by B.B. Pelletier
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
A couple announcements first.
Pyramyd AIR has a new contest. Valentine’s Day is coming up, and they’d like your story about the airgun you love the most.
Submissions will be accepted through Sunday, February 14, 2010. The winner will receive a $200 Pyramyd AIR gift ecard. The second and third place winners will receive $100 and $50 gift ecards, respectively.
Several regular blog readers have said they’d like to receive all the blog comments and help me answer them. If you want to do the same, please email me. Many people find this blog through search engines, but the search results often take them to a past blog…and that’s where they post their questions. Only those who are signed up to get all the comments will see them and have a chance to answer them. There’s no obligation to answer all the posts. We don’t want our volunteers to feel like they’re obligated or that this is a homework assignment. No one will check up on you or say you aren’t answering enough. How much you do is up to you. You can pull out at any time. Just let us know if it’s too much. No pressure.
Okay I did tease you with this report on Friday. I knew what I’m about to tell you was important, but I wanted you to see the results for yourself. I didn’t just want to put them into a comment that was unsubstantiated.
This all started at the SHOT Show, when I was in the AirForce booth. A coach from a youth rifle team was praising the AirForce Edge to the skies to John McCaslin, and I happened to be standing there listening to what he said. He told us his top shooter had a new Edge and had been going though various target pellets until he happened upon some Gamo Match 7.5-grain wadcutters. All of a sudden he was getting phenomenal groups, and they didn’t seem to vary.
It took me a full ten minutes to listen to the praise this coach was heaping on the Edge, but I’m shortening it to a couple sentences for you. Then and there I resolved to test the Gamo Match pellet in my test rifle. If there’s a “magic pellet” out there, I want everyone to know about it. And, yes, I used the same vice as before so the test conditions were the same.
Sad to say, I did not get the same results as the coach. Not even close! The Edge I am testing actually shot RWS Basic pellets better than these Gamo Match pellets. So, why am I telling you this? Certainly not for the Gamo Match results, but because as I was heading out to the test range I happened to find a tin of target pellets that I hadn’t tested in the Edge yet, so I took them along. And not just that–they were the head diameter that I always find to be the most accurate in my personal target rifles and pistols.
And that is where today’s story begins–with a JSB S100 Match Diabolo pellet in the head size 4.52mm. I’m sorry but not only is Pyramyd AIR out of this pellet, I called all the 10-meter supply houses in the United States and nobody carries them! Scott Pilkington who makes Vogel target pellets even told me that he wouldn’t make a 4.52mm head size because he doesn’t think there’s enough demand for it. So, you may have difficulty finding these pellets.
The rifle was already chucked in the vise, so all that remained was to load and fire the pellets. As before, the target was a piece of target paper–no bullseye. What’s this? The group didn’t seem to grow as the shots increased. And that was the result I had been looking for all along–a pellet that did exactly what we all expected.
Group after group hovered around the same size. So I had a thought. What would a different rifle do? I had access to several, so I chucked up two more and continued the test. The results were pretty much the same, as you can see.
After a handful of groups from the three rifles it was obvious the Edge really likes this pellet. What I do not know is whether it is the S100 pellet design or the 4.52mm head diameter that matters the most. My experience suggests that the head size is more important here, because it’s the same thing I’ve seen repeatedly with other target airguns and different brands of pellets.
And that’s my surprise for you today. I’m sorry it was so easy, but sometimes that’s the way it goes. My experience shooting black powder arms tells me that when lead bullets are at least one-thousandth of an inch larger than bore size (that’s across the grooves) from which they’re fired, the best accuracy results. Pellets seem to perform the same.
In fairness to Crosman, I feel I must revisit the Challenger PCP, because it never had the same chance that I just gave the Edge. So, you can expect another report on that in the near future.
Looks like my 953 groups with a scope and using a rest.
The right pellet can can make the difference.
On my shelf, I probably have half the pellets PA sells in .177 and .22 caliber.
Very seldom, the best pellet I generally use doesn't work as well and I use a different pellet until I figure out why.
Morning B.B.,
All right pellet is found! Well almost that is, cause now all we need is someone to import them for us.
How do I slug the bores on my 12 and 24 inch AirForce barrels? I want to determine their bore diameters, find the appropriate sized diabolo pellets and try them out.
ajvenom, are you serious about the size of the groups from your 953?
Mr B.
speaking of the gamo match wadcutters, the tin actually claims 7.71gr. i think the older gamo match pelles (in the read tin) were 7.5gr, and pyramyd has yet to change the description.
on another note, can anyone point me to or give me a good procedure for "washing" the lead shavings/trash from the gamo pellets. that extra trash can't be good for keeping a clean bore or consistent accuracy. thnx
B.B.
Too bad that you just used up the most valuable pellets in the USA….
Sort of like testing all of your matches before going on a camping trip to make sure they are going to work…
LOL!
B.B.,
Coincidence?
With rare exception my .177 springers shoot jsb exacts (blue tin, 4.52 mm heads) or beeman fts (4.52 mm heads) best out of many tested pellets.
I sure wish PA would publish which head size they have in stock since these pellets come in different head sizes and it requires a phone call to confirm what they're selling before I place an order. Not a big deal but would be helpful.
kevin
I wish I had a lothar walther barrel on my 953. It is picky on pellets. Only a select few pellets will give me .200 or less ctc 5 round groups at 10M using a scope and a rest. Roughly, 5mm. The trigger pull is about 2.25 lbs and I can now get a good feel how to que it up before it breaks after a lot of practice.
I don't know why I use millimeters, but the ruler is easy to use and is quick to tell what's going on. I keep a journal and rank the potential of all my air rifles from 2mm to 6mm and the 1077 at 10mm.
Best 5 rounds with a scoped 953 using a rest with jsb exact heavies at 10m was 1mm ctc. I had another at 1.5mm but rounded it up becasue it was hard to measure with a ruler and done on computer paper. I use real targets now.
Standing and using challenger sights, my groups generally double. On a good day I can get close, but never better than using a scope and a bench.
I also, sometimes use more than one point on the milldot scope to align my shot to reduce rotation of the air rifle shot to shot, cup the stock to keep the handle from vibrating the rifle, keep both eyes open and fire after exhaling.
Mr. B.,
Nobody slugs the bore of air rifles. Use JSB Exact 15.8-grain and 18-grain pellets and H&N Baracudas for the best accuracy in AirForce barrels.
B.B.
Pelletman,
Gamo Match pellets exist as both 7.5 grains and 7.71 grains. That's why I specified the 7.5 grain pellets. See these two links:
/product/gamo-match-177-cal-7-56-grains-wadcutter-250ct?p=257
/product/gamo-match-177-cal-7-56-grains-wadcutter-500ct?p=183
B.B.
Kevin,
Pyramyd AIR is SLOWLY staring to realize the importance of head sizes for some (not all) of the pellets they stock. But they sell so many millions of pellets that they will need to modify their warehousing system in a major way to keep up with it.
In the same time thatn a target retailer sells a sleeve of pellets, PA sells a pallet.
B.B.
B.B.,
Understood. Daunting task.
PA is undoubtedy aware that I'm not the only one that has made this plea.
When PA improved their pellet packaging/shipping method it was amazing to see the positive impact it had on pellet buyers. Since other retailers publish head sizes available/in stock I think when PA starts doing this it will eliminate any remaining edge that these retailers have over PA for pellet sales.
kevin
BG_Farmer
After reading your pleas to Volvo to refinish his RWS stock for him, I regret to inform you that you seem to be suffering from the effects of acute cabin fever. I am very concerned for your well-being.
In the spirit of the selflessness and brotherhood fostered by this blog, I am willing to send you the bent 2×4 finished in brown magic marker that is currently bolted to my Discovery action. This project should keep you occupied long enough to keep you from writing "All work and no play make Jack a dull boy" over and over in your journal.
I am willing to endure ebony accents, and hand checkering if that's what it takes to maintain your mental well-being.
PS Please don't thank me. When you feel good, I feel good.
bb,
i followed the same link, and actually purchased the pellets a month ago. if you click the "Click to have a closer look" tag under the pellet tin picture, you will plainly see 7.71gr on the tin cover, which matches what i received, and what my scale confirms. just trying to be helpful.
Pelletman,
I will inform PA they have the description wrong and are sending the wrong pellets.
Either that or there are no more 7.5-grain pellets and Gamo has give PA the wrong information.
We will look into it. Thanks for the head's up!
B.B.
A pallet of pellets in my Palace sounds palatable.
Pelletman,
We looked into it and it now appears that the 7.5 grain .177 Match pellets are history. I specifically asked them two months ago about this and was assured that both weights would continue, but in fairness to Gamo USA, they are often kept in the dark by Spain and only find things out when they happen.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. The website will be corrected.
B.B.
Slinging Lead,
BG_Farmer is apparently speechless with joy at your so very kind and selfless offer.
You in your elegent compassion and thoughtfulness are an example of all that is well with the folks who read and contribute to this blog.
Mr B.
glad i could contribute.
as a reward,…any info regarding a beneficial "washing" procedure for those dirty gamo pellets?
thnx
Pelletman,
I never wash pellets, so I'm not the guy to respond. Hopefully someone who does will answer you.
B.B.
I have a CO2 airgun by which I utilize a 9oz CO2 tank to power.
I found a 3000psi air tank which is regulated to 800psi output(which is similar to CO2 psi operating range).
I know you are not supposed to introduce petroleum oil like Crosman Pellgun Oil into the air tank in any way, but is there a danger on the output valve end of the 800psi air mixing with (flashing) the oil already in the gun or on connecting adapters?
As you can surmise from my question, I wondering if there is any danger of me switching tanks back and forth on the gun.
Pelletman,
I wash my crosman premiers with rubbing alcohol and then cover them in coconut oil and my fingers never get black anymore. This also evens out the spread and increases feet per second by a little.
Wacky Wayne, MD. Ashland Air Rifle Range
I cannot recommend that practice, but I do know that many people do it. The oil cannot enter a pressure vessel through a port that exhausts pressurized air.
B.B.
Pelletman,
I don't use the Premiers often, my favorite pellets are JSB in 8.4 or 10.2 in the .177 or Kodiak if long range windy conditions.. The premiers shoot as well, but aren't worth the trouble to clean them IMHO!
They are the only pellets I wash.
I have just started to weigh my pellets now. What an eye opener!
With the JSB I'm finding they vary from 7.9 to 8.8 where they should be 8.4. That's way too much! Tim and LD had told me to start weighing, but I couldn't believe they would vary that much.
Maybe it's just this first tin, but wow….
and darn, this is a very slow operation!… only for testing and matches!
Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range
B.B.
I noticed that the re-branded JSB as Air Arms pellets, do come in both 4.5 and 4.52 and the 4.52 do very well in my AAs410.. like 5 shots in a 7/16" hole at 50 yards! Ed was trying out mine and brought back the target… I just ordered one for him in .22 cal!
Wacky Wayne, MD. Ashland Air Rifle Range
Wayne,
Re: Weighing pellets a slow operation
Think your process takes time?
Ever see Harry's (login: Yrrah, the long range shooting guru) pellet weighing/sorting method?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1189430606/Pellet+sorting+-+inspection+-+batching+-+my+present+ultimate+strategies+for+long+ranging
kevin
By the way,
Ed moved the target out to 100 yards, he was still set on just over med. power (875fps), and the wind picked up by then, but he had a 1" high 10 shot group, spread 3" sideways with the wind… 5 of which were in a 1" circle! Again, this is with the Air Arms 4.52 8.4gr. pellets, right from the tin.
Wacky Wayne, MD. Ashland Air Rifle Range
Wayne,
You are proving what I have long known–the fact that an oversized lead projectile is almost always the most accurate in an airgun. Maybe a discussion will stimulate some research? Many manufacturers now read this blog every day.
B.B.
Kevin,
Wow!, I don't think I'll take it that far…. letting each pellet fall through calibers for width, and then sorting by 1/10th after the first sorting into single grain variance.
Interesting though, my sorting tins are filling up the 8.6 one the most and the 8.4 tin has none! Seems like they are over or under, but not 8.4.. so far anyway.
I might finish that tin later today and maybe start that valve lock test on the USFT tonight.. but don't count on it, I'm getting ready to look at a mining claim I might buy on my birthday tomorrow, so I'm learning to use my new metal detector and GPS today..
Wacky Wayne, MD. Ashland Air Rifle Range
Wayne,
Would guess that the 8.6 tin is filling up the quickest because the pellet mold filled completely and those pellets were meant to be 8.6 gr all along OR you've got excess flashing inside the skirts.
kevin
B.B.
Well maybe the caliber fall through trick is more important than the weight.. or at least AS important!
I'm anxious to test these pellets when I get through.. maybe I'll even do some the way Kevin's link is showing and see if that extra level makes any difference… but I'd bet it's hard to really know, since I won't be clamping the gun, unless I set up something..
Wacky Wayne
I did a small experiment on a group of premium point pellets out of my 1377 with a scope. 5 yards was my range I used. I don't remember the groupings, but unwashed, unlubed pellets worked the best. There were also lubed and washed, lubed and unwashed, washed and unlubed sets and done after cleaing the barrel each time.
It's not to say that that washing and/or lubing can help. It just didn't help me with that airgun with those pellets. I prefer not to wash and/or lube pellets….so I try to find ones that work out of the tin.
Although, I have sometimes lubed pellets very lightly when I shoot out doors. Why, I don't really know. Maybe because I feel the airguns need extra protection when shooting outdoors.
I think using a lube on the pellets on a pcp OR higher velocity airguns may be a good thing. Pump, Co2 and spring air guns will most likely get some lube through the power plants.
The highest velocity I shoot is probably 800 fps at best with a .22 springer, So lubing's not a big issue for me.
Gamo seems to be heading more for hunting, so perhaps minor changes in pellets are not view the same as to a target shooter.
When I talk to airgunners in the UK, sometimes they will ask about what size pellets they are using. Sometimes you will see ads in the UK listing choices of sizes. But this is not always the case and sometimes they have a hard time buying a particular size, so they stock up when they hit a winner.
I sorted by weight, but the weights were pretty close on most premium match pellets. So I quit now. Some have used clear pen tubes and marked where most pellets will stop and reject the rest.
b.b., would seem that your thoughts that while pellet seating my not make much difference on magnum…it does definitley seem to make a difference on a lower powered gun.
I don't have a chrony. The way I test how powerful one gun is to another is pretty neandrathal. My backstop is a 3/8 piece of dense particle board.
Of my basement shooters my Slavia is the most powerful…it will bury an RWS Hobby well into the particle board at 10m.
bb's for example leave a little dent before zinging back directly at your eyes (I actually wear milspec tactical glasses when shooting my bb guns).
So…after your test on the HyScore with pellet seater I tried my own test on the weekend.
I loaded up the Slavia as I usually do…pellet flush in the breach and, as always had a nicely buried pellet.
Than I loaded another an seated it about 1/8" in.
Holy Crap…completely through the particle board and nicely buried into the drywall behind it.
Tried it a couple more times (and with my XS-B9) and the same results.
Pellet seating definitley seems to increase power in a low powered gun.
CowBoyStar Dad
Wayne,
What you are doing is important to this blog. Please take a sharp picture of your sorted piles and let's you and me do a blog about it.
I haven't evaluated the link Kevin sent yet, but I can tell you that weight-sorting has been around for more than a century and it works.
We need to discuss this on the blog.
B.B.
CSD,
Wow! Now that's a result! And we know the relative velocity range of the 630/631. So seating goes higher than the weaklings, but probably not beyond 12 foot-pounds in .177 caliber.
Good stuff!
B.B.
B.B.
Well that sounds like fun! I will take some pics and take good notes as I learn this part of the game. I scoffed at it when the pros told me it was a must.. mostly because I'm not that good and my movements seem like a larger factor..
but then I thought.. what if I'm steady for a shot or two, and I missed cause the damn pellet is too light or heavy!.. so even for newbie shooters.. this might be something to think about..
I got a HP-100X scale on the recommendation of folks on the yellow, and it was only $44 or so… So, it's more about time, than money!
I'll email you my results and you can take it from there???
Wacky Wayne, Match Director, Ashland Air Rifle Range
Kevin,
I have read the pellet-sorting thread. It's great stuff. The "roll" he mentions was used by the late Rodney Boyce back in the 1990s. Dennis Quackenbush made a lucite gauge for me to do something similar when I wrote The Airgun Letter, but I found it too tedious for regular shooting.
The dot marking system is commonly used by Black Powder Cartridge competitors and is considered essential to accuracy, which is why single-shot guns are cap[able of greater accuracy that repeaters. Because their projectiles can be indexed.
When I buy lead bullets from some vendors they come with a small mark telling me how they were oriented in the mold they were cast in. Long-range black powder shooters all index their bullets this way. Or at least those who win do it.
I think Harry has written a splendid tutorial on pellet preparation for the ultimate in accuracy.
B.B.
Wayne,
Good deal!
B.B.
B.B.,
My airgun obessession last summer was long distance (107 yards) accuracy.
Since wind at my place typically started early I would wake up at daybreak to shoot in calm air. I would put the gun outside for at least 30 minutes to acclimate before beginning my long range testing/shooting.
Even in the summer we can have frost in the morning so I don't know how much of a factor my numb shooting finger played but it was a factor.
Harry gave me lots of advice in the form of these old posts. No surprise that some of these techniques may have been a compilation of other long range shooters idea's but I appreciated Harry putting them in one place.
Since I'm not afflicted with OCD I merely inspected and weighed my pellets. Made enough of a difference that I still do this. Although the link I provided by Harry touts the 15.8/15.9 gr JSB as the best .22 caliber long range pellet, since this article was written (2007) JSB developed the 18.1 gr and Harry now feels that the 18.1 gr JSB is the most accurate long range pellet fired from his JB BSA OZ #1. The 18.1 gr JSB's are the most accurate long range pellet in my long range gun (AA S410 rifle) as well.
Footnotes:
1-The JSB 15.8/15.9 is more accurate at long range than the JSB 18.1 gr in my AA S410 CARBINE. Suspect this is because of the lesser fps that my carbine shoots vs. my rifle. I know they shouldn't differ but mine do.
2-Both the JSB 15.8/15.9 and the JSB 18.1's are 5.52 mm head size. Coincidence?
Great topic you started today. Don't think most airgunners spend enough time understanding pellets in their individual guns. In my limited experience, if you crave accuracy it's critical.
kevin
meant to say harry's JB OZ #1 BSA Hornet. Amazing, regulated one of a kind from John Bowkett.
kevin
kevin, thanks for your link to harry's info about sorting pellets. it prompted me to search on the same site for info concerning "washing" pellets which was most helpful.
i see alot of individuals are concerned with "black (graphite) dust" found on pellets, but my concern is the rather "large" lead flakes that seem to appear in abundance on gamo pellets exclusively. they are found external and inside the skirts.
i purchased the gamo match pellets because of recommendations and ratings, but when i opened the pellet tins and saw lead "flake" laden pellets i told myself I would not use them in my guns.
does anyone know if after washing with soap and water, is the lubing necessary? i realize lubing keeps oxidaton at bay, but i would be willing to use a graphite powder lube at that point? anything is better than the flakes.
B.B.,
The reason I asked about slugging a bore was to determine the most accurate sized pellet to shoot because of your previous statment about the most accurate black powder bullet is 1 thousands larger than the bore size.
Thought applying that knowledge to seeing how it would work in air rifles.
B.B.
That's good that the Edge has such an accurate pellet. It's bad that the rifle appears to be pellet sensitive and even worse that the magic pellet which seems to work for all copies of the rifle is not available. That doesn't do us any good. I think it would be a smart move by Air Force to move heaven and earth to find this pellet and make it available in cooperation with PA.
I suspect you're right that the key element to accuracy is head diameter and not pellet design. This would be consistent with firearms where headspacing (the secret to low-cost Savage accuracy) is the determining factor compared to other accurizing strategies.
Matt61
BG_Farmer,
Here you go.
B30 offhand
3.25/1.25 in.
1.875 in.
2.125 in.
CTC = 2.24/1.57 in.
[URL=http://s415.photobucket.com/albums/pp235/blargho_2008/?action=view¤t=b3010.jpg][IMG]http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp235/blargho_2008/th_b3010.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
M1 offhand
m1101 – 2.875 in.
m1102 – 2.5 in.
m1103 – 2.5 in.
CTC = 2.3 in.
[URL=http://s415.photobucket.com/albums/pp235/blargho_2008/?action=view¤t=m110.jpg][IMG]http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp235/blargho_2008/th_m110.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
B30 rested
.75 in.
.975 in.
.625 in.
CTC = .60 in.
[IMG]http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp235/blargho_2008/b3010p.jpg[/IMG]
Naturally, photobucket couldn't leave well enough alone with a single link for each photo but made the process much more complicated. There's only room and time enough for one photo of all the groups (the grid squares are one inch on a side). You'll have to trust me for the measurements although I have closeups of each group with a photo.
For the B30 offhand, you'll notice with group 1, a flier way out there with Pluto. Alas, duellists cannot ignore fliers as we know from Ryan O'Neal's film Barry London, the tale of a rogue in 18th century England. At the end, the O'Neal character is challenged by his wimpy by vengeful stepson, Lord Bullington. The deal is that the duellists fire alternately at each other with the order determined by a coin toss! The other guy has to stand his ground and can only turn sideways. Distance is not great–something like 10m!
Lord Bullington gets the first shot but he is so clueless with pistols that his discharges prematurely (drat those flintlocks). He says, "I must have another," but the presiders say, "That counts as your shot." Lord Bullington heads to the wall for copious vomiting. Then, Ryan O'Neal purposely fires his pistol into the ground. The referees ask, "Lord Bullington, have you received satisfaction?" And the answer is…."No!" Anyway, everything must count. I put the group size without flier after the backslash along with the adjusted CTC value but only the unadjusted figures count.
To be continued…
contd.
You'll notice that the M1 Garand group is smaller than the B30 which is kind of weird since I've put many thousands more shots through the B30. Comparing the M1 value to the adjusted B30 value makes more sense. The offhand groups indicate I'm shooting somewhere between 6-8 minutes offhand which is consistent with my extensive test of the IZH 61 at 5m.
Just for fun, I've added benched groups at 25 yards for the B30. This is a considerable improvement over the disgraceful groups I shot against Wayne a long time ago that averaged over an inch CTC. As I found later, the B30 had a spring broken in three pieces as well as a lot of internal rust. I'd say that the new groups prove that BAM can build parts and that Rich Imhoff can tune them. Shooting off a bench makes me understand what pcp shooters complain about with springers. The recoil is much more pronounced than standing and my forward lens cap kept falling off from the recoil which never happens offhand–I assume because the position is softer and absorbs more recoil. It took me well over 50 shots to get the hang of benched shooting and get the groups under an inch. However, I now believe that the B30 is capable of much better.
Overall, I'm most pleased that offhand shooting with airguns at 5m translates uncannily well to any kind of gun (the M1 representing an extreme of highpower) at just about any distance. The MOA group sizes are very consistent.
Matt61
Mr. B.,
I wasn't snapping at you, though my comment may have read that way. I was just stating fact. Nobody slugs airgun bores.
If they were to they would need the largest-diameter .177 pellet available. Maybe an Enu Jin dome? Or one of the solid "pellets."
B.B.
Alan,
I think the RWS 54 is a great choice. The RWS 48 series is wonderful and the 54 is even better than that. Blog postings indicate that accuracy is equivalent to the TX200 and lags only in the finish and trigger. The jump and recoil of a springer are fun (although dampened in the case of the 54), but I have nothing against the lack of recoil in my gas guns or SSPs. You can't go wrong either way.
Bristolview, for tips on advanced shooting, you can read David Tubb's book, The Rifle Shooter which has everything you need to know. I finished this awhile ago and have been meaning to review it. This book is a gem. Just like Jack Dempsey's manual on boxing, when you have a great performer put down his knowledge in a full, clear, and systematic way, you have a real treasure. Everything is in there on shooting technique and every technical aspect of guns (firearms).
I should add that I believe that Tubb is like Miyamoto Musashi ultimate Japanese swordsman who wrote down in his knowledge in The Book of Five Rings. Tubb also makes sense of this otherwise incomprehensible book in the process of reproducing it. The first ring has to do with equipment which Musashi describes metaphorically in terms of building a house. This is also where I would place our discussion about the technical aspects of guns. Tubb does this in spades.
Rings 2-4 are more ephemeral. Titled "Fire," "Wind" and something else, they are about techniques for using equipment. A lot of it is esoterica of Japanese swordfighting that is no longer relevant (the "hopping crow step"). The message is that a lot of different techniques work. But the underlying theme is that you want to use the most natural movements possible. This corresponds to the natural point of aim principle.
The last ring is only a page long, and its message is to repose in nothing (where you find the cosmic gulf filled with love???). I take this to mean using your subconscious to shoot which Tubb talks about as well as Nancy Tompkins. It's also my belief that Tubb's maniac sense of detail of everything is not important so much for its physical effects but it is his personal way of getting to his subconscious. Nancy Tompkins method is to play music. Both also talk about visualization. Anyway, the Tubb book as well as Nancy Tompkins book on prone rifle shooting contain what you want from the very best.
Matt61
From the weekend, gun safety: what an interesting topic. The demonstration on the lettuce head is interesting and matches what one of the range officers at the local range said while in a fit at someone who was handling his weapon with people downrange. "We should do what we used to do. Put fruit downrange and shoot them. They explode and that's what your head would do!"
I have additional suggestions. I ascribe to the saying that the best way to get someone to do something is to expect them to do it. Along these lines, you (father) can do a great deal as a role model for conscientious gun safety who can head off problematical behavior by serving as a good example. But this by itself is not enough, especially if there are bad habits to detrain from nerf guns.
From my observations and experience on orderly behavior which you might call discipline, it seems that the ultimate key (sort of the way headspacing is so important for accuracy) is being consistent. One way to apply this is with the Korean method for teaching archery. People practice the correct drawing technique for months or even years before getting to actually shoot. You can have your son prove beyond a doubt that he observes gun safety before you supply the ammo.
As for infractions, again consistency is key. I do believe that yelling screaming and histrionics are often useless if not counterproductive. My brother, teaching a junior high school class from hell, reported to me that they would say, "But we like it when the teachers yell. You should see Mr. so and so. His face gets all red and the veins stand out on his forehead!" If there is a safety infraction, just take the gun a way for a long painful time–weeks, months, a year. The main thing is to show that nothing in God's earth will alter the penalty, no excuses, pleading, promises, nothing. The finality will be that of death itself which is what you are dealing with after all. It reminds me of the drill sergeant in the book The Forgotten Soldier: "Here everything is hard. Nothing is forgiven. And in consequence you must have quick reflexes." No need to be a sadist like him, but he was onto something (and he did get results.) More positively, you can see this behavior as impressing a child with the importance of the activity and most young people, and just about everyone else for that matter is on the hunt for what is important.
Anyway, those are some ideas on gun safety. I'm free to speculate since I'm not a parent and that is probably just as well. (It would cut into my helicopter time among other things.)
Matt61
TS45,
I believe this post shows we've been a little naive about Chinese manufacturing practices. I've experienced them as much as anyone with my B30. I believe our theory is that the capability is there but not the managerial and culture controls for consistent quality. Well, obviously there is a high cultural value on good workmanship. I can't imagine a Crosman or Air Force employee sounding quite like what we heard. The final combination, as Abraham Lincoln, would say, has not been found yet by the Chinese. But clearly the ingredients are there for very consistent high quality, and it's really just a matter of time before it appears.
Matt61
I'll be darned… I never got around to find out why I perferred a tin of .22 JSB exacts over AA when they are the same pellet….or are they really?
I didn't think about the tag on the bottom.
ah ha…..AA 5.51 vs JSB 5.52
Generally I get 4.52 and 5.52 when possible. Also, this has been the general sizes my JSB from PA have arrived.
I love Eun Jin 32.4 gr points when I crank up the discovery…….I do have to rock the bolt a little for smooth loading….If they were swagged just a hair …that would be cool…then again…maybe they wouldn't be as accurate.
Matt,
You did well, I think, and beat me handily, although those are some small holes:). Here's what I measured just now, with links to scans. Note that there are errors on the targets, including the date and the "eyeball"(must have been goofball:)) measurements.
Group #1 = ~2.25" CtC
http://picasaweb.google.com/BGFarmer0/KentuckyLongRifle#5402651566385861394
Group #2 = ~3.375" CtC
http://picasaweb.google.com/BGFarmer0/KentuckyLongRifle#5402651569025381970
Group #3 = ~3.375" CtC
http://picasaweb.google.com/BGFarmer0/KentuckyLongRifle#5402651572194802866
Average: ~3" CtC
From these groups, you'll see there was the hope of quite a bit better, but apparently I was too busy with filing the sight (POI moves b/t targets) and various other distractions (from the note it looks like I changed patching):). Not to make excuses, though, as that was the state of the art at the time for me, and number 4 is always a flier for me (must be ADD):).
I'm not too surprised the M1 shot as well or better than the B30 — barrel time is a tiny fraction, right, or am I missing something?
Congratulations, but I will demand a rematch someday:).
Another person with a question to the Blogger account:
Hello Tom!
My name is casey & i own some air-guns that im not happy with and would like to trade and or sell. i live in ft worth texas and have been very interested in air-guns for a while but could never get the right one for me.
Anyway, to make this long story short I've owned:
crosman 760 pump
daisy powerline
crosman nightstalker
daisy grizzley pump
and currently own:
Winchester 1000x break action
Daisey Red Ryder
Air Force Talon SS
i would like to know the best way or place to sell or trade airguns in my area or online. i purchased the talon ss from pyramid air 1 year ago and still have not shot it but maybe 50 pellets out of it. please help get me on the right path
thank you
Casey D. Walker
B.B.
Slinging Lead,
Thanks for your concern, but I was only offering because Volvo had impressed me by trying it first:). Anyway, if its a PCP, that's too high end for me:).
Casey,
If you cannot attend an airgun show then here are the two free classified airgun ads I use:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/
http://www.airguns.net/classifieds/classifieds.php
B.B.
BB,
I misread the Favorite gun contest prize and thought others might as well. I thought it said the winner would get a S200. When I clicked on the contest rules I saw that it was a $200 gift certificate. I don't know if others will misread that like I did.
For the contest, does the gun need to be something Pyramid currently sells?
David Enoch
David,
I've already written demanding my free S200 for pain and suffering:).
The essence of what can/cannot be included in the stories are in rule No. 16:
Stories may not mention any other merchant.
Stories must be about vintage or modern airguns or airsoft guns that were produced (no stories about guns you would like to see produced).
Stories containing illegal, unsafe or dangerous ideas or concepts will not be eligible.
Stories containing graphic content about hunting or any type of injury will not be eligible.
Stories must be written in English.
Please read the rest of the rules. After all, you don't want to be disqualified on a technicality.
Edith
In an earlier Edge post, I mentioned the exceptional groups I'd shot with my Challenger PCP.
I was testing pellets, and while I was going quite well with the R10 Heavies, the R10 lights produced some excellent four-round groups:
http://chandlerwrites.com/images/target1.jpg
http://chandlerwrites.com/images/target1a.jpg
I realize this isn't an Edge test, but it seemed like as good a place as any to catch up to the subject.
Is 2010 going to be the year of the 10 meter airgun?
Matt61,the book of five rings!A fantastic book…I am not surprised.You have very good taste,my friend!FWIW,Youtube search of"japanese waterstones"should keep you buisy for weeks…sharpening your technique. Frank B
Trout Underground,
It may be the year of the 10-meter gun. And Air Arms is playing, too.
B.B.
Mr. B:
Thanks for the advice on vaporizing a cabbage to teach my son some respect for his new gun. Trouble is I fear whatever I buy won't have as dramatic an effect as your 357 and the howitzer you shot the 52 grain slug from. Still, I'll give it some thought. Perhaps a head-sized melon with a hollowpoint…
Alan in MI:
Sorry I hadn't read enough yet to know you existed. As the Alan-come-lately I'll henceforth be 'Alan in FL' and you can go back to being plain Alan again!
Slingin lead:
Man, you're right about the indecision when buying your first real gun in the $600 class. I think I may have been hasty when I discarded all sightless guns out of hand – for sure I'm gonna get a scope anyway. Still, it bothers me. So now I'm seriously considering hopping on the TX200 bandwagon.
So now it's between the Diana 54 and the TX200. Oh man.
Kevin:
Thanks for the point to Roland Martens' site. Everybody seems to agree that the Maccari spring kit is a good idea for the 54. Although I'm pretty handy with tools I hesitate to venture that on a new gun and void my warranty.
BB:
Will PA do this modification for me in house on a new 54 and still give me a warranty on it? Speaking of warranties- Diana offers two years on the 54 and RWS limited lifetime. How does that compute?
Matt61:
I'm TOTALLY in agreement with your views on discipline/ punishment. You are definitely ready to be a dad. Give the helicopters a rest!
BB:
I will go for 22 cal. Either an AA TX200 Mk III or a Diana 54. Your vote, sir?
-Alan in FL
Alan,
RWS 54 is my vote. No, Pyramyd AIR doesn't sell Maccari stuff so they will not do any modifications for you. But the 54 shouldn't need them for a long time. I have only ever shot factory-tuned 54s and they are pretty darn smooth.
B.B.
b.b., why can't you guys be in Canada?
I ordered some accessories for my boys airsofts (front grips, lights) about an hour ago.
Got a confirmantion right away and now just received confirmation that they've shipped.
Awesome…
CowBoyStar Dad
B.B.:
Thanks for your vote. I am surprised. From everything I'd read I had bet with myself that you'd come down on the side of the TX200.
Thanks for the point to the safety info and your superb 3-part series on understanding, mounting and sighting in a scope.
-Alan in FL
Alan,
That was because you said .22 caliber. Say .177 and I switch choices.
B.B.
Ah, the 54 vs. the TX200MkIII
The very two rifles considered when I wanted to move up from the Crosman 1377. I remember that bit of hand wringing well.
Alan, I think you are purposely drawing out this agonizing choice for some sort of masochistic satisfaction.
You can't go wrong either way. Ultimately I got spooked by the sledge system on the 54 for no good reason and went with the TX200. Also I am notoriously shallow, and the beauty of the TX stock cannot be overstated. Accuracy is superb.
BB may not have done the sighting in a scope video yet, but he has covered the topic well:
/article/All_about_scopes_Part_3_April_2005/22
zeroing distances:
/blog/2005/06/at-what-range-should-you-zero-your-scope/
/blog/2007/10/why-are-there-two-zero-points-when-sighting-in-a-scope/
/blog/2006/7/sighting-in-a-scope-dont-get-carried-away/
Finally here is an article that explains AO better than I did. Side benefit I forgot to mention: rangefinding!
/article/What_does_AO_mean_September_2005/25
OK one last thing then I'll stop.
I just stumbled across this yesterday.
BB reveals his secret identity (and evil plans for world domination;)
/blog/2007/10/who-am-i/
B.B.,
I don't feel that you snapped at me. I was just trying to figure out if it is good/bad/waste of time to determine the diameter of my bores and look for the appropriate sized pellet.
Mr B.
There was crisis at the household of the People's Republic of NJ just now. The wifey spied some type of beetle on the kitchen ceiling and demanded I dispatch the vermin. It was my big chance. Between coughing my lungs out, I ran down to the basement and seized my Discovery. Cocking the rifle without inserting a pellet (boys and girls, don't try this with your break barrels), I took the TKO equipped muzzle brake rifle and took put the muzzle several inches from the beetle and blasted it into oblivion. No marks on the ceiling, a simple tissue to pick the now deceased critter from the floor and into the kitchen garbage.
A merciful kill well done. I'm leaving the rifle up here in the family room in case another crises presents itself!
My thanks to Edith and BB for informing the blog of this surefire way to get rid of household vermin.
Fred PRoNJ
I purchased the Gamo Big Cat. I see that the old cat had a 4x scope and new have a 9x scope. Are there any changes between the older and newer, such as trigger or spring?
I used the 4x scope and after shooting half of the gold gamo amo, the poi went crazy. Is that the classic broken scope?
Is the 9x scope any better than the 4x? and why sell a scope that will break so soon??????
Big Cat
If your trigger is plastic, than it is the newer trigger.
Check all your mounts to make sure they are tight, and evenly seated and have a good scope stop.
Then try some good ammo. Gamo's much hyped PBA ammo is notoriously inaccurate. Try some JSBs or some CPs.
B.B.,
For this last set of pellet testing on the Edge, did you use the stock 12" barrel, or did you use the 18" (which provided the best groups in your last test report)?
Trout Underground,
Those are excellent groups with the Challenger! It would be interesting to see what a 10 shot group looks like.
Regards,
Victor
BG_Farmer,
You do have a consistent flier that radically changes the outcome. If you were altering your sight between shots, I guess that would have an effect…. A rematch is welcome any time. I need to get my Savage out there, and I believe I like this long-distance shooting with the B30. And the zen mindset needs some work.
There are trade-offs with the M1. Barrel time is shorter, but the recoil is much more powerful. My follow-through was in tatters. Overall, the B30 felt more familiar to shoot.
FrankB, I have some waterstones in mind already, but first I'm going to work on technique. My new Russian leather strop seems to be making my knives duller! I'm sending off for the Japanese bladesmith's dvds today.
Trout Underground, those groups are pretty hot. They're as good as anything posted by the Edge and the pellet is actually available. There were numbers of Mosin-Nagants at the range the other day. The local Big 5 has been selling them for as cheap as $100.
Fred, didn't you get fearsome rebounding with the Discovery? I guess it would depend on the backstop.
Matt61
Those are excellent groups with the Challenger! It would be interesting to see what a 10 shot group looks like.
Victor, groups like the two shown were *very* repeatable; I've got three sheets of five-bull targets I could scan for you where the groups (different pellets) aren't a whole lot bigger.
The difference between the "good" and "bad" premium pellets was miniscule.
Cheaper pellets (like the Crosman "Match" pellets – a case of false advertising if I ever saw one) didn't fare so well, but I guess that's the point of testing.
I'm very happy with the Challenger, and while the Edge offers up a few very interesting features, the Challenger looks marginally more "normal" and I'm happy with it.
Now if I could only get my $%*&&* Marauder to shoot well…
Trout Underground,
Actually, I'm not surprised that the Challenger shoots so well. I've written a bit about my own personal preferences towards it.
While I haven't fired one, I did get a chance to hold one at the Shot Show a couple of weeks ago. It was as substantial as I expected it to be.
I also got a chance to check out the Edge, and liked it also. I'm just partial to air rifles that are closer to precision class in feel and weight.
I took a buddy of mine to check out both the Challenger and Edge. He's an Olympic, World, and Pan American games champion, and has held many world records, including with high power. He's retired from competition now, but works with kids gettng started in shooting. He'd never heard of sporter class, so I thought I'd introduce him to it. I explained the benefits of both the Edge and Challenger, and explained how they are game changers, in my opinion. He was very pleased with both, and the ideas and goals behind sporter class shooting.
Great shooting! I'm sure you're going to have a heck of a time with your Challenger.
Regards,
Victor
Oh, one last thing. I've tested the Crossman "Match" pellets and found them to be very "interesting". They don't produce tight groups, and the patterns are amazingly uniformly random, no matter the condition (gun, power, etc.).
A cheap set of Daisy pellets will shoot a tigher group, but with guarenteed occassional flyer, because the pellets themselves are highly irregular.
B.B.,
Have you tried the Beretta Ultra Match .177 Cal, 7.7 Grains, Wadcutter, 500ct?
/product/beretta-ultra-match-177-cal-7-7-grains-wadcutter-500ct?p=647#readReviews
I've gotten good results with them. Give them a try some time. I think you'll be pleased.
Regards,
Victor
Matt,
Rematch anytime; it was fun, as I hardly ever have an actual structural pretext for shooting. I toyed with the idea of redoing my groups as I threatened, but given how little you can get to shoot at that range, it seemed fair to go with the first thing.
Filing the sight b/t groups shouldn't have changed the group size — I just meant it was one of the several distractions I was trying to master at that time:). If I remember correctly, the benched groups then were about 1.75" (including the flier), probably because the bore was rough and still cutting patches, and the patches I was using were too thin, a problem that TwoTalon helped me diagnose. Anyway, lots of excuses, but that's reality:).
My 4th shot flier is actually a "penultimate" flier, i.e., shot_(n-1) in a group of n shots. The weird thing is that it scales, although I've been working on that too. Fundamentally, I'm still a squirrel and knothole shooter:).
The .30-06 is amazing, probably surpassed in one area or the other by many different cartridges, but it would be the one to have if you could only have one:). Getting over the noise and recoil takes time and conscious effort, though — try shooting only until you feel the least bit tired (stretching it as you can); also try shooting an air rifle for a while before shooting the M1, i.e., trick your body:). Someday you can take the M1 to Camp Perry.
Keep up with the 5M practice — it seems to be working well. I suspect we both will be improved next time.
Victor,
Try the Crosman Copperhead Wadcutters — if the rifle likes them, they are actually pretty good for $2.99/500:).
Victor,
I used the 12-inch barrel that comes with the Edge for this test.
B.B.
Victor,
No, I haven't tried Beretta Ultra Match wadcutters. Do you happen to know who makes them?
B.B.
Victor:
If you think it's hard to stand up to a .30-06 M1 under target shooting conditions and when the slightest bit tired, think of all those guys in the jungles of the South Pacific and the winter foxholes of Europe who killed a heckuva lot of our enemies with one.
B.B.,
No I don't know who makes them. On the tin, it says
"ULTRA MATCH"
"Specially selected for Beretta C02 pistols"
Then at the very bottom it says, "Made in Germany".
What I do know is that I bought them at Pyramyd AIR.
Regards,
Vitor
Victor,
Probably H&N, then.
Thanks,
B.B.
Anonymous,
I believe you should be referring to BG_Farmer. Although your point is well taken The M1 is really something! Every shot is an experience! Fun to shoot, but I'd hate to shoot one of those all day. And as BG_Farmer indicated, going from an air rifle to an M1 is like dry firing.
Regards,
Victor
I would like to get my hands on a couple of Daisy Red Ryder Good Luck Arrowhead charms for the grandkids. I had one when I was growing up and I am unable to find any now. Any suggestions and any information about them would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Anonymous,
I won't be of much help to you but have you tried e-bay? You might also try
http://www.network54.com.
Where you have posted your comment is on an older blog that was first published February 1st. Not many of us monitor the older blogs. There are a core of volunteers, of which I am one, who do so. My last suggestion is to go to the current blog which can be found at:
/blog//
and post your question there. You'll get much more responses and perhaps someone might even have one that they'd part with.There is a new blog Monday through Friday so when you do post under comments, double-check that you are doing so for the latest blog as this software tends to put the entire month in the screen. The latest blog will be the top most one.
Please join us on the blog. We look forward to your participation and off-topic comments are always welcome.
Fred PRoNJ
Fred,
Congradulations on the tree rats, esp. w/o alerting the rest of the house!
Do you have the "power" mod in your Discovery?
Mr B.
Fred,
Congradulations on the tree rats, esp. w/o alerting the rest of the house!
Do you have the "power" mod in your Discovery?
Mr B.
Boy am I having trouble finding a question I asked over the week-end about which of the blowback BB only pistols had the best trigger. I just really don't know how the blog works. I have puramydair.com. blog book marked. When I click it takes me to refillable CO2 and on the top the date is Feb 22. I click on the bottom where is has 85 comments and come to here. Up at the top on right under archives is has the months list and current blog. I have tried to find my ? under both Feb and Current, no joy. Assuming I can find this again will someone tell me how to find the present/latest/current blog? I am posting this under the one with 85 comments.
SteveJ,
I vaguely remember the question you asked, but I don't remember which post you asked it on. You might try using the search box at the upper right corner of the blog to find it.
As to reaching the current day's blog. I believe that you are getting hung up on the fact that /blog// typically has the last week or so posts on it. You have to carefully page down to the end of the top post, not to the very bottom of the page. At the end of the top post, you'll see "posted by B.B. Pelletier @ 5:30 AM 20 Comments" or something very similar. That line has two hyperlinks that you can use to comment. I usually use the "@ 5:30 AM" link and just reload that page throughout the day to get new comments as they appear.
Hope this helps.
Bobby
SteveJ,
I forgot to menion that the search box works for not only the posts that BB writes, but the comments that people leave as well.
Bobby
Mr. B,
no power adjuster installed on the Disco. Never thought I had a need for it but that TKO trigger mod is great!
Fred PRoNJ
Steve,
Nobody did answer your question on triggers of BB guns. That much I can tell you.
B.B.
Fred,
Thanks. Yes the TKO trigger mod is the way to go–incredable cost to benefit ratio. I've read about folks using the "power " adjuster to tune the gun's shot count to a specific pellet. Haven't done that with mine either.
I've used the power adjuster on my Talon SS to run CO2 and HPA with one mil dot of elevation difference between them. CO2 for plinking and HPA for the possums simply by changing out the bottles in less than a minute. (windage stays the same)
Mr B.
BB I'm sure you have been asked about something like this before but thought I would ask again. You said the top 3 BB accurate pistols were the Sig Sauer SP, Tanfoglio and the Makarov, which you have a "real" Mak. So if you were getting your first BB pistol for yourself to keep which of these 3 would you get. Or would forget about accuracy and get a CP99 Compact just for the fun of it. By the way there is a guy over on the Crosman forum that has really moded the Mak into a powerful accurate BB pistol. Steve
Steven
That's a no-brainer for me. The Mak from Umarex. Nothing else.
B.B.
How does the Edge rifle load? I've been looking around but can't find anything that says how you load a pellet into the breach.
Anonymous Edge Loader
From the Airforce owner's manual:
"To load a pellet, cock the rifle and leave the bolt forward, exposing the breech. Push a pellet ALL THE WAY into the breech with your thumb or a pellet-seating tool. This is important, because a pellet not pushed in all the way can hold the valve open when the rifle fires, exhausting all the air from the tank.
After loading, slide the bolt all the way back and rotate it into either notch at the rear of the cocking slot. This indicates the bolt is all the way back.
To fire, mount the rifle to your shoulder, take aim, release the safety and squeeze the trigger until the rifle discharges."
Hope this helps.