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Field target for the rest of us

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Hi, guys. I DID have a blog for today…but, when Edith showed me this one, I realized this was the perfect Friday “get the gab started” piece. For those who don’t remember, Edith is Mrs. B.B. Pelletier, and she’s giving me the day off.

by Edith Gaylord (Mrs. B.B.)

Tom used to be the match director for the field target club we helped start at our Izaak Walton League in Damascus, Maryland (often called the “Dam Ikes”). I didn’t participate in the matches but was happy to register the shooters, collect the money, recheck the score sheets and post the match results on our website. Well, I was uninterested in shooting field target until they invented the Wacky Match!

No rules…just right
The Wacky Match was a field target match that had no rules. You might say it was an unmatch…or even a mismatch.

It didn’t have a lot of participants because most field target shooters are serious about the sport. They’d invested a significant amount of money into their guns and gear, and some had spent several hours on the road to get to the match. It wasn’t a time for silliness.

The targets were set up the morning of the match, which was a half-size match. We wanted to finish early enough to enjoy the cookout provided by the club. It was their way of thanking the shooters for supporting them during the match year.

My weapon of choice
A shooter could use any airgun (20 ft-lbs or less…to preserve the targets), scope, sight or support he wanted. I selected a Sharp U-SL CO2 rifle with a thumbhole stock. I’d shot it before in our basement and really liked how it felt, it came easily to my shoulder and it was more accurate than I was (not a great feat, but still important). I used open sights because I don’t especially like scopes (more on that in a future blog). I had spare CO2 cartridges in my pocket and kept my pellets in a pouch hung around my neck. I traveled light and was ready for anything. Oh, yes, there was one more piece of equipment.

I brought a chair, because I wanted to sit while shooting. This was a special chair…one that I’d used while shooting BRV (which I’ll write about at another time). It’s comfortable, collapsible and steady on uneven ground. The first Wacky Match was held in October, and the ground was moist. I don’t like sitting on icky, wet ground covered with creeping critters I can’t identify and who-knows-what hiding under the damp leaves.

edith-wacky_match

Here I am holding a great little airgun. I LOVE this Sharp rifle. It’s lightweight, not very long, powered by 12-gram CO2 cartridges and–most importantly–quite accurate.

No one’s keeping score
The foundation of the Wacky Match was that everyone was a winner. This was about fun, not results. Yet, I remember what I shot. I smacked a number of target faceplates, which didn’t count as hits, and knocked down only two targets (yes, I had a score of 2 out of 30). I bet I could have done better if I’d thrown rocks! Thank goodness I’m a better shot when it really counts…with my .45 ACP.

I didn’t shoot in all of the Wacky Matches because CO2 isn’t cold-friendly. One Wacky Match was held in January, with a fresh layer of snow…and then it started snowing during the match! Come to think of it, I should have shot that match…it would have been the perfect excuse for such a low score. I guess I really am an airgunner–always blame the equipment!

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.
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169 thoughts on “Field target for the rest of us”

  7. Mrs. Pelletier,

    So…your involvement with this craziness goes way back?!!

    I really like that you embrace one of Tom’s passions. A key to mutual happiness in my book. Your “confessions” of involvement in the airgun world are greatly appreciated and shared with my wife. I consider each of your posts to be a stepping stone for my wife to join me in this “wacky world”.

    Thank you.

    kevin

  8. Most Happy New Year Edith & Tom,

    I'm glad to hear I'm not the only "Wacky"…. at least there is a "Wacky field target contest".. I don't feel alone anymore.. That's where I should start out as well!!

    Our first match this month, will probably be in the snow too! It might as well be a free for all!! Anything goes except shotguns.. Well anything under 20 ft lbs…

    My idea of putting wheels on my "Wacky Wayne Waziboy" is not too far off base.. I'll be playing catch up to you Edith…

    Tom,
    How did YOU get such a beautiful wife?

    Nice must really count a lot!

    Wacky Wayne, typing from the Wacky Wayne Wonderful Waziboy…

  9. Wayne,

    RE: B.B. convincing a beautiful woman to marry him

    I’ve lived long enough to realize that there are some mysteries in the universe that will never be solved by man.

    kevin

  12. Edith, I can’t help but wonder how on EARTH Tom ever kept his mind on anything else! I can also see why he was too nervous to kiss you on your first date.

    And Tom, as to WHY you waited ’til the 2nd date to propose I’ll never know… you’re lucky she didn’t slip through your fingers, waitin’ so long like that…

  14. Edith,
    I enjoyed your blog. You shoot airguns outside in the winter time?! What kind of a sport am I getting into?

    Wacky Match sounds like fun just by the name of it. Did you also have wacky targets? What is BRV that you’re going to write about later and I am curious why you don’t like scopes, or is it that you already have enough circular scars around your right eye?

    Say, you’re not the one who threw Tom’s expensive custom airgun on the ground at that gun show because the scope smacked ’em, are you? Just kidding, I think that was a young brat…er, boy…but I shudder every time I think about that.

    One of my grandsons was complaining about my scoped IZH-61 hitting him in the eye on recoil (so I lengthened the pull). I guess it’s a matter of scale on body mass. I don’t notice the recoil so much but he gets smacked. Hmmm…maybe that means he’s better at the artillery hold than me. Dang kids! You teach them everything you know and they just end up better than you.

    -Chuck

  15. Peepsight,

    The Discovery has a fiberoptic front sight. They are not good with peep sights. They are made for open sight notches.

    As far as fitting goes, the Beeman Sport Aperture will work.

    The Crosman 64 is specially made for the 392 and Blue/Silver Streak. It mounts with screws so you would have to drill and tap the Disco receiver.

    B.B.

  17. Kevin,

    My involvement with airguns as a way of making a living goes back to 1992. Tom bemoaned the fact that there was very little written about airgunning. I told him we should start our own newsletter. He didn’t think he could fill a monthly publication, so he took a legal pad and listed topics he could write about. Thirty minutes later, he had a long list and had barely scratched the surface. There was no way I could be part of publishing airgun literature without learning something about it. We started our publishing our monthly newsletter in March 1993, and the rest is history.

    Edith

  18. B.B.

    It was just a rumor then.. I thought I heard you traded for one…

    Aye, Aye Captain… I'm back to practice.. But Edith gave me a great idea… I'm selling the USFT and AAs410.. so I can shoot FT with the S&W 586 CO2 revolver…

    Then I'll have an excuse for my poor shooting ability…

    Wayne,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  20. CJr,

    I think the Wacky Matches were held outside the normal timeframe for field target matches. You had to be wacky to come out in that weather! The one I mentioned that had a fresh layer of snow was the last one I attended. It was in January. In Maryland. Brrrrrr!

    BRV was a benchrest sport for airguns. I’ll write about it in a future guest blog.

    I don’t like scopes because I’m righthanded and left-eye dominant. It took us many years to figure that out because Tom never thought about it when he gave me a scoped gun to shoot, and I never knew I was different than anyone else!

    Edith

  22. Hey all,

    I,m working on a trade for a pair of pistols.. (since Randy won't let me have the S&W 586 back).. Robert on the yellow has these:
    Crossman 600 and Predom Lucznik air pistols..
    The Blue Book of Airguns says "the 600 is considered by many as the pinnacle of Crosman airgun development" and Lucznik "is more sturdy than precise. The guns are infamous for unavailability of parts… copy of the Walther LP 53"

    That's the only listing for the company.. seems like one to collect..

    Priced well too, it seems, at $325 for the pair..(as far as the blue book says) and he might want to trade.. better still.. I've sent him an email, but he must be out.. no reply yet..

    I sure have met some nice folks on the Yellow.. the BOI keeps everyone trading pretty honest..

    What do ya think guys and gals?

    Wacky Wayne

  23. Wayne,

    Working Crosman 600s have settled back in price a bit from their high point a few years back. A working one sells for around $200. Then condition drives the price up.

    The Polish pistol sold for $50 a year ago, but they are all gone now, so expect the price to rise to $100.

    B.B.

  25. Just picked up that Diana 26 at the same shop… and I took a peak behind the counter, and saw something else that caught my eye. So I also ended up getting a very used (but still functioning) Daisy 717 for $10.

    This fellow also had what looked like an old CO2 BB pistol that was strongly patterned after a Luger. It takes ‘those little CO2 cartridges that you can only get from a beer distributor’ (NOT the standard Powerlets – the guy knew what they were). Virtually certain it wasn’t a Crosman or Daisy – but unfortunately I neglected to bring in my glasses, so I couldn’t see or read anything pertaining to the make or model. It was quite old, though. One thing I do remember about it – you didn’t pop a grip off to install the cartridge. You completely unscrew the CO2 knob on the bottom of the grip and slide it in that way.

  27. Vince,
    Recently read your guest blog on shimming a Diana breech seal and tried it out on my 34 Panther with great success !! Also just got a Ruger Air Hawk for a Christmas present from the wife and want to do the same thing to it.. Since both rifles take basically the same o-ring…. Was wondering if you knew the McMaster Carr part # for the o-ring so I could buy a bag of a 100 instead of paying Umarex 5 bucks for just one of them …> Thank you for all the help and knowledge !!

  28. Wayne,

    As long as the Predom Lucznik pistol is more or less complete, it’s an easy gun to keep running for a long time. All the seals are leather. Not much to go wrong.

    The Crosman 600 is a honey of a pistol. Expect about 33 to 35 shots on a 12 gram cartridge. If you get one, let me know and I’ll send you a longer barrel to improve the velocity and accuracy.

    Derrick

  29. Edith,
    Here’s a trick you can master easily to train any eye to be dominant if you wear corrective lenses. And, you can wear normal off the shelf eye protection like everybody else.

    As I entered my bifocal years I found that hard bifocal contact lenses were not for me, however, I could wear one soft contact lens for distance in whichever eye I chose and leave the other eye “naked” for reading. I am nearsighted so this works for me. My left eye is 125 and my right eye is 250. I don’t see why it wouldn’t also work with farsightedness. Whatever combination of lenses you get you want to make sure you can see distance with the eye you want dominant and be able to read with the other. I do not experience any depth perception problems doing this.

    It is odd for the first few days or so but your brain learns to adjust. I can even switch eyes if need be and now my brain automatically adjusts. This works fine for my daily living, however, the downside in my combination is that when I see distance clearly a scope works great but the open sights of an airgun are not clear. I think for open sights I can get another prescription that will allow me lose a little on distance and allow me to see close better but I haven’t pursued that yet. My Dr. mentioned it but I wasn’t ready for that.

    I suggest soft lenses because they are so much easier to get used to and are more comfortable than hard ones. If you have a severe astigmatism, soft lenses may not work, in which case, hard lenses will have to do. However, rather than take an eye doctor’s word for it I’d try it anyway because the type of astig. you have may not affect shooting.

    If you attempt this, and get soft lenses, I would suggest you also buy a pack of daily wear lenses ($30 for 30 days for one eye) for the eye you have selected so you don’t have to worry about losing one in the field. However, soft lenses do not pop out like hard ones will and soft lenses are not as affected by dust as hard ones are in my experience.

    I use this technique when I go scuba diving so I can see the fishies and my gauges at the same time and not have to fuss with prescription dive masks.

    Some people are skittish about sticking something in their eye but you just have to resolve that shooting is more important.

    -Chuck

  31. CJr,

    Thanks for the tip. I don’t wear contacts, but I do wear glasses these days. However, my New Year’s resolution is to shed my glasses completely with the help of these books: “Improve Your Vision Without Glasses or Contact Lenses” and “The Bates Method for Better Eyesight Without Glasses.”

    Thanks,
    Edith

  32. Derrick,

    That sounds great.. Thanks for the info and encouragement… I will take you up on the barrel too.. but
    I still have heard nothing from the seller… holidays I guess..

    Wayne

  33. B.B.

    I only get to this blog about once per week, so thanks for the advice on the Axsor pump lube. I was able to order some.

    I also read Jane Hansen’s note on pellet cleaning. We started using Kel Spray when we lived in RI. Kel is a US-made spray found in hardware stores.

    In RI, ranges are rare, and basement shooting is common. A house had problems selling because RI tests for lead. The lead was not from the paint, but from lead-pellet dust. I don’t know how that was resolved, but a group of us concerned shooters asked a gun-friendly URI professor for advice, and he suggested Kel spray. The solvents in Kel are grease-cutting metal cleaners. The lubricant is a very thin pure silicone. We just empty the tin onto a paper towel, spray everything down and wipe lightly. (you can see loads of crud on the towel). Once clean, back into the tin with a little more Kel.

    I’m told that if a bit of the silicone leaks into springer-chambers or O-rings, it can only help. So far, no problems.
    The pellets have a nice shine, the barrels stay clean, and, hopefully we’re reducing airborne lead dust.

    Ed Pikor

  34. Mrs BB –

    Sounds like your matches weren’t Wacky enough. Next time introduce shooting for time at varying distances between 5-10 yards (or some other approach that gives you an advantage with open sights!). My wife made me upgrade her to a 9 power scope on her 1760se as the 6 power “bug buster” couldn’t keep up. I told her she was missing here chance to shoot flies at 5 yards since I don’t have any scopes that focus that close…..I like to find a way to make my tools the best for the job; otherwise I would have to practice! (I think bringing the 45 would be sufficiently “Wacky” that it would be frowned upon).

    JC

  35. As long as wachy is the topic for this weekend. Here is a wacky question.

    Why doesn’t anyone make a lead pellet mold? We can mold 44 and 45 cal slugs so why not 22 cal pellets?

    Would give us something to do with all the old lead from our trap.

    BTW… hope all you shooters save your lead and recycle it yourself for use in you black powder or give it to your local tire store. They’ll take it and recycle it.

    DB

  38. Jane,

    OK. Here’s the Kel skinny. Kel is short for Kellogg’s Professional Products.

    Their home page:

    http://kelloggsprofessionalproducts.com/

    Buy some Kel lube here:
    https://www.hardwareworld.com/975-Oz-Food-Grade-Silic-p10KCDS.aspx
    or here:
    http://brands.hardwarestore.com/kellogg”s-professional.aspx

    Kellogg’s Professional Products
    325 Pearl St.
    Sandusky, Ohio 44870
    Phone: 419-625-6551

    MSDS on the silicone spray.
    http://msds.ihs.com/partinfo.aspx?partid=7380

    Clearly, you don’t want to be smoking when you unleash this stuff.

    Derrick

  39. Madame Pelletier,
    No wonder BB always seems so happy, he has more than airguns going for him. It’s good to hear from someone else that likes open sights, also.

    WFT sounds like more fun than the real thing — a bit like the occasional idea of a FT contest with $100 limit on equipment, making the B3 a hot pick, because it allows the most “lavish” scope.

    BB,
    RE: sock warming CO2. The fact that it can’t be done makes me want to do it even more:), but I’ll have to look at the factors you mentioned. The barrel and receiver are large heat sinks, plus the cartridge will get colder when it shoots, so the power input requirement may be higher than I thought at first.

    Wayne,
    Thanks for the input on cold frames. Those plants are more of a supplemental/side project. Seems like every year the plants go up in price and down in quality.

    I’m sure your economy model cold frame would shame what I’ll cobble together, if I get to it this year:).

  40. Dave, the ‘O’ ring is a #109. If you punch that number into Mcmaster’s O-ring selector you’ll get a bunch of choices in that size. I used Buna-N, 70 hardness, part #9452K172, $2 per 100

    They also sell a fiber washer that’s the correct size for a shim. It’s part #90089A330, and they’re about .015″ thick and about $10 per 100

  41. Edith:

    Gotta love the little Sharp carbine. At one time a collector friend told me less than 10 were ever imported in the US. Found one years back at the Standing Stone show in PA. The Sharp CO2 guns were neat guns ; now sadly all gone.

    Al

  42. BB, the Diana 26 is twangy as all get-out but it DOES shoot good – a bit less than 1/4″ at 10 yards, open sights. Velocity is about 680 with CPL’s, does that sound about right?

    A question about the Daisy 717… what’s supposed to secure the lever when the gun isn’t pumped? On this one it just flops around unless it’s got air pressure in it.

  43. Vince,
    Thank you for the info. on the part numbers for the o-rings and spacers and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it !! My Panther has really gained tons of velocity since I shimmed the breech seal and hoping for the best on this new Ruger. Thanks again for everything !!!
    David

  44. David, if you want just email me your address and I’ll send you a couple, along with some of those shims.

    vfblovesnancy@yahoo.com

    Any clue how much you gained? I had a .22 Panther go up by over 130fps when the seal was shimmed.

    I’ll be curious how you make out with the Ruger. I had 2 of them (the spring broke quickly in the 2nd one) and couldn’t get either to shoot very well.

  45. B.B. & All,

    Just got the Hy-Score 809 .22 cal. (Diana 35)

    Really nice burly grain stock. The seller sent me a link to your blog on the Diana 35, B.B., "the big brother of the Diana 27"..
    It's a perfectly under powered for me… 503fps with JSB 15.8gr .22 cal.. and only 12fps spread on 10 shots.. out of the box, used of course.. March 73, right where Tom said the date would be.. even though I had to double up my glasses to read it…

    This one seems tuned or do they all have very little recoil?

    And for $144?… I feel like a happy camper again… should I?

    Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  46. Thanks all that responded to my comments on the RIA1911.
    I switched to remington PMC ball ammo and didn’t have a single jam in my 200round session today. Also, a little advise please, I am hunting tomorrow for the last day of the season. Shotguns only where I’m headed, but should I take a 870magnum with buckshot ( or a rifled choke and slugs), or a light weight, proven benelli super nova 20ga with rifled slugs. Wish me luck.
    Shadow express dude

  48. B.B.,
    If you could get your hands on a pellet mold that would make a great blog series.

    First you make a few hundred pellets… take about four hours. the you shoot them to see how they perform.

    Hope you have one in your storage locker.

    DB

  49. Vince,

    About the daisy 717:

    1-Go on the Daisy sight and ask for a parts list. Service was excellent and prices were good. You have to order over the phone.

    2-The lever is probably just loose. BB covered adjusting it in the following blog:

    /blog/2007/9/daisy-717-part-2/

    3-The 2-Piece Intermount for the Crosman 1377 works on it if you want to mount a red-dot or scope. The link for it is:

    /product/crosman-459mt-2-pc-intermount-3-8-dovetail?a=190

    It’s an awesome pistol and it sounds like you got a great deal. Hope I’m not telling you too much that you don’t already know.

  51. Vince, The schimel pistols ( and American Luger ) are very close copies of the luger pistol, including the toggle action. See Blue Book of Airguns Seventh Edition page 410 & 411. The American Luger version in good condition is pretty salty. Jon

  52. I will be buying an pellet riffle soon and was wondering if i could trouble you guys for some advise.

    I will be using it for mostly pest/ bird control.(and to impress some of my other friends with lesser pellet guns)

    the set up i am thinking for myself is………

    — RWS 460 magnum .22
    —Leapers UTG 17.1″ compensator mount – (DN-460)
    —Leapers medium profile rings -(rgpm-30m4)
    —Leapers 30mm Swat 3-12X44 full size A.O. (scp3-p3124amdl) scope
    —RWS .22 cleaning kit

    pellets would be Crossman premiers (dooms) for general use
    and JBS predator performance polymer tips for pest control

    I’m looking at about 1000$ for this right now and wouldn’t like to pay to much more, but would if I had to.
    I just want a gun and scope that will work good and consistently with no headaches or BS.
    I have lots of experience with pellet guns and no experience with scopes, but have been reading and learning a lot recently.
    Any advise would be greatly appreciated, or other accessories I should buy myself.

    thanks,
    DOUG C. from Canada

  54. DOUG C. from Canada,
    Like you I have very little experience with scopes. Always prefered open sights.

    But time has caused my eyes to change and iron sights are no longer clear enough. So I ventured into the scope market. Purchased a low end 3-9 $40 scope and was not pleased. Stepped up to a Leapers 1.5-6×44 luminated SWAT scope.

    Findings for the 1.5-6 Leapers:
    1. Great sight picture
    2. A bit fuzzy at the high end
    3. Lots of parallax – difficult to use
    4. Lumination is completely not needed – scope is so bright you could shoot by moonlight without lumination.
    5. AO was omitted from the scope and it may have helped with parallax

    So my recommendations based on my limited research:
    1. By twice the power you think you need – helps with parallax
    2. Do not pay extra for lumination
    3. Good scopes cost as much as a good gun… accept it
    4. Mil-Dot is worth paying extra
    5. Side wheel AO is more handy and worth the extra money

    The Leapers Accushot 4-16×56 is on my short list. But at $189 I’m forced to look at maybe a Leupold solution.

    Your gun choice demands a hardend scope like the Leapers shockproof line.

    Hopefully a real scope expert or two will chime in… as stated I’m just starting to explore scope options.

    DB

  55. Randy, thanks for the bonk on the head. I had looked up the 717 blog before and saw the part about adjusting piston length, but for some reason I didn’t get what BB was saying about the tension. At your prodding I re-read the article and yes, that solved my problem perfectly. Thanks!

    Jon F, the pistol I saw seems to be a Plainsman 175:

    http://www.collectorfirearms.org/website%20Images/Airguns-Replicas/ag-13.htm

    Looks like they’re worth between $15 and $30.

  56. Doug C,

    I have lots of advice for you, but no experience with the gun I’m going to recommend! (I do have a 460 that I have had some problems with). The 52 Luxus is a great deal from Pyramyd AIR and doesn’t give up much power to the 460 (may even be more reliable). $378 with the 10% off coupon AND a terrific Walnut stock. I don’t know if you said .22, but its the way to go with the additional power. I believe the same scope mount will work on that gun; don’t get the Leapers Weaver rings as they have a rounded stop that wears away the edges of the stop. I’m using B-Square rings ( http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=491085#enalarge). I’m just showing these as an example as they have the squared off recoil blades to be compatible with the Leapers mount – get the low ones if you can, the Leapers base is already high). I think the Leapers Swat 3-12×44 is a great all around choice in a scope; good price/quality/features. I would recommend the 80mm AO adjust ring.

    Good Luck,

    JC

  57. Looks like the Diana 26 I just picked up (made in ’91) has the T01 trigger. I’ve not been able to find any instructions for adjusting it – can anyone provide a link or info on this?

  58. B.B Will I be able to fill a Air force condor or Talon with a Benjamin discovery pump?

    Also, I have about 3/4’s of an acre to shoot on, that is fenced off with neighbors surrounding me. Do you think the neighbors would be pissed if I shot a condor off in the backyard? They haven’t complained about my benjamin discovery in .177, yet, but I still like shooting PBA ammo in it because it sounds awesome.

    Thanks.

  59. Vince,
    Thank you for the offer on the o-rings and shims but I was so anxious last night that I hit the order button from Mcmaster right after I got the part numbers from you !! My .22 Panther went from about 675 fps with 14.2 Super H Points and is now doing about 740 fps with them. Looks like I got the newer version of the Ruger with the scope stop included and is doing almost 910 fps with Gamo match 7.71 gr. …… Besides the 1340 fps I got with the first detonation shot out of the box that made my ears ring 🙂 Thanks again for everything !!!

  60. Vince,

    T01 has two screws, adjustable through a hole in the trigger guard. Screw the front one (the one closer to the barrel) all the way in. Then back out the rear screw until you completely lose second stage (and just have a long single stage trigger pull). Then screw in the rear screw until you just have a little bit of second stage. This assumes you are trying for a first stage that goes to a sensitive second stage.
    When you’ve got it like you like it, point the loaded/cocked gun downrange and bang it around a little (e.g. “drop” the stock into a sand bag) to make sure you didn’t go too far and have a hair trigger. Do this with the safety on and with it off.

    JC

  61. Vince,

    I want you to think about a guest blog series on breech-shimming and re-sealing breeches for breakbarrel spring guns. You have provided some very useful information over the past six months that, if collected in one report, and it might have several parts, would be invaluable.

    I told Volvo that he is a great writer. Well, you are on the same list, in my book. You have some important things to say, and I’d sure like you to put them into a blog for all of us.

    This is not a homework assignment. Think of it as your contribution to airgunning. And I don’t think this is all you can do, obviously. The Rekord trigger comparison is still on tap, I hope.

    Whadda ya think?

    B.B.

  62. Al,

    If you bought your U-SL at Standing Stone a few years back, you probably bought the very rifle Edith is holding!

    We gave that rifle to a good friend, and he probably sold it in Maryland. Standing Stone was a show both he and we used to attend.

    You should be able to verify that by the wood grain at the butt in the picture.

    B.B.

  63. Sure, BB, anything to help – especially if you’re not picky about timetables! I assume you mean something a little more in-depth than the one I did on the 34 series (which, from what I can tell, tend to need it more than any other gun I’ve worked on)… including different materials and so forth.

    But the Rekord writeup would probably get done first, since I’ve already done the work on that. I’d just have to write up the results.

    JC, I took the T01 trigger blade out to see what the screws do, and they are similar in function to the two trigger screws in the AR1000 (Norica) mechanism. Since I get spooked very easily from a safety standpoint, I adjusted the screws so that I get maximum trip lever engagement – which was about 2 turns out on the front. I then adjusted the rear to give me a 2nd stage with just a trace of creep. I don’t like anything on the ‘knife’s edge’. And neither do my walls.

  64. Vince,

    The schedule is entirely up to you. What I envision is a broad report on the benefits of breech sealing and shimming with several anecdotes from your experience. Then I would like a listing of specific part numbers and contact info, like the McMaster-Carr references you gave to Dave.

    A good report is always preferable to one done quickly, so you take all the time you need. And I;m not suggestion that you need to write a book when I say that,. either. Just revisit all the help you have given on this blog and try to work it into your report. You helped me seal the Beeman diual-caliber rifle; you just helped Dave and maybe you have helped others on the B20, B26 or Hammerli 490. Stuff like that.

    B.B.

  66. Wayne,

    You got a very good deal on that 809 — I hope you realize that.

    Little recoil and no vibration? Brother, someone good has been inside that rifle. Diana 35s always had a harsh firing cycle, in my experience. The low-ish velocity is probably what he wanted — I’d leave it alone.

    I think you have a very well-tuned Diana, you lucky guy!

    B.B.

  67. Al,

    We got rid of the Sharp carbine because we were constantly getting guns for testing for “The Airgun Letter,” and we had a very small house at the time (and our finances were a bit limited, too). There was another airgun that I enjoyed shooting indoors, but Tom may have forgotten about it. It was the Walther PPK/S BB gun…quiet, easy to shoot and a bucket of fun. I liked it so much, that I insisted we buy the firearm. (I didn’t have to twist Tom’s arm very hard to make that purchase!) All this talk has reminded me that the holiday time has prevented us from doing any recreational shooting by far too long. Maybe we’ll get to do some this weekend.

    Edith

  68. DB,

    I don’t have a true pellet mold – per se – but I do have a .17-caliber bullet mold. The problem is, the .17 caliber centerfire bullet is way undersized for a .177 airgun barrel.

    You help me find a mold and I will do a report on it. Harper out of the UK made and sold them for many years. Beeman carried than back in the 1970s.

    I looked at that “pellet” shape in the Beeman store and was underwhelmed. It was a spitzer design with a narrow driving band. Of course it was a solid and the mold was either brass or bronze, as I recall. I think the pellet weighed 17 grains or so, so it will have to be fired in a really powerful rifle to stabilize it, because the drag will be low.

    B.B.

  70. Doug,

    You already got some good advice from one of our readers. I’d like to underscore what he said about the reliability of the 48/52. The two 460s I tested were reliable, but I have heard from readers with other experiences. Apparently the lever that unlocks the sliding compression chamber during cocking is subject to failure is used incorrectly. On the other hand, the 48/52 is as reliable as an anvil.

    The pellets you have selected will work on all Diana rifles. Good choices. Just remember to oil the Premiers and you can forget the cleaning kit.

    Before you finalize your purchase, let’s talk some more. I do understand the braggin’ rights angle, but the 48/52 is a great rifle for that, as well. And. like the other guy said, not too far behind the 460.

    And I endorse the choice of .22 caliber for any of these models.

    B.B.

  71. Benjamin pump guy,

    The Benjamin Discovery pump IS the same as the AirForce pump – BUT the connections are all different!

    So if you still want that pump, call Airhog and get an Airforce fill adaptor (the large steel part that screws to the AirForce tank) with a male Foster quick-disconnect on the other end. I had them make me one and it works great. And that will couple to the Benji pump just fine.

    B.B.

  73. BB, if you can read this you should be at the range with Edith!

    Anyway – FOR WHEN YOU GET BACK – I pulled the Diana 26 apart and it was dry as a bone inside – and clean – with the exception of a little bit of rusty oil around the seal. Considering how badly it dieseled for the first couple of shots, I’m kinda surprised.

    I cleaned ‘er up, replaced the seal (a Crosman Quest seal works fine – it’s got a 25mm tube), tarred the spring, and now it’s settling down to about 720fps with Premiers.

    Oh – and my R10 seal arrived today. Apparently the stiff spring at least partly compensates for the short stroke – and it’s pushing CPL’s at about 880fps. And that might improve with break-in, since the seal was a tight fit.

  74. . . . .Whiscombe Notes…

    Due to my computer breaking (hard disc died after 7 years), I have been unable, and will be unable for awhile, to write about my observations and adventures with this wonderful piece of machinery known as a Whiscombe 80.

    Over the past couple weeks, due to vacation/holliday time, I have been able to shoot at least 200 shots from the Whiscombe per day, often many more.

    I started out shooting 10-yard indoor paper targets and chronographing the results using a wide variety of both .22 and .177 caliber pellets. I spent many hours each day wringing the most accuracy from each pellet using the HOTS calibration.

    The time consuming nature of this endeavor, combined with the fact that I wished to see my family again, led me to the “time saving” device of generally not weighing pellets until the “Final Pellet” for each caliber was decided upon.

    After finding the best caliber and pellet combination for my application (which I will write about given computer time, and as I am using my teenage son’s computer, will probably be no time soon) I began shooting at 10 and 25 yard targets (paper and plastic) to get the feel for the rifle and to become comfortable with it.

    I figured that after $3,500 and nearly 2 years of waiting I was going to give this rifle a lot of time to fully evaluate/appreciate it before rendering my final judgment as to its value (a later segment).

    Once I was confident with my ability to work with this rifle, I began to turn my attention to all those squirrels that had begun to gather in a false celebration of my absence outdoors whilst I had been practicing indoors.

    Over the past 12 or so days I have shot at quite a number of (over 50) small creatures (mostly aquirrels; some small, defenseless birds; several big, strong, shiny crows; a nice rabbit; and an annoying, indoor fly), using both the .177 and the .22 calibers, at ranges from 17-65 yards [fly at 10 yards], with 65% of the shots being at the range of 20-35 yards.

    I have some very interesting experiences to report, to be continued…

    – Dr. G.

  75. Vince,

    The R10 power level sounds just about perfect for accuracy at max. useful range, and pretty much in line with the 3.3″ stroke I think you indicated. Does the stiff spring make it harsh or is it pleasant to shoot? If its still a little rough in firing, you might get by with a lighter spring or less preload without losing much if any power. Seems like from the reading on R9 that I’ve done, the sweet spot always involves detuning slightly.

    Sounds like a keeper, anyway.

  77. David,

    My first break barrel was a .177 Crosman Quest. I fired the first pellet through it and got a detonation easily as loud as a .22 rimfire. I shot inside my garage, which was open and points towards the neighbor’s houses. It acted like an amplifier. Their idiot dog didn’t stop barking over this for nearly an hour.

  78. Hay BB,

    Re 460 – BB said “Apparently the lever that unlocks the sliding compression chamber during cocking is subject to failure if used incorrectly.” Tell me more about this, sounds like you are talking about the anti-bear trap lever and I am into keeping my fingers…..
    I am aware of a number of 460 issues (mainspring failure, breech seal spacer issues, and a weak spring under the underlever mechanism that closes the sliding breech the last part of its travel, but have never heard of problems involving the anti-bear trap mechanism.

    JC

  79. BG, the firing cycle is pretty nice – but when I had put it back together I tarred the spring, so I don’t know how much that has to do with it… in other words, I don’t know what it would have been like otherwise.

  80. First, let me say, Hello, Edith, “Mrs Pelletier”

    Second, Will Friday’s been Edith’s day on the Blog? Or, more appropriately, Friday’s should be Edith’s Days! After reading the Thursday Blog of what Tom has been up to this past year, and what is apparently in store for this year, I figure that if she can handle him and the cats everyday, he could give he a break and one day’s Blog a week. [ Ok, when I found out she likes shooting .45s, that kinda got me right there. Nothing like listening to guys fuss about how “big n bad” the .45 is, and knowing women who shoot not only the low-recoil stuff, but full loads with aplumb! ]

  81. E in V,
    Hey, I resemble that remark, having had a thumb almost removed by a .45 years ago…handguns just aren’t my thing. My grandfather always relegated pistols to the ladies, along with wrist-watches and other foppery, anyway:).

    Madame Pelletier would be a great regular blog feature.

  82. Dr G.,

    Welcome back if only on an interim basis until your “main connection” is re-etablished.

    Sorry but the weather over my holiday trip to our house in the mountains didn’t cooperate to shoot the 54 as I had hoped. Average temperature in the mornings was around 20 below. It warmed up to around 25-30 in the afternoon but still too cold to shoot. I still plan on shooting the 54 to determine poi differances as you requested. I haven’t forgot.

    Your “courting period” with the Whiscombe makes me envious. I’d really like to put one in my hands.

    Do you own a pcp?

    kevin

  83. B.B.,
    The pellet mold idea was really a lark. But I’ll poke around the web to see if any are for sale.

    Heavy pellet and PCP seem to go together. Hope one can be found.

    DB

  84. BB & Volvo,

    I got a little time and weather to start working on the Quigley Challenge. I started at 30 yards, where the Mendoza peep currently on my QB36-2 starts being "on", and worked up to 50 yards, at which point it started to get, well, challenging, although I can hit it. Here, I hope, is a picture of the setup from 50 yards, with an inset of the target facsimile:). I guess it really doesn't convey much, but it gives an idea of what the target looks like in context:

    http://picasaweb.google.com/farmerbg0/QB362#5287265731152689138

    The next picture (use right arrow) is the impacts on the can, using Superdomes. The first shot or two (at 30 yds and some more) went through without hesitation, but by 50 yards, pellets were bouncing off the back side of the can:).

    What I learned so far: 50 yards is, as I suspected, not an amazing feat of marksmanship, although hitting it every time will be a stretch for me. 100 yards will (would?) be pretty impressive, even cheating by using the peep, which I didn't have time to deal with removing.

    I was worried about the can being too tall, but it works pretty well, as all you can really see is the white portion…your favorite brand may vary. When I get to the point of knocking it flying with every shot at 100 yds., I will build an exact duplicate of the bucket from the movie:).

    Anyway, it is a fun little thing to do, and you can be sure I'll let you know when I work up to 100 yds! Meanwhile, you can laugh at my marksmanship.

  85. To: DOUG C. from Canada

    Isn’t there some goofy restriction in Canada on airguns? Seems like I remember from some else moaning that there is a limit of 500 fps on velocity.

    Before you order, be sure that you can get the whole order, and that you don’t get shipped everything but the gun.

    Herb

  86. Doug C,

    The other thing is also I’ve been playing with scopes and not been real happy with “range” over which a scope is accurate. As you move the scope away from the bore line, the scope shoots high, it’s “on” for a distance, then the pellet falls below line of sight again.

    With the compensator mount and rings the sight line of the scope will be quite a bit above the boreline of the rifle. If you are shooting at varying distances that could be a problem for a novice scope user. You’re going to end up with a very narrow range for which the scope is accurate (ie +/- 0.5 inch of line of sight). You can of course adjust scope using wheel adjustment or just offset sight point.

    I came from shooting shotguns and wasn’t at all used to playing with scopes. If you already know how to use a scope you should have no problem. But getting $1000 invested in something could be a powerful disappointment otherwise. I was very very very annoyed to have missed a squirrel that I could have almost clubbed with the gun!

    Herb

  87. Kevin,

    Yes, I own two PCPs which I have written about before…a very powerful [modified].25 Condor and an extremely accurate [modified] .22 Theoben Rapid.

    Nothing beats the .25 Condor for rural hunting under 50 yards…nothing.

    …more Whiscombe Notes…

    I have found that I am using the .177 caliber more often than the .22 caliber for several reasons.

    Primarily, as The Man Himself suggested, it is definitely a bit more accurate than the .22. Further, for the small rodents that I am going after, it has more than enough power, as shown below…

    ……Results at 10 yards…
    Eun Jin 15.8 gr. 680 fps 16 ft./lbs.

    JSB Diablo Hvy 10.3 930 20 ft./lbs.

    H&N XtrHvy Brrcuda 10.3 880 18 ft./lbs.

    RWS Sprdome 8.2 960 (*) 17 ft./lbs.

    RWS H.P. 7.1 1030 (**) 17 ft./lbs.

    RWS Hobby 7.0 970 (**) 15 ft./lbs.

    * Slight sonic crack **LOUD sonic crack

    As can be seen, the JSBs, which Whiscombe suggests, are the highest powered of the pellets by a significant amount. It is interesting to see that the power drops off both sides of the weight curve when using the pellets that are heavier and pellets that are lighter than 10 grains.

    Even the pellet which weighs the same (H&N) shoots 50 fps slower (all shots of any given pellet are mostly within 5 fps of each other), yielding a bit less power. I think that the barrel is machined very precisely, and the pellets fit snugly. Any variation in diameter is noticed. This is the Ferrari of air rifles.

    Joe B.,
    . . The basement (and 1st floor) were inundated with big, fat, slow flies for a couple weeks, which happens to many houses around here every few years. They are easy to catch, and in fact my son uses the Beeman fly gun to kill many of them.

    Anyway, while I was target shooting at 10 yards using .22 a fly landed on a block of wood adjacent to the paper target. I splattered him easily, as he was not moving. I have shot other flies outside at 20-25 yards with the .25 Condor after the flies alight on a carcass or on an adjacent rock or pebble. Most often I get them, using a Leapers 6-24 X 56mm.

    – Dr. G.

  88. Today was range-day. I took my GAMO CFX .177 and the RHS 350MAG .22 that I got from Black Mamba (whom I thank again for a Super rifle). The 350 shot way better (consistent). All shooting was done at 50FT. I managed 3/4 groups with the 350 several times. The GAMO did a bit worse. With the 350, I could hit 9mm shells 3 times out of 5.

    And then I noticed the problem, on both rifles. Scopes are identical, Leapers 4-16×50 AO. I could get 5, max7 shots with either rifle wherever I pointed the scope. I mean ANYWHERE and it was a hit. Then, POI shifted 2 or 3 inches up or down, never to the sides. Adjust the scopes (about 3, 4 shots to get it on zero) and everything was great for the next 5, 6 shots. Then same story: up or down 2 or 3 inches.

    Now, I read about the knobs not engaging the erector tube, when you can’t hear the clicks crisp upon turning. On both rifles, windage makes no clicks, only mushy movement. Elevation makes crisp clicks on both.

    Could the scopes be the problem? I checked all the mounting screws several times, all are tight. Do you think I should return them?
    Sorry for the LOOOng post, but it is frustrating to see that now you hit the 9mm shell,couple of shots later, same hold and all, nothing.
    Your input is greatly appreciated. Will post pics with the groupings a bit later.

  89. ——————————–
    BB / JC ECT……

    may last 3 posts didn’t go through i guess, argggg.

    yes US air riffle sellers wont ship to CANADA, and yes if they are 500fps plus you need the same license you need as a regular gun.
    for 6 reasons i wont type out again I will be buying online from a store in Vancouver, (im in Victoria).
    BB… side cocking guns don’t really tickle my fancy so I think im going to stick with the 460 magnum unless you guys change my mind.
    I think after all Ive red about scopes and scope mounting and sitting in I will be able to finger it out( i hope). you guys think the mounting rings/scope combo i picked out suit the gun/each other???
    what is pellet oiling?
    what is dieseling?

    any other tips or tricks for me and for optimum maintenance and performance would be greatly appreciated. thanks for sharing your experience and opinions so far guys, I find this forum very helpful.
    the set up i am thinking for myself is………

    — RWS 460 magnum .22
    —Leapers UTG 17.1″ compensator mount – (DN-460)
    —Leapers medium profile rings (rgpm-30m4)
    —Leapers 30mm Swat 3-12X44 full size A.O. (scp3-p3124aomdl) scope
    —RWS .22 cleaning kit
    —————————–
    thanks

    DOUG C from Canada

  90. Hi B.B. Pelletier do you know where I can find more info and indepth details and pictures on the Hodges catapult gun? i have googled it but all i find is your page and misc junk. any links with more info and pics and maybe even video’s would help considerablely thank you your blog is awesome.

  91. B.B.

    I am overjoyed to find this blog, and your writings on the Career Infinity. The Infinity was my first PCP, and using it for several months, completely lost interest in springers or Co2. I was amazed at the accuracy, power, and range of PCP.

    Alas, after leaving it many months in a closet, I had the exact experience you did when I tried to pump it up for the winter hunting season. Complete depression set it, I had no idea what was wrong, and no inclination to mess with high-pressure mechanicals.

    Your right of the the valve assembly, the pictures, the tip with the belt – all spot on.

    My only question now – how to best repair this valve? Does PA sell repair parts? Is the Boris Valve available?

    David Keeler

  92. Bg – farmer

    Thanks for the photos, very nice. You need to get out your boy’s Red Ryder and have a go at it. : )

    Kevin,

    Still no PCP rifle? Can you divulge if you have a .22 or .177 coming?

    Dr. G,

    I came to a similar conclusion on the .177. While I just had an R-1 with two barrels, the .177 still never let me down. If you could post a link with pictures of the Whiscombe, that would be wonderful. I’m sure that is as close as many of will ever get to such a fine rifle.

    Doug C,

    I may have missed this, but why the RWS 460?

    Just curious.

    Volvo

  93. BB,
    Well as it turns out, I use the "proven" platform. Some other hunter (who was trespassing) was running his @#$% dogs through my land. Well anyhow, I get out of the tree stand (figuring the hunts over) and the dogs were getting close. I set up in the middle of the path to catch any deer the dogs might be chasing. While trying to reload my Benelli Nova, it jammed!!!! Then 15 or so dogs come flying around the corner, no deer today.

    ON THE OTHER HAND,
    I got my S&W .40VE yesterday. It's really comfortable, and much less bulky than the F variant. I actually don't mind the trigger. It has a nice crisp let off with just a little creep. Another great feature is the fact that you can dry fire. My favorite part is that it has fully supported chambers, and of coarse the huge 14+1 magazine. It's a great gun, I just don't expect it to be a tack drive like my 1911.
    Shadow express dude

  94. David,

    Now that there is more time on Boris’ new valve, it seems the part still works. I want to test it more, but I think it may be the solution.

    Call PA and talk to Boris. See if he will make one for you.

    I will email him with my experience to date.

    B.B.

  95. Volvo,

    No pcp yet. Probably another 2 weeks. I opted for .22 since hunting is a requirement/justification for this purchase. Most of the pcp accessories have arrived including a chrony. Went outside yesterday (while it was snowing) and shot a few shots over the chrony with 2 springers just to satisfy a little bit of my curiosity. My wife looked out the window at me and just shook her head.

    Dr G.,

    Sorry. I forgot about your condor and rapid mkll. You’ll be as old as me someday but hopefully your memory will be sharper. You’ve just about got all the bases covered in the air gun arena. A Whiscombe does sound like the epitomy of a spring gun,

    kevin

  96. Doug C,

    In case you missed it, BB answered the question about your choices above and gave your selection a thumbs up. The master believes he would find the combination likable. Personal preferences being what they are, your experience may vary.

    * What is pellet oiling?

    Lead alloy pellets like Crosman deposit lead in the barrel, particularly in a high power springer. Oiling pellets (see blogs for “Whiscombe Honey”) helps prevent such deposits.

    See: /blog/2008/2/how-to-lubricate-pellets/

    * What is dieseling?

    In high power springers the piston chamber develops very high pressure in a very small volume. When the gas is compressed it also heats. The combination of heat and pressure can cause the detonation of any hydrocarbon oils. The shock of detonation can damage the piston and/or spring. BB did two parter on this:

    /blog/2007/5/what-does-dieseling-mean-part-2/

    Herb

  98. Vince,

    That velocity bump with the new seal is surprising. Especially with the tar. It tells me what a careful tuner you are. I think you’re going to like that 26. There aren’t a lot of them around.

    As for the R10, some of them will shoot close to 1,000 f.p.s. and others won’t. I always thought their stroke was on the long side, but maybe that’s only is comparison to the guns of the day. Today’s springers are all cashing in on the power a long stroke offers.

    B.B.

  99. Dr. G.,

    If airguns were violins, the Whiscombe would be the Strad. And like the Strads, each gun is different. Mine, for instance, need to be shot occasionally to work right. If I leave it for six months, the cocking mechanism gets sticky and the rifle doesn’t want to cock. But after 20 shots, it becomes reliable again. So keep on shooting yours — it may be the best thing for it.

    B.B.

  100. I have a question for you or your husband for however wants to answer me. Your husband said that a Benjamin discovery would not be good with a peep sight because of fiber optic sights. Well, I knocked my front sights acrylic rod out with my pump hose by accident, and lost it. If I simply put a little piece of black tape, or paint or something, over the little hole where the acrylic rod was, would the gun work better with a peep? Thanks

  101. Doug C,

    The only red flag I have on your recent post is the Leapers “Weaver” rings. They have a round bolt that serves as the recoil stop. It mates (poorly I might add) with the square notches in the Leapers 460 mount. A number of other makers provide a square recoil stop which works better. The Leapers rings will work for a while, but they will round off the square edges in a short time and become less stable.

    JC

    PS – Re 3 missing posts: The blog appears to not take your post if you miss a certain time window. Look for the “your post was saved” message at top. Otherwise, type in the next word verification and try again.

  103. Cosmin,

    I don'[t think you are asking the right question. If the erector tube is loose, why is it loose? If it’s because the return spring (s) are relaxed, all that has to be done is tighten them by twisting the adjustment knobs.

    But if the erector tube is loose for some other reason, the scope is broken.

    B.B.

  108. POI shift,

    You are describing a classic case of shooter parallax through head placement changes.

    Put tape on your stock to ensure the same eye placement with every shot. Touch the tape with your cheek the same way in the same place on every shot.

    Also level the bubble of your scope level before each shot. WHAT? You aren’t using a level? Another prime cause of “scope shift.”

    The POI shift should stop.

    The probability of two scopes developing scope shift (which is already EXTREMELY rare) is astronomically low. But with scope cant or eye placement, I can get a 2-inch POI shift at 50 feet at will.

    B.B.

  113. BB Thanks for the erector tube answer. It’s like this: on the elevation knob, I get very crispturns, on the windage, it is mushy. I zero the gun and shoots EXCELLENT for 5, 6 shots, then the POI changes. Always up or down, never to the sides. Please help. 2 scopes with the same problems.

  115. BB, I will do it. When do I know is half-way? Sorry for my ignorance.
    And I think what you mean is if the POI shifts, I need Adj. mounts, not if it doesn,t, right?
    Thank you for the help.

  116. Volvo,

    Is that the same kind of can you hit from 45y with your 499? Offhand? You’re a better shot than I…
    50 yards is just the start of the challenge…110 is the goal.

    BB,
    Thanks, that group is an old one with Copperhead wadcutters/sitting/open sights that I took to update my guest blog last spring; just never took it out of the picasa album. I could probably get it to group better now, but I haven’t tried a lot of wadcutters in it or shot at bullseyes with it much.

  118. E in V–I have no idea why guys think the .45 is a big or overwhelming gun. Here's how I approached it. Millions of guys shot it in the military. How bad can it be? It's not as if I'm shooting a Raging Bull! I made up my mind long ago that things that millions of other people do can't be that hard, so I should be able to do them, too.

    BG_Farmer–I'm a writer/blogger/editor, so writing blogs about airguns is quite easy. I can pop one out in no time. I'll be writing more guest blogs from now on, as requested by Tom and others on this blog. I used to write a daily blog about firearms, ammo, Second Amendment rights & more for a former employer. I find blogging exhilarating and fun.

    Edith

  119. Volvo,

    Here are some . . .Whiscombe Notes…

    If you go to Whiscombe’s internet site and click on the “optional” word under “features,” then you will see a picture of my rifle with the thumbhole grip and adjustable buttplate and cheeckpad. I do not know how to post links or photos, but you will see it there nonetheless.

    What you cannot discern from the photo is the absolutely fantastic match trigger that I ordered, which I have set at around 5 ounces. So far, the hair trigger and the perfect balance of the rifle have consistently impressed me above anything else.

    Due to the flat bottom and perfect balance, the rifle is very easy to hold on target while sitting, easy to stay on target whilst pulling the trigger, and not difficut to remain on on target on the follow through.

    So far, I find that it is clearly more difficult to drop a squirrel on the spot with the .177 vs. the higher calibers, especially the .25 (which Whiscombe has not sold for years). Even with perfect head or throat/chest shots, the squirrel hit with the powerful .177 seems to often dance away for a few seconds/yards before dropping dead.

    When I used the .22 Whiscombe, the squirrels definitely died faster and danced/ran much less.

    The first time I tried to shoot a squirrel with the Whiscombe .177 a couple weeks back, the ground was covered with snow and a light snow was still falling. A squirrel appeared at 25 yards, digging around for food, a very clear gray target against a sea of white.

    My only concern was how the falling snow would affect the pellet’s flight. I was pleased that I had chosen the .177, as I thought that it might wend its way between the flakes without striking as many as the .22 pellet might, seeing as how it is a smaller pellet.

    I aimed a tad higher than his shoulder, as that gave me a huge killing oval 2″ long and 1″ wide. I knew that when I got more familiar with this pellet’s flight at varying distances using this air rifle, I would aim only at the head for shots under 40 yards. However, now I wanted to be sure not to miss, especially since it was the first hunting experience with this rifle.

    Well, I squeezed off the shot from the comfort of my semi-heated garage and saw the pellet clearly land about 10 feet behind the squirrel in the snow bank behind him. I was extremely annoyed, and looked up to see if the shot had frightened him off.

    Fortunately, he was continuing to dig in the snow for food, apparently oblivious to the shot. I later discovered that while this rifle is loud to the shooter due to the sound vibration transmitted through the stock, it seems to be less frightening to squirrels than the 54 spring gun sound (even after being tuned to perfection by Rich of Michigan). I also discovered that snow and falling snow make great acoustic covers.

    So, I was in no hurry to reload and shoot, and watched the sqirrel as I loaded (the rifle is easy to load and cock without looking). He was apparently enjoying himself like my dogs do, stretched out prone on the snow, very relaxed.

    And then I realized that he was not moving! I ran out to evaluate the situation, and discovered a heart shot had dropped him like I had wished for, without any further movement. What I had thought was a squirrel continuing to dig for food was actually a squirrel already headed for Heaven!

    Obviously the pellet had gone through him, which is wasted energy, and a big part of the reason that the .25 is a better squirrel stopper.

    If I had a raging or PCPed up squirrel running at me or one of my family, I would want the Drozd machine bb gun. And for shots under 50 yards at sitting squirrels, the Condor .25 kills instantly more often than not. But for longer shots than 50 yards or for going for 2 or 3 squirrels before alerting the others in the area, the Whiscombe .177 seems to be the best bet.

    This rifle is just made for Field Target competition.

    – Dr. G.

  120. Cosmin,

    The adjustment knob has lines on the side of the barrel. Turn the knob until only half of them show. It’s just an approximate setting All you are doing is putting the erector tube under spring tension.

    When you now shoot the gun your shots will land to the left of the aim point. But they shouldn’t move around. They should continue to land in the same place, now that the erector tube is under spring tension from both directions.

    To move the shots to where the scope is now looking takes an adjustable mount.

    B.B.

  121. Jugghaed,

    First, is the Sears 126 a BB gun or a pellet gun?

    Second, if you don’t know what it is or how valuable it is, why do you want to take it apart? Some old BB gun are worth thousands unless they are damaged by unknowing people taking them apart.

    Third, I recommend you go on the following forum and ask about what kind of Crosman model you have, because Sears didn’t make that gun.

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/405945/

    B.B.

  122. BB: There is something loose inside the gun, and is sliding around. On the barrel it says Sears and Roebuck BB gun 126 xxxxx.
    Could this be a muzzle loader? To cock the gun the barrel must be pushed rearward about 6 inches. Any ideas? Thanks. Jugghead

  123. BB,

    BB said re 460 failure: “The lock that allows the sliding breech to be closed is what I was referring to…..is subject to failure if used incorrectly.”

    That’s what I thought you were talking about. I’m looking for more details on what kind of failure and what kind of “used incorrectly”. I always hang on to the cocking lever when loading, but then I just push the release lever and move cocking lever back to its resting position with the palm of my hand???

  124. BB…JC…..ect

    I am having a heck of a time finding rings you guys speak of.
    if one of you dont mind could you please take a quick look at this page of ring and tell me what to buy as I am buying everything else from this site.
    http://www.dlairgun.com/Mounts.html
    — RWS 460 magnum .22
    —Leapers UTG 17.1″ compensator mount – (DN-460)
    —Leapers medium profile rings (rgpm-30m4)
    —Leapers 30mm Swat 3-12X44 full size A.O. (scp3-p3124aomdl) scope
    —RWS .22 cleaning kit

    thanks again for all your helpful input guys.

    DOUG C ,,,,, CANADA

  125. Edith & Tom,

    Wow, what a great weekend blog… look at all the comments!! and really good stuff too..

    I've been trading this weekend, and missed out on the fun..
    Just finished a deal with Anthony Storey for his "Tricked FWB P-70- FT rifle Titanium tube".. This will be fun to compare with the Mac I USFT. And now we have at least 3 quality FT rifles for the club..

    B.B. I guess I got real lucky on the HY-Score 809… must be all the blessings I've been giving out, coming back to me.. You know how I hate recoil in a springer.. So I must really be lucky.. I got it more as a collector, but I love how it shoots.. about the recoil of my little HW30.. And offhand standing, with open sights I got a nice 2" group at 20 yards, with two shots right on the bull.

    Edith, I'm ssooooo glad your going to be a regular. Your perspective is a great addition to an already great blog.. Just make sure you get time and half pay.. I'm sure your other chores won't lesson any!!

    Wayne
    Ashland Air Rifle Range

  126. Doug C. from Canada,
    The RWS 460 is a relatively new design model compared to the RWS 52 so perhaps all the bugs aren’t quite worked out. The large, plastic and unusually ugly and cheap looking front sight of the 460 would be a deal breaker for me and spoils an otherwise handsome rifle.

    J.C. points out a good value in the RWS 52 Luxus on sale at more than $100.00 less than the 460. A time tested and proven design with about the same power level. Alas a similar front sight problem.(curse of the beancounters)

    You had mentioned you were willing to spend $1000.00 to get a top of the line gun. Why not lose all the plastic and go with the Air Arms TX 200 or Pro Sport. The Beeman R-1 is also an excellent quality rifle. Basically, for that kind of money I would move away from RWS entirely and go with a higher quality rifle.

    Unless of course, you were thinking PCP, then I think Wayne may have a few recommendations for you.(A.A.S410?)

    Jon F.

  127. Doug C,,,,Canada,

    I won't try to talk you out of the gun you have chosen but I will try to answer your question.

    I went to the dlairgun site you linked to help with your scope ring selection since that is the weak piece in your "shopping list". Woefully short list of scope ring options and none on the dlairgun site will work for the leapers base. You need the leapers compensator base (DN-460) if you buy the rws (diana) 460 gun on your list. As mentioned previously, in a post above, the leapers rings on your shopping list have a rounded bar on the bottom of the rings that would fit against the raised square rails on the leapers compensator mount. Round vs. square doesn't work for long. You need true "weaver style" rings to work correctly with the leapers base. Many manufacturers make "weaver style" rings; i.e., barska, warne, leupold, aimpoint, etc. etc. I like warne steel rings on the leapers compensator base. My prejudice. Just make sure the bottom of the rings you choose have the square bar, not rounded, to lock into position with the leapers compensator base. You may have already seen B.B.'s excellent article on this base and details about the rings you need, instructions on installation complete with a video link but if you haven't here's the link:

    /blog/2008/07/leapers-base-for-rws-diana-rifles-part-3-more-testing/

    The link is for the third part of the series. The first two parts can be accessed in the link at the top (part 1 & part 2). About halfway into this third part is a great picture of the bottom of a weaver style scope ring so you can see the square bar I'm referring to.

    Your solution is to buy scope rings somewhere else. The site you're buying everything else from doesn't have what you need. Do Not buy another mount for the rws (Diana) 460. Use the leapers compensator base and get a set of rings somewhere else and you'll be fine.

    kevin

  128. JON f

    boy do i wish this forum was set up like from ibooats.com(single topics at 1 time)
    when i say 1000$ i mean 1000$Canadian for the gun, scope, mount,cleaning kit,shipping,some pellets, and taxes(15% in Canada).
    so 500 US$ is about the MAX for the rifle itself, and as mentioned about 35 posts up I would like a springer that’s not a side cock.
    and this will be used mostly for pest / bird control.
    if you know there is a better gun out there for me please let me know.
    thanks for your input

    KEVEN C.

    ty very much for making that clear to me. I do understand (now) that wevier is a type and not a brand.
    Im sure I can find some rings in town here. if not ill order them.

    so just to be clear i want,
    30mm medium profile rings (weiver type)
    — RWS 460 magnum .22
    —Leapers UTG 17.1″ compensator mount – (DN-460)

    —Leapers 30mm Swat 3-12X44 full size A.O. (scp3-p3124amdl) scope
    —RWS .22 cleaning kit

    DOUG C.

    thanks again guys

  129. Doug C,

    Weaver style not “wevier type”. I’d also recommend trying more than just one pellet to determine which is most accurate in your gun. The same model gun from the same manufacturer can and does like different pellets than its’ brother. Crossman premier pellets (IN THE CARDBOARD BOX, NOT IN TINS) are famous for working in a lot of spring guns like the rws 460. They are also famous for leading the barrels of more powerful spring guns like the 460. You can minimize the leading by lubricating the pellets with whiscombe honey (a concoction described by B.B. that can be found by searching this blog). JSB predators are notoriously inaccurate at even short ranges.

    Since you asked for advice on other options of guns, let me ask you several questions.

    1-You’re planning on using the gun for pest control/hunting. From a blind or are you walking in the woods? In other words, is weight a factor?

    2-What distances are you planning on shooting?

    3-What is the biggest “pest” you need to eradicate?

    4-How important is it to outshoot your buddies with their air guns when you target shoot?

    kevin

  130. I was shooting saltine crackers at about 25 yards with my benjamin discovery 177 today, and I shot a 2 shots off and thought I hit the cracker but apparently did not, I went to go check the cracker and found that I did him them, and passed straight through. The .177 passed straight through the saltine cracker, once but twice and left 2 clean holes, and did not damage any other part of the cracker, just 2 holes. I was amazed and felt like sharing this with you.

  132. KEVEN
    ——————————-
    1-You’re planning on using the gun for pest control/hunting. From a blind or are you walking in the woods? In other words, is weight a factor?

    –25% from patio with a rest
    –75% walking around

    2-What distances are you planning on shooting?
    — 10yards up to what the gun can shoot accurately (75 yards???)
    –average probably 35 yards

    3-What is the biggest “pest” you need to eradicate?
    –my wife,,,,, just kidding
    — crow, squirrel

    4-How important is it to outshoot your buddies with their air guns when you target shoot?
    –not important, it is important that my gun shoots consistantly
    — they only have 495 fps with cheap scopes

    and i have read BBs post on whiscombe honey and will be using that with my lead pellets.

    thanks again for clearing that up for me sir.

    DOUG C

  133. Dr G,

    I Spent some time on the Whiscombe website. Very impressive.
    However most important, it sounds like you are enjoying rifle.

    Keep us up to date; many auto magazines are sold due to the brand new Ferrari on the cover, even if the purchaser drives a 1978 Pinto.

    Bg-farmer,

    I think my can was a Hunts. As far as the off hand thing, I tend to lean and prop a little.
    I spent most of my teen years trying to shoot groundhogs in clover or fresh cut fields at maximum range for an old Winchester .22 Hornet.

    Give me the hood of a car, a branch, a shoulder, anything. I can never be sure a shot was truly off hand.

    Volvo

  134. dugcarr1,

    OK. Here are my observations/opinions.

    1-A 460 is a relatively heavy gun if you're walking/hunting. The gun is 8.3 lbs., scope you've chosen is another 21 ounces, then the mount & rings. You'll be lugging around 9.5+ lbs. The rws 52 luxus that some have suggested is even heavier at 8.75 lbs. just for the gun. I own a rws 54 which is 9 lbs. and wouldn't carry this gun in the field. Keep weight in mind.

    2 & 3-Distances & pest eradication. Depending on your definition of accuracy, almost any spring gun can be accurate at 10 yards. 75 yards is a stretch for consistency with the best springers. In my opinion you shouldn't be hunting crows or squirrels at 75 yards with a rws 460. Not enough power for these tough pests. If you plan on shooting/hunting at 35 yards and your prey is squirrels and crows I think you would be happier in the pcp world. More fps and ft.lbs.

    I believe from your earlier posts that looks play a role. I assume you were attracted to the 460 since it's an underlever (you don't like side cockers), it's a good looking gun and the rws 460 is the "most powerful springer rws makes)? Let's see, you also need to stay under $500.00US.

    For all the reasons given above I think you would be happier with a pcp. My suggestion is the benjamin discovery package that is shown on your airgun site http://www.dlairgun. At their prices, after buying the gun and pump you will still have money left over to get it tuned with trigger work and buy a good $40.00 moderator if quiet is important to you. Put your scope choice of the leapers 3-12×44 AO on the gun and you'll still be 3lbs. lighter than your rws 460 combo, have better accuracy/consisitency and a more powerful gun for your hunting needs. The discovery isn't as sexy as the rws 460. Trade off for performance.

    Just my opinion. Worth what you paid for it. Good luck in whatever you choose.

    kevin

  135. KEVEN

    something about wiping out a little bike pump and “pumping up my gun” just doesn’t do it for me.
    I may try something like that down the road if I really get into this, but the rws 460 will be my first nicer pellet riffle, and id like to stick with something im semi familiar with.
    —–the scope is already going to be a big step for me.
    —–and of course i will keep my shooting distance for pest control at as a humane as distance that the 460 will allow.
    —–I am 29 years old and in good shape, I dont see myself going on rugged safari’s or doing any excursions for more then a few hours with the riffle in tow.
    So I dont for see the weight bothering me to much.
    —thanks again for you input…
    -any more tips or suggestions will be appreciated.
    DOUG C.

  136. Doug Canada,

    Take a hard look at either an R1 or that Air Arms TX200. The .22 cal is perfect for what you’re describing. THe RWS guns, while nice, are not in the same league. A set of Leaper Accushot rings and a Leapers or Centerpoint 4-16 scope should make you very happy.

    Derrick

  138. Jugghead,

    Your BB gun (and it is a BB gun, by the way) is a Crosman 350 or 3500. It’s a 23-shot repeater, and what you hear inside is probably a loose BB.

    If it isn’t working, this man can fix it for you:

    I sold a non-working 350 for $20 at Roanoke this year. I get $40 for a working one.

    B.B.

  139. JC,

    I cannot follow you on the 460. Do you own one or not?

    You seem to describe what you would do with the cocking lever, but what you say will not work on that rifle if it is in working condition.

    Like all rifles with sliding compression chambers, the 460 has a latch that must be pushed in order to move the cocking lever back to the stored position. On the 460, it matters a lot exactly how you handle that operation because of how the latch is designed.

    What are you asking?

    B.B.

  140. dugcarr1 (Doug in Canada),

    Derrick’s suggestion of a Beeman R-1 is suggesting a classic breakbarrel airgun. On your dlairgun site the weihrauch hw80 is the most comparable (almost identical) to an R-1. Not a fixed barrel like the rws 460 magnum but as accurate maybe more accurate in the right hands and the hw80 has a better trigger (rekord).

    I admire your homework. Dianawerk (RWS) makes some fine guns. I own 4 of them.

    Please check your stock screws and scope screws for tightness every 100 shots or so. Loose screws = poor accuracy. Learn the artillery hold for the 460 magnum in order to milk every ounce of accuracy out of this powerful gun. Order some jsb exact pellets (item number jsb 546277-250 on the dlairgun site). They are the most accurate in my more powerful rws guns, are a great hunting pellet and are all lead so they won’t lead your barrel like the crossman premiers. Try both pellets though.

    Please keep us posted on your experiences with your new gun.

    BTW, I’m envious of your age. You’re entering this hobby at a perfect time in life.

    kevin

  142. Derrick,

    I like your suggestions for Doug, especially the Air Arms TX200MKIII. Sound advice. Unfortunately, a little beyond his admitted budget and not available to him in Victoria B.C.

    Aren’t we lucky to live in the U.S.A.?!!!

    kevin

  143. BB,

    Re the 460 failures you mentioned: JC said: I’m looking for more details on what kind of failure and what kind of “used incorrectly”. I always hang on to the cocking lever when loading, but then I just push the release lever and move cocking lever back to its resting position with the palm of my hand???
    BB said:
    Like all rifles with sliding compression chambers, the 460 has a latch that must be pushed in order to move the cocking lever back to the stored position. On the 460, it matters a lot exactly how you handle that operation because of how the latch is designed.

    JC now says: Yes, I own a 460.
    After cocking and safely loading, I push the release lever (I am talking about the latch that must be pushed in order to move the cocking lever back to the stored position) and move the cocking lever back to its stored position, I am talking about briefly depressing the latch slightly before moving the lever, but in very quick sequence. I only need to hold the “latch” for a short time until the catch on the bottom releases and the sliding compression chamber is free to move (unlike the TX200 MkIII, which has three detents that must be cleared – yes, I own one of those also). With that understanding, can you clarify your statement: “On the 460, it matters a lot exactly how you handle that operation because of how the latch is designed.” Even if what I said I do makes no sense to you, please describe what I should do!

    JC

    PS – Another question about how I thought guns I do not own work: BB said: Like all rifles with sliding compression chambers, the 460 has a latch that must be pushed in order to move the cocking lever…
    I thought the Air Arms Pro Sport had a anti bear trap mechanism that was tied to the lever being open. Also I though that rifles like the HW77 did not have an anti beartrap mechanism – hence no latch?

  144. JC,

    As I understand it, if the shooter continues to hold down the latch as the sliding chamber goes forward, the latch can be damaged as the chamber nears to forward position. If a reader knows I’m wrong about this, will you please explain the problem?

    Every airgun is designed differently. I have been using the term anti-beartrap loosely, so as not to confuse. Actually, what the 460 has is not an anti-beartrap in the strictest sense. An anti-beartrap device renders the trigger inoperative. The TX 200 has bot a safety and a sliding chamber catch, but no anti-beartrap. The Gamo Big Cat has the anti-beartrap that disconnects the trigger. Hence you cannot uncock the gun.

    The difference is very subtle and I almost need to show you these things rather than talk about them.

    B.B.

  145. KEVEN

    thanks for the tip on the JBS exacts, I will try the crossmans (OILED) and exacts when i get the 460, and then chose a favorite.

    the weihrauch hw80 you mentioned was only 495 FPS, looks like a nice riffle but I was wanting something with more power.
    –I probably wont need the “950fps” (or 820 fps most likely) but 495 is a little to slow for me I would think.
    thanks for sharing, ill probly post again soon, and yes I will let you guys know how everything goes. I think I will placing my order within the week, unless someone talks me outa it.
    happy shooting.
    ___ DOUG C____

  146. Doug C,

    The Weihrauch HW 80 in .22 caliber is rated at 800+ FPS from the factory. You can tune it stronger or lighter. The dlairgun site is screwed up. Go to their site. Scroll down to the bottom HW 80 (third one under their Weihrauch guns)and you can see an accurate representation of the HW 80 in .22. They say 800 FPS in .22. Pyramyd AIR says 805 FPS in .22. Beeman Blue Book says 810 FPS in .22.

    Remember, I’m not pushing this gun on you but another blogger mentioned that you might consider the R-1. The R-1 is a classic and since dlairgun doesn’t carry the R-1 the Weihrauch HW 80 is a very close match. VERY close. Same heritage. Same great trigger. Similar power. This is a powerful gun.

    kevin

  147. Doug C,

    I re-read my comments and i didn’t make one thing very clear. On the dlairgun site, under weihrauch air guns, scroll down to the hw 80 models. They’ve listed the hw 80 three times. The first in .177 rated at 495 FPS, the second hw 80 is in .22 rated at 405 FPS and the third hw 80 is also in .22 but rated at 800 FPS.

    kevin

  148. hey guys

    please tell me I ordered the right rings.
    I got them and pellets from pyramid.

    Leapers 30mm Rings, Medium, Weaver Mount, See-Thru/B

    going to be using them with

    — RWS 460 magnum .22
    —Leapers UTG 17.1″ compensator mount – (DN-460)

    —Leapers 30mm Swat 3-12X44 full size A.O. (scp3-p3124amdl) scope
    —RWS .22 cleaning kit

    -thanks again guys

  149. dugcarr1,

    I used these rings on the leapers compensator mount I put on a diana 54 when the mount first came out last summer. Wouldn’t stay tight. Butted the cross bolt up against the mounts, blue loctited the threads and it still moved. These are aluminum rings. Be careful in tightening the bolt on the rings when attaching it to the mount. It can be overtorqued very easily.

    After trying these rings I went to a set of b-square adjustable rings (also aluminum) and couldn’t keep them tight. Ultimately, I put a set of steel (warne) rings on the compensator mount on the 54 and they haven’t moved. BTW, the scope I was mounting is the same as you plan on using. The leapers 3-12×44 AO full size swat scope. Great scope for the money but heavy (weight warrants a good set of rings).

    Doug, hope you have better luck with these rings than I did.

    kevin

  150. KEVEN

    I could only find leapers rings on pryamids site.
    and D&L airgun (my Canadian site)
    didnt have the rings you speak of.

    as i already placed the order I will try these rings with lock tight for now. If they fail me I have "steel (warne) rings" in my notes for next time.

    thanks again.

    DOUG C

  151. Doug C,

    Remember to clean the oil/grease off your rail, mount and rings with alcohol before installing everything to insure the best grip possible.

    Use the blue loctite (Loctite 242) or you’ll never get it apart. Pyramyd AIR has this as well. If you buy 3 tins of pellets from Pyramyd AIR your 4th tin is free. Did you check their prices?

    Best of luck. Keep us posted.

    kevin

  152. Doug C,

    One more thing if I may (you may already know this).

    Once you clean everything with denatured alcohol, get it mounted up to your liking (scope is where it should be) and have then loctited your screws…..let the loctite sit to cure for AT LEAST 24 hours in a warm place. I like to let it sit for 48 hours before touching the gun again. Resist the urge to shoot until the loctite cures and it cures slowly.

    kevin

  153. kevin

    D&L airgun and pyramid didnt have ring you speak of.

    and i already placed my order. But if they fail me I will get those.
    and yes i got 4 tins.
    ty for the loctite tips, i will make sure to do just that.

    thanks

    DOUG C

  154. BB,
    I tried your requested test of(gently) holding down the sliding chamber release lever while I closed the cocking lever on my 460. No problem (other than the fact it is awkward to do as the lever is moving forward) until the very end of its travel (just like you said). Then the lever is pushing up and something would probably break if one held it down hard – it is pretty much foolproof, but not idiotproof!

    Doug C,

    When you are using that loctite on ring screws, you only need a single small drop on each of the two screws with the big nut on them (not the smaller screws that attach the scope to the rings). Also resist the urge to tighten those big nuts with a big wrench!

    JC

  155. kevin,,,JC,,,BB,,,anyone smarter then me

    I will getting the RWS 460 soon,
    and cleaning the kit that come with and im trying to learn all I can and get prepared in the mean time.

    do you recommend I get the gun professionally tuned?
    I was looking at this site
    http://www.airguns.citymax.com
    and was wondering if I should order this…??????

    Lubricant Package Deal
    Price: $20.00
    Prod. Code: LP-66Y
    Includes…..
    1-Clear Tar
    1-Heavy Tar
    1-Moly Paste
    and———
    RWS-Diana Mainspring-All
    Price: $20.00
    Prod. Code: GRTMSS
    Fits all GRT kits. RWS, Diana, Original, Umarex
    New 2008
    RWS 34,36,38,40,45,46,48,52,54,300,460 and so on.
    After 3/07 they are now 15 thou tighter to fit more guns.
    .560 x 33 coils-.128 wire
    ————————-
    I will be also getting loctite and
    making that oil mix (forget the name right now) for lead pellets.

    I am making a pellet trap for my crawl space made outa sandwiched carpet pieces and ready rod to keep the lead dust down.

    am i forgetting anything????
    does this order make sense to buy now?
    thanks again guys

    DOUG C

  156. Doug,

    First I have to say that your pellet trap will be inadequate for that rifle. It will eat through the carpet squares fast and soon you’ll have no trap.

    Back in Work War II one of the companies who made the M1 carbine used 10 feet of sand as a bullet stop. Inside a short time they were shooting through the cinderblock wall of the plant and across a street!

    As for the tuneup, put a thousand shots on the gun before you have it done. You need to get used to the gun as it is.

    B.B.

  157. Doug,

    You heard from the authority, B.B. Sound advice. Follow it.

    Let me add my two cents.

    I can feel your excitement and it’s contagious. Thanks. Don’t order a tune kit or spring or lubes, etc. Just shoot your gun.

    Shoot 1,000 pellets through your gun unless you have a major problem. Several critical things happen in your first 1,000 shots with your new airgun. First, you break it in. “Airguns don’t wear out they wear in” is a quote from Tom Gaylord (B.B.). Smooth the gun out by shooting it and see what you really purchased. Then maybe you want to tune it to be more powerful (and more than likely harder to shoot accurately with the harsher firing cycle) or de-tune it to shoot less fps but be even smoother (and more than likely easier to shoot accurately). Or you’ll love it and just shoot it for the rest of your life as is. Second, until you put 1,000 pellets through your gun and get to know it and what you like to do with it (punch holes in paper, shoot spinners or hunt) you won’t know if a tune is for you and if it is what goals you have for a tune.

    The name of the homemade pellet lube is whiscombe honey.

    If you don’t want to buy the sturdy bullet trap your powerful 460 needs (like an outers) search google and build your own bullet/rimfire (not pellet) trap.

    Have fun.

    kevin

  158. bb,,,,,,,kevin

    thanks for the input guys.

    I will get the rifle, use loctite on scope mount rings, and use whiscombe honey with lead pellets.

    well thanks for the tips, I can relax a little more and just shoot my gun.
    I’ll keep you posted.

    DOUG C

  159. Doug C,

    Don’t use whiscombe honey with 100%lead pellets. It’s unnecessary.

    Only use whiscombe honey with pellets with antimony (not 100% lead pellets) like the crossman premiers that can leave deposits in the barrels of high velocity guns like your 460. Lower velocity guns don’t seem to foul as much if at all with these pellets.

    kevin

  161. Doug,

    This is what I’ve used for years and used to make the whiscombe honey:

    http://www.bearmetalclean.com/hoppes-gun-oil-16oz.html

    The only other hoppes oil I saw on the internet, and haven’t seen in person or used is some new product called hoppes elite oil. Don’t know anything about it. Just don’t confuse hoppes #9 gun oil with hoppes #9 gun SOLVENT. If you use any solvent in your gun it will deteriorate your seals. Don’t use it.

    kevin

  162. Doug,

    The product was called Hoppes Gun Oil when I wrote about it. Then some new suits must’ve been hired and now Hoppes has a smorgasboard of oils – some with the confusing No. 9 monniker (shades of the Benjamin Super Streak!).

    Forget Hoppes – use Remoil, until they start getting crazy and then we’ll find something else.

    All you need is a good quality gun oil.

    B.B.

  166. Doug (dugcarr1),

    B.B. didn’t realize you were the same person.

    B.B.’s advice is to use remoil instead of hoppes to make your whiscombe honey concoction. Don’t use remoil by itself to lube your crossman premier (in the cardboard box) pellets.

    kevin

  167. kevin………BB

    when u say remoil,

    do you mean RemDrilube

    the guys at sporting goods store assured me it was the same thing.

    (leaves a dry teflon coating for a smoother , faster firearms action

    DOUG

  168. Doug (dugcarr1),

    They may be the same. The remington site is not very clear. Would suggest you buy remoil not RemDriLube since remoil also comes in a squeeze bottle but RemDriLube only comes in an aerosol can. A squeeze bottle will make it easier for you to measure correct amount when making the whiscombe honey.

    kevin

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