s., respectively. The next one dropped to 551, which is still okay; but after that, each successive shot went slower. After shooting the string of 10 Hobbys, I fired a Crosman Premier pellet and got 499 f.p.s., so the rifle is definitely off the power curve.
The fill from a 12-gram cartridge is from 20 to 30 good shots. Compare that to 50-70 good shots that you will get when the gun is filled by a large bulk tank. I’ve always used the 10-oz. Crosman tank, so that’s what I’m using to get this number.
Chill out
It’s time to chill the rifle and check the fill afterward. I placed the rifle in a chest freezer and left it in there for about an hour.
Let me caution you that what I am doing is considered dangerous if you don’t know what you’re doing. I know that the entire contents of a 12-gram CO2 cartridge cannot possibly overfill this rifle’s reservoir; but if I filled the chilled gun from a normal bulk tank, it could easily be overfilled. The consequences of overfilling an airgun like the 114 that has no pressure release device is that if the gun gets too warm, the gas pressure inside can build to the point that the brass reservoir blows apart in a catastrophic failure. That happens because the cold gun accepts too much liquid CO2; and when it warms up, the liquid has nowhere to go. The gun needs space for the liquid to become gas, to relieve the pressure, which is how it normally operates. If you fill at room temperature, the physical properties of CO2 will take care of stopping the fill at the right spot for you; but a chilled gun will continue to accept more liquid than it should.
However, in this case, the quantity of liquid inside a 12-gram cartridge is less than the gun is built to hold, so all that should happen is that more of the liquid goes into the reservoir. The test for that is to see how many good shots we then get from a fill.
After taking the rifle from the freezer, a layer of frost formed on all the metal parts. The fill was far more complete this time, with just a small puff of gas as the device was disconnected. However, the gun was now very cold and would not perform well until it returned to room temperature, so more waiting.
Two hours later, I shot strings with both Premiers and Hobbys. The first string of five Premiers averaged 515 f.p.s., and I thought something had gone wrong. It ranged from 498 to 522 f.p.s. But right after it, I shot the first string of five Hobbys and they averaged 570 f.p.s., which is where they should be. They ranged from 568 to 574 f.p.s. Next was the second string of five Premiers, which averaged 530 f.p.s., so they were now in the ballpark. The range went from 524 to 534 f.p.s. Then a second string of Hobbys averaged 567 f.p.s. with a range from 564 to 571 f.p.s. That’s the first 20 shots from the gun, and all are good except for a couple at the start.
Another string of five Premiers averaged 523 f.p.s., taking the total to 25 good shots on this fill. However, I could see the power tapering off within this string, which ranged from 519 to 528 f.p.s. From that point on, the velocity fell off in a straight line, which indicates the liquid is used up. So, filling this way extracts everything the CO2 cartridge has to give, which is about 25 good shots. If you were just plinking in the yard, there are probably 10 more useful shots in the gun.
The 114 action
When the Crosman 114 was selling new, I was still a kid who knew nothing about genuine bolt-action firearms. If I’d ever seen a 114 back then, I would have thought it was a conventional bolt-action because that’s what it looks like. However, it’s far from conventional.
A bolt-action firearm has lugs to engage the receiver and lock the bolt closed against the thousands of pounds of force the cartridge puts on it. The 114 bolt hasn’t got any lugs. Instead, a single metal stud engages an inclined plane at the rear of the action to push the bolt forward as the handle is turned down. At the front of the bolt, a hemispherical enlargement mates with a socket in the breech. Contact between these two metal surfaces, controlled by how hard the bolt is pushing forward, seals the breech against gas loss.
This 98 Mauser (firearm) bolt has two lugs at the front that pull the bolt forward and lock it to the receiver.
The 114 breech. There’s a lot to see in this picture. First, notice the enlarged bolt face that mates with the breech to seal gas behind the pellet. The pin on the rear of the bolt below the handle fits into a socket with an inclined plane to push the bolt forward tightly. The knurled wheel beneath the bolt is the power adjuster that all these bulk-fill guns have; and note the rear peep sight that I’ll use for the accuracy test.
Trigger
The 114 trigger is single-stage and quite hard in the factory form. That can be altered with careful gunsmithing, but nothing can ever make it a great trigger. The simple design mitigates against it.
The safety is a standard crossblock pin that’s set into the stock. Punch in from the left to put the rifle on safe and from the right for fire. Back in the ’50s, this was a very common type of safety on inexpensive guns.
What’s next?
Now that I know the characteristics of the gun and how many shots I can expect, it’s time to test accuracy. I’ll use the peep sight that came with the rifle for this.
As far as the bulk-fill adapter goes, I have to say that it has fulfilled all expectations. In fact, I’m surprised that it works as well as it does — especially when the gun is cooled first. I don’t know if Pyramyd AIR will ever carry it. If you want one, contact Mike Reames directly.
I love that rear sight. Very simple. Why can’t guns come with a simple peep sight like that?
Flobert,
I agree. Why is it that the major manufacturers are not looking at neat stuff like this?
B.B.
You know how I feel about peep sights on air guns! I’d like to see them offered (at least as an option) on all air-rifles.
Thanks for the link to Mike Reames. I have been wanting to contact him about his pistols. If I ever pick up a bulk fill, this could be a handy gadget to have laying around.
Here is an interesting story.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/23/10yearold-wash-boy-defends-mom-with-bb-gun_n_1109321.html?ref=weird-news&ir=Weird%20News
Too bad his BB gun didn’t have a bayonet.
SL,
Quick thinking on the part of that boy!
Several years ago, I recall a news story about a young boy who foiled robbers who broke into his home. For some inexplicable reason, the young boy (I think he was 5) was home alone, and he simply did some of the stuff he saw in the movie Home Alone. The robbers fled but were later caught.
Edith
Edith
There’s a lot of courage in that boy. I bet mom now thinks that BB gun was the best present she ever bought him. Maybe next year he gets a powder burning rifle. I am dying to know what BB gun he used.
It’s strange, you’d never know from the photo of the perp that he would be a bad guy. 😉
Journalist often call all airguns “BB guns” so it might not have been a BB gun at all…
J-F
Edith,
Story says he used a pump action bb rifle. I’d bet my hat that’s a Daisy Model 25. Are there many other pump-action bb guns are there?
AlanL
AlanL,
Not many. There is the Daisy 107 , the Buck Jones, the 105, the 105 Junior. Those are the principal ones.
B.B.
Naturally, I do a Google search for the BB gun my brother had… And the first link turns out to be one of your articles…
The Daisy 572
(Hmm interesting, you comment that the 25 was harder to cock… Since I was considered the weakling in the family [though a year older than my brother], my father had not intended to get me a BB gun that Christmas… But showed my the 572 bought for my brother. When I demonstrated I could operate it without assistance, he went into panic mode to find a BB gun still in the local stores — coming up with the 25, which gave me no problems at all}
By pump-action they could also mean a multi-pump, although that would take long enough to pump even 3 pumps per shot, it was probably whatever pump-action Daisy I keep seeing in Wal-Mart.
I’ve been in Bellingham. Everyone in that town seemed pissed off.
SL:
Well done that lad.
DaveUK
There was a guy last week on the C.A.F. he had bought a GSG 92 BB gun and was putting it in a holster on his belt when taking a walk with his wife for defense against bad guys and rabbid animals… after a few posts of many people (including me) telling him it wasn’t a good idea and that he was risking bigger injuries from both bad guys and rabbid animals on top of being arrested (if he was lucky enough to not get shot) and him arguing about it the thread was locked…
J-F
BB, chilling the gun works because of the temperature difference between the cartridge and the reservoir (or, rather, the difference in vapor pressure at those temperatures). Seems that warming the cartridge instead of cooling the gun would have the same effect without the inconvenience of finding room in the freezer, waiting for it to cool down, and then waiting for it to warm back up again. I’m thinking hairdryer or heat gun.
Vince,
I knew I shouldn’t have written that!
DO NOT heat a CO2 cartridge with anything! It is a little hand grenade, and will blow apart violently when the internal pressure becomes too high!
B.B.
BB
At the high school I went to, there was a notorious coach who taught shop class. A perennial favorite project of his was to build pine derby cars that are powered by CO2 cartridges. Of course he had built his own car, supposedly while in shop class himself that entered in every race. He always won. It came to light that the competitions were held on chilly mornings and coach was pulling his cartridges from his pocket, rather from the bin like everyone else.
The worst part is that technically he wasn’t cheating. He was merely using his knowledge to gain an advantage. A wily student could certainly do the same thing.
If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying…..
Matt61
I KNEWS you was gonna say that! But if the cartridge is connected to the bulk fill reservoir, all the excess pressure will do is force the CO2 into the gun where we want it. Won’t go BOOM! Besides, I’m only thinking of, maybe, 10- 20 degrees above ambient. That should be safe.
At 89 degrees Fahrenheit CO2 becomes a supercritical liquid instead of a gas phase and a liquid phase. The pressure would increase greatly as the temperature continues to rise. As BB said, think bomb. I surely wouldn’t use a hair dryer or heat gun on the cartridge. Maybe a warm wash cloth.
When I was a kid, Mike and I were inseparable. Our daily routine was destroying something preferably with fire, an explosion or shooting it up. I remember on several occasions obtaining those small CO2 cartridges, covering them with lighter fluid, setting them on fire and running like mad. Not as good as m-80’s but loud and powerful nonetheless.
kevin
Oh my, good thing that info came in about 20 years too late (altough I might still try it) if goes wrong I’m blaming you Kevin!
J-F
It’s info like this that keeps me coming back….. I’m thinking, wind string around the CO2 cartridge, soak string with Coleman fuel or lighter fluid, and light somehow when you’re some distance away. Maybe an electric fuse.
A friend of mine and I used to go out to some fairly wildnernessy area, seems it was at *least* 89 degrees Fahrenheit on those warm days, and set up CO2 cartridges on a rock etc and shoot at ’em with .22 rifles from behind the car door. And people say gun-nuts wouldn’t shoot at a target that shoots back …. good times.
Herb,
89 degrees doesn’t sound too hard to obtain by holding a cylinder in your hand. Would there be danger in doing that?
ka
I would hope not — since some of the hot summers over the last decade used to bring my apartment bedroom (where the gun cabinet is located) to over 90degF… Don’t recall ever having a CO2 powerlet cook off in those conditions (the state of my brain, however, is another matter!)
Kid Again,
I don’t think that holding in your hand would be a problem. You screw them in by hand.
But I eat with my left hand, so I’d use my right hand. 😉
LOL,
Herb
Max safe temperature for the CO2 cartridges seems to be listed as 122 deg F.
So that sounds like “don’t leave ’em in the truck” to me. Never thought about it before.
ka
BB:
Did you say you were also going to do a feature on the air guns Mike Reames makes?
The little taster you gave us of his pistols at Roanoke certainly left me wanting more.
Cheers.
DaveUK
Dave,
I hope I can. Mike is looking for the black powder pistols he needs to make more of those little airguns, and when he gets them I certainly hope he lets me know. I do want to test one for you — and to own one!
B.B.
Converted black powder pistols?Even better 🙂
Thanks again BB.
DaveUK
Tom.
Like I said in the report, there are many repair stations that can soup up this gun. I would think that 625 f.p.s. is not beyond the realm of possibility.
This is just what one does in factory trim. Adding additional CO2 would make no difference, since the internal pressure would always be the same.
B.B.
“Like I said in the report, there are many repair stations that can soup up this gun. I would think that 625 f.p.s. is not beyond the realm of possibility.
This is just what one does in factory trim. Adding additional CO2 would make no difference, since the internal pressure would always be the same.”
While I’m quite familiar with CO2 properties and have been ‘modding’ Crosman CO2 guns since before the term was even in the airgunner’s lexicon I’ve never modified a 114 or—to my certain knowledge—owned one that anyone else has altered. So my comments strictly concerned standard, as-issued factory production. Had I ever found them wanting in power I would have certainly attempted improvements. But I’ve always considered them as ‘sleepers’ that were the ideal tote-about woods guns for squirrels and other small game—-nor have I ever felt under-gunned when using them for that purpose. In point of fact that series pre-saged the PCP revolution and are still effective game getters,
Wish I could stumble across my old records! Tom
I’ve got a collection of the early bulk fills all but one or two of the rifles
I’ve got all the pistols in both colors of handles
I’m still looking for a 117 I’ve never really seen one.
I’m missing one of the gallery guns the 22 I got lucky and
found a 21
I set up a gallery of all these guns and fill them
invite a few non shooting friends and have a party featuring these older
guns. Shooting balloons ect.
Its a fun Barby and it makes it easy to keep everything loaded…
I try to make it look like an old time state fair gallery
jd
OT
Okay, ya gotta love the free enterprise system as seen by the Russians.
I wanted to do some research on Russian biathlon pellet rifle I’d read about. On the same page was this:
http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/krasnopol.shtml
Ya know…I kinda want one now 😉
Talking of IZH products, cowboystar dad did you see the thread on the CAF about the nitro pistons for the IZH-60/61? It’s supposed to be a direct fit. I’m ordering one for my IZH-60, I think it will make a sweet little airgun.
What do you guys think?
J-F
J-F,
Nitro PIstons for IZH 60 & 61 rifles? Really? Why?
In any case, could you post a link to the page on the CAF where that’s mentioned?
Thanks,
Edith
J-F,
I found the thread on the CAF and the Russian store that’s selling them. They’re not Nitro Pistons, though.
Edith
You right, it’s a gas ram.
Still it should be one sweet little gun.
J-F
Why? To have the nicest and smoothest shooting carbine this side of pneumatics airguns.
My IZH-60 buzzes like crazy and I’d be more than happy to get rid of it while retaining the full power it’s supposed to have. I would prefer that to bathing the spring in heavy tar.
I just hope taking it apart won’t be too hard…
J-F
Pardon my ignorance, but what is “CAF”?
Bobby Nations,
Canadian Airgun Forum.
Edith
That should take care of your squirrel problem. And your neighbor’s. And their neighbor’s……
More about 114 velocities——–
Not wanting to make more of a fool of myself than is my usual habit I sent a quick note to Ron Robinson asking him to set my memory straight. He responded by forwarding a section from his upcoming new book and permission to quote it. Tests of one 114 that he had owned matched my memory well enough to consider it representative of the mark. It averaged from 630 fps with Meisterkugeln to 710 with Hobbies in 90 degree Texas weather. Another example ranged between 620 with Premiers at 70 degrees to 635 with JSB 15.9 gr. in Texas 95 degree summer temps.
Ron’s testing and my own memories are both predicated on Texas temps but the 620 fps at 70 degrees matches my recall almost to a tee.
Selling the Crosman bulk-fill rifles short is a mistake IMO.
Not trying to be confrontational BB—-just factual! Respectfully, Tom @ Buzzard Bluff
Tom @ Buzzard Bluff,
Are these velocities from your memory and from Ron Robinson’s notes with the power turned all the way up on the Crosman 114?
I’ve done a couple of airgun deals with Ron Robinson over the past few years. Sold him a vintage gun a few weeks ago. I’ve read his past articles in various airgun magazines and read his book, The Manic Compressive. Ron is good people.
kevin
B.B. & Kevin,
Quite a few months ago you asked me to give you a heads-up when I posted my .22 cal RWS Diana 54 Air King for sale. Well, I finally got around to it. There is also a picture album on Photobucket. The password to the album is ‘Diana54’ (without quotes.)
AlanL
AlanL,
Ha! I just tried to view pics and got “too many incorrect password attempts, try back later”! Seemed easy enough to me, wow!
ka
AlanL,
I can’t get your password to work either. Sent you an email offering to help with your post on the classified.
kevin
How strange! I cleared my cache and tried again w/o problems. Here’s a new custom link to the photos. I hope that’ll work:
http://photobucket.com/RWS_Diana54
Here too is a link to download the pictures (18 of them) as one zip file:
http://s914.photobucket.com/albums/ac346/AlanL_photos/?action=downloadpage&download_id=1809704&evt=dl_email_click&loginFirst=true
Kevin, thanks for all your help!
-AlanL
You may not have any problem viewing your stuff but we do. It’s YOUR album….not ours.
You made it a private album that is hard for anyone but you to get into.
I can’t get into it . After a couple trys, anyone is going to give up and go away.
I make anything that I want to post part of a public album that anyone can view. Then I post the direct link.
twotalon
TwoTalon,
I made it password protected, not private. Then I tested it from another computer and it worked perfectly. But now I made it public.
My apologies to you and everyone who had trouble with it. There should be no access problems now I hope.
-AlanL
Works fast and easy now.
twotalon
What’s the recoil absorbing/compensation method on the Diana 54? Is it a Giss, or an FWB-like sledge?
PeteZ,
It’s a sledge. No double pistons.
AlanL
Kevin said:
“Are these velocities from your memory and from Ron Robinson’s notes with the power turned all the way up on the Crosman 114?”
I choose to believe that to be true since it’s only rational to assume shooting at full power when testing velocity.
“I’ve done a couple of airgun deals with Ron Robinson over the past few years. Sold him a vintage gun a few weeks ago. I’ve read his past articles in various airgun magazines and read his book, The Manic Compressive. Ron is good people.”
“Ron is good people” indeed! We’ve known each other for longer than either of us would care to admit. Ron was already buying and selling airguns when I got back into them in the 70s and I bought one or two from him. We’re hardly ‘best buddies’ but we know each other well enough to play catch-up when we meet on the rare occasion. Somewhere @ here I even have a copy of his 1st self-published work, a few pages of velocities of various airguns that he had tested over a chronograph in the days when a chronograph in private hands was a bit of a rarity. Ron has undoubtedly been testing airgun velocities for longer than anyone else on the planet—-hence why I turned to ‘the source’ to verify my own recall. Tom
It’s me I’m back, not 100% but a whole lot better.
“The real glory is being knocked to your knees and then coming back. That’s real glory. That’s the essence of it.”
Vince Lombardi
I want to thank those of you on here that expressed their concern about my absence and offered their best wishes. DaveUk passed the wishes on to my wife.
Well, just want to let you know I’m doing okay and will be checking in occasionally.
rikib
Glad you are still with us.
Don’t worry us like that.
twotalon
twotalon,
Thanks I’ll try not to worry myself like that again either, lol.
rikib
Very good to hear you’re OK, you had us all worried.
Very good (and sadly I suppose it applies to you) quote, being able to get back is nice but it’s better not being on your knees at all.
How are your dogs doing?
There was a puppy mill taken down recently around here (over 500 dogs including a bunch of pregnant ones) we took a one that just had her puppies and they’re all doing pretty good the mother was the hardest because a 5 or 7 years old she never had any human contact other than to take her puppies away she never ran around a yard or slept in a good, warm and calm environment. She now runs in the backyard with her puppies and our other dogs, it took her a few weeks to build some muscles but now she’s doing pretty good and likes to be pet, she’s not up for belly rubs yet but maybe some day.
The sentenceshaven’t been announced yet but the people who were operating the puppy mill lost in court last week, I hope we could put them in small cells where they can’t barely get up and the floor as a bath room, bed and food tray.
Sorry I didn’t want to annoy or bother anyone with this story, I couldn’t talk about it until the trial was over and it feels so good that we won and won’t have to give those dogs back to these ladies (the mill was run by two heartless women).
Glad to see you back and your feet Rick, take care.
J-F
J-F,
I’m doing well as can be expected. All my dogs and cats are well, I missed them while I was away in the hospital. It’s good to be back home again.
rikib
Rick,
Great to hear you back. I hope you will drop in more often. Are you well enough to take your duel sport out for a rip?
Caveman,
I do plan to drop in more often now that I’m. Not up to taking the dual sport out yet, just drove my Jeep a couple days ago for the first time in about 2 months. Need to build up more strength and balance before getting back on the bike.
rikib
Good to hear you’re ok, rikib! Your comments were missed.
J-F, it’s hard for me to comprehend people like that. My dogs have always been part of my family. They even sleep on top of my bed, and we have ice cream together every night.
/Dave
Thanks /Dave its good to be back!
rikib
Welcome Rick ,glad to hear from you! 🙂
Milan,
Nice to hear from you how have you been doing?
rikib
Hi Rick !I am doing fine,it is too cold for shooting outside thou 🙂 !I am thinking to buy myself Benjamin Discovery (dark side is so tempting 🙂 )!Glad to see you back on the blog buddy 🙂
Rickib,
Glad to see you’re back, don’t stay away so long. Best to you with your health.
ka
KA,
Hope I will not have to stay away like that again. Thanks for the best wishes for my health, I need it!
rikib
rikib,
Good to have you back! Take care of yourself. You’re worth it.
Victor
Victor,
It is good to be back. I’m just finishing up with my physical and occupational therapy. All is going good!
rikib
rikib
You and your quotes are always missed in their absence. You are one of the good ones.
SL,
I’m glad to be back and I will try to come up with some quotes, being that I don’t know much about the guns. Still just have mod 2240 which does me fine.
rikib
Question on the Crosman M417… Ok, the juvenile side of me won and it arrived yesterday. The small sliding switch on the BB chanmber (not the big 350 resevior, the small BB channel on top to feed the breech) is stuck in the back position. It won’t slide forward. Am I missing something to release it to move it forward? Can someone help?
Bristolview,
It’s plastic and the first push may be very hard.
B.B.
Thanks. It moved from the forward position to the rear without any issue, and a positive click. Now, it won’t move forward again. Very hard is an understatement, feels like it’ll break before it lets go. Something doesn’t feel quite right. Hard is one thing, this is a few steps beyond that.
Bristolview,
Then send it back. It isn’t supposed to be that hard. Mine was stiff at first, but got smoother as I used it.
One thing — have you tried pressing IN on the switch as you try to slide it?
B.B.
BB – Thanks. Yes, I’ve tried pressing it in while trying to
move it, no luck. If I push harder on it, I think something will break. Yup, sounds like an exchange.
Side note: my daughter and I went plinking today. She used her IZH-61 and I used the new Crosman M417. We both used the same tin of pellets, CP’s. She blew me away at 30 yards, easily out shooting me. I can usually outshoot her slightly (not for much longer) with my Crosman Custom Shop beauty (like a Crosman Outdoorsman), but couldn’t pull it off with the m417. I don’t expect the M417 to match the IZH-61 for accuracy, but I’ll drop a scope on it and see what it can do. It seems to shoot decently overall, but I’m the weak link with the peep sights. Can’t wait to see what it can do with a dialed in scope.
Bristolview,
Don’t get your hopes up too far! I have a rifled 760 and it’s minute of barn side at best! I’ve tried everything but shooting over my shoulder with a mirror. Come to think of it, that might work.
ka
There are a lot of things that make a rifle go shotgun.
Lets say the barrel has nothing wrong with the main part of the bore, and the pellet heads fit snug.
Snags at the transfer port, rear edge of the rifling, and at the crown are going to be the most usual suspects. If you try to chamber a pellet and it takes quite a bit of force….then suddenly snaps in, you have a snag at the breech end. The pellet should press in, not suddenly snap with pressure.
My 397 loaded this way, and was hard pressed to keep all shots on a beer can in my living room. I do not have a large living room. After I lapped out the breech end enough that the pellets smoothly pressed in, it turned into a one holer indoors.
twotalon
TT,
I never thought of checking the 760 over. In fact, now that you’ve mentioned it I’m kind of surprised that all I’ve done with the new one is shoot it and be a bit disappointed with the accuracy. This is the 40th anniversary edition that went back to Crosman (or PA) and got 2″ trimmed off the barrel. I only bought it for collection sake, but could not resist shooting it. I have two projects going now, this will have to wait, but thanks for the idea to go through the gun (or at least checking the bbl).
ka
I’m not expecting much out of the M417 actually. It seems to be fairly consistent, and with a good scope I should be able to see how accurate and consistent it can be. I’m pretty sure that it won’t be able to match the IZH-61, which does one hole groups all day. I’m not expecting the M417 to pull that off. We cut out egg cartons to make a dozen ‘Egg Heads’. I’ll be happy if the M417 can consistently hit them at 30 yards. It’s only a plinker after all, not a target gun. So far, it seems alright for plinking.
Bristolview,
Is there any way you can compare the IZH-61 to the M417 at 10 yds which is the target rifle distance? Also, is there any way you can retest both with the Hobby pellets? Sorry to hear about your problems with the BB port.
Sure can. I hardly ever shoot that close but that’s an easy test to run for you. At that close, the IZH-61 will likely be a ragged hole, it’s just amazingly consistent. From what I’ve seen, I suspect the M417 will be decent, but probably not a one holer. I’m impressed with it so far, shoots better than I expected. Anyway, no time to shoot both today. I’ll shoot them 10m on Wednesday (tomorrow) for you. I’ll post the groupings online and give you a link to see them. Then you can draw your own conclusions about them. The M417 is more powerful than the IZH-61, but both are more than enough for 10m target. Quality wise, the IZH-61 seems to be higher with what feels more like modern weapons grade polymer for its plastic. The M417 has a decent plastic, but it is most definitely plastic, not the nicer polymer used on many modern firearms.
Ok, I did a quick test. Some things to keep in mind – I’m no 10m target shooter, my fingers were frozen and it was a little breezy. Still, the results weren’t too bad. I haven’t taken a photo of the targets since I was a little short on time
The plan was two groups of 5 for both guns, if the results were consistent, that’s all I planned to do. If I didn’t get a consistent result, I would continue with more groups. I also didn’t have anything handy to measure with, so used US coins. Both guns shot Crosman Premier’s, nothing special.
The IZH-61:
Group 1: One US dime covered all 5 shots. 4 through a ragged hole, one separate.
Group 2: One US dime covered all 5 shots. All 5 through one ragged hole (sort of vertical stringed)
I was pretty happy with these, I’m always grinning after shooting this rifle.
M417:
Group 1: Took a US quarter to cover all 5 shots, all distinct holes. This was poor, could be me.
Group 2: Better. 4/5 were covered with a US nickel, one was an outlier (but all 5 could be covered with a quarter still)
Group 3: 3/5 tightly grouped covered with a US dime, 2 others were high but together. Again, a quarter would cover them all.
Group 4: 5/5 covered with a US nickel, scatter pattern. This gun and I getting to know each other.
Group 5: 5/5 covered with a US nickel, 3 shots touching each other. Note to self, quit gripping gun so much. It seems to like being rested on my front hand, not held.
Group 6: 5/5 almost covered with a dime, edges peeking out from under the dime.
Group 7: 5/5 almost covered with a dime, 3 touching each other, edges just peeking out from the dime.
I didn’t have time to do any more. When I learned to stop gripping the gun so much, it seemed to do better. It’s not a springer, but holding it that way seemed to help the consistency. I can’t tell if it’s the rifle or me though. In 7 groups, I couldn’t match the tight grouping of the IZH-61, but I got it fairly close. A better shooter could likely have done a tighter grouping, but I think this showed that the M417 can do reasonable groups. The IZH-61 is an amazing rifle, and is incredibly consistent. I don’t think the M417 can match the IZH’s consistency, but it’s plenty good for casual target shooting and plinking. As I get to know it better, perhaps I’ll get better with it and see what it can do.
Hope this helps.
B.B.,
I bought a used AirForce Condor a little while ago and I have a question about it. When it was shipped, the tank was empty, and the top hat turned very easily. How can I tell that the top hat is in the position it came from the factory? I love this gun, and I don’t want to damage it in any way. Any help is very appreciated, and thank you very much.
Chris K.
Chris,
The top hat will turn because the entire valve stem turns when the reservoir is empty. The space under the top hat should be 0.90″ or just stick a quarter under there like I used to for a quick test.
Don’t adjust the top hat on your Condor. The valve stem is too thin to allow many adjustments.
B.B.
BB,
OK, thank you for the very speedy reply! So the top hat does not adjust by turning it, it adjusts by loosening the allen screws on the top hat and moving it back and forth, right? If this is the case, you cleared up a lot of confusion for me. I’m definitely not going to mess around with the top hat, but I don’t want to accidentally mess with it.
Thank you,
Chris Kanters
Chris,
That’s how it works. Those two Allen screws dimple the valve stem, which is very thin on the High Flow valve, so many adjustments will wrinkle the stem badly.
The top Hat is also threaded and moves up and down by turning after the screw are loosened, but after a couple of adjustments the threaded portion may be out of round and it may be difficult to adjust it further.
B.B.
B.B.
Good news.
Except for pistons this is a complete engine with trigger housing and front support installed.
[IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/10qfonl.jpg[/IMG]. To my surprise – almost no fitting, it all snapped in into place just brilliant, tight and sound, although some filing with a very fine file on the one side of rear pusher slot was required, a bit of friction there. Now it all moves with a safe door’s sound and rings in the end. Well, lots of deburring as usual – but that’s the part of the game and now I have a beautiful set of reamers and a new scrape.
I feel a bit exhausted but happy. Half of the job is done. More to do and to explore 🙂
duskwight
duskwight,
You have to be satisfied with the progress so far. Your rifle is starting to take shape. The careful machining work shows in how the parts went together. Aren’t you proud?
Good work!
B.B.
B.B.
I think it’s not yet time to be proud. We’ve got a saying “chickens are counted in the autumn”, so it’s almost winter and I must wait to be proud till I make a “same hole” 5-shot group with my new rifle. Today it’s satisfaction and body feels happy because I stopped exploiting it.
Day’s worst part was getting home from the shop – temperature floats around zero, so it’s one time freezing rain and another time ice grits, and I have to carry my assembly and my sanding tool and bits and other stuff in all this mess. And I must say assembly IS heavy, right now it feels almost like a heavy-barreled CFX without stock and scope. I wonder it’s final weight – MG42? M2HB? M-61? I think I’ll order some wide-strap carry backpack.
Yes, I was almost surprised everything snapped into place this easy. It’s nearly suspicious ’cause before everything came the hard way. I hope for more surprises to come 🙂
duskwight
duskwight,
May all your surprises be happy ones.
B.B.
A belated Happy Thanksgiving and Black Friday to all. No, I was not laid up from falling afoul of protesters. I rolled out of bed at noon on Thanksgiving and by the time I headed over to the store, it was closed leaving me stuck with spaghetti!
/Dave thanks for your ID of the paintball guns. Now why would police be carrying them? I’ve never heard of police using them, but I guess they hurt so they could be a form of pain compliance. Or maybe they can be modified to shoot rubber bullets. Thank goodness the police decided not to cut loose with them or the world of airgunning might be feeling the repercussions. To answer your question, the protesters are taking the broad themes of the OWS movement–what they describe as the unequal distribution of wealth–and applying them to the university. Specifically, they are objecting to dramatic raises in tuition to offset the state’s budget cuts to higher education while administrators continue to draw six figure salaries. Those are the issues in a nutshell. As to their methods, one might say that they should proceed through proper channels for their grievances. But the university bureaucracy is like sludge, not unlike what exists in Washington D.C., and the protesters have some grounds for saying that the institution is rigged against them and they would get nowhere. So, it is with a certain amount of calculation that they are going outside the system to raise hell and make the highest authorities, like the chancellor, who would normally be beyond their reach, experience their pain. Such seems to be the game plan.
My sense of the incident is that far from black and white as it has been painted, it is a very convoluted case of brinksmanship which everyone is trying to rewrite after the fact to their advantage. The chancellor claims that she explicitly told the police to remove the tents and not the people. I find it unlikely a distinction like this was really made and it doesn’t have much meaning anyway when the protesters were blocking the tents (sort of). This was definitely a call by the boots on the ground. Maybe the chancellor is correct but I can’t help associating her comment with one from a spy novel I read where it says about one spy: “He had never liked Washington D.C. It was full of speed readers who knew everything and left you holding the bag when things went wrong.” Regardless of exactly what happened, one can sympathize with the syndrome of people expecting law enforcement and the military (by extension) to confront violence so that they don’t have to then turning around and blaming them from the armchair when it’s not done a particular way. The students are calling for “sensitivity training” for the police which I think is something of a laugh and something that the protesters could use just as well.
The officer who fired the pepper spray is an interesting character. Ex-Marine sergeant who has climbed swiftly through the ranks and won some awards. The most notable is foregoing pepper spray to tackle a mental patient wielding scissors because he did not want to hurt the patient or his fellow officers. That’s good. However, he was also involved in a discrimination suit by another officer who accused him of using an anti-gay slur and the suit went against the department to the tune of a quarter million dollars. So, he seems like a fish who needs a very particular environment to turn his talents to productive use.
My own sense of the case which you will not see in media coverage is that the true victim here is pepper spray! A lovely self-defense weapon that doesn’t have anything like the concealment problems of my plastic sjambok. And you can see the effectiveness of pepper spray from that story about the woman in L.A. pepper spraying customers on Black Friday so that she could get to some xboxes! However, shoppers do not need pepper spray to be childish. There was another story about a grandfather who was left bleeding on the ground after a scuffle with other shoppers and police. His family said that he was absolutely not at fault for anything and that he had no choice but to tuck that video game into his belt under his shirt so as to leave his hands free to protect his grandson…. Well, what recession can stand up in the face of that consumer demand and enterprising spirit….
That story that somebody mentioned about the real sniper in Vietnam who used an issue M-14 sounds like Chuck Mawhinnie, one of the highest scoring snipers in Vietnam–even higher than Carlos Hathcock–who used an M14 on a night ambush in Vietnam. But Chuck had no mental problems. He even claimed to love sniping because hunting humans provided the ultimate rush! He was a very nice guy and caused no problems in civilian life, but he was obviously a born soldier. As another instance of a real sniper, I learned that Carlos Hathcock, in perhaps his greatest feat, was choppered in to some remote area where he painstakingly crawled hundreds of yards to take out some high value target then avoided a frenzied search for him and made it to the extraction point. When he was picked up, his body was almost completely raw from the marathon crawling and being bitten by ants. Intense!
One thing I will say about my bogus sniper, though, is that he said when shooting, you never want to wait once you get the sight picture because you will just —– —. Whatever he really did, it sounds like he encountered the Jaws of the Subconscious at some point.
Matt61
Matt,
Some police departments use pepper spray in the paintball form too. However, if you’ve ever shot a paintball gun, you may have experienced that occasional ball that breaks in the breach. That would pretty much ruin your day if it were full of oleoresin capsicum…
I have nothing against protestors having a peaceful demonstration. It’s part of their 1st amendment rights and sometimes a necessary part of the process of getting things changed. When they start getting obnoxious, they are running their own risk of having it misinterpreted as an act of aggression, in which case retaliation by the peace officers is always a possibility. I wasn’t there and didn’t see exactly what provoked the pepper spray, so I would have to side with the officer’s judgement on this one.
/Dave
I just got back from my father in laws’ place. He’s just up the road about 5 miles. Holy crap! Talk about bird central!!! No wonder the dove aren’t flying where I’ve been hunting, they have all found their fat and happy place! I’m not joking, I saw 20+ Eurasian dove in one Joshua tree on my way past his house. There is about 25 of those trees on his 2 1/2 acres. I just put my new project 2240 on top priority!!
Anyway, he and I got to talking and he brought out a Crosman 130 that he’s had forever. We got it to pump by using Pelgun oil, but the trigger won’t cock. The manual states it’s self cocking and gives instruction what to do if it doesn’t cock. We tried everything to no avail, so I brought it home and broke it down. It did not hold air either, but it seemed like it was while pumping it. It needs resealing and it looks like some new o rings are in order. I think these are available, but what about that trigger not cocking? And what the h e double l is a self cocking gun?? The slide breech has no connection and the pumping action does not appear to do it either. My 1377 has the slide breech and a cocking pull at the rear of the main tube.
Anyone got any help on that? I plan on going through the archives here, just haven’t yet. OR… would I be more prudent to send it out, as I am not really familiar with the process, or the gun.
ka
Oops, see post below. I forgot to hit the reply button….
/Dave
KA,
I have a Crosman Medalist 2 model 1300 22cal. it is self cocking also. The sear holds the valve shut there is no hammer or spring to knock the valve open, there is a small spring to close the valve after the pressure drops and the trigger is released. There is a small piston that the spring pushes forward that closes the valve and engages the sear if it doesn’t close you can hear the air go out the barrel as you pump. I would check the spring or see if the piston or sear is sticking. On mine there are two screws at the rear one through the sight one directly under it, if you remove them the rear plug and the parts I mentioned should side right out. I hope this is of some help.
Shaky,
Thanks. I’m still trying to wrap my brain around how this functions. Rereading your description (probably 100 times) and staring at the exploded view for hours aught to do it! I don’t (didn’t) get air leaking that I could hear, but I noticed that the pump piston seemingly pulled air on the back stroke, not sure if that would negate the pumping or not. Though it did create a substantial amount of vacuum before reaching the end ob the backstroke.
ka
KA,
If you read the manual from the link I posted (not the diagram), it says to try pushing a 7 penny nail through the hole in the tube plug to cock it. I’m pretty sure this one operates as a dump valve like my old 760 and may just have a weak return spring. From Crosman’s manual, it looks as though they were well aware of this problem….
/Dave
/Dave,
Yea, I read that. Actually, we got some laughs out of that! I tried using a 6d nail (.25″ shorter, same dia.) and that didn’t seem to do anything. Is it supposed to release pressure or reposition the part that cocks the trigger? I pushed pretty darned hard. In fact I was concerned that I may have left a mark on whatever I was pushing on. Do you think the valve is stuck shut? Looking at the exploded view of the valve assembly #760-046, I have # 140A056 and 130-057 separated, but have not separated the remaining pieces. Should I be concerned with stored pressure with further dis assembly?
ka
ka
Shaky n /Dave,
I re assembled the parts in the main tube and trigger frame, as well as installing the pump and arm. The relation of block(#A17) and sear looks normal. Meaning that the trigger is functioning with no obstructions. The pump piston seals adequately to pump. When pumping I can hear air ‘burping’ through the transfer port. This would appear to me there is no pressure building up in valve, even though I am getting a good amount of resistance in the handle. Have to get back to it tonight, gotta get some other stuff done.
ka
Shaky, /Dave,
OK, let’s see if I got this. I am looking at Crosman’s exploded view of model 130, and can see how the sear (part #1300-016) holds the valve closed. It hooks the trailing end of part #A17. When trigger is pulled the sear drops and pressure opens valve. At low or no pressure spring #111-30 pushes A17 back into position over the ‘hook’ on the trigger sear, closing the valve and resetting the trigger. The suggestion in the manual to use a nail to push into the hole in back of main appears to be to reposition #A17 over the sear, essentially doing the same thing as the spring. When the gun was assembled I could not move anything enough to reset trigger. It seamed as though the sear was not letting the block pass over the top. Not sure why yet. Going to re assemble and observe the whole procedure as best I can. Be back in a couple hours. 🙂
ka
KA,
Thats describes pretty well how I believe it works,p/n 130-57 slides into 140AO56 and seals the hole in
140-004. The hole in the top of 140AO56 lines up with the hole in the barrel. When the sear releases p/n 130-57 is blown back letting the air into the barrel. If p/n A17 will not go forward far enough to engage the sear the whole valve assembly may be out of position I think it is held in place by the screw in front of the trigger guard p/n 130-031
Shaky,
OK, you got it! Now, nothing appears to be out of line or out of position as you suggested. I suspect the valve is not receiving the air put to it via the pump. Or maybe I should just ask “where the H does the air pressurize from the pump”? The assembly from #’s 140-004 to 130-005 are still together, there is no part #130-035 on this gun… wait, that’s an o ring, it’s there and it looks good. When I observed the mechanical movement while pumping nothing looked off or irregular. The only thing is, gun won’t hold pressure and before I tore it down wouldn’t cock. Hmm… Valve?
ka
Truth be known, this gun was bought by the 2nd owner sometime in the ’60’s off a guy that couldn’t get it to fire. I just found out today. I now think an “expert” had his hand at a rebuild, as there are signs that this guns been opened before me.
ka
KA,
I guess it’s time to start looking into seeing if the other expert reinstalled something backwards or upside down… Kinda sounds like it from your description of how it won’t move far enough for the sear to catch. And since it is a dump valve, it won’t hold pessure until it does catch.
/Dave
/Dave,
Do you know if the valve unscrews from pcs 140-004 to 130-005 to expose the little parts inside? Or is this a pressed on item?
ka
KA,
The one in my old 760 looks just like it and it unscrews. Normal, right-hand threads. There’s another o-ring that keeps those sealed, and another tiny one on the inside of the exhaust valve.
/Dave
KA,
Here’s a link for Crosman’s diagrams and parts lists.
https://www.crosman.com/cs/manuals/crosman-pistols
JG Airguns may have what you need in the way of parts. It’s one of the dealers that was recommended to me by PA when I was looking for a cocking shoe/plate for my HW90 (which interestingly enough, PA had in the form of the Beeman RX-2, same gun as the HW90). They have a lot of Crosman parts which are searchable by model number. If not them, you can get just about any size o-ring or weird seal from McMaster-Carr.
/Dave
/Dave,
Thanks. I also looked around and found Mac1. They are a couple of hours from me, and Bass Pro Shoppes’ in between, so I’m makin’ the drive Monday. 8D
Now if I can just figure how to shoot those in season
Dove with a shotgun (legal), but not a firearm because it’s in city limits (not legal)!! Is there shot that can be shot out of a .22cal 2240?
ka
rikib and milan,
Glad you are both back and hope you are both well or at least headed in that direction.
riki are you back to working with your dogs?